Anyone can see that the response to "God Is Not Mocked" is intended to flame, inflame, and defame, and in no way relates to the discussion. I suggest that we ignore this person, who might be that poor soul with many names, just south of the border. And in the process, we might avert war with our muslim friends!

-- Merle (merle.b@usa.net), October 06, 1998

Answers

I will listen to anyone intelligent and outgoing enough to be worth listening to, provided he (she ?) respects my religion (which I will not argue under any circumstances) and that they do not thrust their faith on me at the point of a sword. There's a lot to be learned from listening, since most everybody out there is an expert on some subject about which I know little.

But, I also reserve the right to disagree with the speaker, and to request the speaker be equally polite to the audience.

On the other hand, I will despise and castigate without mercy someone who has already proven themselves despictable and without shame. (Reserving, as required, the right to grant forgiveness when it is requested.)

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), October 06, 1998.

Oh....WHY do you suppose we all keep getting drawn into these discussions? Can the Islamic poster not be heard here? Is his fervor about his message, his zeal about his faith, any less valuable than anyone else's, just because someone may not agree with his interpretation? Can we start by assuming that every one who posts under these threads has a sincere desire to awaken other people to what they perceive as "salvation" (and then have that Pollyanna attitude shot all to sh*t later)? You know, if this stuff didn't awaken such a response in us, we all wouldn't be rushing here to see what other people wrote and putting in our 2 cents worth, I think. Me, I'm glad, at least, to see people who have some circulation here.

-- Melissa (financed@forbin.com), October 07, 1998.

I was saddened to see that thread revived, even though it was not unexpected. The religious moot interminable debates are peripherally germaine to preparations for Y2K and what comes after. I've been drawn into them in the past, and I've taken the pledge..(after this last missive. The whole my god's better than your god seems to me a juvenile p*ssing contest, and not worth anyone's valuable time.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), October 07, 1998.

Robert, very well expressed, MTE. A dying view here in the UK, people find it difficult to agree to disagree, in fact for some it is an alien concept, you must agree with them otherwise you're not PC or you're an 'IST'. Regarding IQ, the dumbing down of society is a deliberate move by the media, it makes people more susceptible to propaganda of whatever type. I try to use logic in political argument, another concept alien to that world, I can always find a means of answering a point much to everyone's annoyance.

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), October 07, 1998.

Richard,

I don't think the dumming down of the population is an action that is done with forethought. It is just so much easier for John Q. Public to be dumned down by watching mindless television sitcoms or reading about zippergate than to read actual literature or keep up with world events such as Kosovo. The media is just a squirrel trying to get a nut = make profit by selling more advertisements/commercials.

-- Slick (slick@hucheemama.com), October 07, 1998.

Thanks yes you still use ....gate, zippergate was what I was searching for. Regarding dumbing down, I have a copy of Art of 1898 a Studio Fine Art magazine publication of the time. I can't imagine that any current artists could produce work of that quality and variety. I'm not referring to the actual style. 100 years on we cannot equal the achievements of the past, same with furniture, the antique restorers at Sotheby's Sussex use antique tools from prior to the 20C, they were superbly crafted as was the furniture they made. The point I'm trying to make that as we become dumber and dumber that is reflected in the things we produce.

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), October 07, 1998.

The reason they use pre 1900 tools is because the techniques changed about that time. Assembly line mass production and so forth. It is really nice to talk about how great we were in the past, beautiful furniture and etc., till you realize the great bulk of the people, 95% plus, did not have the means to possess these nice things but were instead living under conditions we call extreme poverty. Now we are educating the mass of the people instead of the top 10 or 20 percent, and we stupidly act suprized when the bulk of the population does not turn into geniuses. Well Boo Hoo Hoo. I have never believed the silly fantasy of all persons being born with the same IQ, and I never will. That almost all people can learn to read and write is pretty amazing to me. The stuff about the US having such a high rate of illiteracy is a bunch of crap - you can lie with statistics so easily that I trust none of them that do not include the raw data breakdown. Shucks, my father is counted as a functional illiterate because he never finished the 5th grade (he is 80+), yet reads his Bible and has been a successful farmer/businessman since he was 9 years old!

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), October 07, 1998.

Paul, Relatively the differences in the standard of living between the classes was probably about the same then as now. There should be numerically more geniuses now than 100 years ago since we are educating the whole population (including the 10-20% you say only benefit). I didn't say that people of supposed lesser mental ability are not perfectly capable of doing good jobs. Many vocations do not require much intelligence but other attributes such as hard work and persistence and maybe an aptitude. I'm saying that in spite of the spread of education and increase in population we are dumber now than ever before. I refer to the evidence of achievement in certain fields, then vs now. I always base my opinion on fact rather than rant. The truth is that we can't make quality furniture nowawdays by whatever means, I not trying to say that there is not a place for mass production. We can't produce artists of merit, in spite of the millions of graduates from Art Schools ie the sheer greater number of potential talents. We can't produce decent music of any type, in theory there should be many people with the potential# of being great composers for instance, where are they, at the NYADA (or was that an invention of Fame). This dumbing down is evident everywhere, compare Newspapers now with those even in the 1950s, our tabloids compete to see how few words they can put on the front page, reading the Daily Mirror of the 1990s compared to the 1950s, the latter still had news articles in it. Soon they'll dispense with the words completely since most of their readers will be illiterate. The main cause of dumbing down (in the UK anyway) is the sharp decline in educational standards due to the comprehensive system, lower examination standards, modern teaching methods, lack of discipline in schools etc etc

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), October 08, 1998.

The craftsmen uses a 1900 wood plane simply because it was made to more exacting standards than the 1950s planes they also have hanging up. The 1990s one are complete rubbish, according to the craftsmen there (not my made up opinion but an expert opinion). Wood working tools of the same type are still manufactured nowadays yet they are not of the same high standard. They should be better in theory. In spite of using old tools, the Sotheby's craftsmen made a reproduction Georgian style dining chair to complete a set of 12. It was ok but nothing like the quality of the originals made in 1770.

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), October 08, 1998.

There are plenty of talented woodworkers/furniture makers/cabinet makers around today. My husband and I are two of them (well, I'm more of an apprentice). My husband studied at North Bennet Street in Boston and wasn't allowed to use power tools for 18 months. The furniture he makes is beautiful and has afforded us to work together for the past 7 years. I'm not saying we're rich (no where near it) but we get to do what we want and practice a craft that we love. Just my $0.02 worth...

-- Okum (ws000@aol.com), October 08, 1998.

Okum, Great! keep it up. Maybe you should work for Sotheby's.

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), October 09, 1998.