Churches May be the answergreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
I have come to believe that the government will not act in time because there is too much fault and blame to lay on politicians doorsteps. Businesses and Utilities are mute because of legal advice. If it goes down the way I suspect it will, there will be no one to blame. This could be the shining moment for the Church. I don't care what Church. I am an Athiest. After the centuries of preaching brotherly love, this is the time to "pay the piper." Pat Robertson should come out now and open his coffers. So should the Catholic church and all other Christians. This is the time that I was taught in my youth that we prove ourselves to be Christian. We are not supposed to care about "earthly reward" are we? (you) This country has never seen such a rise in church attendance as we have in the last 10 years. This is the Golden Opportunity for the church. Just like soldiers, football players and policemen. We have been training forever it seems. Now lets see what we've got under fire. The question I guess is: Do we have the right stuff? (i don't think so)
-- Bill Solorzano (email@example.com), July 08, 1998
Although not a big fan of Pat Robertson, I must protest your implication that he does not help the poor. He runs one of the largest Christian relief agencies in the world. Operation Blessing. If possible, and if the resources are available, he WILL send supplies.
-- zerad (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 08, 1998.
Excuse me, Bill.
You say, "I am an Atheist," but in the next breath you challenge Christians......."Pat Robertson should do this, the Catholic church should do that, *we* have been training, let's see what *we've* got, do *we* have the right stuff?"
Do you see something wrong here?
-- Rocky Knolls (email@example.com), July 09, 1998.
1. An atheist does not call upon the church for something he can do for himself. 2. The Lord helps those who help themselves. 3. The church seeks to recruit into their church people with $$$$ to further their own survival. No money, no church! 3. It's predictable that people will call on the name of the Lord to save them from destitution....prayer alone will not save anyone from the bitter taste of ones own selfishness and lack of planning. 4. The church is not the Saviour, the church is merely an entity that is self-ordained and is subject to sin and deceit. 5. If the church opened it's coffers, they would relinquish their power.....money is power no matter which way you spin it. Ain't no way in hell they would do that! Could you imagine the Schuler's selling the Crystal Cathedral to feed the poor? HAAAAA, I have a bridge to sell you too! 6. When times get tough of course people will go to church to seek answers, where were they during the good times? Yea, people are predictable! They like being spoon fed! I haven't heard the phrase question "authority" in a long time
-- Barb-Douglas (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 09, 1998.
The responces to my question seem to indicate that the church is kind of a investment club. If you don't pay into it, you can't get anything out of it. Christianity became popular because it was a religion that even slaves who had nothing could join. I thought that Christianity did not require its members to "Do good works" to achieve a state of grace. I was not suggesting that the church offer hand outs. I was thinking more like that great old movie, "The shoes of the fisherman" Anthony Quinn, in the role of the Pope, gave away all of the churches wealth to the Godless Chinese government when they were facing famine. Can't the mass be said using styrofoam cups insead of gold chalises? Do you need a Crystal Cathedral? But then, that great old movie was fiction wasn't it?
-- Bill Solorzano (email@example.com), July 09, 1998.
I've been there and have done the church scene, it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Even worked for them at one time! The church pays no taxes, yet they own some of the richest pieces of property in the United States! They can fill their coffers, play the stock market, and still pay no taxes! It's a scam! Remember the old gospel song Bringing in the Sheaves? I call it Shearing the Sheep!
-- bardou (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 09, 1998.
Bill, I agree -- this is the time that those of us who call ourselves Christians (myself included) will be called upon to minister in our communities. The Methodist church has a grassroots program called "Vision 2000" that encourages its congregations to look ahead & see what they can be, compared to what they are now. This program isn't related to Y2K, but I'm gathering material to make a presentation at our next meeting.
I'll risk violating the "religious discussion" guideline here, since you brought it up: you were correct, as far as you went, in your second post in this thread -- good works are not a precondition of faith. However, good works are supposed to be a result, an outflow, a visible display, of the faith within. I believe James said, "faith without works is dead." (BTW, "God helps those who help themselves" is Ben Franklin, not the Bible.)
-- Larry Kollar (email@example.com), July 09, 1998.
I doubt that churches will be the answer. Most have agendas incompatible with the gospel. True followers of Christ might be a help. We are putting up extra food for whoever God settles on our doorstep in a time of crisis. We know we will be helping those who won't or can't help themselves. That's Grace. We may not be able to much, but we will do so as God enables.
-- Timothy Rebman (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 09, 1998.
"The church is a meeting place for sinners; not a museum for saints." I don't know who said that originally, but it about says it all! Some also say the church is full of hypocrites. If those "hypocrites" are between people who say that and God, guess who is closer to God? This great granny has lived all over the US, every area but the deep south. I could have chosen to hang out in bars, social clubs, and such. But I chose a local church, with all its imperfections. I found every one of the 16, of various denominations, to be caring supporters who reached out to me in many catastrophies, helping me in so many ways. In addition, every one reached out to the community, and across the whole world--not just in times of disasters, but all year 'round. Are there corrupt "religious" leaders? Yes! Are there no corrupt lawyers, business people, doctors, entertainers, sports figures? I don't have to defend the church; no one does. I could put some Scriptures here, both negative and positive, about the church. It's sad, but those who raise the greatest uproar against both the church and the Bible seem to be those who rarely, if ever, attend a church, or read the Bible. Is this mature? Does this show wisdom? I think not!
-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), July 09, 1998.
hy would the churches be any more of a solution now than they have ever been? Where were the churches during any other crisis?...other than telling people to pray harder and providing minimal sanctuary or raosting heretics? To my knowledge churches have come down four-square on the side of dictators and govts in power, against rebellions..which, of course, this isn't, yet.....Asking churches for help is like asking uncle samuel for help...a waste of time..and annoys the pig.
You like being told that suffering is holy? Then you'll love the churches after medium-to-severe Y2K crises.
Sorry...I didn't mean for bile to spurt...I have just been remembering the true definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
-- Donna Barthuley (email@example.com), July 09, 1998.
I am the athiest remember? My thoughts were along the following lines: Religions are organized. Churches exist in every city town and hamlet. They have money. They have lots of motivated volounteers. The church leaders will be between a rock and a hard place if we experience hunger and poverty and they do nothing. If we cannot count on government to organize things, why not use the churches organization? I am counting on Christians expecting their leaders to act in a Christian manner. Despite the church's dismal record of not standing up to tyrants and despots, Y2k is a very different situation. I think that individual Christians will be charitable as they have almost always been. That ain't gonna be enough. One poster said that there was some machinery in place in his Methodist church to at least air the problem. Maybe pressure from the congregations could get the ball rolling.
-- Bill Solorzano (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 10, 1998.
But Bill,..the churches have wanted to hang onto as much of their money as possible from time immemorial..I think the idealism is great,..but it ain't gonna happen...some churchrches will help some people...there will be no group outpouring of aid....besides...and forgive me the compulsion...suffering is holy.... remember?
-- Donna Barthuley (email@example.com), July 10, 1998.
You couldn't have said it any better!
-- Barb-Douglas (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 10, 1998.
Churches are a mixed bag, just like people: some generous, some miserly, and so on. To dismiss all religion and all churches as wealthy, greedy, and hungry for power is just plain wrong. The thousands of mainstream churches that are fixtures in their communities will try to do the right thing. The small Lutheran church I belong to is typical of most, I think. I truly believe that if something bad happens when the ball drops, we and all the other churches in the area will be there to help.
Do I have the same faith in the Corporate Church? I wish I did, but I don't really -- money tends to have a corrupting influence in proportion to the possessions the church has. What worries me more, though, is the spiritual toll the Y2K affair will have on some Christians who are already looking for the end of the world at the beginning of the millennium. Many will take the Stupid Programming Mistake That Got Away From Us and turn it into a message from God that man is being scourged in preparation for the Second Coming. That, in my humble opinion, is reading rather more into the situation than is warranted.
-- Bill Amos (email@example.com), July 15, 1998.