My thoughts exactly, check it out:

http://www.year2000.com/y2kgame.html

-- Buddy (buddy@bellatlantic.net), August 07, 1998

Answers

Well said Mr. de Yager! (I knew there was a reason why I admire that man)

I'm snagging a copy to mail out to my personal Y2k mail list.

-- Ed Perrault (EdPerrault@Compuserve.com), August 07, 1998.

I particulary like deJager's idea of having people along the railroad tracks with lanterns. So much so that I almost soiled myself. And that poem.....What a nerd!!!

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), August 07, 1998.

Buddy, thanks for putting me in touch with deJager's message. Might have missed it otherwise. He's focussed on the y2k problem, not on his religious beliefs, or his personal dissatisfaction with life. It's a manageable problem, not the end of the world as we know it. Gary North should get out of his fantasy world and off his pedestal and listen to some one who knows what he's talking about.

The end of our way of life is coming to us from another quarter, from the growing chaos within the natural systems upon which we depend more than we depend upon our precious computer technology.

Y2k gets fixed and all will be well, right?

The Japanese are far less worried about Y2k than we are, not because they're stupid, but because they have a perspective virgin Americans, who have so little experience with social and natural disasters, lack.

We are gaining experience with natural disasters, with increasing frequency in each passing year. We have a bland and stupid confidence that because no one but us has used a nuclear weapon, they won't be used. With Robert Service optomism people look forward to a world with 10 billion people in it, imagining that such a world could actually exist!

GET REAL!

-- Joseph Danison (JDanison@aol.com), August 07, 1998.

Peter de Jagers pronouncement ( Youre Sick of the Game...) that we could keep the railroads open with a lot of men with lanterns and crowbars along the tracks really set me to thinking. Why de Jager is onto something! Similar American ingenuity could keep lots of really nasty things from happening to our way of life, should Y2K turn out to be a real monster.

For example: We wouldnt probably even notice the loss of the telcos if we were to breed huge flocks of carrier pidgins. We could even keep the internet up by spray painting alternate ones black (1s) and white (0s) and teaching them to fly in internet protocol formation. Im sure good ol American know how would eventually produce a true 56.6 bird, eliminating the long download wait.

If the transportation industry grinds to a halt, revive the bicycle grocery delivery boy. For that matter, we could wire five gallon buckets to the handlebars and begin transporting all the grain that the railroads and trucks do now. A fleet of 200,000 of these marvelous machines could haul out the grain from one small elevator in the corn belt to the nearest city. How about conscripting all the health club members in America. They spend hours on bikes going nowhere already....let them really earn their hard bodies.

All this talk of NYC burning to the ground is poppycock if you just have enough buckets. Giant bucket brigade lines stretching from the harbor could save many a burning skyscraper in the Big Apple. This bucket line could be a duel use solution, since raw sewage could be sent back down the bucket return line to be dumped in the harbor. The mayor will have wished he hadnt wasted all that money on a bunker.

If we only wouldnt waste our prescious time storing food, finding rural shelter, caching shotgun shells, we could implement hundreds such solutions. Then no mater what the computers do on 00, Y2K would only be a little bump in the road. Go team go, GO USA!

Timothy Rebman

-- T.I. Cheek (ticheek@bgmess.com), August 08, 1998.

Joseph, that's a really good point you make about the Japanese. They are used to dealing with disasters, as are many other countries. What happens though when everyone goes down the shitter at the same time? How does you provide help to someone when you need help yourself? Wait, give everyone a lantern and let them wave it. Someone will see them. I bet we could buy some really cheap ones from the Japanese.

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), August 08, 1998.

No one who has looked at the problem even casually can say with confidence it will be no problem, or just a bump in the road. It will be a problem. But it isn't the biggest problem confronting our way of life. The people in the various industries we depend upon on not utterly stupid and incompetent. Anyone who adopts the Gary North point of view has a vested interest in seeing it all come down. North is not interested in reality, he's interested in the fulfillment of his Biblical "judgement" against a culture of which he does not approve. Those who think North is correct should join up with him in his Christian attack on American culture, and donate their cash to him when he makes his bid to become Exalted Autocrat in the new American Theocracy!

-- Joseph Danison (JDanison@aol.com), August 08, 1998.

Joseph, why are you harping on North? Answer the question. What happens if the shit hits the fan everywhere? Who gets disaster relief first? And who gets the lanterns first?

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), August 08, 1998.

de Jager says -----> No Dial Tones? Local Area?

We've already been without dial tone for days and weeks at a time. Ice Storms, hurricanes, earthquakes etc. Etc. are all recent examples. Did we survive them? You're reading this, so I guess the answer your answer is yes.

My response -----> Some people aren't here to read this because they didn't survive them. In many cases, emergency response systems didn't work.

de Jager says----->Nuclear power stations go boom? After a while the solutions become childlike... turn the damn thing off if you're not 100% sure. Will turning it off have an impact on the power grids? Of course it will, but if planned for, the systems can handle the load. Will there be problems with the Grid? Of course there will, but once isolated the problems can either be fixed or bypassed.

My response ----->First, nuclear power accounts for 22% of power generated nationwide, and from 35 to 40% of power generated in the Mid-Atlantic states and Northeast. The proven power reserve is 10%, according to a y2k optimist, Dick Mills. Let's see, 40% from 10% leaves a deficit of 30%. Could Mr. de Jager be grasping at straws? I have to believe HE's become childllike.

You know, there's an interesting tone to this argument. It has to do with sanctity of life. De Jager, and others (Buddy, Joseph) who argue that "It won't be Doomsday," are effectively only saying that "It won't be Doomsday.......for the human race as a species."

If your power goes out and you die, but my power stays on and I live, it isn't doomsday -- for me?

OK, at what point in the game does y2k become doomsday. One death, a hundred, a thousand, a million, a billion? Or only when it's yours?

I defy de Jager (or Joseph, or Buddy)to argue that lives won't be lost if power is lost in the Northern states in the middle of the winter, or that lives won't be lost if water supplies become highly contaminated, or that lives won't be lost if riots occur in major cites.

Doomsday? Define it, please! Whose life must be lost before it's doomsday?

-- Rocky Knolls (rknolls@hotmail.com), August 08, 1998.

I have one basic problem with all the arguments I hear from those who downplay Y2K. Folks say we've been without power before, and water, etc. We lived through tornadoes and hurricanes and we were fine. I agree, but this argument really has nothing to do with Y2K.

We've never seen anything like Y2K in the history of civilized man. Never before have all the nations of the world experienced the same problems all at the same time (except for the flood or the tower of Babel, if you are a believer). It isn't a matter of a few areas being affected, everyone is affected.

Not only that, but everything is affected at every level of industry, health, utilities, banking, telecommunications, transportation, government, the military, etc. This has NEVER happened before, and to say it's just like other things we've dealt with is so simplistic as to be just plain stupid.

And I'm a Y2K optimist!

But pom-poms and cheering squads don't win the game. The players do.

If you see something needing fixing, then fix the darn thing and then fix the next thing. Hard work is something we're known for. Let's see if we still know how to do it. :)

Blessings!

-- Pastor Chris (pastorchris@lifetel.com), August 08, 1998.

Aye, Pastor Chris! I'd call it ignorant though, not stupid! :)

-- Dave (dave22@concentrc.net), August 08, 1998.

It is not true to say that this computer problem will effect everyone on the planet simultaneously.Y2k may betray the illusion of US techno-security, given that we have automated more of our lives than less developed countries. Most of the populations of India & China will not be affected in the same way. They will continue happilly swinging their lanterns and manually switching their trains. Take a poll among those living along the Yangtse River to see how serious a problem y2k is to them. It will trouble the automated western societies, but most of the world's population will not suddenly become more miserable than they currently are. Y2k is a first of its kind, no doubt, a whole new species of problem, and probably not the last of its kind, either. On the other hand, there are more significant unprecedented developments in our world. There have never before been 6 billion people on the planet. Humankind has never before possessed the capability of destroying itself. Humankind has never before influenced the the global ecological balance. Y2k is a symptom of what ails us, not a cause. We will likely experience a serious economic downturn before y2k makes itself felt. The Asian bubble did not burst owing to glitches in computer code. Y2k is symptomatic of the laissez-faire attitudes that underly our archaic notions of a "free market", the lack of vision, and the lack of capability in dealing with problems of organization involving masses of people such as have never existed before. I harp on about Gary North because he has taken a technical problem and turned it into an eschatalogical problem. He is chief spokesman for the doom & gloom school of y2k assessment, and he's a clever man and a skilled polemicist. Ayatollah North has an agenda, and it is not to help fix this technical problem. He is, in a manner of speaking, a self-appointed executioner of all the millions he foresees will die as a result of y2k, and all of you who ape North's point of view are either young and naive, or callous, as he is. Maybe you don't even realize you're aping his point of view? Examine your own conscience: do you want our way of life to collapse? Do you want people to suffer and die? If you don't, then look for reasons why we can deal with it, and don't sit around croaking like Poe's Raven, and Ayatollah North: Nevermore! Anyone who stands up and says: "God is going to judge this culture and millions will die" is talking villanous shit. ( You doubt this is what he's saying? Check out new links on his website and his response to Peter de Yager's perspective.) This needs to be said. It is part of the solution to y2k. North has taken a technical problem, turned it into an eschatalogical problem, and carried on a campaign to frighten and discourage the public in the name of education. He is an opportunist and a religious fanatic. There have been questions concerning conspiracies & y2k in this forum. Consider the conspiracy to prove y2k is "systemic" and can't be fixed. We are generally asleep at the wheel in our world, but we're waking up to y2k, and will prove Ayatollah North to be wrong. Too bad we're not doing anything about other, more serious problems that are seriously disrupting our way of life and will prove far more disastrous than y2k.

-- Joseph Danison (JDanison@aol.com), August 08, 1998.

Joseph said,

>>>>>snip much preamble<<<<<

Y2k is a symptom of what ails us, not a cause.

I agree. >>>>>>>> We will likely experience a serious economic downturn before y2k makes itself felt. The Asian bubble did not burst owing to glitches in computer code. Y2k is symptomatic of the laissez-faire attitudes that underly our archaic notions of a "free market", the lack of vision, and the lack of capability in dealing with problems of organization involving masses of people such as have never existed before. 

Actually, Joseph, Y2K will do more damage in nations that arent as free market oriented as ours, especially Germany and Japan.

>>>>>>>>> I harp on about Gary North because he has taken a technical problem and turned it into an eschatalogical problem.

Wrong, totally wrong. This has NEVER been a technical problem. It has always been a human problem. These are people who dont understand the problem, who have resisted fixing the problem, who have denied that it is a problem. Youve just said that, yourself, in your last paragraph. The technical problem could have been fixed years ago. The reason it still is a problem today is that it was not acted upon then. This, Joseph, is HUMAN failure. The same kind of human failure that is rampant in controlled economies.

>>>>>>>> "He is chief spokesman for the doom & gloom school of y2k assessment, and he's a clever man and a skilled polemicist. Ayatollah North has an agenda, and it is not to help fix this technical problem. He is, in a manner of speaking, a self-appointed executioner of all the millions he foresees will die as a result of y2k, and all of you who ape North's point of view are either young and naive, or callous, as he is."

Joseph, please. First of all, get off the name calling bit. When you discuss North you rant and rave. Calm down. The saliva is getting on my keyboard!

Second, learn that discussing Y2K problems and calling for preparation isnt necessarily aping Norths point of view. Why do you so persistently deny that the entire Y2K arena is an analog --- not a digital --- affair, that anyone who advocates doing anything on the personal or community level, or even discusses the growing mountain of evidence that points toward possible disasters must be hoping for the end of the world? Youre fixated on this point, Joseph, the same way youre fixated on North. >>>>>>>> Maybe you don't even realize you're aping his point of view? Examine your own conscience: do you want our way of life to collapse? Do you want people to suffer and die? If you don't, then look for reasons why we can deal with it, and don't sit around croaking like Poe's Raven, .....

Im sorry, Joseph, look for reaons why we can deal with it? Thats the solution? That's going to save lives? Figure out why it isnt going to be a problem? Think happy thoughts? Dont buy insurance because if you do you may have to use it? Looking for reasons that it isnt going to be a problem doesnt feed the bulldog, Joseph, and it certainly contributes zero toward any real solution.....the care and feeding of several hundred million people in the Western world.

No, I dont want people to suffer and die. Thats why I think de Jagers article is such a piece of trash. He calls for people NOT to stockpile the food and water that might give them life, NOT to put aside money to get by an emergency. He calls for people who feel threatened to NOT leave the cities. He calls for people to stay in the bilges of the Titanic as it goes down. Thats the script for suffering and death, not laying aside in a time of plenty and preparing. >>>>>> ..........and Ayatollah North: Nevermore! Anyone who stands up and says: "God is going to judge this culture and millions will die" is talking villanous shit. ( You doubt this is what he's saying? Check out new links on his website and his response to Peter de Yager's perspective.)

No, I dont doubt for a minute that this is what hes saying. Actually, I believe the same theme was written into a book thousands of years ago. The first guy who talked villanous shit was named Noah. North isnt original. >>>>> ..........This needs to be said. It is part of the solution to y2k. North has taken a technical problem, turned it into an eschatalogical problem, ......"

How is this a part of the solution? Oh, I see, if we would just quit talking about it, Y2K would go away? Gee, someone has suddenly invented the REAL silver bullet.....just dont talk about the problem. >>>>>> ..........and carried on a campaign to frighten and discourage the public in the name of education. He is an opportunist and a religious fanatic.

Probably. Its his forum, he pays for it, sometimes with help from readers, and he can do what he likes with it. So what? Hasnt been proved to me that this is an evil thing. Besides which, sometimes the only way to get people to prepare is to frighten them. Are you preparing, Joseph.....or do you use this forum to write long letters in order to convince yourself NOT to take stock. >>>>>>>> There have been questions concerning conspiracies & y2k in this forum. Consider the conspiracy to prove y2k is "systemic" and can't be fixed. 

Conspiracy theory? Really, Joseph, youre really beginning to lose it. Conspiracy? North has stated that this is his belief, but that doesnt constitute a conspiracy. Proving anything isn't a conspiracy. Youre so worked up now that youre just throwing words around. >>>>>>> We are generally asleep at the wheel in our world, but we're waking up to y2k, and will prove Ayatollah North ......

Oh yes, the South shall rise again. Who are we? >>>>>>> .....to be wrong.

On second thought, go back to sleep.

Actually, I hope you do prove North wrong. Ill be very happy to give some of my stored food to the local food bank. But just saying happy things and sweeping the problem under the bed isnt the solution. >>>>>>>> Too bad we're not doing anything about other, more serious problems that are seriously disrupting our way of life and will prove far more disastrous than y2k.

Like what Joseph? Do you have other conspiracies to introduce? Oh, yes, youre into natural disturbances. Amazing. Lets see -- we actually could get hit with showers of astroids that damage satellites, Y2K, solar flares that contribute even further to degradation in electric power distribution. We live in interesting times.

I think I've got it, though. Refuse to listen to the weather report and the hurricane won't hit and the creek won't rise.

-- Rocky Knolls (rknolls@hotmail.com), August 08, 1998.

Joseph,

I agree about China, and feel especially warm and fuzzy knowing that the mostly low-tech Chinese armed forces will have very few glitches as compared to us.

Which economic model would you propose to replace our "archaic free market" system? Perhaps one of those Eastern European systems which worked so well for the former U.S.S.R.?

"Ayatollah" North, despite any theological flaws, is doing the GOOD work of getting the word out to those "asleep at the wheel". Frighten the people now, while there is still time to prepare, not later when it is so late as to incite mass hysteria. If the majority of people are unaware until just a few months ahead of time, what will that do to exaggerate the way in which they react?

Anyone who stands up and says "God is going to judge this culture and millions will die" is voicing his opinion, much like you and I. His religious views make his predictions neither more, nor less, accurate than they would be without said views.

As to the other "more serious problems that are seriously disrupting our way of life", we will probably wake up late to them as well, it is the nature of the beast, we are a self destructive lot. If this problem turns out to be on the very bad side of the scale, it may do much toward solving some of those other problems that concern you. I would like to live long enough to find out.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), August 08, 1998.

Wake up and smell the roses! Joseph is really Timothy Fonseca. It hit me when he made the reference to Poe's Raven. Fonseca used to make these kinds of references regularly! Check it out if you don't believe me. The crazy rantings also sent up a red flag. He's baaaaaaaaack!!

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), August 09, 1998.

Just a quick note (everyone say, "Hurray!")...

It amazes me how diatribes are sprouted from the smallest of seeds. My comment about Y2K having never been experienced was meant as a general statement. I've said before that the tree people in the Amazon won't care. That goes without saying. But the vast majority of the inhabitants of this planet will be affected in one way or the other.

(I can't believe I had to make that point...)

-- Pastor Chris (pastorchris@lifetel.com), August 09, 1998.

Aye, Pastor Chris. The shit flies too easily here.

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), August 09, 1998.

*sigh*

Joey, Joey, relax man...

Everything is ok, Gary North isn't important.

Relaaaax...

That's better...

Boy, do you have it figured out, or what? I admire a guy with convictions! Especially when they are well thought out.

Now, watch out for a flame from Paul, 'cause he's real touchy about this emotion thing you've got goin'.

And in this case, I gotta agree with him. You know as well as I do that the computer glitch doesn't amount to a hill 'o beans compared to nukes and baby-makin' and Bible thumpin', so leave it be, ok? I mean, hell what's the problem? Man like you has it all together, so just walk away and leave these poor misguided folk to their folly.

You'll feel much better in the morning.

-- Will Huett (willhuett@usa.net), August 09, 1998.

Why do all of you people who think Y2K is nothing blame Gary North for everything? I think the man scares you all and hits a nerve. You won't admit it though. This man seems to have become the scapegoat for all the scaremongering and ill will that goes on regarding Y2K. I was listening Peter to deJager on C-Span2(giving a speech before a software group in San Francisco) this evening and he said that he thinks "1% of all business will fail...only because he was afraid to say that more than that would fail". He also said he would not be around at the turn of the century. " NO CALLS!! He won't be available!" Now who is running and hiding? He said we don't have enough programmers to fix it, then a few minutes later he said we could solve it. At least North sticks to agenda! deJager is really wishy washy.

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), August 09, 1998.

Joseph, You're on to something. WHO wants a 10 billion global population in the next century? Wouldn't it be better for the planet if millions die? If Y2k causes those deaths then it can be blamed on an impersonal crisis. You can shoot the messengers (North), and then maybe people won't listen and MORE will die. We MAY have a sustainable population in the 21st century if only we could shut up these people trying to PREPARE!!

-- (Global@boom.com), August 10, 1998.

Joseph, You're on to something. WHO wants a 10 billion global population in the next century? Wouldn't it be better for the planet if millions die? If Y2k causes those deaths then it can be blamed on an impersonal crisis. You can shoot the messengers (North), and then maybe people won't listen and MORE will die. We MAY have a sustainable population in the 21st century if only we could shut up these people trying to PREPARE!!

GO BACK TO SLEEP EVERYONE, it was just a bad dream....zzzzzzzz

-- (Global@boom.com), August 10, 1998.

Dave, you said:

"Why do all of you people who think Y2K is nothing blame Gary North for everything?"

Not everyone. (Of course, I don't think Y2k is nothing, it's just not everything.) I agree that the North bashing has gotten out of hand, and I am certainly no fan of Dr. North. Let's face it, if you can get past his often sarcastic and occasionally ranting commentary, North assembled one of the most comprehensive sites of information about the Y2K problem. And, when he sticks to known facts, he makes excellent points about the potential impact of Y2K.

However, I certainly see where the anti-North element gets it's ammo from. I even agree with a lot of it. The guy does have a long history of crying wolf regarding the total economic collapse of modern society. In fact, he has admitted in print more than once that he frequently prays for just such an event. Furthermore, in his Y2K discussion, some of the leaps of logic he makes when he doesn't have facts to back him up are just flat ludicrous. And yes, he is an extreme Christian fundamentalist who advocates the dissolution of the U.S. as it is known and it's replacement with an ultra-conservative theocracy. Hardly a position that endears trust in the public at large. Those who refer to him as Ayatholla North may not be far off the mark should North ever get his way. Personally, I think he has allowed his religious ferver to seriously cloud his objectivity, and as such I have to take all information that filters through him very carefully.

Still, the guy has done no small amount of good in raising awareness, providing information and reaching a population that otherwise would not have heard of Y2K nearly as soon as it did. People should neither forget nor downplay that.

-- Paul Neuhardt (neuhardt@ultranet.com), August 10, 1998.

OK, suppose Gary North is correct, y2k is "systemic" and can't be fixed. You want certainty, never any wafling, you want absolutes? This is the coin of Ayatollah North's realm. What next? Until Jesus comes to bail you out, you're on your own, with your wives and kids and other dependents. No government. Just your locality. Hope there aren't any ambitious, wannabe warlords in your locality to declare a government and take control of your life for your own good. These types do exist as we speak, waiting for North's vision to become reality.

But you're wise, you have foresight, you've stored up your dried beans and rice, your cases of Dinty Moore Beef Stew, bought your generators, your woodstoves, your 50 gallon drums of fuel, your water purifiers, your stacks of surplus first-aid kits, and 10,000 rounds of ammo in case some one tries to flame you. Question: how long will you hold out before you have to start growing your own food? Six months, a year?

Do you know how to make a garden grow? Have you ever gotten blisters and callouses on your hands? The only blisters Gary North ever got are on his brain, from thinking nasty thoughts. He bought a farm. What's he going to do there, explain y2k to his chickens? He's a flabby intellectual. Are you tough, have you ever done physical labor day in and day out? Not even Uncle Sam's famous bootcamps could make you tough enough to be subsistance farmers and grow your own food.

You need nice weather to grow food. A drought is bad. Avoid Texas and Oklahoma. The Southwest is bad. California is mostly bad. A flood is bad. Don't pick a spot on a 500 year flood plain, which spreads into all states along the Mississippi River. This may seem extreme, but the fact is that when a locality gets hit today, it survives handilly because food is not grown locally. If it were, there would be millions of starving people, today, in our country. But of course, people would die quietly and never make the evening news, because there would be no evening news, and no government to step in. But just keep hoeing your garden. Don't mind the chaos in the weather. No more division of labor, so pick up that shovel! Your children are fussy and your wife is extremely resentful. She treats you like shit on her leg.

How about some fresh meat for dinner? Ooops! No more animals left! They were all shot after the first year. Too many people, not enough animals. Oh well, being a vegetarian is supposed to be healthier.

And what happens when your fuel drums are empty? You switch to wood, of course. Ayatollah North has natural gas, both on his property and in his brain, but he won't share it with you. Have you got a woodlot, where you can go and chop wood and not get shot? You're competing with alot of people for that wood. It better be on your property. If not, talk to me after my speech, and I'll tell you about some nice wooded acreage. Don't have $200,000 bullion equivalent? Well, maybe you'd like to come and be a tenant on my land and do my work for me. And remember, I get first crack at any virgins in your family.

What happens when a contagious disease knocks on your door and you are so depressed that your immune systems aren't working right? You hold bedside vigils for your near and dear, little prayer ceremonies because the bug is resistant to the antibiotics you stashed. You get used to people dying, though. You keep working in your garden and forget about it and hope you don't die.

This is what the Ayatollah of y2k has planned for you and your loved ones and everyone else on the planet.

You think he's doing GOOD? You think it will be like a camping trip?

If you don't do everything you can to promote the solution of y2k, if you defend the likes of Gary North and fall into the intellectual traps he's laid for you, you'll be as big a fool as he is. You cannot survive in his vision with even a year's supply of food. If you don't die, some of those you cherish will. Many will not want to live at all. This is not education, to call the problem "systemic" and proclaim it cannot be fixed.

It is intellectual terrorism.

-- Joseph Danison (JDanison@aol.com), August 10, 1998.

Joseph, have you stopped taking your medication again?

-- Gary South (gsouth@lol.com), August 10, 1998.

Joseph,(Timothy, Anthony, SFB)or whoever you are! You gathered all of this from reading Gary North?? I stop at his website for a good laugh. I think his sense of humor is great. I especially like the one about "How to Read Your Bank Statement." Dang near wet my drawers reading that one! Lighten Up. This thing will probably be just a bump in the road. I'd get a lantern though, just in case! Maybe you and Paul could hang out at the railroad switches. :-)

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), August 11, 1998.

Joseph,

<< You think he's doing GOOD? You think it will be like a camping trip?

If you don't do everything you can to promote the solution of y2k, if you defend the likes of Gary North and fall into the intellectual traps he's laid for you, you'll be as big a fool as he is. >>

Woah! There's a big difference between believeing he has done some good, which I do, and believing in his vision, which I most certainly do not. If you take time to sift through the info on his site, there is a lot of practical, worthwhile information there no matter where you sit on the "how bad is it going to be" spectrum.

Yes, I know the guy has some extreme views. Personally, I think the guy is a nut case and has been a nut case for the 25 years I can trace his publications back through. For example, he has openly advocated a world where children are put to death by stoning without benefit of trial for cursing at their parents. That's a vision I want no part of.

However, he is a welll educated and articulate man who can and does say things that make sense. What you have to do is engage your brain, consider the source and understand his motives when examining what he does and says. If you are willing to go to that small amount of effort, you can indeed find some good in North's Y2K work.

-- Paul Neuhardt (neuhardt@ultranet.com), August 11, 1998.

Dave,

I must admit, I had missed How To Read Your Bank Statement. Thanks for the pointer. It was indeed a laugh riot.

As for my swinging lanterns by the railroad tracks, if DeJager thinks that's a good idea then more power to him. Go Pete, hold your lantern high. As for me, I've seen trains running in the dark in the past, and I'm all too willing to let 'em run in the dark in the future.

-- Paul Neuhardt (neuhardt@ultranet.com), August 11, 1998.

The name of the game so far as Gary North is concerned is "containment". He's a very entertaining and intelligent individual, but also, unfortunately, an intellectual terrorist who has found a very soft spot in the American psyche. If Americans were as thoughtful and sophisicated as those in this forum, with the exception of Rocky Knolls who thinks North is like the Biblical Noah, the Ayatollah-in-training wouldn't be a problem, he'd be just another American Original, and an excellant subject for books & movies. I hope he has had the foresight to copyright his life.

-- Joseph Danison (JDanison@aol.com), August 11, 1998.

Like I said, don't hang on the words of one man. I think North likes to pour on, although he does offer good sources. Read, get informed and make your own decisions....and keep your fingers crossed that we will get through this. I want my golden years to be spent riding the trains, not switching them. :)

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), August 11, 1998.