Human Naturegreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
On May 22 at a water park in Arlington, TX a riot broke out when they announced that the park was going to be closing early because a couple of fights had occured. The gift shops were looted, and the whole park was surrounded by police. ALL BECAUSE THE PARK WAS GOING TO CLOSE EARLY!
What does this have to do with Y2k? Maybe nothing, but what are these same people going to do if things get really bad because of Y2k? No paycheck? No welfare check? No power? No food? My guess is they will resort to previously exhibited behavior and start looting and/or worse...
If you think you will be safe in a city or suburb; please think again. I'm begining to think the GOOD ( Get Out Of Dodge ) Plan is something I should seriously consider. Even if I am willing to defend me and my family from looters, the image of a pile of dead looters outside our house doesn't seem too pleasant. Thinking about it is one thing, actually having to deal with it is another. Man oh man, what might happen over the next couple of years seems incomprehensible...
-- Frank Anderson, Jr. (Zanazaz@Earthlink.net), May 26, 1998
I just finished reading Lucifer's Hammer which was recommended by some friends as a good disaster scenario book - it deals with meteors hitting the earth. Since I finished the book I have been giving serious thought as to how the little town I live near and the surrounding farms will react if Y2k gets bad.
What if there are bands of hungry people coming out of the cities (We are 100 miles from 2 cities of 200,000+ and 50 miles from another)? How long before that happens? Will the community pull together or pull apart? Will people share? Will they block the road into town and isolate it? What will they do for water, food, essentials? Will they try and confiscate things?
I know there are other questions that need to be asked. I don't have any answers for any of these questions. I wish I could get more people in this area prepared, but it's not going to happen.
-- Rebecca Kutcher (email@example.com), May 26, 1998.
I haven't been reading or posting much lately because I have been too busy preparing our remote farm for the move. We plan to go at the end of this summer--barely a few months away. Human natue": a huge topic about which volumes have been written. About six blocks from the hospital where I work, on the route I use to drive to work, a road rage incident occurred yesterday. The ragers forced the ragees car into a parking lot where it overturned. This wasn't enough. The ragers then got out of their vehicle with baseball bats and sticks and beat the ragees--killing one and leaving the other two seriously injured. all of this OVER A TRAFFIC ALTERCATION. It is astonishing--and the examples are more and more frequent. We have allowed an urban environment to evolve around us in which we are so accustomed to violent solutions that we hardly give them a thought. Or, we are so fascinated by them (high profile recent teen kills a bunch of people cases) that we neglect to examine what is behind them.
The moral of the story(s), for me, is to get the heck out. As I have stated on other threads, I am eternally grateful for Mr. Yourdan's book--it was the "convincer" for me. Six months after moving to our remote place, we will have everything in "production" and we won't care if Y2K is a non-event or if it creates a ten year disruption.
However, it has taken a massive commitment on our part to get to this place. My wife and I have turned it into a hobby and spend 10-15 hours a week on it. We are using almost all of our financial resources to finance the project. We have almost no support from our parents, brothers, and sisters. In fact, several of them just plain think we are nuts.
But I can always live comfortably on a remote ranch with clean air, 100 mile views, clean water from my own well, a nice garden, and some small animals--God lives there too. I can always eat food storage I have put in. I can give away extra seed. Maybe I could even start some gardening classes for the local yuppies if all is well after 1-3-2000? But seriously, the downside for preperation is about zero. The risk to reward ratio here is off the chart--even assuming only "half worst case" scenarios. Perhaps it is time to stop spending so much time talking about it and start devoting time to doing something about it! Godspeed to you all.
-- p. (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 26, 1998.
In regard to moving to a "remote area", would not such persons be all the more vulnerable to invasion by hungry people? It seems to me if a move is to be made, wouldn't it be better to be in a compound or community, an apartment building, a neighborhood with others who have prepared and are going to "stand together?" There is safety in numbers (of like-minded, prepared people), isn't there? I don't think I'd feel comfortable in a "remote area" unless I had an unimpenetrable stockade, with high outlook posts, around me! And the necessary munitions! There are no easy answers to this debacle, are there!
-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), May 26, 1998.
I don't know how one can KNOW that the checks will not be mailed, and think there will be no riots. The checks WILL NOT be mailed come 1/2000. There WILL BE riots in 1/2000. Those are facts. How long they last is the only question.
-- zerad (email@example.com), May 26, 1998.
Another aspect of human nature seemingly overlooked is the body's "fight or flight" mechanism usually brought on by adrenaline rush due to extreme stress. Meaning that you will unconsciously react in one way or another to outside stimuli, ie: looters breaking into your house. Unfortunatly we don't always know in advance which way we will turn. A good but tragic analogy is when a woman is in a situation when she is about to be raped. Some react by kicking, screaming, scratching or anything else possible to avoid the event, while others simply cry and say please don't hurt me, I'll do anything you want.
I would rather be out of the thick of things in control of my own environment, that way I could mentally prepare for what may come. Not knowing other people's fight or flight response could lead to a false sense of security, and leave you in a world of shit.
-- Rod (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 26, 1998.
I don't think a remote hideaway is the answer. I know of someone who bought a place like this and it was looted the first weekend they purchased it. I believe you are a sitting duck out in the boonies. Hungry people will be looking for places just like this. So will Uncle Sam.
-- Annie (email@example.com), May 27, 1998.
This is a response to the people who don't believe a remote survival retreat is a viable option.
First of all, try and analyze the situation; the unprepared, hungry mob will probably stay in their city or town until all the food is gone. They probably won't save any food for any extended trips out of town.
Once the food is gone what do they do? Will they head out for the boonies? Which way will they go? Even if they have automobiles will they have enough gasoline? Do they have extra cash to purchase the fuel, even if fuel is available? In this paradigm, if someone has fuel and an automobile, who's to say they can make it out of town? Other looters who want their fuel and car may try and stop them. Then there is the food and water problem. Have they saved enough food and water to make an extended trip? What if something happens to their car? Will they ditch their car and walk? If they walk which way do they go? Do they have enough water or a filter to purify it. During the winter hypothermia is a real danger. Most of these people would be the ones who didn't prepare. I could go on and on...
Will the people in a neighborhood be able to organize? Some neighborhoods maybe, but not all of them. Most people today barely know their neighbors.
Yes a remote location can be looted easily before Y2k if you do not yet live their full time. I wouldn't start stockpiling unless you plan on being there most of the time, especially at night. Or else have a really secure house. maybe you could get a local to house sit, especially at night, for a small fee. During the day they could work on preparations like putting up fences, whatever...
In my opinion, a remote homestead has little to fear from people coming from the city to loot. Especially if you are a couple of hundred miles away from a major city. I don't think they could actually make it. Besides, if a family showed up at my retreat with a couple of kids, and they were unarmed or seemed harmless enough, I would help them. Wouldn't you?
I look forward to the responses...
-- Frank Anderson, Jr. (Zanazaz@Earthlink.net), May 27, 1998.
My husband and myself are at this crossroad, do we stay or do we go? Each point made previous is very valid. My concern is: If we do move to the boonies, will we be really safe? After reading other sites I am concerned about the executive orders....especially those which state they (the govt) can take from private citizens anything they want, Would you be less conspicuous living amongst your neighbors with your reserves in hand? I would feel more comfortable having other people join us...but then does that constitute us as a militia or survivalists?
-- Jane Van (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 27, 1998.
Jane has asked a very important question in her response: "My husband and myself are at this crossroad".
There are risks where ever you go. Small communities have their own type of spirit. Some are quite hostile to "invaders" or newcomers.
Some small town mentalities are far more dangerous that the rural areas surrounding larger cities.
It is very important that you investigate the psychology of the community that you are intending to move to. To stay put can be a better move than a hostile community, or a poor community that has your resources in mind.
-- Dave Jones (email@example.com), May 27, 1998.
My wife and I are convinced that TSWHTF with increasing force starting in the Spring of 99 if not sooner. We are still not sure how much force will be exerted nor how far the fecal matter may spread or even if it can be cleaned up.
Buying and stocking a "Safe Haven" 100 miles or so away from us is impractical and expensive. Besides, what do I know about buying a Stratigically located, reliable water sourced, out of the way place with good neighbors? Even if I were lucky enough to find this "Shangri La", will it stay that way? I don't know how to hunt or farm. I couldn't tell a good berry or mushroom from one that would leave you writhing in the dust for days before you gratefully die.
This thread brings out the dangers of human nature. It seems that among those to fear are: Hungry hordes of city people. Hungry neighbors at your new place that rather steal from you than from old neighbors. Military patrols that will confiscate your goods and God knows who else.
As stated, I am no hunter, but if we are to become animals of prey, isn't it better to be mobile instead of holed up or treed?
I have pretty much decided to get a reliable old p/u truck and a shabby old travel trailer. (keep a low profile) Get extra gas tanks installed, and fill up the truck bed with jerry cans of gas. I already have a new 12volt pump that will pump up gasoline from gas station storage tanks if and when the power goes out.
Travel in ever widening circles, staying where it looks good and leaving when it don't If water gets scarce, move on. Same with food and gasoline.
What do you do if your well runs dry, or if your neighbors see you as something good to eat if you are in a cabin? Fight them off today and wait till the next assault tomorrow?
The best part is, if things don't get as bad as I now think, I love camping anyway.
-- Bill Solorzano (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 27, 1998.
I have noticed that during disasters such as ice storms, etc., the power is always restored to the cities and towns first. I plan on riding it out in the village that I live in. I know my neighbors are good people. The hoards of hungry looters is being way overblown in my opinion.
-- Annie (email@example.com), May 27, 1998.
I live in the SFBay area close to Fremont. There are 4 million people in the Bay Area. There is the triangle of SJ-Oakland-SF and I just don't see how I could stand the havoc.
If I weren't 19... well, for now it looks like my fam is staying put.
NM sounds good though. Also- I just ordered TB from Amazon. So many people I talk to in 'real life' give me the "it's all good/ the world will be here tomorrow" spiel. Except for a couple smart ones in the know. (see figure A: http://surf.to/myplace)
-- Ken (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 31, 1998.
The biggest problem with bugging out to another community is that unless you have some roots in that community you will not be accepted. Rural communities will accept people who move in, buy a good hunk of land and put a real house on it--even if they are only occasional users. These newcomers are not moving into quarter acre trailer parks. While I have not against this style of living, you have to understand the intense fear of this in many rural communities. Once again, if youa re bugging out, you must buy land, build or remodel, join a local religious organization, become familiar with the township surpervisors, change your driver's licence address to the new place, get l a local bank account, get a local PO box. If its rural, join the local gun club, and generally do whatever you can to become know by at least some people in the community. If you fail to make these precautions, in a crises, the loacals will see you as an interloper coming into cause them problems. Glenna
-- Glenna Kamoroff (email@example.com), May 31, 1998.
IMHO, your plan to drive around and graze is stupid. It is far easier to hole up somewhere with food and water than start on a 3rd millenium version of The Promised Land! The roads will be deathtraps by late January. People like you won't be the hunter but the hunted. I can see it now, you and the little lady are cruising down some backroad state highway and small arms fire takes out the driver cause hungry somebody wonders what's in the trailer. DONT DO IT! Find a spot and lay low, you will meet fewer people and up your chances of survival.
-- Will Huett (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 31, 1998.
Glenna, you are right that some small towns can be a problem for newcomers. We were lucky and moved to one in the 70's near the Idaho-Nevada border where we planned to farm a few acres.The people are friendly, the climate and soil is ideal for gardening. There is abundant spring water for gravity irrigation. A couple of years ago we subdivided into homesites. Our neighbor is raising grain but the grain prices are so low that he does not expect to make a profit because there are huge amounts of grain stored in our area. If the SHTF we'll always have bread and water, even if we don't prepare for the possible BIG EVENT.
-- A.H.Sutterlin (email@example.com), May 31, 1998.
For the past few weeks, my aim has been to secretly build up a "stash" for myself--only! But watching some of the others walk by, outside my windows, in this HUD-subsidized community for low-income seniors, somethings started happening in my conscience. Thankfully, I have a little savings to dip into. But what about the 160+ others here? If I helped one of them, when the times comes, how many others might be banging on my door? What to do? I decided to talk to the manager, present her with printed info I've taken off the Net, get a committee together with her, and figure out how we can ALL survive this TOGETHER! If we start early enough, we should be able to set up a food bank here, in addition to our own private larders. I think neighbors better begin making similar plans, whether living in apartment complexes, city homes, suburbs, or whatever. For those who are going to hide in the woods, in caves, on islands or whatever, how about giving a carton of non-perishables to a food bank, shelter, Salvation Army, Red Cross, whatever, before you disappear? What we sow, we reap. I don't blame those with families who want to get out of the city, etc., and go wherever they can to protect them, but I hope you, too, will also sow something for the less fortunate. The less we help each other in this mess ahead, the worse it's going to be for all of us! Great-granny Holly
-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), May 31, 1998.
Holly, thank you for a most wonderful post! I wish you were my neighbor! Good luck and keep us posted!
-- Annie (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 31, 1998.