Controversial tapes?greenspun.com : LUSENET : 1998 Guam Elections : One Thread
What do you all think of the controversial tapes played in the Legislature?
My opinion? King Karl's spin doctors have pretty much won the public relations battle here, at least so far. Consider:
1) Senators Charfauros and Angel have produced documents and tapes that show that Ken Hamlet -- a UOG professor who is far from poor and who is a staunch King Karl supporter -- received a hotel room after Paka using federal funds. Hamlet and King Karl have yet to justify why the government was paying for Hamlet's room or what dire medical condition Hamlet had that gave him preferential treatment over very sick -- and often poor -- people.
2) Instead of being open about the mistake, King Karl's henchmen have instead flooded the talk shows, coached Hamlet, paid for political ads and have done everything in their power to divert the attention from the wrongdoing. If there is no intentional wrongdoing, why aren't they being open about this? It makes one wonder about other possible abuses after Paka.
3) To divert the attention further, they have brilliantly filed a lawsuit against Charfauros, and have succeeded in getting the court to stop Charfauros from talking about the wrongdoing at all. But what grounds are they using? That he violated their privacy? I'll address this in the next point.
4) Radio talk show hosts have idiotically fallen for the the hook and sinker, not to mention the b.s. line, that Charfauros somehow violated Hamlet and Tyrone's privacy. Let's think: Tyrone Taitano is a public official, using a publicly paid for cell phone, making a call on the public's dime, to someone who received public money, talking about how to manipulate public talk shows and media, regarding the public issue of the misuse of public funds. Sound very private to you? Remember, they were talking via a cell phone, which the cell phone companies explicitly warn are NOT very private, given the availability of scanners. I think they've succeeded in tricking the public into outrage about the possibility that private citizens' private conversations MIGHT be recorded -- which, if it is happening, is reprehensible. But Charfauros was bringing into public a very public issue, and he's been told to shut up about it or he'll go to jail.
5) Finally, we see former senator George Bamba, who is tragically dying of AIDS and does deserve our sympathy, in a newspaper ad today talking about forming an organization for government accountability, because of the accusations made against him. With all due respect to the good man, I think he's either missed the point or is being used by King Karl, because his ad is very ironic. Government accountability? That's exactly what people have been asking for! If King Karl would be a little more open, perhaps his enemies wouldn't resort to recording cell phone conversations. And again with all due respect, Bamba is not the one being attacked -- it's Hamlet, who never had any dire medical condition, who is under fire. Bamba is being used as a diversion.
-- Lighthouse Keeper (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 30, 1998
Illegal is illegal is illegal.
If you start to violate peoples' rights now, where does it end?
Don't open this pandoras box for you will not like the results.
You have deleted this post 2 times so far. Why are you soo scared. Maybe your termination was called for. You say that Carl is regulating forums yet it is you that is regulating. Are you soo scared to keep this message here?
-- laus Deo (email@example.com), October 22, 1998.
George Bamba has AIDS? I heard he REALLY got the room because it was his wife's birthday or anniversary? Any truth to that? Besides, I notice most former senators are rich. Could he afford his own damn room?
-- Chuck (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 30, 1998.
Lighthouse, you are some kinda conspiracy theorist, aren't you?!
There's no public relations battle -- it is genuine people reacting to the outragous playing of those *illegal* tapes by Barfarous. He attacked George Bamba, who is *dying* for goodness sakes!!!!
If Ken Hamlet, an esteemed *professor* at UOG, were really ripping us off, then why did FEMA, a federal agency with no relation to Gutiererz, pay for his hotel? Come on, lighthouse. You know there is nothing here. Your probably getting paid by Joe ada or Mark Barfous or something, huh?
You said they suing Barfarous just to divert attention, but you neglect the fact that Barfauros played *illegal* tapes and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, just like anyone else. Is Barfous so special?
You sadi that they were making a public call using public celphone, well did you stop to think that they thought they were in private and that *illegally* taping their conversation that was private is not good thing nomatter what you try to say, lighthouse.
Try not to make me Barf with all your "reasoning"!!!!!
-- Rachel Bautista (email@example.com), October 01, 1998.
Uh ... Rachel,
Actualley, FEMA turned down payeing of the room.
I use to allways hear Ken Hamlick on the radio, and boy he used to call TOm Ada a liar look whose lieing now huh skipper?/ I saw Ken Hamlick and the lawyere guy Pete Schro on the tv news lastnite. what a georgous pair
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 01, 1998.
it was always a good fit, lighthouse. the afternoon guy on 57 is a privacy-rights advocate, and this issue just fell right into his lapp.
john andersonn i don't know about. maybe 57 isn't pro-gutierrez. maybe there's just so pro=establishment. your'e more likely to see haily's comet than to hear one of them ask a tough question. touchy=feeling.
would it suprirse you to know that
-- (email@example.com), October 02, 1998.
I wish I were as interesting as a conspiracy theorist. What I am is a citizen in a democracy, with the obligation to speak out when I see wrongdoing. I take that obligation seriously, and while I'm using a pseudonym, I know that just by writing posts on the Net I'm putting myself in danger. It's worth the risk.
I agree that there are genuine people reacting to the playing of the tapes, but this is exactly because the King Karl spin doctors are succeeding, kicking butt, at this public relations game. They've succeeded in getting people angry at the tapes so they can forget about the misspending of federal funds.
George Bamba -- I'll say this once again -- was not being attacked after the tapes were being played, Ken Hamlet was. Bamba is yet another diversion. The food stamp allegation is another diversion. The lawsuit is a fourth diversion. Doesn't it seem weird that King Karl has to spin out four diversion in order to keep people from looking at his Paka spending, rather than come out openly with an open accounting of the Paka spending? It does to me. But then I guess you're going to just dismiss me as a conspiracy theorist, instead of looking at the facts. Typical.
And your absurd allegation that Charfauros or Joe Ada is paying me is another attack on me, a dismissal of my points, without really addressing the misspending of Paka funds. I'm being paid by Karl, or actually by the taxpayers, but Karl doesn't know who I am. Frankly, I don't really give a damn if Karl finds out who I am anymore. I'm getting a little sick of this government. BTW, there's no money in my department for any of the needed programs -- which hotel rooms did you spend all the public funds on, Karl?
Charfauros played tapes that seem illegal to many people, but again, it was a public official using a publicly-paid-for cel phone on the public's dime to talk to someone who received public funds about the issue of misspending those public funds. I think Charfauros was talking about a public issue on the floor of the Legislature, an issue that needed to be addressed and really still needs to be addressed. Karl has done everything but address that issue.
Just because these two people "thought they were in private" doesn't mean that we should let them get away with misspending public funds and lying about it to us all. I'd rather play some tapes of a conversation that should have been public than keep it hush hush for any longer. Because really, aren't we forgetting that this conversation between Tyrone and Hamlet is a discussion that should have been in a public forum, but because they refused to address it publicly, Charfauros was forced to use tapes that someone gave to him? Isn't that a more important issue? It is to me.
You state: "Try not to make me Barf with all your "reasoning"!!!!!"
I'm sorry you've given up on reasoning so quickly, Rachel. I suggest giving it a second chance. We might all benefit from it.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 02, 1998.
Another thing to remember is that there was NO DENIAL from the governor that federal funds were misspent. Skipper (Hamlet) claimed it was "probably a mistake" and that to even suggest otherwise was libel. The tapes give strong evidence that it was not a mistake and that the governor's people were trying to cover it up.
RTT Yeah you know me
-- RTT (Ratt@tat.tat), October 02, 1998.
How have you been? What is your take on the controversial taping and divulging of said cellular conversations on the floor of the Legislature?
The Tapes are now a matter of public record, as Mr. Lighthousekeeping indicated. Now the true test of strength and independence of local media comes.
If you think in terms of Friendly and Hostile media on the island of Guam, the media outelts are easy to classify.
Friendly K57 KUAM MARIANAS VARIETY
As the election draws near, voters on Guam are perhaps the least- informed electorate in Guam's history. A combination of political influence and interference exists in the media, and voters are not getting an accurate picture of how life on Guam really is.
The last 4 years have been years of wage stagnation for the working class.
The cost of living has skyrocketed in the last 4 years. Power and water bills have gone up. GovGuam service fees have increased across the board. The last 4 years have been very expensive for the working class.
Guam's unemployment rate is at an all-time high.
DOA estimates only Thirty Percent of Paka purchases will be reimbursed by FEMA. At a time when many of us were reeling, money was being blown like the President.
-- The Guam News (email@example.com), October 03, 1998.
Guamnews, I've been well. Thanks for asking. As I said I think the tapes clearly show that Hamlet's claim that "they probably thought [his] daughter still lived with [him]" is bovine excremate. Its amazing how the media and 98ers like Myk Powell and Jon Anderson just ignore the blatant corruption of this administration and the public just swallows it like Monica Lewinsky. I'm not saying that the ends jusity the means but are we, as citizens, just supposed to forget what we heard? I have to commend the governer and his people for the job they've done hiding the issue. I guess we're really as dumb as they think we are.
-- RTT (Ratt@tat.tat), October 04, 1998.
I believe that Mark's intention when he played the tape is to convey to the public the message that the current governor is crooked and should be removed from the governorship. The message when received by the voters will influence how they vote in the general election for governor. This is not between Charfauros and Hamlet. It's between the people of Guam that have been cheated and the governor. Mark was acting in his position as an elected public official trying to expose corruption, not as a private citizen. This law about obtaining permission to record conversation is a joke in this issue. It shouldn't apply when corruption in government is suspected. It was used just to cloud the issue and divert attention away from the main issue of suspected corruption.
-- Che'lu (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 08, 1998.
The clowns at the AG's Office got all dressed up for a big conference saying they were going to crack down on the evil person who violated these poor public officials' privacy.
If the AG's Office was free of politics, then we would have seen the AG gove the tapes to a Grand Jury so an indictment could be handed down for the misuse of federal funds.
There should be a separation of the issues.
Myk Powell is so far bent on the privacy side of the issue he's taken to giggling like a girl when callers don't agree with him. Powell also throws in a very sarcastic "You're absolutely right."
Then there's the issue of the phone bank.
If we were any of those public officials, we would be very hesitant to be seen or heard on the news. Embarrassing. Caught on tape. True colors exposed.
-- The Guam News (email@example.com), October 08, 1998.
You can't go busting down people's doors to hope you find them breaking the law. Yes, I have heard the tape, and Yes like John Anderson and Mike Powell are right, there's NOTHING on them. You guys all accuse The Honorable Carl TC Gutierrez of being a dictator, but it's you who wants to live like Mussolini!
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 11, 1998.
danlg You are a dumbo like all the 98ers. Mike Powell said that what Gutierrez did was the called "spin". The reason there is nothing wrong with this is because President Clinton is the master of this art. Spin means you spin the story around to make yourself look good when something bad happens. Just because someone jumps off a cliff, are you gonna follow? Mike Powell n Jon Anderson are stupid haoles who believe in the American way. Well if you believe them, that's good because I'm sure the US is benefiting from all the spins on Monica Lewisky, Paula Jones, and Whitewater
-- fred fafa (email@example.com), October 12, 1998.
Did you see Fred Black, US Attorney say that ANYONE rebroadcasting those tapes was guilty of a crime... YES, Even Marky Barfauros. That seemed pretty clear to me. And, I heard most of that session, there wasn't much on those tapes that every other administration didn't do. Don't tell me that Marky Barfauros and David Lujan, and Tony Sanchez and Tony LG and all those guys don't have phone banks, cause if you try to pull that one, I'm not a stupid Chamorro like you'd want me to be. Mark Forbes used to line up everyone in his office at 6:30 in the morning to call in the phone banks, and half the voices during the primary were the private secretaries and Chiefs of staff to the senators -- people like Lou LG's private secretary Liza Cipollone; Angel's chief of staff Harold Cruz; Benny Rosalin; Angel's father (that's stopped because Angel told his dad to jump off a cliff, hah... what's that about peas in a pod?).... COME ON PEOPLE... take off the rose colored glasses. Mark Charfauros thinks us Chamorros are going to be upset because the administration is talking politics ??! I'd like to listen in on one of their conversations.. and don't be too sure someone isn't !
-- Spotlight (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 13, 1998.
Once again, I think you're missing the point -- the tapes have Tyrone, Hamlet and Ginger admitting to illegally spending federal funds. No one has denied that, or addressed this crime. Instead, they do everything in their power to distract us from this fact (like you're doing).
Spotlight, if you really want to debate, address the point at hand: that federal funds were misspent on Hamlet, and that this is proven, and that no one is denying this. Do you have an answer? Because King Karl, to date, doesn't have an answer.
But I expect you instead to talk about some other issue. Prove me wrong.
-- Lighthouse Keeper (email@example.com), October 13, 1998.
"Don't be so sure someone isn't listening in on your phone calls?"
Are you party to wire-tapping? Of course Bob Kelley, Carl's all-star techno-geek with his gold-chain wearing self ($77,000 a year) could probably just eavesdrop your phone in the back room at GTA in Harmon. Now that it's digital, all you gotta do is punch in a number and it comes out of a pair of speakers in that back room. Check it out.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 15, 1998.
Guam News states: ******* "Don't be so sure someone isn't listening in on your phone calls?"
Are you party to wire-tapping? Of course Bob Kelley, Carl's all-star techno-geek with his gold-chain wearing self ($77,000 a year) could probably just eavesdrop your phone in the back room at GTA in Harmon. Now that it's digital, all you gotta do is punch in a number and it comes out of a pair of speakers in that back room. Check it out. *****
This is very close to libel. But since it is against me, "Bob Kelley" I doubt if lighthouse would notice. Of course I have the knowledge to intercept private conversations. However, our society has made this act unlawful, and I choose to obey the law. Guam News, not every one enjoys your lack of ethical standards. I will not deliberately violate the law like two senators and their coconspirators.
I have not been a party to any illegal interception of wire line or cellular calls. And if I have knowledge of any illegal activity, I will pursue full civil remedies and criminal charges regardless of who it is or who they are intercepting.
If Guam is to ever be an information center and telecommunications center, we must assure the investors we abide by the laws relating to communications privacy. We are not a third world society regardless of what others may think.
If any one on this forum has a shred of evidence that I have been a party (not a victim) to any illegal telephone interceptions, prove it!
The most intelligent comment so far on this subject has been from legaltruth!!
PS I am sure glad my wife is not reading this, she will think I am hiding 'bout $3,000 a year from her. And my 2 baht chain, sir, was a Christmas gift from my wife.. with money she earned as an elementary school librarian. (I doubt if I will post often to this forum, considering what it has degraded to, like criticizing a gift from my wife! I did have to defend myself however.)
Note: In private practice as a consultant, I can make more income then I receive from the Government of Guam.. with less criticism from malcontents. Instead, I want to finish a few projects that are important for Guam.
PSS lighthouse, why do you want to work for the Government of Guam? What have you done the last four years to make this island a better place to live? What are you goals as a government worker to improve our island? I am sure you are not in a responsible government position just for a paycheck!
-- Robert (Bob) Kelley (email@example.com), October 15, 1998.
So much time and money is spent to prevent making public the contents of the tape that contains "nothing ???".
It's so sad knowing that the illegal taping of a conversation of a ploy to hide a wrongdoing is more important in the eyes of the media than the fact that FEMA funds were misused by direction of our highest government official. The governor must have hpynotic powers.
-- Che'lu (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 15, 1998.
We have a duty as elected officials to abide by the laws and the acts that Mark Charfauros and Angel Santos committed are legally questionable? Yet they continue to act like political pawns of Joe Ada. These actions may be considered misfeasance and misleading the public to obtain a political objective. By far it seems that most of the independents understand and are not buying. Mauleg Mohon...Two wrongs do not make a right and the ends to do not justify the means... you must stay away from sins.
-- Mauleg Mohon (Misfeasence@kuentos.net), October 16, 1998.
We weren't accusing you of doing it, we were responding to an earlier post. Someone wrote that quote, not us Mr Kelley.
Does GTA have the technological means to listen in on phone calls or trace emails? Does GTA have a back room with speakers?
No one is disputing the illegality of the recording, but at the same time we must consider the wrongs you were allegedly a part of. Justice for all. The federal funds were definitely misspent in that instance. And with the Department of Administration estimating only 30% of what the administration bought post-Paka will be reimbursed by FEMA it's even more worrisome. Only Thirty Percent? That opens the door for the public to wonder if federal funds were misspent in other instances too. We also understand $10 Million was taken from the school bond and used for the junk car removal contract(Which coincidentally went to a Port Authority Administrator). DOA thinks FEMA won't pay for it.
Could you clear these issues up for us?
We also got a letter by Agle Satnos that was in the Legislative Record as a Public Document that described the content of the tapes. One of them alleges Mr Kelley stuffs internet polls?
Could you also clear up whether or not GovGuam employees vote on those polls at Cybermag while using Government vehicles on the clock?
We appreciate your efforts to assist us in being informed. So hard to get information with all the "media control and bias" so close to the election.
Dangkolo Na Si Yuos Maase
-- (email@example.com), October 16, 1998.
Thank you for your interest in my goals and my job. However, I am not running for office and don't have to debate my performance and goals in public. I work very hard at my job and am proud of what I do, but I am discouraged because of all the wrongdoing I see around me. I've seen coworkers speak up, only to be threatened by managers and directors. It doesn't exactly foster an atmosphere of open discussion of public issues.
You correctly state that Guam New's statement about you is very nearly libelous. However, it is not libelous because according to you, it is true. He says you could listen to phone conversations, and you said yourself that you have this capability. You've denied doing it, and I believe you. If anyone makes a false statement about you, and I don't remove it, please let me know. I will gladly enforce the same standards I've used on statements made about other people.
Thank you for clearing things up for us. Do have responses to the other questions directed at you?
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 16, 1998.
Could you please ask Ginger Cruz to tell us a little more about her "phone crew"?
Also, you mentioned our quotation of your salary was off. Well it was. We forgot to adjust for the $16,000 in benefits you recieved according to a second MOU between GTA and The Governor's Office. PLease correct us if that Government document signed by Carl Gutierrez is incorrect.
$74,000 $16,000 = $90,000
Wow, that's how much Tommy Okada made at Med Referral Office. By the way, Mr Kelleye, you incorrectly referred to us as sir. We are in fact a sir/mam/sir combination.
How do you justify paying Evelynn $65,000. How do you justify paying your brother $68,000 to sit on the Komitea Para Tiyan. We look at Tiyan and we see what a wonderful job they're doing. We noticed you are on the mailing list, so please respond. Also, why did you have a cameraman at the KAL crash? Have you no shame?
Two people who pay your salary and two people who are upset at your lac of tact when it comes to spending PUBLIC money.
-- (email@example.com), October 16, 1998.
I will try to answer a few of the questions of Birthdayboy and lighthouse. I dont intend to get sucked into a flame war (I personally feel this is what Guamnews is trying to do, I may be wrong but that is MY instinct) so please respect my wish that I occasionally will comment if I have the time and I feel my comments will enlighten the forum. Finally, in this Forum, I only speak for Bob Kelley!
I was asked if GTA can listen to phone calls. Of Course! They need to for service quality adjustments. As a satellite consultant, I have listened to many conversations over the years. Most communications technicians and engineers find them selves in that position. The Federal Law allows this for quality purposes. It is to allow adjustments to "fine tune" the circuit. But I do NOT disclose what I hear. (Usually it was in a foreign language that I could not understand). Also, unless actively servicing the equipment, it is not appropriate to just listen to someones conversations. Is this ability ever abused? By some people. Telephone companies try to weed this type of person out. Title 18, section 2511 "Electronic Communications Privacy Act" (ECPA) says in part:
(2)(a)(i) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for an operator of a switchboard, or an officer, employee, or agent of a provider of wire or electronic communication service, whose facilities are used in the transmission of a wire or electronic communication, to intercept, disclose, or use that communication in the normal course of his employment while engaged in any activity which is a necessary incident to the rendition of his service or to the protection of the rights or property of the provider of that service, except that a provider of wire communication service to the public shall not utilize service observing or random monitoring except for mechanical or service quality control checks.
The ECPA goes on to say:
(3)(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a person or entity providing an electronic communication service to the public shall not intentionally divulge the contents of any communication (other than one to such person or entity, or an agent thereof) while in transmission on that service to any person or entity other than an addressee or intended recipient of such communication or an agent of such addressee or intended recipient. (b) A person or entity providing electronic communication service to the public may divulge the contents of any such communication - (i) as otherwise authorized in section 2511(2)(a) or 2517 of this title; (ii) with the lawful consent of the originator or any addressee or intended recipient of such communication; (iii) to a person employed or authorized, or whose facilities are used, to forward such communication to its destination; or (iv) which were inadvertently obtained by the service provider and which appear to pertain to the commission of a crime, if such divulgence is made to a law enforcement agency. (4)(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection or in subsection (5), whoever violates subsection (1) of this section shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
NOTE: EPCA applies to Wireline Cellular, E-Mails and all other electronic communications.
As we sometimes hear on the Myk Powel Show "Stupid People Turning to a Life of Crime", Some people will abuse the capability. They usually are loud mouths and will brag about what they hear (after all, what good is a juicy tid-bit learned by illegal/inappropriate monitoring if one keeps it to him self, and if he does, their is no divulgence). For most communications companies this is cause for immediate dismissal not counting the criminal penalties mentioned above. We must depend upon the integrity and honesty of our communications workers to prevent abuses.
Regarding E-Mail tracing. That is quite a bit more difficult. With the World Wide Web, any one can go to almost any host under an assumed name and send an E-Mail. In addition their are anonymous remailers available. If a person has a psudo name on a remote host, the E-mail could be traced but one would first have to identify the host, trace how the person enters the host, trap the incoming call during a session form a network telephone entry point (That could be through several layers of hosts) and trace the number. Most competent computer users could make a trace very difficult and time consuming. (Some of us, with nothing to hide, use easy to trace mail names "rkelley" me, "ns.gov" my POP Mail Host "gu" Guam.. location or domain of my host.)
If I wanted to determine an E-Mail sender, I would just try to find what he/she left as evidence. What is in public file of the E-Mail host. (Real Name, City, State, Phone Number etc.)
Regarding the costs and reimbursement of Paka, I really cannot comment very much. The Government of Guam and FEMA are currently reviewing the expenditures. I would caution everyone not to believe everything they read or hear in the media (this goes for all sides of this forum.) I truly believe when all accounts are settled, Guam will have done very well. The characterization of "misspent" should not be utilized in a general manner. Taking some comments, out of context of an illegally obtained recording, does not make a conspiracy (except in the minds of a few.) I have justified to FEMA any expenditures that I have approved. I have and will cooperate with any questions they have. For me to use this forum to justify a matter between the Government of Guam and FEMA would not be appropriate. The final results will be available to anyone interested.
I really cannot legally comment on Sen. Santos letter describing the content of the tapes. To do so would cross the very line I believe must be protected regarding privacy for everyone. That includes all members of this forum.
My employees at Civil Defense and I have not really had time to play in the Cybermag polls. (I did vote ONCE on Sunday, two weeks ago at the Guam Premium Outlets.) Most of my employees are involved in the fire at Malijloj Hard fill this week. I do allow employees time during the day to exercise their political voices. The same rules apply to any employee supporting 98 as apply to employees supporting any other candidate. They must take leave. If they work through the lunch hour, they may leave the office one hour early.
Lighthouse, you may not be running for office, but neither am I. I do feel that whether one is elected or appointed to a government job, he IS accountable to the people of Guam for what he does and fails to do. I did not mean this as a set up. But you and everyone else in this forum who are government employees calling for accountability, should examine their own hearts. I pray for the wisdom to know when I should leave the government. I dont want to leave just to go after more money and I dont just want to hang around if I am not a contribution. I ask my staff to examine at the end of each day, if they have contributed their share to the people of Guam. Did the people of Guam get their moneys worth? The people of Guam should expect no less.
I support the reelection of Carl because I have seen the improvements made with his leadership. I will never pretend that their were no mistakes in the executive branch during the last four years. But at least now Guam has a plan (which has been criticized by other on this forum) with empowered business and community leaders to show the way into the next century.
In a few of the areas I have been involved in:
We have taken a Motorola Radio system that was unusable and in litigation during the previous administration and developed a good working relationship with the vendor and reengineered the system so that our police, fire fighters and EMTs have a usable, dependable and reliable communications system (remember, SmartNet in the headlines almost as much as load-shedding in 94). We now have an area code to make calling Guam easier, we have domestic rates saving millions of dollars a year, free 800 service and E-Rates for schools and libraries. I know that the telephone changes would not have happened without the support of Carl because it was the empowerment and support by him that gave me the clout in Washington to help gain these benefits despite both local long distance company (as well as Canada and AT&T) and legislative opposition. I know that Governor Ada choose not to move forward on making Guam a domestic point.
I think Governor Joe Ada served the people of Guam well for eight years. I respect him and what he has done for Guam over many years. I also believe Carl has what it takes for the next four years. Carl is the right man to lead us now.
Directors and managers are not perfect! Many of the "hostile" environments that lighthouse refers to are perpetuated by classified employees. At least those of us appointed from a civilian job, have only had a few years to become governmentalized! The worked who have been around for 25 years and become managers wield more influence then many of the directors.
As I said in the beginning, I dont intend to be here a lot because I am busy. I will not get into slamming others. Treat others as you would want to be treated. After the election, we must all work together if Guam is going to prosper.
I must leave for the Malijloj Command Post to help "put out fires." (Isnt that what I have been accused of doing for the last year
). If anyone wants to contact me, my E-Mail is firstname.lastname@example.org and my Government Cell Number is 482-4262 and my personnel Cell number is 688-4262. (remember, if you call me it is being monitored and taped!)
-- Bob Kelley (email@example.com), October 16, 1998.
Thank you for the excellent response. It was well written and if I didn't have the information I have, I would support you for elected office (but not Karl). I never accused you of illegally listening to phone calls, so I won't respond to that part of your post. I do have a few points to make, if I may:
* You won't comment about the FEMA funds spent on Hamlet because it is currently a matter between FEMA and GovGuam. However, information has been made public (documents and tapes) that seem to show that Hamlet had no justification for getting preferential treatment -- a hotel room instead of liheng ta. If these charges are indeed false, providing correct information to the public would in now way jeopardize the FEMA negotiations. It would be information FEMA would have anyway, and correct and justifiable information made public could do no harm. The only reason to hide the justification is if the justification you've given FEMA can be easily shot down in public.
Why hasn't the policy of not publicly disclosing FEMA justifications been followed in the past? When ongoing negotiations were ongoing with FEMA about govt vehicles, you and ginger and ron taitano of GPD all were in the media justifying why the vehicles were reasonable typhoon expenses. (Ginger's reason: The governor's Eddie Bauer Limited Edition Ford Expedition was "the least expensive vehicle of its kind." Also, according to her statements to the media, "The governor needed a vehicle that fits his personality."
You and Ginger have both publicly disclosed FEMA justifications in the past. Neither of you will do so now, in the obviously unjustifiable case of Ken Hamlet.
* Your statements about employees not having the time to play in the Cybermag polls ... it was a nice dance around the issue, but you didn't flatly deny that dozens of government employees are going en masse to Computerland to vote for exactly the same candidates. It may not have been on government time, or done by you yourself, but it was witnessed by a lot of people. You haven't answered that -- you've sidestepped it.
* Bob, you correctly state that anyone with a government job is accountable to the people of Guam. I certainly am. I know that I do a good job and exceed the goals of my job. I would gladly have someone audit or examine my performance. But this is an election forum. I have no responsibility to disclose what my job is or how or why I do it. The governor and other candidates have the responsibility to do so, at least in some public forum, and yet Karl has avoided doing so. He has manipulated and controlled the media so that he doesn't have to be accountable to the people of Guam.
You, on the other hand, don't have to respond in an elections forum, but I'm glad that you have. You are fair game, though, in this forum because you are a member of the governor's management team, and if your performance is failing or you are committing illegal or unethical acts (I'm not implying that you are doing any of this), then the governor has to account for that.
* Your statements that Karl has what it takes for the next four years and that he's made improvements in the government are fair, but far too broad. They cannot be criticized. Every governor makes some improvements, but how much damage have they done? Karl has done much.
Be more specific. What has Karl done to improve Guam, why is he the man to lead us in the next four years? And why won't he answer any of the documented or witnessed charges against him? Why does he have to control the media (see the earlier threads) and why does he have his lackeys attack people who expose what is going on in his government? (see 98 sins of Karl, challenge to 98 supporters, and other threads for specifics) None of these questions are being answered.
* Bob states: "Directors and managers are not perfect! Many of the "hostile" environments that lighthouse refers to are perpetuated by classified employees."
These are true statements. But the more accurate true statement is that Karl fosters an environment of intimidation and directors are pressured to do the same to keep information from coming out. Bob, you KNOW this is true. We are both in the government, and we both know what goes on. If you deny what I am saying here, I will lose all respect for you. Anyone who has worked with Karl knows what I'm talking about, but too many of the people close to him have benefitted from fat jobs or contracts to break out of the cycle of intimidation.
I agree that you should treat others as you would want to be treated. I hope I've treated you with respect, and I've tried to treat others with the same respect. I have also respectfully, justifiably, and rationally challenged and criticized Karl's actions, and I have asked for answers. I have gotten none, not even from you (no answer on the Paka/Hamlet/hotel issue). I have a list of questions, with no real answers. Only attacks and diversions (from others in this forum) and evasions (from you). I say that respectfully, because I respect how you've conducted yourself here, but I think it's a justified criticism.
Thank you for participating in this forum, and keep up the good work at Malojloj. Please come back, or encourage those who can provide answers to come back.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 17, 1998.
You are correct, this administration did discuss vehicle reimbursement. GovGuam was the applicant, and as the applicant for services was in a position to comment. You have asked me to comment on specifics of an individual applicant. This is morally, ethically and legally wrong!
I can assure you that if anyone reports a misuse of disaster aid to the Governors Fraud Waste and Abuse Hotline or to FEMA it will be investigated. BOTH the party being investigated and the party complaining will be confidential. I will not be a party to discussing with this forum or the media an investigation of any individuals alleged misconduct. I know not everyone will agree with me. I also know that I will continue to do what is correct .
A few general statements though:
The Hilton hotel rooms rented by the Governors office were all for periods before La Hingta opened. The Government did get a special rate for the Hilton and other hotels.
Before any party is found liable for fraud, the intent will have to be proven.
There are several programs for housing and the FEMA regulations do have a provision for temporary hotels while a primary residence is being repaired. There were payments made for applicants in this category.
If you check the ownership and management of Kuentos, it is financed by Mr. Lee of the Bunny Hardware and Market group. The three principal are Paul Carson, Patrick Kelly and John Rhee, three nice computer "geeks". Please explain the Calvo connection!
UMDA and Guam Cable merged with an UMDA buyout. That has been in the works for years! It was a business decision. Most cable companies do NOT do news. It does not make money in this market. I would like to start a TV News service, but I have no investors willing to put up the capital do to the high risks and long payback.
I have always stated I would rather live near a properly run incinerator then a landfill! The key is to use technology to form an integrated solid waste plan. Some of the same people who opposed the incinerator supported Plasma Reduction. This has never been done in an EPA approved commercial setting in the USA! Do not forget, the incinerator contract was signed under Ada. Now the government must pay the damages to the owner of the permit.
I am not even going to get into personal allegations of private misconduct of any candidate. All the candidates for Governor had allegations made including Carl and Joe. I dont have time for gossip.
Many political ads have people paid in them! And relatives! And file footage. SO WHAT! Carl didnt approve of his picture being used in a Tom and Lou ad but he didnt cry about it!
Power lines have been put up by all governors. Please document why you think the power extensions and driveways are illegal. I am not asking you to approve of the policy, you can disagree. But I dont think a court has ruled unless I missed it.
Most members of the current school board support Carl. They can let go of the past and move forward, why cant you?
Vision 2001 is a plan. No previous administration had a plan. Please tell me what part of the Vision you disagree with. I know the legislature opposed Guam becoming a domestic telecommunications point (as passed by their resolution) so I assume they would have opposed many other parts of it. I would rather have a governor who leads and gets the businesses and the community involved in a positive plan for our island rather then wait for a politically gridlocked legislature to act!
Regarding the Cybermag polls, I am sure that many of my choices in the poll are similar to other Government employees. I really feel bad I can only vote for 15 this time. There are more then 15 good candidates. It is well known that I support some members of both parties. I will not support someone, who in my mind and heart, promulgates evil and hate and/or advocates the breaking of our laws.
Lighthouse Keeper, you said "But this is an election forum. I have no responsibility to disclose what my job is or how or why I do it. The governor and other candidates have the responsibility to do so, at least in some public forum, and yet Karl has avoided doing so."
Well "shucky darn"! I go to village meetings, debates and other forums. Carl has not avoided disclosing his job performance. Lighthouse Keeper, you and the other ABCers just dont agree with him.
Regarding the manipulation and control of the media. I find it ironic both sides are paranoid!
Lighthouse Keeper, you are correct that I do not need to participate in this forum. Here I am spending two hours on Sunday responding instead of with my family. And I doubt that I have really affected anyones thinking.
Lighthouse Keeper, I have been a friend of Carl and his family for over twenty years. He has trusted me and I trust him. I will not betray my friendship to complain about what I may not like in government. It is well known that I have publicly taken some stands that were unpopular with a few people in the administration. But Carl stood by me! I do not have the knowledge to respond every allegation in this forum. I dont have the staff nor the mandate to be an investigator. I will respond to any area I have personal responsibility if my response is appropriate (I wont violate privacy or hamper ongoing investigations.)
Finally, Lighthouse Keeper, you have been respectful in you letters to me. More so then many in this forum. I wish you could trust me enough we could go have a beer and debate in person. I believe many of your concerns are valid. I also believe that many of your preconceptions have distorted your thinking (you probably think the same of me!!) We both know who each other is going to vote for in this election. Afterwards, our community must pull together.
-- Bob Kelley (email@example.com), October 17, 1998.
I respect you Mr. Bob Kelly you are a good man. As for you lighthouse if you can't back it up talking doesn't mean a thing.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 18, 1998.
I would sound just as good if I was making as much money as Kelly was making!
I would do ANYTHING for that job!
74,000 plus 16,000 in benefits! I would LIE for my boss!
-- (email@example.com), October 18, 1998.
I appreciate that you've taken the time and effort to post to this forum, but I have to respectfully say that I find your answers very lacking. They avoid the issue, they don't address the real wrongs, and they are misleading. If I may:
* You state that discussing the specifics of an individual FEMA applicant would be morally, ethically and legally wrong. My reply is that this has never stopped this administration so far.
Now that it is convenient to be ethical, this administration is using that to avoid justifying the misuse of FEMA funds on Hamlet. As far as I know, GovGuam is the applicant for this money -- FEMA is reimbursing GovGuam, not Hamlet. I could be wrong. But either way, I recall GovGuam officials calling the talk shows after the hotel/hamlet issue was made public, justifying why he was given the room. Now that it is clear that FEMA won't pay the money, you won't give us a justification.
The governor's Fraud Waste and Abuse Hotline is a joke. I personally know that none of the things on that hotline that relate to the governor are seriously investigated -- calling the hotline is pretty much tipping the governor off that you're on to him. As for reporting it to FEMA, I think I read in the PDN that FEMA already said it wouldn't pay for an expense like Hamlet's.
You state: "I will not be a party to discussing with this forum or the media an investigation of any individuals alleged misconduct. I know not everyone will agree with me. I also know that I will continue to do what is correct."
It's not an individual's alleged misconduct that is at issue here. It is GovGuam and the administration's misconduct that is the issue. Karl gave a room to his buddy even though his buddy wasn't sick. Do what is correct and justify that to the public, and to all the sick people who didn't get hotel rooms.
* You also ask for us to explain the Kalvo connection with Kuentos. No one is saying the Kalvos own Kuentos. We're saying that the Kalvos threatened Kuentos because of things said about them on the Kuentos elections forum, so Kuentos had to shut the forum down. It was another example of the Karl/Kalvo control over public forums. I'm sure Karl pulled a few strings himself to get the forum closed down.
* You state that most cable companies do not do news. And yet Guam Cable TV did do news. And when it got close to the elections and Cable News did stories that showed what Karl was doing, Karl had his UMDA buy out Cable and shut the news down. Your answer is lacking.
* You state: "I have always stated I would rather live near a properly run incinerator then a landfill! The key is to use technology to form an integrated solid waste plan."
The key, actually, is "properly run incinerator". This is an oxymoron. Please state in which communities in the United States there are properly run incinerators. Communities all over the U.S. not only suffer in health from incinerators, but they pay millions and millions more than they agreed to.
And are we going to trust our government to properly run this incinerator, when the consequences of failure are deadly? The same government that has run Ordot landfill, and cannot close the landfill to save our lives? What is Karl's excuse for not closing Ordot? This is the same government that collects our trash. The same government that runs our failing schools. The same government that has run the incredibly unsuccessful War on Ice campaign. Thank you very much, but I'll pass on giving the government something deadly to run properly.
* In reply to comments that Karl's ads with Angel Santos, Patty Garrido and Ron Teehan are deceptive, you state: "Many political ads have people paid in them! And relatives! And file footage. SO WHAT! Carl didnt approve of his picture being used in a Tom and Lou ad but he didnt cry about it!"
No, Karl isn't crying, he's laughing at all of us for being such fools. Such fools that we believe that Angel Santos supports him, based on a two-year-old file clip. Such fools that we believe that Patty Garrido and Ron Teehan, paid by Karl, are just "Chamorro rights activists".
The difference, Bob, is that Karl's ad with Angel's footage was deceptive. Tom and Lou's picture of Karl was used in an ad that attacked Karl's record. In no way did the Tom and Lou ad make it seem like Karl was supporting them.
* You state: "Power lines have been put up by all governors. Please document why you think the power extensions and driveways are illegal."
Karl's kampaign tactics are obvious to everyone. Some people have decided to look the other way. Karl may be able to say that hooking up a power extension is legal, and that paving a private driveway after someone declares it a "public right of way" is legal. But when dozens and dozens of private driveways are paved at the same time, and dozens and dozens of free power hookups are done at the same time, all before election year, it's a little too obvious. Individual hookups and driveways may be legal, but using taxpayer money to do hundreds of such projects just to buy votes is extremely unethical. It seems to be working, though.
* You state: "Most members of the current school board support Carl. They can let go of the past and move forward, why cant you?"
And yet I just saw an ad where Madeleine is telling us not to forget the past, that past actions are important to remember. Which is it? Forget the past and move forward, or remember the past? I guess whichever is convenient. The fact remains that you haven't justified why Karl and Madeleine pushed the elected school board through, and then as soon as they were elected they tied up education and sued them until DOD pulled the military kids out. And now Karl won't release money for textbooks. Who cares what Gloria Nelson has agreed to forget about Karl? We haven't forgotten what he did with our kids' education.
* You state: "Vision 2001 is a plan. Please tell me what part of the Vision you disagree with. I would rather have a governor who leads and gets the businesses and the community involved in a positive plan for our island rather then wait for a politically gridlocked legislature to act!"
The Legislature is able to pass two or three dozen bills at a time. They've passed hundreds this term alone. The Republicans have a majority and they slam everything through. How is this a politically gridlocked legislature?
At any rate, your justification doesn't address the point that the plan is illegal. Setting policy is the Legislature's authority, not the governor's. His authority is to execute the policy. He has set policy, without going through the legislature as law requires, and is illegally implementing it. And campaigning and fundraising on it.
* You state: "Regarding the Cybermag polls, I am sure that many of my choices in the poll are similar to other Government employees."
You have totally ignored the fact that government employees going to Computerland by the dozens are not casting "similar" ballots, they are casting EXACTLY the same ballots. And guess who they are voting for in the gubernatorial poll? You got it. Doesn't that sound a bit unethical and misleading to people reading the polls?
* In response to my comment that Karl has not responded to questions about his administration, you state: "Well "shucky darn"! I go to village meetings, debates and other forums. Carl has not avoided disclosing his job performance. Lighthouse Keeper, you and the other ABCers just dont agree with him."
I don't even know what shucky darn means. But you are right, I don't agree with Karl. And you are wrong, he is not responding to any of the hard hitting questions about his administration. See the "Challenge to 98 supporters" thread. Neither he nor anyone in the administration or 98 campaign has really answered those points.
* You state: "Regarding the manipulation and control of the media. I find it ironic both sides are paranoid!"
Karl used to be paranoid about the media, until he made a concerted effort in the last year to control and manipulate it. And sure, it's easy to dismiss the charges against his control and manipulation as "paraoid". But have you addressed the actual facts? That Karl's big money deals with the Kalvos have resulted in more positive coverage (note that I didn't say completely positive) and have resulted in the firing of reporters and talk show hosts who won't bow in to the ridiculous demands of pro-Karl stories. How about the facts that his UMDA have bought Cable News, and has bought into Marianas Variety and has put Karl-lackey Peter Scrotum on the board of directors, and has Petey dictating news coverage and writing stories without his name on them? Or about the facts that whenever someone speaks out about Karl, he threatens them with a lawsuit? You have dismissed the charges with out addressing any of the facts.
In conclusion, I appreciate the answers. But I think they are flimsy, and without substance. They are evasive and besides the point. These are not insults I'm directing at you, but rather opinions of your arguments.
Thanks for participating, Bob.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 21, 1998.
Yes we understand that you would do anything to get a $74,000 job. Based on your performance in debating the issues in lighthouse's forum, it would be wasted money.
-- (email@example.com), October 21, 1998.
Mr. Kelley actually did a good job debating with Lighthouse. The problem is that he's in the uncomfortable intellectual position of having to defend one side regardless of the facts of the issue. With no possible response to Lighthouse's points he cleverly resorted to diversions. He's worth every penny.
-- RTT (Ratt@tat.tat), October 23, 1998.
In all due respects your analysis of lighthouse vs Kelly debate is excellent, however I like to add that lighthouse attempted to frustrate Kelly into arrogance but failed and was able to present light to the issues that lighthouse considered questionable. A classic example of issues that seldom have a right answer to actions and decisions made in the allocation of public goods and services. It is important that we rely on statutes and regulations and operating procedures in performing public duties and that even when we do follow, a personnal bias can distort our fundamental common- sense opinions of how authority conducts itself. Yes, clear thinking in these matters helps us to understand.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 23, 1998.
I love that. How do you guys do that? You know dance around the fire. And I also agree that Lighthouse tried to bring "the arrogance out of him." I mean he said it right? Or it showed in his face? I mean he put it in bold letters? Shucky darn it I know he said it or showed it somewhere. You know Lighthouse is such a manipulator I mean why can't he be so friendly like Kelley and meet with him in person. Right Proper? I mean lets forget about getting to the point and lets create this field to dance in. It will be a party. I'll ask a question you dance. I'll ask a question you dance again. It'll be the Cha-Cha from the 98Jamz. So until someone from 98 answers those 8 points directly. Play some jitterbug for me. Please do try to answer the simple question "About the misspent funds for Hamlet." Again, till then, play that 98 tune for me.
-- Edward Dumas (email@example.com), October 28, 1998.