OK, Help, I need all the info I can get on why St. Micheal the Archangel is not Jesus!

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I am in the middle of a dialogue with a Jehovas Witness, and I want to utterly destroy his argument that St. Micheal is Jesus. He uses John 1:1 as his arguement basis. He says that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was A God." He states the bible was written in Classical Greek, When it was Really written in Koinea Greek! He is a fool and so is His entire religion. But he is sincere is God can Work Here! One must not quibble with scripture badmitton fhere, but we need to get right to Authority. By what authority did Charles Taize Russell have to interpret the Bible, did he have apostolic succession, NO! Can anyone add some good comments on how I can show him the truth, he has been a JW for 40 years so I need Good Arguments.

Semper Fidelis!

-- Anonymous, July 07, 1998



John 1:1-3 states: "In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was one in being with God. He was with God in the beginning. It was through Him that all things came into being, and without Him came nothing that has come to be."

The English phrase "one in being" translates the Greek word "homoousios," which was translated into the Latin "consubstantialis" (consubstantial). This passage is thus one of the revelations of Christ's divinity as the Second Person of God.

As this passage begins the Gospel of John, the evangelist is clearly speaking of Christ. There is no way that this refers to an angel, given the phrase "and the Word was one in being with God," as even a JW will tell you -- angels are not God.

It was through the Word also "that all things came into being, and without Him came nothing that has come to be." This is reiterated by St. Paul, "In him all created things took their being, heavenly and earthly, visible and invisible; what are thrones and dominions, what are princedoms and powers? They were all created through him and in him; he takes precedency of all, and in him all subsist" (Col. 1:16-17). There can be no mistake here, Paul is clearly talking about the Son of God, whom he names in verse 14 just before this passage cited.

Interestingly enough, he asks, "[W]hat are thrones and dominions, what are princedoms and powers? They were all created through him and in him." Thrones, dominions, etc. are all different choirs of angels! So it is clear from this passage that even the angels were created through the Son in the beginning. Only the Godhead -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- are begotten, that is, around before the beginning. So it is thus impossible that an angel could be the Word mentioned in John 1:1-3... angels simply hadn't been created yet.

I really don't see his arguement here in favor of labeling the Word as St. Michael the Archangel. Has he READ the rest of the Gospel? John is clearly talking about Jesus here, the divine and begotton Son of the Father who was with Him and in Him at the Creation.


-- Anonymous, July 07, 1998

Here's the address of a tract that may be helpful: Tract

-- Anonymous, July 07, 1998

Robert, Is he saying that Christ is not the Son of God, or that St Michael/Christ is the Son of God? Because when Christ was baptized, a voice from Heaven said, This is My Son, in Whom I am well-pleased.

Now I am not positive about this, but I think that the JW bible has been thru many translations, and is now quite different from any others. You might check his, esp if you quoted correctly in your post:...and the Word was *A* God.

-- Anonymous, July 08, 1998

Ok Help...Ok, Robert...

Robert, I hope once you have "utterly destroyed" this man's arguement you are able to settle back and breathe deeply and try to get ahold of your anger. You are clearly upset, and your posting almost explodes off the screen, but we cannot allow ourselves to foam at the mouth about this stuff. Jehovah's Witnesses have many bizarre beliefs and it is usually futile and unrewarding to try to change thier minds. I have a neighbor who is JW, and it's been a struggle in that her children come here to play with mine, and then tell my kids "my mom says you guys worship idols" (she is a former Catholic, BTW) I sat them down and explained to them that many people have this kind of wrong impression and showed them how praying to saints or Mary for intercession is like asking any friend to pray for us...but then I had to call the mother and ask her if we could either get together and correct each other's misconceptions about our religions or agree to not discuss our beliefs with each other's children at all. Her response was to come on over with her bible, showing me the part of Revelations wherein it says "The number brought into heaven was 144,000" Apparently, this church believes that of all the billions of people in the world, only 144.000 of them will even get to heaven....it's a small god they worship, but it is THEIR god. My experience with JW's as a whole is that they are people who prefer to live as outsiders, and the church gives them an opportunity to do that - just my own thought. I treat this neighbor with respect and friendliness because to treat her in any other way would displease my Lord and my Mother, and it would make my Christianity look feeble, hypocritical and insincere. We must always be on our guard, when dealing with people who's religion is utterly senseless, to treat them with respect and kindness - otherwise, we only undo ourselves and our own cause. I'm guilty of it myself, I'm not perfect, and I've been known to think "what a putz" sometimes...but when I do that, I am usually WRONG, either in my assessment or my instinct to judge. Your words, Robert, "He is a fool and so is His entire religion" are angry and don't seem to redeem anybody. I hope you get to feeling better. Peace, Dana

-- Anonymous, July 08, 1998

In the NT Jesus was acknowledged by his apostles to be the Messiah, the anointed one, the long awaited one. St. Thomas acknowledged Jesus as, "My Lord and My God" establishing Jesus as Lord, God (2nd person of the Blessed Trinity)Master and Messiah. If Michael were Jesus...why then, in the OT did St. Michael say to an enemy of the Hebrews: "The Lord rebuke you" thereby giving-over to someone greater than his angel-self? Wouldn't he have said something like: "I rebuke you" if he were Jesus? But he didn't, did he? No, because Michael is not Jesus.....he serves Jesus as caretaker of God's people in both Old and New Testaments...that was/is his job. Salvation was Jesus' job, a job that only God could do- so he sent his son/sent his 'self'.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 1998

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