There is going to come a time when you may/will have to protect what you have worked so hard to get . start looking at what you may need for home protection , and look at ordering ammo now , buy in bulk lots cheeper !!!

i wanted to see what kind of responce this would get ?

mongo

-- Ronald C Cash (rjcash@fred.net), May 12, 1998

Answers

I don't like guns. I don't like the idea of guns around my house. I don't like the idea of having guns around my kids. I now have a gun and "ammo" in my house.

-- Zered (bankboy@anon.com), May 13, 1998.

Mongo - I purchase ammo in bulk when I can afford to, otherwise I keep an eye out for sales and bargains at the gun shows.

Zered - No matter what gun you purchased, make sure that you learn how to use it safely, responsibly, and well. Practice a lot with it - it will do you no good if you're scared to shoot it. A firearm is merely a tool. The person holding it determines its use for good or for ill.

-- Melinda Gierisch (gieriscm@hotmail.com), May 13, 1998.

I was hopeing to see this kind of response, i am real glad i am not the only one .

any one need contacts for stuff(not a bussness) e me and i can get you some good spots , i bought a case 1000rdS(5.56mm) for 160 dollars about the best price I have seen .

ron

-- Ronald C Cash (rjcash@fred.net), May 13, 1998.

Just loaded up on ammo. Had guns but hate them. I don't see a choice now! Thanks for the reminder. I need more ammo!

-- Annie (anniegaff@mailexcite.com), May 13, 1998.

I have not touched a gun since I was 16 years old (30 years ago). Then it was only a single shot 22. I have small children and did not want to see an accident happen. I live in a very low crime area of my city and just did not see a need for a gun. NOW I HAVE THREE !!!

-- Steve Watson (swatson1@gte.net), May 13, 1998.

Thanks for the concern. I grew up with guns around. I know how to use them, and now, reluctantly, I'll be showing my eldest son the same.

-- Zered (bankboy@anon.com), May 14, 1998.

I want to add a .22 cal shoulder firearm to my growing collection. I found a brand new Rueger 10/22 carbine, stainless with black nylon stock for $200.00 Is that a fair Price?

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), May 14, 1998.

A follow up: I live in a City of <100,000. I have two large dogs, a gun and live in a quiet neighborhood. I have a backyard waterwell, food and am obtaining chickens. My water, food and protection is in good shape. I don't "feel like" I need to move. What do you think?

-- Zered (bankboy@anon.com), May 14, 1998.

Bill-The standard 10/22 with wood stock and blued barrel retails for around $170 so $200 for the stainless with synthetic stock seems reasonable. The primary reason for stainless/synthetic is corrosion resistance with the temperature/humidity stability of the synthetic stock a secondary benefit. The accuracy of the 10/22 probably doesn't require a synthetic stock, the stability of the stock doesn't come into play until you're dealing with extremely accurate (and expensive!) match rifles. Laminated wood stocks are also more stable than stocks made from single pieces of wood. The standard Ruger stock might already be laminated, I'm not really sure. Btw, I've got a 10/22 and I love it! It's inexpensive, reliable, reasonably accurate, quiet(with subsonic or standard velocity ammo), with virtually no recoil. Get a good scope (I've got a Bushnell Banner 4x36mm) and enjoy. I haven't shot mine for quite a while but plan on practicing with it a lot in the upcoming months. Stay away from the aftermarket high capacity magazines, they tend to misfeed. The standard 10-shot rotary magazine fits flush with the stock and has never jammed on me. There's also quite a few aftermarket tuners who specialize in the 10/22; www.clarkcustomguns.com and www.gunsmoke.com are on the web. I can't vouch for them personally but they certainly seem legit. Prices range from the $300's if you supply the gun to the $500's if they do. Not cheap by any stretch but they do a lot, custom barrels, bedding, trigger jobs, etc. I'm considering going that route but not sure yet.

-- anon (anon@anon.com), May 14, 1998.

Who exactly is it that you anticipate shooting? Your neighbor, their children? Perhaps those who you've warned but didn't take heed (that's everyone I've talked to)? This isn't some damn invasion we are trying to repel. There is no identified enemy that we can justify our action with- these are starving neighbors, friend and relatives. I am doing some calculating but don't have the figures yet. But it seems one can set up a soup and bread line feeding folks for about 15-20 cents per meal. The plan I'm formulating is 3 fold- I am preparing to serve bread and soup at my place. I will have a bit more fancy menu for my own family. I am also caching a quantity of food and supplies in the hills- this is a fallback position I don't assume I'll need but I'm not taking chances. But I don't want to abandon the post until I really see that the situation is completely hopeless- implausible but not to be ruled out. And you know what- starving to death isn't the most unpleasant way to die- from what I've read it isn't painful. I'd rather perish holding my loved ones than survive with blood on my hands.

-- skipper clark (skipper@cncnet.com), May 16, 1998.

Skipper, Take a look at what has been going on in Indonesia. Rioting, looting. Hungry people seem to lose their minds. How long do you think a soup kitchen will last when rioting starts to happen here? Good luck though.

-- Annie (annie@mailexcite.com), May 16, 1998.

On the topic of killing: It would seem a very personal thing. Is a hungry neighbor different than a hungry stranger? How about women and children? It seems that the trick to killing is to make the people you kill impersonal. We can kill "japs" and "zipper heads" much easier than Asian young men. "Krouts" and "hienies" were easier to kill than young german boys. It's easy to be angry at "wetbacks" but how about poor people who are looking for work? The list can go on and on.

Who will the enemy be? How do we identfy them? The guy who asks for soup might be the guy who comes back in the night to rob and kill you. Lets shoot him just to be on the safe side.

We think we are all ready to defend our property to the death, and we probably are. How do we defend against a squad of soldiers or police who politely and well armed, knock on our door and tell us that we must surrender our firearms and food? Do we shoot the bastards? All of whom are the sons and fathers of fellow Americans?

I don't think that things will go "belly up" on New years 2000. I doubt that it's going to be like a giant light switch snapping off. I think we will see a gradual decline before and after the event. I am not old enough to remember the great depression, but I don't think everyone lost their jobs the day after the crash.

I don't know the answers to any of this, nor do you I suspect. But I think that we owe it to our own humanism to examine the question and then kill if we must.

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), May 16, 1998.

More thoughts- it is inevitable that there will be folks at my door- I will be prepared to feed say 20 folks for a month or two. I will make it clear they must be discrete- their access to the food will be jepardized if not kept secret. Its unfortunate but you can't save everyone. These folks will be of benefit to my family- that watch in the night, news gatherers and foragers. They may be in hazardous situations instead of my family- I think survival depends on a group working together (I've lived by myself in the woods and am aware of the hazards when not in a group). I most likely will have a sidearm on as I pass out meals. Its use is a last resort, and a poor one. I just want to present reasons why it would be wise to provision for more than your immediate family.

-- skipper clark (skipper@cncnet.com), May 16, 1998.

Skipper-People like yourself who are both compassionate and well prepared will be a great asset to your community should things get that bad. Having food on hand would also make you a possible target for those inclined to use force, whether private or governmental. Hopefully just displaying your sidearm would be enough to deter the casual opportunists(won't do much to stop the more organized ones, though). Hard to believe rational, literate adults are discussing the possibility of starvation and civil unrest in 20th century America, isn't it? I wouldn't of believed it myself just two years ago. I don't really think it will come to that, it's just too hard to accept. Still, it's better to be somewhat prepared and look foolish than the alternative. As far as Bill's question about the polite, well armed troops confiscating food and weapons, I have no comment. None whatsoever. Not here, anyway. ;-)

-- Robert (bob123@xyz.com), May 16, 1998.

I have never shot a gun before nor have I held one in my hands. my wife does not believe in having guns in the house and she has given me the altamatum, but since I've talking about Y2k she is starting to come around. I was talking to my little sister the other day and she said that she would like to learn how to shot as well. Where do we start? There is some winchester defender shot guns on sale for $220. seems like a good deal. also Im looking at a berreta semi-auto 380 cheetah $329. HK usp45 $479 S&W 457 $349.S&W sigma 9mm $239. Intratec AB-10 9mm 30rd.$179. or are revolvers better? I dont like the idea of shoting somebody ,BUT!, when it come's to protecting my family...that's another story. I plan on having extra food,water etc. for my neighbors and sharing the love of Jesus christ with them and the plan of Salvation, but please, don't take advantage of my family.

-- david (pingpongdave@dreamsoft.com), May 17, 1998.

David,

For anyone that is not firearm 'literate', IMHO, there is only one weapon, the shotgun, 12 guage. Unless you decide that you enjoy shooting and want to become proficient for the enjoyment of it, stay away from the rest. You won't be effective if ( God forbid ) you should ever need it. ( Or your wife needs it, or your child... ) Missing is very difficult with a sawed off shotgun, and that is very important. What may be as important is that the person you're aiming at will also understand this bit of physics. This can in it self, prevent your needing to use the weapon. I would suggest a semi-automatic. Remove the plug that comes in the magazine so that you can load as many shells as possible. If ever the Lord sees fit to place you in a position to defend, just pull the trigger again and again.

Shalom.

-- Will Huett (willhuett@usa.net), May 17, 1998.

David:

There is an effective and inexpensive 12gs. shotgun you can buy at Walmart for $207.00 plus tax. The Winchester mod 1300 defender. The barrel is the min legal length: 18" It can hold up to 7 rds. in the magazine, plus one in the chamber for 8 total. buck shot is 33cal each pellet. They stuff 9 to 15 pellets in a shell. thats an awuful lot of fire power. A rifled slug can be 1oz or 1.5oz. That is a biiiiiigggg. bullet.

As to a handgun, I would recommend a .38 Cal revolver. The Ammo is cheaper than a .357 Mag by at least 1/2 though you can shoot .38 ammo in a 357mag revolver but not visa versa. I like the revolver because there are few moving parts and no safety. Just point and shoot. If you don't get him with six rounds your probably not going to get him. Get a good revolver, S&W or Colt. They have a much better resale value than some of the less expensive brands.

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), May 17, 1998.

A comment was made regarding the needs of the neighborhood:

"I plan on having extra food,water etc. for my neighbors and sharing the love of Jesus christ with them and the plan of Salvation, but please, don't take advantage of my family".

The Plan of Salvation offered by God through Jesus Christ, also includes the Promises of Protection and Provision. Before we engage in shooting those who do not know of God's Salvation and are afraid for their lives, let's think how we might help them.

It would be hard to show the Love of Christ after we have killed them. We will be held responsible for all of our actions.

-- Dave Jones (dfj@fea.net), May 17, 1998.

This issue of taking up arms to defend oneself and our 'stuff' is a very heart-rending issue of anguish. To kill to protect one's own life may be different than killing to protect loved ones or even the weak stranger, but the issue calls forth such mixed emotions for the true disciple of Christ, that the only answer is to be found in prayerful waiting upon God to make clear His will for a given situation. If we plan ahead to kill to protect our lives, how much time did that bullet by us? Will his relatives now burn down our house for revenge? And, are we emotionally or physically prepared to dig graves to for dead bodies?

My comments today betray what I've been saying about using this forum for 'preaching', but since so many Christians are having the same thots as me, something needs to be said. I've been wrestling with this issue for months, and debating some of the best spiritual minds on another forum. So far I've come to only one conclusion and that is that Y2K will be the BIG test of our faith and dependance upon God. We may have the opportunity to put our faith into practice, i.e. to either live by the sword or by the promises of God. He is either worthy to be trusted for physical protection or He's not worthy of resting the eternal destiny of ours souls upon. I suggest that we spend time praying that our decisions be made in accordance with Gods divine will and not according to popular, sensible, logical, and humanistic opinion.

-- Roy (roy@techcomm.net), May 17, 1998.

Firearms aren't only useful for defense against rioters or people bent on ill-will toward you and your family. A .22 will be invaluable for keeping varmints such as squirrels, rabbits, skunks, raccoons, and even crows from decimating your vegetable garden. Plus, squirrel and rabbit aren't bad at all for eating!

-- Melinda Gierisch (gieriscm@hotmail.com), May 18, 1998.

This i got to say!!!! Was it not Jesus who said 'sell your coat to buy a sward " Well this is my sward!! I have been getting e mails from a few about how I should love my fellow man . Sure but i am not going to feed /and provide shelter for every one . The word is out there to prepair and some are not . So why do i have to do it for them . Then there this feeling that having a gun is bad . Well i have one thing to say about that.BULL!!!! all of you christians who are so apposed to having a gun for protection are full of BULL Do you think that God wants you to just sit there and let what ever hords that will come from this rape your children while you watch !!! I dont think so , you are the same ones who are good little people who pay your taxes so that you can hire some one else to carry a gun for you ,after all you are the first one to call the police when you see someone that you do not like in you little world .So it looks like now you will have to do the dirty work your self, becuse the cops arent going to come!!!and to all who are with me on this post about defending your self this is not for you , this is for thoes panty waist people who havent got the guts to do Gods will. TAKE CARE OF YOUR FAMLY!!! and if that means I spend my life in hell for defending my famly so be it !

mongo

-- Ronald C Cash (rjcash@fred.net), May 18, 1998.

Just as testing is an important part of remediation , for those preparing, envisioning scenarios is equally important.. Okay, some burly thug (your perception, actually hungry and scared is more like it) is trying to break down your door. As he crashes through you fire and hit him in the stomach. Down he falls. There is blood everywhere, but he's not dead. A cop told me one he saw someone shot 14 times with a 9mm handgun, but didn't die. What do you do next? Continue shooting till he quits thrashing around as you listen to his screams for mercy? Has he now become your medical patient you must now use precious supplies on? Are you going to transport him somewhere so he is someone elses problem- exposing yourself to external chaos and danger? With his blood everywhere what diseases have you now exposed your family to? Those blood stains aren't disappearing from your rug- but remain as a horible reminder. Post traumatic stress syndrome is real- it is caused by exposure to just such scenarios. How will your children, your wife, you cope? I've been a fireman exposed to bloody scenes with people screaming for help. Those cries ring in you ears for a long time. I can't imagine what those sounds inside my head would be like knowing I was the source of their creation. Can you?

-- skipper clark (skipper@cncnet.com), May 19, 1998.

You people are getting far too carried away with this topic. Its taking on some of the tenor of the Misc.survivalism. By that I mean that people seem to believe that in order to defend yourself you need some kind of weapon or weapsons that have to be as big as a howitzer. You don't. Looters are basically a cowardly bully type lot. They are easily scared away. All you need is is somehting to ppick up some small animals, which is proably all that would be around after the big ones havve been hunted out rather quickly. This would mean a simple .22 cal rimfire rifle, and maybe a .22 rimfire revolver. Anyone who doesn't find these intimidating in a situation where the possibility of medical help is much much less is probably too crazy to be scares away by anything less than a howitzer anyhow. GK

-- Glenna Kamoroff (kamoroff@hotmail.com), May 19, 1998.

Well as for living with the horrors that fellow man can inflict on each other , I can say that I live with thoes sounds everyday of my life now . I think that the main point that is trying to be made here is that there may be a HUGE change in the way things are done in the next couple of years . Someone spoke about going to a medical center for help , what medical center ? I can speak from a lot of experence that if any hospital gets hit with 100 injured on there door steps the system breaks down , I happen to know that here in the little town that i now live in if there ER has more than 25 they go in to a panic and call in everyone they can . What happens when they go to call and the phone will not work ,or if it does and most people stay home to take care of there famly . This is a SYSTEM WIDE problem , we have relied on tech to do our work for us too long .

mongo

-- Ronald C Cash (rjcash@fred.net), May 19, 1998.

I would just like to share some thoughts about defending yourself in Y2K. Possibly there are some other like-minded people out there, although it doesn't sound like it. Our family are Christians who are non-resistant. We do not go to war or defend ourselves physically in any way. We pray and trust God to protect us and if He chooses to allow us to die, then we will actually be in a better place than here on earth. Jesus instructs us to "turn the other cheek" and not to lean on the arm of flesh. Many places in the New Testament instruct us not to kill people for any reason. We are preparing for Y2K with food, water, heat, etc., but we will not have a gun. We are pilgrims and strangers in this world and are most concerned with preparation for the coming eternal world. Hopefully there are others who are doing the same.

Mary

-- Mary (Beachyfe@hotmail.com), May 30, 1998.

After browsing through the posts, I found myself wondering where are the "poker faces"? the first rule in ANY self- defense situation is to keep any potential opponent wondering as to your ability to defend youself- this goes much further to dissuade any potential attack. A badguy is going to be less than willing to press an attack if he has an idea that you're one of the "silent but deadly" types. Assuming he/she/it is rational, of course. Also, what will you do if TSHTF and the fecal/oscillatory interface outlasts your food supplies? Even in suburban and urban areas there are plenty of wild growing plants that one can pick and eat to sustain themselves. Dandelion comes to mind, as does wild mustard. Grab youselves some edible plant guides and begin to familiarize yourselves with what can be nibbled upon and what should be left alone. I can remember a walk that T. and I went on in downtown Chico, Ca where she pointed out to me several varieties of edible and medicinal plants- plants that I had previously thought were useless. Nibbled on some, too- good stuff, ya know. Also, begin to be aware of your surroundings-who is around, etc. this is all stuff that may be used by pacificists also. Nobody wishes to see society totally disappear, at least for a time, but if it does, do you know what to do to survive without food supplies, or at least until the garden comes in in the summer-assuming that it does, which it doesn't always, bugs and weather notwithstanding.

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), August 23, 1998.

This is totally useless information. If I have to resort to eating roots and berries, I'll blow my brains out!

-- Gaggy (won'tEATgrubs@gag.com), August 23, 1998.

My husband and I have many guns and have bows and arrows for hunting. We are stocking up on ammo, mostly for the ability to hunt. I think that is the reason for most. Of course, anything you can hunt with, you can protect yourself with. We can't afford to go buy tons of food all in one shot, but have been busily drying and canning, and what we couldn't get to grow in our garden this year, we buy cheaply at the produce stands in our area. If anyone is concerned about hoards of hungry neighbors storming their doors, one solution is soup. Buy the bulk boullion. Canning or even buying canned tomatoes is cheap. ad just a little of this and that, and you will have a lot of soup. Rice is also extremely cheap. For literally pennies, you can keep a huge pot of soup going on for a very long time. Enough to be a little charitable if you so desire. I plan on taking into account, family and neighbors who may not be as prepared as we will be. I grew up poor, and know that basic food is very affordable for everyone if they know how to cook it.

-- Kelly Crocker (kellyc87@hotmail.com), August 28, 1998.

It's interesting to me that some people are so afraid of firearms. I'm afraid of the person holding the fireame and their intentions. We get into our cars everyday and think twice how dangerous that can be or who or what we might face on the road (drunk drivers, road rage, etc...). A firearm are as dangerous as the person that is holding it, just as a vehicle is as dangerous as the person operating it. Remember, driving a vehicle involves responsiblity, awareness, and knowledge. Likewise, firearms require responsiblity, awareness, and knowledge. The bottom line is if it's necessary, I want to be able to protect my loved ones and myself.

-- WMA (whome@soyhland.net), January 02, 1999.

Mary, all I can tell you is that a lot of other Christians have looked at this issue, and have concluded that it is ok to use deadly force to defend one's self and one's family. (Has something to do with the interpretation of "Thou shalt not murder" rather than "Thou shalt not kill".) If there were ever a time in you life to re-think and re-consider your pacifist stand, it is now. Good luck.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), January 02, 1999.

I don't intend on buying a gun at this point. I am a Christian. I have read the many posts here. I can only conclude that, our founding fathers were Christians or claimed such. They had no problem with defending themselves against enemies. They would not have had and did not have a problem with protecting their family or their way of life. If someone was breaking into my home to cause me or my husband harm, I would hope that my husband would do what was needed to protect us. God help us all in our decisions

-- Beth Tams (lulu010101@aol.com), January 03, 1999.