CAUTION.... SPIRITUAL POST. VIEW ONLY IF REALLY INTERESTED.

"Be not deceived, God is not mocked: For whatsover a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Galations 6:7)

We who submit to the authority of God have been maligned, mocked, and vilified by unbelievers for daring to warn forum participants of the seriousness of not being spiritually prepared for y2k. Some believers have also rebuked us for "coming on too strong" and not showing Christian love to forum participants.

I do admit that I allowed myself to be dragged into debate which caused some to be offended by my remarks directed at individuals, and for this I apologize. However, I feel I have a biblical mandate to be a faithful witness for Christ, and a responsibility to vigorously oppose those would try to stifle the propagation of the Gospel.

This nation has thumbed its nose at Almighty God, and lives in a deluded state of licentious hedonism. Some participants have dared to blaspheme God and scoff at His Holy Word... acts that should not be tolerated without righteous indignation. Some (mistakingly) see God only as light and love... one who understands human weakness and takes everyone to Heaven when they die. Those who preach only a gospel of love are unwittingly 'loving sinners into hell'. They ignore the fact that God is also "a consuming fire" and has promised vengeance upon all His enemies.

Those who see Him as One who would never consign men to hell, might ask themselves why He didn't intervene when the Titanic sank; or when 6,000 perished in the earthquake in Japan; or when 6,000,000 jews perished; or a thousand other disasters? God rules... and He will never allow wicked men to ultimately prevail. He will, however, allow men to go on in their sin and unbelief until their cup is full to the brim, and then execute judgment. Sorry to say...physical death is only a small fraction of the wages of sin. The rest will be paid at the final judgment, when unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire and their cries of anguish will go unheard.

"Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand and no man regarded... I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes. When your fear comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you, then shall they call upon me but I will not answer." (Proverbs 1:25-28). Forum scoffers won't be troubled by these verses, and most likely will insist on still having the last word. Indeed, they may have the last word here, but as we have just read, God will have the last laugh as they pay the ultimate price for treading under foot their only hope of salvation. "VENGEANCE IS MINE; I WILL REPAY SAITH THE LORD". (Rom. 12:19)

Y2k may be historically recorded as just a brief, difficult period of time. However, if it turns out to be a man-made catastrophe, or worse yet, a precursor to the judgment of God, many will be unprepared to cope, and spiritually unfit to request help from the Lord. Our voice on this forum has no purpose other than to be of help with spiritual preparations. We have no interest in disrupting any posting or maligning anyone, but we do intend to exercise our right to freedom of speech as the Lord directs. If hostile, God-hating posters insist on scoffing whenever the name of God is mentioned, then they should expect to be lovingly rebuffed.

The day is far spent and the night is at hand. This is no time for believers to be 'playing church' or putting trust in religion. True believers should make it their business to warn sinners that God's wrath is coming, and not sit passively back "loving them into hell".

Arcy

-- Arcy (arcy.w@usa.net), July 30, 1998

Answers

You go arcy! I'm with ya!

-- Ron (rmccamey@usa.net), July 30, 1998.

Let me see if I have this correct, God created me in his own image and gave me a mind that I can use for reason. However if I use this mind to question the validity of certain passages in a book compiled by OTHER MEN this very same God will send me to hell? Can somebody tell me why I should not prefer hell to an eternity spent with an all powerful, vindictive, judgemental God so unlike his only son?

-- Unce Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), July 30, 1998.

You forgot to ask him about the virgin birth. Religion does not encourage questions, I found that out.

-- Amy Leone (aleone@amp.com), July 30, 1998.

Remember, Amy and Unce:

These people have stored a lot of guns and ammo to back up their rhetoric. If government breaks down, they're going to have a hoot'nanny after all the "mocking" they've suffered up till now. So polish up on your Bible (especially Leviticus) and get ready to watch a lot of homosexuals, methodists and other unbelievers get burned alive - a practice that fundamentalists in our state of Washington have advocated openly. Or maybe stoning will make a comeback, especially if fuel is scarce.

Christianity is like the dynoflaggelate algae, that micro-organism in the waters of NC that makes fish swim in circles and gives anyone who touches the water CNS damage and open sores. For years it was an absolutely harmless, gentle aquatic vegetable; then when it's environment changed, it mutated into it's active, flaggellate "animal" form, attacking anything with a pulse. The history of this belief system is drenched in blood, coercion, and torture of their political enemies. The righteous wrath of Arcy is just the tip of the iceburg.

See you in "bible camp,"

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), July 30, 1998.

E, Being a new typist and poor proof-reader I missed the missing L in my nickname. Things ahead, at the minimum, will get interesting to watch if not truly ugly.

I don't have the good book handy, so forgive me if the following quote is not word for word. It is attributed to Jesus.

"For do not be as the Pharisees who pray on the street corners to be seen by men. Instead go into your closet and pray to your father, who seeing what you do in private, will reward you."

Would that most "Christians" follow this advice, many a historical bloodbath might have been averted.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), July 30, 1998.

Bravo, Arcy! Like me, now, you're being "persecuted for righteousness' sake" and that is a true blessing. See Matt. 5:10&11 To clear up any possible false impressions; I've lived in beautiful Washington State for 25 years, have moved around, and always attended a local church--six thus far. I have also worked in various jobs here. Never, ever have I heard fundamentalists, or anyone involved in any church recommend the vicious things stated by one of the detractors above. Where is your proof positive? Now, go ahead, slim me--give me another blessing; I'll pray for you. Arcy, and others who will receive: here's a quote from The Message (one of several Bibles I use for my morning study): "God keeps track of the decent folk' what they do won't soon be forgotten. In hard times, they'll hold their heads high; when the shelves are bare, they'll be full." Ps. 37:18&19 And we'll be ready and willing to help others, whether Christians or not! P.S. I have received many, many Emails from beautiful, caring fellow Christians expressing their concern about my being hurt on this Forum--more blessings! PTL!

-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), July 30, 1998.

Reading these posts causes me to give praise to God. If all we do is hang around in church and preach to the choir, who will ever come to know the truth?

The vicious posts are absolutely correct if you make one assumption: that Roman Catholicism = Christianity.

The world needs to understand that when Jesus comes on the clouds and His church rises to meet him in the air (very soon now), there will be buildings with steeples with people in them that are left behind. They will be singing spiritual songs and saying that Jesus is Lord, but those left behind lack one thing: THEY NEVER KNEW HIM!

People need to understand that Hitler's death camp guards were not Christians just because they sang "Silent Night" as they led the Jews to slaughter.

Disciples of Jesus sometimes mess up. James and John asked Jesus if He was going to call fire down from heaven on a Samaritan village that did not want to let Jesus enter or hear him. Jesus said "The son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." (Luke 9:56) Jesus told those two men that "You don't know what manner of spirit you are of."

You can carry around the name of Jesus, but you might not be carrying His spirit, you might have another spirit: one that wants to destroy.

So what is the knowledgeable person to do? What is a person who sees the evil of religion to do? Where should he go? The truth is in the bible. You must read it and you must pray. Then you must walk ahead, reading, praying.....and listening. Go to a church and see how much of what is said lines up with what the bible says. If the correlation is high, stay. If there is disagreement with the bible, get out of there, no matter how good the music sounds and how charismatic the preacher is.

That being said, Judgement is coming and God will do it. God will not be mocked. The only hope for the sinner is Jesus---getting into a living, active relationship with Him. Christ in you---the only hope. Religion by itself, without this relationship, is death to the religious and destruction to those it touches. It has been so before and it shall be so again in the near future.

Steve

-- Rev. Stephen L. Bening (Gammadim@AOL.com), July 30, 1998.

E.Coli must be interested in the subject, because he/she continued to read after your warning. E. Coli, I am a Christian, and see no resemblance to your post. I do not have, nor do I plan to use or stockpile guns. I think if anything, the Christians will be the ones who are hunted down, just like in Nazi Germany, the Inquisition, and Ancient Rome. Many Christians have been burned at the stake, tortured and imprisioned than you will ever know. Hitler and Stalin and their deadly religion of Humanism and Darwinism have caused in our time MILLIONS of deaths. What are you afraid of? You must have been very hurt by religion to have such a knee-jerk reaction to others biblical views.

-- Kay P. (Y2Kay@usa.net), July 30, 1998.

Pardon me, but just what does God have to do with Y2K? I have nothing against religion--that's your business--but what does God have to do with it? Actually, the Roman Catholic church has a lot to do with the calendar, but that still doesn't mean that God has anything to do with this issue. This issue is entirely based on an arbitrary and inaccurate calendar system invented by people. If you believe that 2000 has some kind of significance in God's scheme that is entirely a separate issue (unless you believe the Y2K problem is part of God's scheme for Armageddon in 2000 A.D.) and in which case why would God time Armageddon for a year based on an inaccurate calendar?

Bringing God into this discussion is silly and only serves to lessen your credibility on this issue. Y2K can only be solved by logical and calm action on the part of many people. Bringing emotion and religion into this will only encourage the panic that many people are afraid might happen anyway.

I'm not posting my e-mail address here because I don't want fanatics spamming me.

Thank you.

-- Just another American (american@anywhere.com), July 30, 1998.

Amy:

Regarding the virgin birth? What would cause me to believe that a young unmarried maiden, roaming around on a donkey with a man name Joseph, got pregnant by God, and then tell everyone in the world unless you believe it's true your going to hell? Since I was not there, did not witness the event, why should I believe that it really did happen? There is absolutely no proof that the event even happened. There was a man named Jesus I suppose through differing historical records, but there's abolutely no proof that he is God himself. I suggest all you Christians read Thomas Paines book called "Common Sense."

-- not a fool (heretic@heresy.com), July 30, 1998.

Dear "Heretic"

Short, but sweet, regarding the virgin birth

A Jewish Prophet, Isaiah, around 700 B.C., said "the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (which means God with us)

When the Jews translated the book of Isaiah into Greek in the Septuagint at about 200 B.C. (200 years before Jesus birth), the word for virgin was used.

Jews believed these passages were messianic--that they referred to the coming messiah---since the time of Isaiah---700 B.C.

The dead sea scrolls contain this part of Isaiah and have been dated in original text to 50 B.C.

Jesus is the only claimant to the title "Messiah" whose followers hold that he was born of a virgin, with God as His father, therefore he was "God with us".

The God who formed the first human has no problem forming one inside of a woman, with or without the help of a man---He can do anything He wants.

Steve

-- Rev. Stephen L. Bening (Gammadim@AOL.com), July 30, 1998.

I don't like to get into these theological disputes. I am quoting what I have learned and read. I am an athiest, but here goes: All young unmarried girls in then Palestine at that time were called by the title, "Virgin" Girls were not considered marrigable until they could prove their fertility by getting pregnant. A girl with an intact hymen was called a Virgin (Intacta) So sure there was a virgin Mary, as there were probably virgin Suzies and virgin Beckies. The idea of a god coming down to earth to dally with human women is repeated in the mythology of the Greeks, Romans, Sumarians and lots of other religions. Many sub gods were the children of their big gods. Nothing new about it. As far as the bible goes, You may or may not know that the Church had a meeting 300 years after Christ was born to decide what would or would not be put in the Bible. There is the Epistle of St. Thomas (remember doubting Thomas?) that was found in Egypt in 1945. In it he recounts the childhood of Jesus. There are tales of Jesus striking dead his playmates when Jesus would lose a foot race, or if he were laughed at. He would always raise them from the dead when their parents complained to Joseph. This Epistle was excluded from the Bible. Why I wonder? Did God only guide the hands of those apostles who wrote good stuff? If St. Thomas was guided by the devil, how come he is a Saint? I would protest, but that would make me a Protestant. It's all way too confusing for me. Pastor Chris: You went to a seminary, why don't you help me clear it up? Even Martin threw an inkwell at the devil, I don't blame him. He didn't even know about the Epistle of St. Thomas. Being an athiest is so much easier.

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), July 30, 1998.

I wrote the "Just another American" comment above.

I repeat: What does any of this have to do with Y2K?

If you really must be "spiritual" here or even talk about religion, why don't you try discussing relevant like the following:

1. The Christian calendar and how it relates to Y2K. 2. Other calendars 3. What makes people think 2000 is such a magical number? Why "must" 2000 A.D. be so significant religiously? The big events in history and in the bible didn't all happen in years with nice round numbers like 2000. 4. Why didn't the world end in the year 1000? 5. What are you worried about?

-- Buddy Y. (buddy@bellatlantic.net), July 30, 1998.

Don'tcha just love a lively moot debate?...

For the record,...go, Amy and Uncle and E.Coli and Buddy....

Too bad more of all of us haven't learned the potent aphorism, me included sometimes....."Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and annoys the pig." Works for both sides of the eternal and nauseating theological debate.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), July 30, 1998.

Arcy - AMEN, and AMEN. Thank you for such a wonderfully worded post, that this world NEEDS to hear. This love gospel you mentioned is in fact so dangerous  people NEED to know the truth, for only WITH the truth, can they be physically, mentally, and (most importantly) spiritually prepared. May He continue to bless you with a boldness of speech, and a hunger for truth.

Uncle Deedah  re: the question you asked about questioning the word of God compiled by other men  the bible is the inspired word of God, given by God, to write the words He wants us to know. You can chose to believe this, or not, but this is what the bible says. Re: why you should not prefer hell to an eternity with God (not the words you chose)  you should first find out who God is, what He has in store for your life, how only He can give you the peace this world so hungers after, and why He sent His precious Son to pay your sin debt  THEN  and only then, will you be able to answer for yourself, why you should prefer being with Him, instead of being in Hell, for all eternity.

E. Coli  Im not sure where you glean your information from in regards to Christianity, but if someone called themselves a Christian, and then behaved in the ways you described, I can tell you, they were not a true Christian. Ive said it before and Ill say it again, if I called myself a chicken mcnugget, that certainly doesnt make me one. A true follower of Christ Jesus, seeks to allow the Holy Spirit to change them into the person of morals that Jesus spoke about on the sermon on the mount. (Matthew 5:1-12).

Uncle Deedah(2nd post)  re: your quote of Matthew 6:5,6 (you were very close, and yes, Jesus Himself did in fact say this)  Jesus was instructing us (were all disciples, if were following Him) on the differences between true prayer to God, and phoney, attention-getting techniques that the Pharisees did indeed use, to show the onlookers what holy men they were. God is not impressed with the outside, God looks into the heart of man, and judges what He finds there.

Holly  praise God and amen  blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:10). Ive also lived in WA state for 32 of my 33 years, and while Ive never heard a group of people calling themselves Christians, outright advocate some of the vicious behaviors mentioned by E. Coli, I have known of cases where people do things that are inherently wicked, and then claim some kind of justification via God. Anyone can do this, they could steal cars in the name of Slade Gorton, but that doesnt make Slade Gorton the bad guy, that makes THAT person, deceived. People do and say things in the name of God all the time, but true followers of Christ reflect His light, His mercy, His forgiveness and His strength. People just enjoy lumping us all together, and using that as their excuse to avoid God, its much more easy that way.

Steve  bless you for having the boldness to speak the truth. The world in general DOES in fact associate Christians with the Roman Catholic church. Were no more alike than my shoe and the empire state building (but thats another forum).

Kay P.  bingo. Re: Christians being hunted down  I think youve hit the nail squarely on the head.

Just another American  what does God have to do with Y2K? Well, for the sake of not having this post 4 miles long  in a nutshell  God has everything to do with Y2K. If in fact, the outcome is as bad as many of the experts have said that they believe it will be, the ONLY hope for humanity is turning to the Lord for guidance, wisdom, strength, and comfort. Hes the only everlasting source we have, and Hes the only answer for a world thats headed straight for the fiery pit of hell. Bringing God into this discussion is certainly not silly, unless you or someone else has another form of everlasting, eternal peace, that can outshine God. I dont think you do, so for Christians, well continue to preach that He is our answer  to any question.

Amy & not a fool  you have questions about the virgin birth? Join the club. Since all of us are human, and think, reason, understand, and ponder  with human, finite minds, there isnt ONE of us who can 100% understand how the Spirit of God, impregnated Mary. However, His book says this is how it happened. Now we can either chose to believe Him, or not. Since Thomas Paine has no more of an infinite source of wisdom than any other human being, I would not be interested in reading his material, I would offer, that it would only serve to allow doubt into the hearts of the unsure, and cause them to drift further away from the Lord.

Steve (2nd post)  AMEN  He is God, and He can do whatever He wants.

Bill Solorzana  being an atheist is shirking your accountability before the Lord. I suppose it might be easier for you right now, in this life, but according the the word of God, when you stand before Him, youll be wishing youd have sought out the narrow path .

Buddy Y.  see my comments to Just another American.

Sincerely to all,

C. Rolfe

-- C. Rolfe (kncrolfe@msn.com), July 30, 1998.

Oh, gee wilickers I feel so slighted...not a word for the woman who called all theological debators on both sides silly? Come on now..you can do better than THAT. How about a good xian put-down for me.... And add to that a verse or two so I will feel real humbled.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), July 30, 1998.

TRUE believers don't consciously stir up strife! By reason of the new birth they've had their rebellious, stony heart replaced, and now their desire is to please their Saviour. They willingly pay the price in suffering scorn and scoffing just as we are seeing right here.

"Beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; how that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts". (Jude 17-17)

The 'spiritual' posts I've seen here have not been contentious. Arcy has clearly been trying to help people prepare for y2k... spiritually. He said he has nothing to sell and nothing to join, so certainly he isn't promoting 'religion' or any denomination. I sense that he really cares what happens to people, and yet a few among the many serious forum posters and lurkers responded with even more scoffing and mockery.

One poster, calling himself an athiest, asked pastor Chris to "help clear it all up". Well, if this fellow has a sincere interest in trying to understand the things of God, he's going about in a strange way. He and some others on this forum appear to want no help. They only want to vent their anger against God and have fun at the expense of their souls. Pastor Chris! Pastor Steve, Holly, Arcy, et al... remember the bible says: "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him" (Prov. 26:4).

These few scoffers don't need coddling, they need warning because Y2k is serious business and everyone will need God's help surviving. Yes, I think God is definitely in y2k... He may not have concocted computer errors that are going to be the immediate cause of any disaster, but, as someone on the forum said, He's all powerful and can stop it if He wants, and if He doesn't stop it, then He's responsible for it. Some of you scoffers feel that these men shud go to pastor Chris's forum to discuss religion, but that's apparently not where God wants us right now. You may think this debate is just an unfortunate problem that's keeping you from discussing y2k issues, but that's not true. Nothing is keeping you from posting whatever you want about y2k, and no one is making you read what is posted by believers; so, how can you say that thoughtful Christians, posting helpful spiritual information are disrupting the forum?

The fact is that scoffers hate God, and can't stand His holy name to be mentioned without crying "foul". The fact that believers are called to be meek doesn't mean they are to be weak. The fact that they are to turn the other cheek, go the second mile, and take the servant's place, doesn't mean they are not to earnestly contend for the faith. Paul said: "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance...how that the Lord, having saved the people out of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not"

These kinds of people cannot be made to feel shame, guilt, or the weight of their sin apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. Prayer is the best way to answer their vile remarks and not argument. Therefore, I suggest that believers use wisdom in formulating posts, and preface each post (quesion or answer) that contains spiritual statements or reference to God or Jesus, with a suitable notation such as: "SPIRITUAL POST" or "RELIGIOUS MATERIAL" (just be creative). This will relieve us from blame for disrupting the forum but surely not from future attack.

-- Merle (merle.b@ usa.net), July 31, 1998.

Merle...all the posting with Bible quotes turns people off. They are here to cause contention, discord, they don't want people to talk or think about Y2K. They only want to push there holier than thou religion on everyone else. You can post all the Bible quotes you want, but you can't prove one damn word of it. You cannot prove anything that anyone wrote and if were true or not. If you people want to believe the Bible, that's fine, but don't push this crap on the rest of us. You people are causing trouble, No one but your little church group will listen to you with any kind of credibility. You people are self-abusers, there's something in your whole being that causes you to want to be verbally put down. Maybe you think you can go to God and whine and say, "Gee God, I went out and got beat up just for you!" Aren't I special? It's kind of funny to read posts from some of you that are trying to tell your brethern to back off, even you must be embarrassed about your whole lot, I know I would be.

-- justsittingbackandlaughing (heretic@heresy.com), July 31, 1998.

Dear Heretic:

Man, you told him off, didn't you? You're my kind of guy! What's your real name? You sure sound like Bardou. Are you really a guy? I'd like to ask you this, and I want the truth: Do you really think we can be sure there is no God? If it turns out to be true... what's gonna happen? You seem to be all prepared for y2k but what about eternity? Have you thought about how hot it's gonna be down there? No A/C, no water, total darkness, endless screems, no communication, total isolation, and pain that you can't imagine. I've heard people who are going to Hell say: "well, I'll have plenty of company down there", but that doesn't make much sense if you can't communicate or feel a touch, or experience love, or even talk for all the pain and agony. Tell me the truth, Heretic, should I trust what you tell me, or should I believe the bible, trust Christ, and be sure of heaven?

-- Bunny (bunny.b@usa.net), July 31, 1998.

Merle - amen.

-- Carla Rolfe (kncrolfe@msn.com), July 31, 1998.

OK, so the point here is that Y2K is going to cause major problems and the best way to get throught those problems is to seek God. Fine, I have no problem with people seeking God for whatever reason. But, back to the point of this forum: Will Y2K cause worldwide chaos, etc. etc.? The religious arguments here are coming from the point of view that chaos from Y2K is inevitable. There lies the flaw in your premise that this topic has any relevance here.

-- Buddy Y. (buddy@bellatlantic.net), July 31, 1998.

Bunny:

I don't think Heretic can tell you what to believe, or whom to believe in, you have to find your own place in God's heart. As for hell, I believe we are living in hell right now, and the fire is going to get even hotter come Y2K. Some of those on this forum are going to be asking "where are you God in my desperate time of need?" Don't you think the Jews were asking God during their time of trouble? What about all those people burned at the stake? What about all the wars, acts of crime, everything you can imagine that hurts mankind, people ask God the same question, "where are you?" Yea, I will never leave you nor forsake you..........we shall see when the rubber meets the road, who will be cursing God or praising him. Bardou

P.S. There's other people on this forum that sound like me and agree with what I am saying. We're all have a brain, when the time comes, use it. Doesn't the Lord help those who help themselves? Furthermore, I am not my brother's keeper, it's every man for himself. And I'm not a guy, I'm a gal, a married one, and my husband and I think alike. Thanks God for that!

-- Playedbythegame (refusetogive@baloney.com), July 31, 1998.

Buddy: You don't seem to get the gist of what we are saying here! All believers are not followers of Gary North. I for one, don't share his position on the possibility of D & G, nor do I share his theological position. However, he and I are probably brothers in Christ even though we are miles apart on doctrinal issues.

The glue that holds true believers together is not denominational labels or religious affiliation, it's Christ in us corporately. It's the common pulse-beat of the indwelling Spirit of God that we share, and not necessarily the same philosophies of life.

Some on this forum are solely interested in physical survival, and others, like me, are concerned about the spiritual aspect of y2k and are trying to offer help. Please don't try to silence us. We want to help with y2k preparations just like everyone else. I'm personally grateful for many of the posts teach physical survival techniques. I've learned a great deal, but you haven't addressed the need for preparing spiritually, and this is where we can help. Y2k won't stop on 1-1-00, and even though it may not be chaotic, it will cause much anguish for which people will need God's intervention to cope.

Believers have nothing to boast of or take credit for, but we know how to put others in touch with Him who has called us out of darkness into His marvelous light, and we would prefer that our message not to be hindered by scoffers.

-- Roy Cave (roy@techcomm.net), July 31, 1998.

The saddening thing for me as I watch these exchanges is how clear they make it that American society is already fragmented, balkanized. The only thing providing cohesion now is a comfortable standard of living for all. When that goes, what will follow? Reformation II and a Third Rude (I mean, Great) Awakening is our only hope.

...But He always has been our only hope. We just try to pretend otherwise. We were wrong.

-- David Webb (e2acwebb@fre.fsu.umd.edu), July 31, 1998.

I hope nobody is offended by my innocent questions, but what is the minimum time permitted between conversion and death?

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), August 01, 1998.

Here we go again...

I am really put out! We Christians have no right judging others. Remember Judge not, least ye be judged? And, with whatever measure of charity you give, you will recieve (that's paraphased). I think labeling people as this believer and that believer is insulting, how do you know what I believe in my heart?

And to those of you who are atheistic or fence-sitting agnostics... quit shoving your secular beliefs down MY throat! I have every right to believe in my Savior AND the virgin birth as you have to disbelieve it. And since Ed Yourdon has not posted any particular restraint on religous discussion I see no problem with this type of thread. If properly labeled you can skip any offending thread.

Just everyone get off their high horses and get down to the problem at hand. How do we get the general populace awake and mobilized about this problem so we can avoid the terrible possibilities that are threatened? I don't care if you're Catholic, Jew, Atheist, Mormon, 7thday, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist, Methodist, Buddist, Muslem, etc. I only care if your an American and if you're willing to pledge your life for your God, your Family and your Country! (2 out of 3 ain't bad as they say and no offense to those who are not Americans, I use the term because that is what I am).

-- Dianne Smith (benedict@theriver.com), August 01, 1998.

Diane: No one is on their high horse. Since we have the priviledge of free speech in this country, I reserve the right to give my 02 and so does everyone else. So, say what you want to say, don't worry anymore about stepping on anyone's toes, insulting anyone, it's all a free for all. I can't really do anything for my country, but I can do for myself and my family. Since 50 percent of our income goes to pay taxes (involuntarily I might add), then that's enough of help from me. So everyone, hop back up that high horse and let's go for it!!!

-- Bardou (bardou@baloney.com), August 01, 1998.

The biblical experiences that resemble what we face in the Y2K crisis are not "Armageddon" or "Apocalypse", but the various cultural crises that the people of Israel faced as they wavered between serving the Creator-God, their heavenly Father who brought them out of bondage with a strong arm leading them to the promised land, and the jumble of gods (ferility, wealth, military power, etc.) that they created for themselves or adopted from the spiritually blind peoples around them.

Joseph, after being "sold across the desert" by his brothers, finds out about an impending environmental catastrophe from the visions of a non-believer (Pharoah), and uses his knowledge and leadership gifts to save not only his own (extended) family, but many of his neighbors as well.

The Judges and the Prophets give their fellow Israelites warnings (sometimes for several decades) and then provide hope and practical leadership when the predicted catastrophes came upon the land (Elijah and the long drought, Jeremiah/Ezekiel and the Babylonian captivity, Daniel/Ezra/Nehemiah and the return of the exiles to Zion). For those who trust "the light of the world", we have an inexhaustible resource for hope and stimulus to prepare, so that when the time comes, the church of Jesus Christ is not flat on its back and in shock, like 90% plus of our neighbors will be.

Those of us who live in North America (NAFTAland) have been embedded all our lives in a culture that is largely dominated by intense worship of the gods of "technique" - whether incarnated as science, political schemes, or social engineering (see the writings of J. Ellul for a good introduction to this thesis). Just as the Lord plagued the Egyptians in a way that mocked their favorite gods (each plague corresponds to one of the Egyptian deities, from the Nile river to the frogs, flies, and lice), so the worshippers of "technique", whether clueless like Dilbert's boss, narrowly competent like Dilbert himself, or venal to the core like our media/beltway ruling class are about to be sent to the woodshed as their gods fail them in huge, visible, and severely consequential ways. And all the people whose life styles rest on a tacit worship of the same gods will suffer in the same way (including clueless Christians).

-- Frank Meyer (Dotruth777@aol.com), August 01, 1998.

Everybody must go to the chalkboard now and write 100 times....

NEVER try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

You will all have to stay after school until this is accomplished, whether you are a "true believer" or a "true skeptic"

Remember, the Principal has a rather large paddle just for recalcitrant children who refuse to learn. And notes will go home to your parents.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), August 02, 1998.

After many failures and much wasted time I hereby report that I've done it, my pig is now happily singing away! It was remarkably easy once I decided to employ US Government techniques and stratagies to the problems I encountered during "Operation Song Hog" Here is how it is done:

1) Classify the pig's inability to pronounce the lyrics as a dis-ability under the ADA. (This will not work when dealing with Canadian pigs.)

2)Declare that the tune is "non-mission critical".

Victory!!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), August 03, 1998.

ROFLMAO,...Uncle, you've outdone yourself!!!! Bravo!

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), August 03, 1998.

I had "religion" when I was growing up. I had assumed it was the real thing. I sincerely sympathize for people who have accepted Atheism, humanism,etc., and any religion that calls itself a Christian religion and truly is not. They've bought a bill of goods that will leave them empty and left out of the greatest blessing God has given to man. Arcy quoted scripture Galatians 6:7 (Do not be deceived,. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. This book of the New Testament was written by Paul the apostle to the churches in Galatia. (People who were already believers.) Paul like many fake Christians was a religious Jew who persecuted the followers of Christ. From Acts chapter 9, we are told Paul was on his way to Damascus to pick up Christians and imprison them. Paul was a "religious" jew, highly educated, and had elite standing in the Jewish community. He had a one on one encounter with Jesus. He was TOTALLY changed (forever). The REAL Jesus oozes with love to all those He has touched. All of grace, meaning don't even begin to think you can please God outside of the forgiveness that is given in Christ. It's an insult to the love of God, which exceeds any love you could have ever known or imagined in your life existence outside of Christ. Paul prayed that believers would know this love that passes all understanding. (Meaning in plain english, you can't reason in your mind how its possible for this greatness of God's unsurpassing love to exist. The point of my post is that although Arcy made excellant scripture references, they were a bit out of context in that he warns of the judgement of our righteous God but neglected the instruction that Jesus always told those he touched. Go tell what good things the Lord has done for you.

-- M.Doe (M.Doe@usa.net), August 18, 1998.

I find something very interesting in this post, in the very beginning Arcy does have a disclaimer "Caution, Spiritual Post", why then do you "scoffers" even bother, we as Christians believe and trust in the Lord, and the rest of you have your own beliefs, so why attack people like Arcy and C. Rolfe? I am sure a lot of you people have experienced the "denials" from your families and friends in regard to Y2K, why is that any different then your denials of Jesus Christ. When I am witnessing about Y2K, I also like to stress that God and his son are still in charge, yes lets make provisions but the ultimate power still is in the Lord's hands. We as Christians should be concerned about people spending eternity in hell, not just how they will eat in the year 2000. Help me Christians out there, can't find the verse right now, but basically the one that states two will be working in the fields, one will be taken and the other left. What a great loss to know that someone you love will be left behind to go through things worse than Y2K.

Another question for Christians, Why are the pastors not telling the people about Y2K (if they know)? Aren't they responsible for the sheep in their churches?

-- sarah (raptureus@lord.com), August 22, 1998.

Sarah,

Christians have always been, and will awlays be, attacked for their views. Jesus told us we would be - and He was right... :-)

It doesn't matter if 50,000 people slam on a Christian... if 1 person is blessed by the truth of Christ, convicted by the Holy Spirit, and turns to Jesus, all the harassment, insults, slander and persecution is well worth it.

Keep the faith -

In His peace Carla Rolfe

come and be blessed: http://members.tripod.com/~Carla_B

-- Carla Rolfe (kncrolfe@msn.com), August 22, 1998.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Corinthians 1:18

-- Sam (samm@Bible.truth), August 22, 1998.

In response to Sarah above who asks: "Why are the pastors not telling the people about y2k?" Go to this link. It explains the view that I think most pastors have. They are simply afraid of causing a panic until all the facts are in. If Larry Burkett and Dr. Dobson come out with a serious y2k warning, then we will see a lot more movement in the churches. www.worldmag.com/world/issue/08-22-98/cover_1.asp

-- q603926 (876260@1975.676), August 24, 1998.

The most difficult people to speak to about Y2K are "techies" and pastors (I am a pastor).

Techies are too close to the problem. Pastors don't want to look stupid.

Pastors have unique social, political and spiritual realities they must deal with when ANY issue is presented to them. Most are not entrepreneural; they are much more cautious. Therefore, they will wait until the "facts" are in, but there is a much bigger problem.

Pastors (in general) don't like issues that rock the boat. They don't like things that scare people. They don't like issues that divide their congregations. They especially don't like issues that don't have a Biblical basis. If you can't quote chapter and verse, then don't bring it up.

But, to be fair, there are many pastors who do have the ability to see Y2K and are solid enough to bring it up to their flock. You need to pray for these pastors because they are the ones the rocks are being thrown at. Some are even losing their jobs over this issue. Sad, but true.

This pastor is trying everything he can to get the word out. Please encourage your pastor, elder or deacon to visit my Ministry Leader Y2K web site at:

http://www.lifetel.com/y2k/y2kpastors.htm

Blessings to you all!

-Pastor Chris

-- Pastor Chris (pastorchris@lifetel.com), August 24, 1998.

THE ONLY ANSWER IS ISLAM, NOT CHRISTIANITY

Christianity is a failed religion. Islam is fastest growing religion in world and US today. In 50 years majority of people will be Muslim. And y2k means that we have chance to make this 100% much sooner.

We will turn America into an Islamic Republic, responsible only to Allah and obedient to his will. Secular democracy will fail in y2k and the time for Godly rule shall begin. Only if you follow ALLAH (God) do you have the answer!! Infidels shall convert or perish as is ordained in the Holy Book, the Holy Quran has revealed to Mohammad (pbuh). It is written that all shall have one chance to convert to the True Faith of Allah and renounce infidel beliefs. Here is your chance, renounce evilness and submit to the peace of Allah

Praise be to Allah, and Mohammad (pbuh) His Prophet. Allah is all-conquering.

-- mohammet kubir (mohammet@srand1.com), October 06, 1998.

I was reared in this country with people who can quote 'scripture' and have recently converted to Islam. I would not have converted if I had come across the preceeding poster. My Islam loves all 'people of the book', Christian and Jew. And I might add says that there have been thousands of prophets speaking to all peoples. The message that was made clear to me was: BE VERY VERY CAREFUL WHEN YOU TRY TO JUDGE.

We are all servants of God, or if you speak Arabic--Allah.

Fundamentalists of any religion seem the strain the Commandment about Taking the Lord God's Name in vain.

Our delimma and burden is to be both physical and spirit. This gordian knot has been the root of religion, war, and love.

Please Brother of Islam do not be so strident and hostile with your enthusiasm.

With regards to the problem of material and immaterial: There is a saying:

Trust in God(Allah) but tie up your camel.

-- julienne (bootman@value.net), October 06, 1998.

I can't believe someone "resurrected" this old thread.

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), October 06, 1998.

Donna - I am so excited - I thought only people from Iowa had sayings about trying to teach a pig to sing. It's my favorite expression!

Uncle Deedah - depends by what clock or calendar you go by. God is timeless so you should be OK.

Pastor Chris - you are a joy, a hewel, a gem. Thank you

Now for my 2 cents: No, Arcy, God will not be mocked and thank you very much for your, I think, sincere desire to offer people a light. I do believe that even more than water, we should be prepared within ourselves, and with our God. I do not agree with your interpretations most of the time - I think you must have a real love for people but it keeps getting drowned out when you get drawn into these debates. God can't be debated - he is the Great I Am.

And finally, Julienne, I wanted to say thank you for your compassionate post, AND for your timely advice about trusting God and tying up the camel. (Except here, it would be "pig".)

-- Melissa (financed@forbin.com), October 07, 1998.

Did it happen on the third day?

-- Max Dixon (Ogden, Utah USA) (Max.Dixon@gte.net), October 07, 1998.

"This nation has thumbed its nose at Almighty God," (No, they just don't care.)

"...and lives in a deluded state of licentious hedonism." (I'd call it "pain avoidance" or "ego gratification".)

"Some participants have dared to blaspheme God and scoff at His Holy Word..." (No, we're just trying to piss off guys like YOU--)

"...acts that should not be tolerated without righteous indignation." (--and it works!)

"Some (mistakingly) see God only as light and love..." (Well, I have been wrong before...)

"..one who understands human weakness and takes everyone to Heaven when they die." (A nice god would.)

"Those who preach only a gospel of love are unwittingly 'loving sinners into hell'. They ignore the fact that God is also "a consuming fire" and has promised vengeance upon all His enemies." (beating people with the jehovah stick is fun, huh!)

Tell you what-- you keep your god, and I'll keep mine. And may the best god win.

XOXOX

-- Max Dixon (Ogden, Utah USA) (Max.Dixon@gte.net), October 07, 1998.

=Islam is fastest growing religion in world and US today. In 50 years majority of people will be Muslim.=

Point one: correct. Point two: very possible, if current trends continue.

=We will turn America into an Islamic Republic, responsible only to Allah and obedient to his will. Secular democracy will fail in y2k and the time for Godly rule shall begin= Seems that our Muslim friend needs a refresher on Constitutional law.

Amendment One:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now doesnt that make you people feel better, knowing our forefathers in their wisdom decided to protect the freedom of ALL religions, so that one religion would not be able to hush the voice of others? So come on gang, lets support that battered and tattered US Constitution, or you just may end up living in The Islamic Republic of America. And yes, we must even support the right of witches to practice Wicca, you too, Arcy.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), October 07, 1998.

THE EASY SOLUTION TO ALL OF THIS IS SIMPLE....PICK UP YOUR BIBLE AND READ IT.... LET THE WORD JUDGE YOU........ CAN I PLEASE GET AN AMEN///???????

-- carrie (privacy@aol.com), October 07, 1998.

Ummmm I guess the 'Answer' after all of this time, is NO NO NO. Amen and eternal grief.

-- Hail Save Ya (Okey@dokey.doo), November 20, 1998.

"You need to pray for these pastors because they are the ones the rocks are being thrown at. Some are even losing their jobs over this issue. Sad, but true. "

I'm one of those "heretics" or "atheist", take your pick. But I respect you greatly from your posts Pastor Chris. You can discuss Y2K without thumping your bible, and discuss rationally. I don't pray, but I can offer you my words of support. You're doing a great service to more than just your congregation with your webpage and contributions here. You're reaching christians about Y2K and know how to do it. You're doing your part, and the techies and "experts" are doing thiers by reaching the likes of me.

Flame wars on religion is conterproductive in this Y2K issue and forum. This thread warned of it's religious nature so as to prevent such flames. Why do any of you feel the need to try to change christian's minds? All of us need support and hope if we're going to survive Y2K. Religious beliefs and associations provide this to a lot of people. Religion is just too personal, with just too many flavors of beliefs to be argued on a forum like this. Donna is right.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), November 21, 1998.

I have mixed feelings about this thread being resurrected (unavoidable pun intended).

It matters not to me what people believe, although I side with Aldous Huxley, that faith is critical in human life...and belief and "belief systems" fraught with problems.

It's okay with me for anyone and everyone to "think, believe what they will. I would like to accorded the same treatment. any more in my life I am pretty selective in who I tell about my thoughts, my spiritual perceptions. Seems as private a matter as anything else in human existence. I think the world would be a lot better off if everyone would keep more to themselves. My plug nickel's worth.

Harm none,...and THEN do what you will.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 21, 1998.

I see I typed slower than I was thinking...let me clarify...I think everyone would be a lot better off if thoughts on spiritual matters were kept more private, perhaps only expressed among intimates, and not subject to the eternal, extremely time-consuming, and pointless debate.

Except that you harm none, do what you will.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 21, 1998.

Sorry guys,

I just have to respond, now that Chris brought this one to the surface again!

What does any of this have to do with Y2K?  Because a good portion of the global population is going to have to face their FEAR OF DEATH before 2000 rolls over. Paying some attention to ones spirit is appropriate to all the other Y2K preparedness preparations. Love & tolerance works. Hate & judgement does not work. -- Diane

P.S. Lots of other teachers on this planet, all paid attention to in different religions.

* * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * '

Those who preach only a gospel of love are unwittingly 'loving sinners into hell'. -- Arcy

[Gee, here I thought a gospel of love is EXACTLY what Christ/Jesus/ Yeshua taught. My mistake. See also the Aramaic version of The Lords Prayer below.]

God is also "a consuming fire" and has promised vengeance upon all His enemies. -- Arcy

[An Old Testament vision of Jehovah. May or may not be accurate.]

Those who see Him as One who would never consign men to hell, might ask themselves why He didn't intervene when the Titanic sank; or when 6,000 perished in the earthquake in Japan; or when 6,000,000 jews perished; or a thousand other disasters? God rules... -- Arcy

[Or perhaps God teaches. And allows us to learn by our mistakes. IF there is reincarnation -- and there is strong Biblical and Historical evidence that those references were later edited out for political reasons -- then, the Divine encourages us to come back until we get it and learn to make different collective choices.]

He will never allow wicked men to ultimately prevail. -- Arcy

[I agree. He is more likely to let us learn that wicked doesnt work. Love does.]

The rest will be paid at the final judgment, when unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire and their cries of anguish will go unheard. -- Arcy

[Help me here Bible scholars. Did Christ/Jesus/Yeshua -- himself, not followers -- talk about a lake of fire or cries of anguish will go unheard? Dont remember that coming from him. Not consistent with his teachings. Thought he taught that even the lowest and the last, the meek, will inherit, etc., etc.]

God will have the last laugh... -- Arcy

[I suspect, if He has the sense of humor I think He does, the laughter can already be heard. Did you know the Aramaic word for God is ALAHA? Christ/Jesus/Yeshua spoke Aramaic and Hebrew. Not English or German. The word God is derived from the German word goot.]

* * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * '

Other suggested insightful reading:

The Sermon On The Mount -- The Key To Success In Life by Emmet Fox The Ten Commandments -- The Master Key To Life by Emmet Fox Power Through Constructive Thinking by Emmet Fox Find And Use Your Inner Power by Emmet Fox The Ancient Prayer Of Jesus The Lords Prayer  by Rocco A. Errico

* * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * '

Excerpted and Adapted from The Ancient Prayer Of Jesus The Lords Prayer by Rocco A. Errico ) 1975

In this simple book, the author returns to the actual meaning of the Lords Prayer that Jesus originally spoke in the Aramaic language. What he wished to convey to us has been either obscured in translation or obliterated by a lack of understanding the cultural significance and multiple meanings of these words used in the Middle East.

[All of the following references come from this book.]

Our Father In Heaven AWOON DWASHMAYA

Hallowed Be Thy Name NITHKADASH SHMAKH

Thy Kingdom Come TAYTHEY MALCOOTHAKH

Thy Will Be Done, As In Heaven, So On Earth NEHWEH SEVIANAKH AICANNA DWASHMAYA OP BARAH

Give Us Bread For Our Needs, From Day To Day HAVLAN LAKHAMA DSONKANAN YOMANA

And Forgive Us Our Offenses, As We Forgive Our Offenders WASHBOKLAN KHOBEN: AICANNA DOP KHNAN SHBAKN LKHAYAVEN

And Do Not Let Us Enter Into Temptation, But Deliver Us From Error OOLA TALAN LNISUNA ELLA PASAN MIN BISHA

For Thine Is The Kingdom, And the Power, And The Glory, Forever And Ever MITTOL DILAKHYE MALCOTHA OKHELA OOTISHBOKHTA: LALAM ALMIN

Amen AMEN

* * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * '

Literally, as written in Rocco A. Errico in The Ancient Prayer Of Jesus The Lords Prayer, the authors actual word for word translation is:

Our Father who [is] throughout the universe, Let your name be set apart. Come your kingdom (counsel). Let your desire be, as in the universe, also on the earth. Give us bread for our necessities this day. And free us from our offenses, as also we have freed our offenders. And do not let us enter our temptation (worldliness), but set us free from error. For belongs to you the kingdom, power, and song, from ages to ages. Sealed in faithfulness.

The longer version, stated previously, adds the additional, multiple meanings of the Aramaic words and expands upon the fuller meaning of the Lords Prayer as discussed in the book.

As outlined in this wonderful little book, each of the Aramaic words has several meanings, for example:

* AWOON literally means Our Father, not a fearsome, almighty and gloriously distant God.

* DWASHMAYA means heaven, universe or everywhere.

* NITHKADASH SHMAKH is a phrase meaning holy be thy name or let thy name be set apart.

* KADISH is the word for holy and means to be set aside for a specific purpose, dedicated, distinct or separate.

* Gods name is to be kept holy, used in truth, not used falsely or in telling an untruth. DAGALOOTHA is the term for in vain actually means in falsehood. i.e. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain (falsehood).

* MALCOOTHA the word for kingdom also means counsel and advice and comes from the root word meaning angel, king and counselor. i.e. Seek first the kingdom (counsel) of God and all else shall be added unto you, and The kingdom (counsel) of God is within you. [Tap into the inner guidance always available to you].

* SEVIANAKH means thy will, thy desire, thy wish, thy delight or thy pleasure. The will of God should be properly understood as The Fathers good desire for His children. What does a father wish for his children? What do you wish for your children? You wish them to get along, be healthy, prosperous, to have peace of mind, to understand, to relate well with others, to find peace and harmony as brothers and sisters, to develop wisdom and to journey safely on this planet. A Father desires good things.

* SHMAYA means sky, heaven, cosmos, universe and metaphorically means prosperity, peace and harmony. The ancients used the term heaven to indicate a universal state and personal consciousness of peace and harmony.

* LAKHMA means understanding and truth and spiritual bread as well as bread -- in the East a large loaf can feed or be shared with as many as 40 people. i.e. Man does not live by bread alone.

* KHOBEN means debts, faults, mistakes or offenses.

* SHBAKN means forgive, to free, to untie, to loosen, or to release. Forgiveness frees. Genuine forgiveness heals. Nature does not blame or point a finger, it only seeks to repair wounds. Holding grudges or guilt only causes us to suffer mentally and physically. We always keep the original copy of whatever we send out to others, be it hate and resentment, or love and forgiveness. i.e. Reap what you sow.

* TALAN comes from the root word AL which has many connotations: to enter into, to attack, to wrestle and used as a preposition means on, upon, in, by, alongside of or on top of.

* NISUNA means trials and temptation, and connotes materialism or worldliness.

* PASAN means part us, separate us or set us free.

* BISHA usually translated as evil actually means bad, mistake, error, immature and unripe. * AMEN comes from the Aramaic word AMENA which means faithful, truthful, sincere, sealed in truth and trustworthy. It says that Ill be faithful to my side of the bargain or Ill back up everything Ive said. It is a commitment to a completed oral agreement. More than just It is so or So be it. i.e. Anything you pray for and ask, believe that you will receive it, and it will be done for you. Amen.

Additional Aramaic words that enlighten our understanding are:

* SLOTHA is the word for prayer which literally means to set a trap, to set your mind like a trap and wait patiently to catch the thoughts of God, to make an adjustment, to focus or to tune in. A modern way to put it would be to select a channel or to set your mind on the beam.

DINA is the word for religion and means balance -- a balance within our own beings and a just, balanced relationship with others.

The Aramaic word for God, ALAHA, is pronounced ALLAH in Arabic and ALOHIM in Hebrew. The closest meaning to ALAHA is Essence, Substance, or Premise. An Easterner, when asked, would reply ALLAH is my very breath, and my very heartbeat, and my very life. The English language word God is actually derived from the German word GOOT meaning The Good One and does not express the full meaning and understanding of its Aramaic equivalent. [Jesus never spoke German]. ALAHA is everywhere present and is the essence of all things.

We are often instructed to pray in Jesus name. The Aramaic word BESHEMI (in my name) actually means according to my technique, my way, my method, my approach or my system of doing things or with my kind of understanding. Jesus encouraged his disciples to pray to the Father in his name, but he meant for them to pray in the manner he taught them, which was a direct and intimate communion with life forces, the essence -- ALAHA.

The answer to prayer lies in experiencing the same awareness Jesus felt: that God is a loving Father; that God is the source of all good; that man gets what he expects; and that man can expect good things. He knew that mans capacity to receive good is limited only by his failure to accept it and claim it. The kingdom is within you or among you means that it is within your reach, but that you must act to tune into its guidance.

The Lords Prayer contains the essence of Jesus entire teachings. It is a capsule summary of the message he preached for three-and-a-half- years. When he taught his disciples to pray, he instructed them in his method of prayer. A true understanding of the Lords Prayer guides us with a genuine way to pray. It contains the message of the whole Bible. It is the meaning and balanced essence of religion.

* * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * ' * * '

Remember your spirit -- whatever happens -- and no matter what you believe, or how you believe it. Back to Y2K preparations...

Diane *Create Community, Prepare To Share, Be Y2K Aware*

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 21, 1998.

I think that is the first time I ever heard that the New Testament was written in Aramaic. I always thought it was written in Greek??

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), November 21, 1998.

An ironic title for the types of responses this thread is receiving - from all sides.

-- Christine (vaganti01@aol.com), November 21, 1998.

Gayla, you're right, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Aramaic. The referenced books are not authored by true followers of Christ, but by New Age adherents who attempt to distort the true message of Jesus to suit their beliefs.

There have been a series of writings dating back to the first century Gnostics who attempted to but their own "spin" on Jesus's teachings. They issued many letters using the names of the apostles Paul, Thomas, etc. in an attempt to fool people into accepting their doctrines. Earlier in the thread, Bill mentions one of those letters (the epistle of "Thomas") when referring to some false stories about the childhood of Jesus. The apostles, who knew Jesus personally, vehemently refuted the Gnostics and their writings and labeled them as false teachers, but many of their beliefs have persisted through the ages.

The "editing" that was mentioned was what the early church did to weed out all of the fradulent letters that were circulating at the time. They didn't alter individual letters, but did set apart letters that they knew to be authentic and formed what is today known as the Bible. Many of today's false religions base their beliefs of reincarnation and Eastern mysticism on the interpretations of some of the rejected letters, those that the church clearly recognized as being false.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), November 23, 1998.

"Sorry guys,

I just have to respond, now that Chris brought this one to the surface again! "

Umm...I didn't "resurect" it, someone else before me did. And shame on me for not noticing this was an old dead thread.

Sheesh Diane, I'll remember to clam up when religious subjects pop up next time...didn't mean to get you so stired up.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), November 23, 1998.