Someone had to do it.

I've opened a new forum (just like this one) for those of us who don't mind bringing the Bible, God, Jesus, et al, into the Y2K discussion.

Have fun, keep it clean, keep it focused.

Blessings!

-Pastor Chris

You can find it at http://www.lifetel.com/y2k2000.htm

-- Pastor Chris (pastorchris@lifetel.com), July 22, 1998

Answers

Thank you for the new website, it looks good. Since you are listed as a Pastor on your new website, how about a statement of faith or a link to your church website so that we can know what flavor of Christian you are?

-- Paul Powell (PaulPowell@Hotmail.com), July 23, 1998.

The link is near the bottom of the page. :)

http://www.lifetel.com/y2k2000.htm

-- Pastor Chris (chrisbr@ptinet.net), July 23, 1998.

Here's something we believers need to be ready for, if we are unable to fuel our cars. (My church is 6 miles away; too far for this great granny to hike, especially here in the Pacific Northwest during winter!) Will we be ready and willing to walk over to a neighborhood church?...an unheated one?...no lights?...only a non-electric piano?...toilet unusable?...etc. Will we be willing to worship with others who are not part of "our" denomination? I surely hope so! Y2K could have a very positive effect of breaking down denominational walls, getting down to "basics", resulting in many unchurched wanting to be there with us! In addition, my hope and prayer is that ALL of those neighborhood churches will have huge food banks, including water, non-prescription meds, paper goods, etc. I want to be positive and believe great good will come out of this debacle!

-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), July 23, 1998.

This is to Holly....The moment the "unchurched" are turned away because your group only has enough to feed the "churched," those people will have such a run on your stores like you have never seen. Watch the news every Thanksgiving, there's always those appeals to the community that there's never enough to feed the hungry. Woman, you better get down on your hands and knees and start praying to God to cleanse your heart from all unrighteousness. You are friggin worried about having a place to go worship, and are so concerned about YOURSELF, that you don't have one ounce of compassion for anyone. So why don't you get off your self-righteous horse and take care of real business. By the time you mark everyone down on your little righteous myopic list, you may as well go somewhere else to spread your self-righeous bullshit!

-- aurora spoonfed (seenthelight@webtv.com), July 24, 1998.

I don't mean any disrespect but why do you have to go to churh to pray? Didn't the Lord tell those to go into a closet and pray and not be like the hypocrites who go to the temples?

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), July 24, 1998.

If we don't have transportation then the HouseChurch that is so prevalant in the Third World countries and in the Bible will become a reality in America. We have had "church at home" many times and our children love it because they are allowed to participate. I think many folks who would never come to a traditional church in a building would be very comfortable coming to a home. The Lord says "where two or more are gathered in my name, there I will be also."

-- Susan (jclont@mastnet.net), July 24, 1998.

I resent the term "unchurched," and furthermore, we ought to thank God for the unchurched because they keep things on an even keel. Remember the Dark Ages when people were burned at the stake because people thought differently? We already have a bunch of "churched" people in the White House, and their religion is "socialism." That is, those who work and those who live off those that work, known as "redistribution of the wealth." This country was founded on the princiapl of private property rights, and that of course is taken away from us everytime they legislate a new law. Where are all you Christians and why are you not complaining about this in God's chosen country? That is the fundamental problem, as we are up to our arm pits in socialism in this country, surely that is not God's blessing. Doesn't the scriptures say "thou shalt not steal?"

Holly, your mind is like a steel trap, completely closed. And you can add my name if you haven't already to your list of "do not read." You will learn a lot from having such a closed mind.

-- Barb-Douglas (bardou@yahoo.com), July 24, 1998.

Some of you folks owe Holly an apology. Her post was thankful that the unchurched would be in the church. Please re-read her words, and maybe next time you'll be a bit more careful in your rush to judgement.

-- Pastor Chris (chrisbr@ptinet.net), July 24, 1998.

No apology from me, I'm wondering how many "unchurched" people come to your church every Sunday claiming they are the "churched?" I bet your pews are loaded with them! I wonder how many different churches Holly and you have visted every Sunday (Mormons? Jehovah Witnesses? Pentacostal? Church of Scientology? Buddhists? and Saturday (Jewish, Seventh-day Adventist). Reading between the lines, I doubt you have ever worshipped with any of them. Christ said "O yea hypocrites, get away from me, I know you not."

-- Barb-Douglas (bardou@yahoo.com), July 24, 1998.

Someone said: "why do you have to go to churh to pray? Didn't the Lord tell those to go into a closet and pray and not be like the hypocrites who go to the temples?"

I'm assuming this was a sincere question.

The "church" is my "family", and who better to be with during a crisis than family! There are many times the bible talks about praying as a church body. Christians are supposed to do that too. The verse about the hypocrites has more to do with praying for show to be seen by men, when the attitude of the heart is for self-aggrandizement, not sincerely seeking God. This you will see if you read the whole context.

-- Kay P (Y2Kay@usa.net), July 24, 1998.

For all of you people who think the church is a bunch of hypocrites, you're right. I can think of a number of things the church has done wrong in the past. I don't think for one minute that God looks down at all the Christian churches in this country and says " I'm so proud of them." We have all "sinned and come short of the glory of God." The way I see it though, I go to church to worship God - not man. I love my church family. Just like a real family, we forgive each other and get on with our lives. Plus I would hope that the churches have compassion on all people and not just other Christians. I know that my church will share food with all people in a crisis, and the Lord will provide.

-- Sarah (samay@usa.net), July 24, 1998.

I was "churched" once but those Sisters of Saint Francis beat the shit out of us so much that I am now "unchurched," and so are my kids. Who needs religion beat into them? I plan on doing all I can to help when TSHTF in 2000. Don't need a church(crutch) for that.

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), July 24, 1998.

How many wars have been fought in the name of religion? How many people have been murdered in the name of religion? Have many suicides have been caused by religion? How many people think they're going to heaven because they have religion? And how many in the pews sit there and listen to their minister condemn the "unchurched?" Everyone's going to hell but him! I bet if a homeless person walked into their church all smelly, tattered clothes, and unshaven, they'd all get up and move, and exit out of the sanctuary as fast as they could so they wouldn't have to shake the persons hand. Dave 22, it wasn't fun getting the hell beat out of you was it? Was it done in the name of God? Wow what authority the righteous sister had to do that! Your not unchurched, your just a wise person who has seen the light. But you know Dave 22, the more we talk about the church people, the more they puff up and scream persecution and it just makes them feel even more righteous! No there is not one righteous person, no not one!

-- Barb-Douglas (bardou@yahoo.com), July 24, 1998.

"There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:10 Exactly right Barb. That is why God sent us a Savior - Jesus Christ.

-- Sarah (samay@usa.net), July 24, 1998.

The outburst directed at Granny Holly is competely uncalled for. This woman's posts have shown nothing but concern for others and a desire to help out as best she can. Perhaps some of you have her confused with the self righteous hypocrits who are even quicker to point out their own "holiness" than they are to judge and condemn everyone who doesn't believe and act exactly like they do. I don't think Granny Holly is one of those. Not by a long shot. If you want to know what it's all about read the Bible for yourself, especially the NT sermons that Jesus Christ gave. I think those "Christians" like those Barb spoke of who committed murders and other evils in the name of God and turned people's hearts against Jesus through their own desire to control others are going to be spending eternity in the lake of fire.If you do decide to give Jesus a try, I'll tell you one thing. It will be like nothing else you've ever experienced in your life. There really are no words for it. Nothing will happen, though, until you are ready, really ready, to accept Jesus. For me it was rock bottom alcoholism. He doesn't come in uninvited and He won't stay if you stray. Check out a film called "The Rapture" with Mimi Rogers at the video store some time. It's the only movie I've ever seen that tells it like it is. Be forewarned, though. It is quite graphic and disturbing.

-- name (name@name.com), July 25, 1998.

Come on Barb, tell us how you REALLY feel.

I think Barb misunderstood the original posting of this thread. It's not a thread to Thump bible-thumpers...if you want to do that you need to go to Iran where it is not only legal, but state sanctioned.

-- Human Kind (Human@madness.net), July 25, 1998.

Chris.... it appears that you started something that needs a touch from the mighty hand of Yahweh! So, as one of His servants, I would offer a few words that may help us to get some understanding of what's happening. This may look like a tongue-twister at first glance, but read it over a few times and I think you will gain some insight as to why the awful conflict over 'religious' issues.

A "Christian", in all truth, is simply one who belongs to Christ. It is not the name of a certain religious order, or a sectarian label, but rather a personal identity. On this forum some participants 'profess' to be Christians and some do not. Of those 'professors', some are true believers, (i.e. they are 'possessed' by Christ and also possess His Holy Spirit), and some are not. Of those who are not, some are out and out hypocrites and the rest have been deceived into thinking they are Christians.

The rub come in when "think-so" Christians, who do NOT possess the Spirit of Christ, try to merit favor with God by doing good works including contending with those who want nothing to do with God. Some, like Bardou, have a keen understanding of what a Christian should be, and when they see hypocricy, spiritual pride, and sophists parading as believers, they are quick to defend their own ungodliness by pointing to the many failings they see in "professors" and even among true believers.

Christians, (I mean true believers, deeply repentant, and living under the Lordship of Christ), are not perfect, they are simply sinners who have been forgiven and set apart for God. They sin just like anyone else, but they do not practice sinning. Sin no longer controls their lives and their one burning desire is to live in such a way as to bring joy to the heart of God. This causes some to be overzealous, and in the process to become offensive, and this ought not to be.

I mean no offense to anyone, believers or unbelievers. I was just like the worst of the worst, and had it not been for the grace of God I would still be totally depraved and headed for hell. To you who are true believers, remember what you were before Christ Christ called you unto Himself. Some of you once hated those who possessed the Spirit of Christ; some were whoremongers and adulterers, and so deep in sin you would hide your face in shame if the truth were known about your former life. Be patient... God isn't finished with those who hate your guts right now. They are enemies of Christ because they are children of Diabolus. They love their sin because it's in their nature. They are in bondage to do the works of their father. Don't take their insults personally, because they are looking past us and blaspheming the One whose image we bear, be it ever so poorly borne.

To you who are just 'playing church', please guard your tongue on spiritual matters lest you heap unto yourself even more condemnation. Despise your self righteous life and the empty works of churchanity that's covering a deceived, sinful heart. Admit what you really are, both to God and to yourself, and give yourself no rest until you rest in the finished work of Christ on your behalf.

To those who know not Christ, and have no regard for the authority of God: Please try to understand that many of those with whom you take issue and whose comments offend you, are perhaps even more sinful than you, and may have more to answer for at the judgment than you. Don't paint us all with the same brush, and try to understand that some of us really do care for your soul, having been in the very same place where you are... comfortable in our sins, right in our own eyes, and determined never to have God rule and reign in our lives.

Today you have it all figured out. Either there is no God, or if there IS a God He's a God of love and compassion, and will surely understand my weaknesses, weigh my good against my bad, accept my good intentions, reward my efforts, compare me against the rotten others, and when the final dirt is shoveled in my face... say "welcome home"!

Well... I've got news for you and it isn't good! The Bible says that your very best (your righteousness) is like a discarded menstrual cloth...totally without worth. To men you may shine as gold when compared to others, but in God's eyes you are dead in trespasses and in sins, and religion won't get you to first base, let alone Heaven.

Until God gives you the faith to believe His Word, moves you sincere repentance, and takes that stony heart out of your breast, you can go to church 8 days a week, give everything you own to feed the poor, pray all the prayers ever written, and still go straight to hell. All you can do, my friend is to humble yourself before Almighty God, earnestly confess your sins, and beg for His mercy. He'll do all the rest. Just be honest with Him because He already knows your every thought and deed!

So, there's no need to argue with us, insult us, or demean us, for God has told us that suffering is our lot in life. Try to put up with our zeal that often gets out of hand, because we really do care what happens to you. It's pretty clear that some of you who vehemently protest the mention of God on this forum, are trying hard not to give away your secret desire to know the peace that a right relationship with God will bring. Behind your facade of belligerance and apathy is a deep-seated desire for truth and rest for your soul.

The eternal destiny of the soul is not predicated upon human wisdom or effort. It is affirmed by man believing what God says about him, acknowledging His right to rule over him, and submitting to His authority. No one can do this in the energy of the flesh as it takes a work of divine grace in the heart. We see a lot of consecrated flesh, in what I call "churchanity", today which produces hypocrites and 'think-so' Christians. These out number true believers perhaps three to one, so it's a safe bet that three out of four of those who call themselves 'Christians' are really just playing church! So, let's try to stop the meanness, and as Rodney says: "Can't we just all get along?"

I've written an article entitled "Let's Quit Playing Church". If you would like a copy e-mailed to you, just let me know.

-- Roy (roy@techcomm.net), July 25, 1998.

It's me again...

Would you guys mind reading my origina post and leaving it at that. Thanks! :)

P.S. Drop by my web site at http://www.lifetel.com/y2k2000.htm and pass the word to others.

-- Pastor Chris (chrisbr@ptinet.net), July 25, 1998.

Roy...

Why are you judging me as being an ungodly person? Why have you set yourself up as being God's judge? You don't know my heart, or my feelings about God and who I think God is and what God means to me. You are right that when someone speaks about their good works, and how they look down on the "unchurched", I have a keen sense of seeing right through them. A true Christian does not walk around talking about their good works, because works without faith is dead. Just the mere word "unchurched," among Christians means the "unsaved." That's the problem with some of you professed Christians, you judge other's by where you think you are in God's eyes. God is no respector of persons. Either he loves us all or detests us. Religion breeds intolerance. And it's true, I have little tolerance for people who think their religion is the best for everyone else. Furthermore, we already are in the lake of fire. Truly you wouldn't throw away heaven if you had a glimpse of heaven. How can anybody be satisfied with this life? We are all sinners, we were born into it, and we will die out of it. Isn't the wages of sin death? God looks upon each heart. Thank God you will not be my judge, because no one would be saved.

Furthermore, some of you have posted on this topic and have given a false name, and a false e-mail. Yhat tells me you are embarrassed to stand up for Jesus and give your true identity. I have given my e-mail and my name, I am no coward.

Pastor Chris....

Why end something that you have started? I think you wanted an argument/debate to happen, and then you run and say stop! I think it's good that you started your "Bible Thumpers" sight. You all go, run there, pat each other on the back, and feel all good that you are not among "Yourdon's unchurched." You have to flee, get away from the ungodly. And you Pastor Chris, were the one person that I respected on this site.

Barb

judge

-- Barb-Douglas (bardou@yahoo.com), July 25, 1998.

How do we know this Pastor Chris is really a pastor? Probably some rabble rouser trying to get everyone riled up. I bet it's really Monica Lewinsky. :)

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), July 25, 1998.

To Barb:

Me thinks thou protesteth too much.

To Dave:

Yes, I really am a pastor.

Anyone interested in the original post at the top of the page can read it. It's fairly simple to understand. If you're not interested there's no reason to comment.

Blessings to all!

-- Pastor Chris (chrisbr@ptinet.net), July 25, 1998.

Dave 22 is not his real name nor his real e-mail.

For now on, I will address everyone on the Forum and will not give out my real e-mail and will give a fake name. I played by the rules of the game. I'm discontinuing my e-mail address of bardou@yahoo.com. I've arranged for it to be disconnected.

As yes, Pastor Chris is a real Pastor, I think?????

-- playedbythegame (refusetogive@baloney.com), July 25, 1998.

Dear Barb@baloney.com:

(I address Barb publicly because she previously refused to communicate privately and suggested that her comments be made public just as she has done in response to my last post. In addition, she just posted that she was no longer using a correct e-mail address. For this I ask the forbearance of the forum participants because this is not the place for religious debate nor personal communication).

My dear lady, how you do struggle against the truth! You have completely missed the context of my post, and singled out the mention of your ungodliness. Why do you protest the mention of your being ungodly when you've given this forum no evidence that you are a true child of God? I would ask that you answer the following questions:

1. Do you sincerely believe that you have been born-again, justified, and are ready to stand before God in judgment...today?

2. Do you have an earnest, on-going desire to know the will of God for your life, and a willingness to do it?

3. Do you have a love for the Bible, the Word of God, and place its precepts above everything else in your life?

4. Do you long to see others come to know the joy of a right relationship with Christ, or are you satisfied to let each one do his own thing?

5. Do you really love those who love the Lord, and aspire to be with them, or are you more comfortable among non-bible thumpers? "For we know that we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren" (1 Jn. 3:14)

6. Do you recognize the appearance of sin in your life, and therefore earnestly repent of it, or do you justify its presence simply because we all have it?

7. Do you see the presence of the fruit of the Spirit in your life (Gal. 5:22-23), and long for a greater expresssion of it?

Let me say this, and I say it in love. The items mentioned above are biblical characteristics of the true follower of Christ. If you can honestly answer yes to these questions, then you need to ask the Lord's forgiveness (and the forum) for disregarding scriptural absolutes. In your posts you have shown little if anything that even remotely resembles the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and you are quick to identify with those who blaspheme God, joy in corrupt speech, and demean His people.

When I mentioned you personally I was emphasizing your ability to see through much of what is not truly 'Christian', and not the fact that you were ungodly. Ungodly simply means not being like God. Do you take exception to that? All who have not experienced the joy being declared righteous before Almighty God are ungodly, and sinners are justified by coming to God on His terms and not our own. These are not my words, they are God's. Every living soul is ungodly until it comes to God in humility, acknowledges its sinfulness, and receives God's forgiveness and cleansing.

This is not 'religion', Barb, this is real life. And yes, true believers do enjoy living right here in this dark, sin-cursed world because God has declared that we are His ambassadors and His light bearers. Whenever someone says "get a life", try to think of what I've just said. As far as I'm concerned this discussion is ended on this open forum. If you choose to argue, debate, accuse, or flame me, kindly do it privately. If God puts it in your heart to humble yourself and repent, and gives you a desire to know the truth, I'm sure that pastor Chris will be ever so willing to help you.

Simply His,

Roy

-- Roy Cave (roy@techcomm.net), July 26, 1998.

Noah is five hundred years old when he fathers his first child.-Genesis 5:32 (I REPEAT,THIS IS NOT RELIGION BUT REAL LIFE!) hee-hee

-- Connie L. (Cofkee@aol.com), July 26, 1998.

Maybe Noah was on Viagra.

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), July 26, 1998.

Pastor Chris is from Washington State.

I am from Florida. We are brothers in Christ by WWW.

If those of you who have taken such joy in flaming and insulting one another would take one minute and look in on the Y 2 K Website Pastor Chris has going, you would click it as one of your favorite places.

It was a great web site before he put up the "bible thumpers" forum. Personally, I would have advised him against using that wording, but he didn't ask.

It seems obvious, from his web site, that he is apparently a 100% Christian. Not 100% perfect! But 100% forgiven.

He happens to also have studied the heck out of Y 2 K and has some great preparedness ideas. Most of you need to just get a life and think about the issue here: Y 2 K and WHAT WILL WE DO?

A wise old Jewish man I knew years ago said that there were no atheists with Patton in North Africa. I think that very soon now, everyone will be crying out "GOD HELP US".

Pastor Steve

-- Stephen L. Bening (Gammadim@aol.com), July 26, 1998.

I've hesitated to write but I'll put on this little blurb.

I chose the term "Bible Thumper" as a tongue-in-cheek title for my original post on this forum. I never dreamed it would get this type of response.

The forum on my web site is simply titled: Y2K Forum.

God bless you all, and Steve, thanks for the kind words. :)

You can find the Y2K forum at http://www.lifetel.com/y2kforum.htm (It is not intended to compete with this one.)

Blessings!

-- Pastor Chris (pastorchris@lifetel.com), July 26, 1998.

A wise old Jewish man I knew years ago said that there were no atheists with Patton in North Africa. I think that very soon now, everyone will be crying out "GOD HELP US".

Mr. Bening:

I Congratulate you for stepping up and bring the matter back into order... What was this forum supposed to to achieve? A Christian perspective with possible biblical references on how to cope with, survive the Y2K.

As followers of Christ we have been called, not only to take care of our own family (the Christian Church), but also those outside of the church, if they are willing to allow us to help them.

Those who are not "professors" of Christ, can and will go on all day long about how hypocritical the church is, and therefore will have nothing to do with it. But figure this: People who have made a concious decision, a spiritual decision to follow Christ, to be more "Christ-Like" have made an awesome choice . Simply being a Christian does not automatically make us into perfect beings. Although perfected through Christ spiritually, spot free in the eyes of God. But like the old childrens bible song, "GOD'S STILL WORKING ON ME" holds true true on each and everyone of us that is striving to please the Lord. Questions: 1. As the Y2K issue becomes more and more prevelant, what and how are we supposed to react? 2. What can we do, as children of Christ to help out in this situation? 3. How can we become more educated on the issue as to be more prepared when it does in fact hit. Out of Room... Until Later.. God Bless all of you and Chris for starting this forum.

-- TERI DADE (IMN2IAM@aol.com), July 27, 1998.

Wow, Pastor Chris, I was just reading the forum page from Yourdon's web site. There are some seriously bitter people out there. It is very sad that so many have been hurt so bad by folks professing to be Christians. It has hardened their hearts toward those who really are and more importantly toward Christ Himself. Praise God that we live under Grace and not under condemnation any longer. Enough about that. My husband and I are rather new to the whole y2k thing. We just started reading about it the first part of July. We are still not sure how deeply to believe it and to what extent to alter our lives. We live in Norfolk, Virginia on one of the city's busiest streets. We are members of a wonderful New Testament church and have never felt so much a part of the body of Christ as we do here. My husband is a forklift mechanic and I am a homemaker. We have 4 children ranging in age from 12 to 1 1/2, and one due in December. I also homeschool our children. We are currently renting and have never owned. Our car is a 1987 on it's last leg hunk of ....well, thank-you Lord that we have a car and It runs!!! We have been looking at land in Virginia, some within an hour of here, some near Charlottesville off the beaten path and are thinking maybe we should move, buy some land, a mobile home, learn to grow vegetables, and stock, stock, stock. But we are just so uncertain. How bad is it going to be? Should we move away from our church family? Our entire support network? Our community of believers and homeschoolers and "run for cover"? What if nothing much happens? Then we're stuck there, alone. :( Is that deserting a sinking ship full of family and friends. Looking out for ourselves like the Levite and the Priest ? Or is it wise, and providing a place that, once they all see the truth we've been warning them about, they can all flee to.? What do ya'll think? We are praying hard about this and want to do God's will. Be where He wants us to be. We would appreciate your prayers and also and words of wisdom you may wish to share with us. God Bless you.

-- Vicky Haneline (Haneline7@aol.com), July 28, 1998.

You can pray and pray and pray, and doesn't God give you a brain and common sense to some degree to use? I just don't get this praying. What if you pray and you go with whatever.....and then you chose the wrong path? Did God do that to you? Did he lead you down the wrong path? It's like praying "Lord what will thou have me to do today? I think he says "If you don't get up off your ass today and go to work, your family won't be eating, you won't be paying your bills, and you will be out on the street!" No one can decide for you, and no one has a crystal ball to look into and say "yeh, move, no stay, etc." You have to study, read, look at all the information that is out there. Don't jump at everything so quickly. God was given you a brain, to learn, and to discern. Listen to your inner being, because it is the Holy Sprit talking to you and directing you. Haven't you ever sensed danger coming your way? I believe it is the Holy Spirit warning you to stay away, or heads up. No one can answer your spiritual questions for you, or whether you should move or stay put. The most important thing is that you take care of your family first. And the basics are water, food, shelter.

-- beenthere (onthelookout@webtv.com), July 28, 1998.

Bardou (I'll use your NEW name),

Above you said "works without faith is dead". I believe the proper quotation is "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) -- I believe one can do good "works" without faith, but one cannot to say "I believe in Christ" and expect that to be the end it, that one will automatically be "saved" without proving that faith through works.

That's it. I'm really not looking for a fight -- I'm headed to Pastor Chris' forum - I'm gone! (but I'll be back for the down to earth Y2K stuff so no bets please) d

-- Itoocanmoo (canyou@theriver.com), July 29, 1998.

I'm not a betting person anyway, I hate gambling. Perhaps now that's all that will be discussed is Y2K stuff and surviving. And thanks for correcting my Bible quote, you are right, but you understood what I was saying. Bardou

-- Playedbythegame (refusetogive@baloney.com), July 29, 1998.