Any water experts out there? How do you treat creek or stream water for human use? I've heard of clorox or iodine. Any info? And if I store clorinated tap water, how long is it safe in plastic jugs? Does it need to be re-treated after long term storage of 2 weeks to 6 months? And what about gasoline storage? Does one grade store better/longer than another? What will help prolong gasoline's shelf life? All info appreciated. Thanks, Johan

-- johan (reisch@c-zone.net), September 21, 1998

Answers

Good questions, Johan. I had asked about water storage in an earlier post but (in the midst of a thread) didn't get any response. I need to know before I start storing up lots of water. Blondie

-- Blondie Marie (Blondie@future.net), September 21, 1998.

Treated tap water in a sealed container is good indefinitely -- might get a little stale, but it doesn't "go bad," per se. Creek or spring water depends on the sources. Wild water in general should be tested first for contaminants (most state health depts. have water testing divisions), and surface water in particular, such as streams, lakes, ponds, should probably be run through a commercial water filter. There are lakes and streams that are drinking quality as is, but no one puts signs up to tell you which is which.

As for gasoline, you can buy gasoline stablizer through catalogues, auto stores, etc. that should keep it good for several years. I've not heard that one brand or grade does better than others.

-- J.D. Clark (yankeejdc@aol.com), September 21, 1998.

Not an expert but have checked just about all the disaster experts on the Net (including FEMA and EPA) and they're pretty much in agreement about bleach and boiling. The Canadian Government's Ministry of Health info is nicely comprehensive (see below).

Some dealers are peddling aerobic or stabilized oxygen to purify storage water and kill giardia (a nasty parasite found in water where two- and four-legged animals have been cavorting or drinking). I don't say it doesn't work, I only say these people have been unable to provide a double-blind, controlled, scientific study published in a reputable journal to show that it DOES work. As I recall, the stuff's been out since the mid-80s so you'd think there would have been a "breakthrough" journal article by now--if it works. In addition, it's very expensive--at least 1600 times more than bleach. (Bleach = 99c/gallon; least exp. aerobic oxygen = $12.95/2ozs, and you need about twice as much.) Stock up on Brita filters too--you might need them to remove the bleach taste when it's time to drink the stuff.

Art Pollard of Art's Emergency Food Storage Supply likes the Canadian info too, said so on his very good food forum.

Sorry for lengthy post but safe water is crucial. Without water all else is moot.

>>======================================== >>Canadian Government's Ministry of Health >>======================================== >>http://www.hlth.gov.bc.ca/hlthfile/hfile49b.html >> >>Ministry of Health, Health File #49b, August, 1997 >> >>Why should I disinfect my drinking water? >> >>Drinking water is disinfected to kill disease-causing micro-organisms (bacteria, viruses and parasites) which may be in it. >> >>Many different diseases are spread by drinking water contaminated by micro-organisms, including Campylobacter, cholera, amoebic dysentery, beaver fever (Giardia) [Note: giardia is spread by any four-legged animal] and Cryptosporidia. These organisms usually get into drinking water supplies when source waters (i.e.. lakes, streams) or community water supply pipes or storage reservoirs are contaminated by animal wastes or human sewage. >> >>In general, surface waters such as streams and lakes are more likely to contain disease-causing organisms than groundwater. Deep wells are safer than shallow wells. In >>fact, shallow dug wells are often as contaminated as lakes or streams. >> >>When should I disinfect my drinking water? >> >>You should disinfect your drinking water if: >> >> your community has been issued a boil water advisory; >> >> you are using water directly from a stream, lake or shallow well; >> >> lab tests of your water show that it contains "fecal coliforms"; >> >> an earthquake or other disaster has disrupted your community water supply; >> >> you are traveling in an area where water is not well treated (third world countries); or >> >> you have a weakened immune system (in which case you should disinfect all of your drinking >>water). >> >>Disinfecting small quantities of water >> >>Boiling: >> >>Boiling is the best way to kill bacteria, viruses and parasites. A full boil for at least two minutes is >>recommended. At elevations over 2,000 meters (6,500 feet) you should boil water for at least three minutes to disinfect it. >> >>NOTE: This is not appropriate for water that is obviously heavily polluted, or subject to chemical >>contamination. >> >>To remove the flat taste of boiled water, leave the boiled water in a clean covered container for a few hours or pour the cooled boiled water back and forth from one clean container to another. >> >>Disinfection using chemical methods: >> >>Unscented household bleach (5% chlorine) can sometimes be a good disinfectant - e.g. when the water is not heavily polluted, or when beaver fever or cryptosporidiosis are not a concern. >> >>Disinfection using bleach works best with warm water. Add 1 drop (0.05 mL) of bleach to 1 Litre >>of water, shake and allow to stand for at least 30 minutes before drinking. >> >>Double the amount of bleach for cloudy water, or for cooler water. >> >> A slight chlorine odour should still be noticeable at the end of the 30 minute waiting period if you >>have added enough bleach. >> >>The disinfection action of bleach depends as much on the waiting time after mixing as to the amount used. The longer the water is left to stand after adding bleach, the more effective the disinfection process will be. >> >>NOTE: Bleach does not work well in killing off beaver fever (Giardia) or Cryptosporidium >>parasites. The amount of bleach needed to kill these parasites makes the water almost impossible to drink. If beaver fever or Cryptosporidium are in your water, boiling is the best way to ensure safe drinking water. >> >>Chlorine Tablets: >> >>Follow the manufacturers' directions. >> >>Iodine: >> >>Whenever possible use warm water (20 0C) and let stand a minimum of 20 minutes after mixing and before drinking. >> >>For cold water (5 - 150C) increase the waiting time after mixing to 40 minutes. >> >>If you are using 2% tincture of iodine, use 10 drops (0.5 mL) for every one litre of water. >> >>With iodine tablets, follow the manufacturer's directions. >> >>PLEASE NOTE: >> >> Pregnant women should not use iodine drops to purify water as it may have an effect on the fetus. >> >> Iodine should not be used to disinfect water over long periods of time as prolonged use can cause thyroid problems. [Aha! So that's where I learned it!] >> >>Disinfecting larger amounts of water in tanks or barrels >> >>Always use clean containers which are designed for storage of food or water. You can use regular household bleach (usually about 5% chlorine) or commercial bleach products (usually 10% chlorine). >> >>The table below shows how much regular household bleach to add to various size water containers to disinfect relatively clean water. >> >>If you are treating water from a lake, stream or shallow well, use twice as much household >>(5%) bleach as indicated in the chart below and wait twice as long before drinking it because it is more likely to contain chlorine-resistant parasites from animal droppings. Let the water stand for at least an hour after adding the bleach before you start drinking it. If the water is colder than 100C or has a pH higher than 8, let the water stand for at least two hours before drinking. >> >>[Note: if you go to the site you'll find a very nicely-done table, all neat and tidy.] >> >>Gallons of water to disinfect (equivalent shown in parens), followed by amount of (5%) bleach to add. >> >>1 gal. (4.5 litres), 2 drops (0.18 mL) >>2-1/2 gal. (10 litres), 5 drops (0.4 mL) >>5 gal. (23 litres), 11 drops (0.9 mL) >>10 gal. (45 litres), 22 drops (1.8 mL) >>22 gal. (100 litres), 3/4 teaspoon (4 mL) >>45 gal. (205 litres), 1-1/2 teaspoons (8 mL) >>50 gal. (230 litres), 1-3/4 teaspoons (9 mL) >>100 gal. (450 litres), 3-1/2 teaspoons (18 mL) >>220 gal. (1000 litres), 8 teaspoons (40 mL) >>500 gal. (2200 litres), 6 tablespoons (90 mL) >>1000 gal. (4550 litres), 6-1/2 ounces or 12 tablespoons (180 mL) >> >>*Adding household (5%) bleach at these amounts will produce water with about 2 parts per million of chlorine in it (about 0.0002 percent).

-- Aitch (jimp7@mindspring.com), September 21, 1998.

Here's another question for this thread: Can one store cylinders of propane for campstoves in one's basement? Or does it have to be outside?

-- Anne (abgilson@aol.com), September 21, 1998.

In addition to boiling and bleach, I would advise buying one of the advanced handheld water filters from Katadyn or PUR. What happens if you have to "bug out" and leave your stored water behind? Water is way ahead of food in the priority list on any survival list. Some Filters are good for thousands of liters if used with some kind of pre-filter (charcoal, sand, etc.) Try http://www.baproducts.com

-- R. D..Herring (drherr@erols.com), September 21, 1998.

Anne,

Keep your propane outside. Propane is heavier than air, and if it leaks, it will collect at low points and ignite with any spark. You might want to rig a cage with a lock, or otherwise keep it in a ventilated and defensible outside area.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), September 21, 1998.

also too the previous thread (now archived, I think, last entry early Sept 1999) about storing other gases (including propane) inside. It had some real good info about related safety items too.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), September 21, 1998.

By the way, if you do treat tap water with chlorine for storage - we have tried it out by taking it out, pouring it back and forth a few times from one container to another, and then mixing it with like powdered lemonade and Kool-Aid. Kids never noticed a thing!

-- Melissa (financed@forbin.com), September 21, 1998.

1) ALL surface water must be considered as biologically contaminated and MUST be filtered to be potable. Now, there are a LOT of options for the filtration, from Water Washers, to Katahdin, to a LOT of backpacker supplies, and even Royal Doulton makes a biological filter. I especially like the Royal Doulton filter, as it is a jug-type or crock type, water in top, hospital grade microbiolobically pure water out the spout.

2) Biologicals will be only part of the problem, as there are chemicals contaminating most surface water. Need a charcoal or other chemical filter. Best source of info is a REPUTABLE Canoe or Back pack outfitter. Go somewhere they can talk to you inteligently. The best places will have staff who travel a lot and look as thouigh they just finished a 3 week trip, this afternoon (HI HI).

3) For travel, the Katahdin almost has to win, (Yeah they've got multiple models, so try to get one of the ceramic filter ones) because of the ease of cleaning and long term use, plus size.

For stationary use, seriously try to find the royal Doulton one. It's somewhat pricey, but.....

cr

OOPS a) The source for the first statement was the U S Forest Service in 1985 b) HI HI translates as YUK YUK if you aren't a Ham Radio Operator.

-- Chuck a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 22, 1998.

Chuck:

Maybe you could help out with some inforamtion about ham radio in the thread Internet/Communications Alternatives. Thx.

-- Mike (gartner@execpc.com), September 22, 1998.

I mentioned in an earlier post about a good water filter I ordered from Harmony that filters out giardia and cryptosporidium. Looks like the top part of a water cooler and costs $109. If you want to order a catalogue their number is 1-800-869-3446. I think it's a good investment. If we don't need it for y2k we can always use it after a hurricane!

-- Kitty in VA (kittyfelton@webtv.net), September 22, 1998.

Katadyn filters take out almost everything except do not take out nitrates ( a known carcinogen and very common in farm country water). I found that reverse osmosis does take out nitrates, but doesn't take out bacteria. Anyone have any ideas other than to double filter the water?

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), September 22, 1998.

I fear you are a mite mistaken on reverse osmosis. Pretty much by definition, a reverse osmosis filter has to take out almost everything because you are forcing the water through a semi-permeable membrane. The bacteria problem is in the receiving tank, as the water is NOT

-- Chuck a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 22, 1998.

OOPS TAKE # 2

I fear you are a mite mistaken on reverse osmosis. Pretty much by definition, a reverse osmosis filter has to take out almost everything because you are forcing the water through a semi-permeable membrane. "Osmosis" is the process of water passing through a semi-permeable membrane toward the region of highest density of disolved _____ (you fill in the blank). "Reverse Osmosis" is the process of forcing the water to go the other way. The bacteria problem is in the receiving tank, as the water is NOT stabilized with an anti-bacterial like chlorine, etc. Thus, you need to sterileze the receiving tank periodically, and use sterile technique for handling it and the water.

Sorry about the double post, the fingers are sometimes more clumsy than teh eye (and faster, too)

cr

-- Chuck a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 22, 1998.

I have used many different types of portable water filters during my years of backpacking, and most are good for short term usage. However, I noticed that all but my latest have one very annoying habit-clogging. Despite pre filtering, and despite what the company claims, most conventional water filters have an annoying tendency to do this, and often are very difficult to clean (again despite what the company claims) effectively, and so you have to have on hand replacement filters. I started looking around for ceramic element filters, like in bio chem classes. These are easily cleaned, and long lasting but, alas, the problem is that they are not easy to find-a case of too good for the manufacturer to make a buck? Any way, I did finally locate one made by MSR-in fact, they make 2 models. They are fairly inexpensive- at @ 70.00- and best of all they are easily cleaned in the field. So far, I have yet to have to replace it or do more than scrub off the element with a scrub pad-and I have field tested it in some pretty dirty water, including cattle troughs, etc. Check it out-Ernest says two thumbs up!

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), September 22, 1998.