Might God have anything to do with Y2K?greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
I am a licensed Christian minister and a former CPA in Public accounting and in private industry. I served as a CIO for four years. For this reason, this problem has met my faith in a way that may qualify me to address this issue from a unique perspective. As I have reviewed this web site, my impression is that most of the people making comments are not Christians or Jews and are not aware of the statements made in the bible that may relate to this situation. My time in the ministry has centered primarily in prophecy and in the study of signs of the end of the age. I tend to believe that Y2K is a very significant sign. I also believe that I am more informed about biblical signs of the "end of the age" than most Christian ministers because I have studied these things intensely. I do detect some negativism toward any thinking that this situation may be related to some foretold event. Some who comment seem to think it is lunacy to believe in God. I assure you that I have not had to shut down my brain to follow Christianity or to research Y2K. Perhaps there are some of you out there who would like to ask an approachable Christian minister some questions about the bible. I will not go off on you or condemn you. I won't treat you like a fool. You can ask anonymously. I have many friends who are non Christians and I believe in being a friend and a good neighbor. I invite you to answer the question "Might God have anything to do with Y2K?"
-- Rev. Stephen L. Bening (Gammadim@AOL.com), April 23, 1998
Rev. Stephen L. Bening, I am sure to be scorned by readers as I answer but not caring much. I do believe that Y2K has much to do with God. First, I find it analogous to the Tower of Babel; confused languages. Second, I am quite familiar with Bible prophesies regarding a one world government, religion and economic system outlined mostly in Daniel and Revelation. Third, Jesus prophesied about famine, pestilence, war, crime, and earthquakes increasing like a woman's birthpangs worldwide in the end time. Y2K could certainly contribute to all of these save earthquakes. (Research it and you will be surprised to find out that earthquakes have increased DRAMATICALLY since even as recently as 1960.)Lastly, if the world should experience such calamity, this would be the perfect setting for the emerging of the Anti-christ. Some charismatic leader who will seem to pull it all together and whom everyone will love and adore. Go ahead folks, have a field day with this response. None of you who criticize this post and its writer have any knowledge about what is in the Bible and how extremely accurate and perfect its prophesies are. The Bible has never been proved wrong historically or prophetically. Did you know that the re-emergence of the State of Israel and the gathering of Jews from all nations to her was prophesied 2500 years ago? Do you know that Revelation predicted 2000 years ago that there would be a cashless society in the end time? Well watch closely as the electronic funds tranfer system slowly strips the cash from your hands. Also the Anti-christ causes all inhabitants of the earth to take a mark (microchip) in their hand or else you will not be able to buy or sell. The smart card is the predecessor to the Mark of the Beast. You all must be ROTFL by now. Read your Bibles and learn about the future of the world! Then receive Jesus as the Messiah of the world and your personal Lord and Savior and become a child of God. Then there will be nothing for you to worry about.
God Bless, John
-- John Daniels (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 23, 1998.
I hate to be critical of any who stand for Christ and the Bible, since I'm a committed Christian believer. I'm not a licensed minister, but if I were, I certainly wouldn't usurp the prominence of Almighty God by calling myself 'reverend'. That term is used only once in scripture, and that to describe the majesty of almighty God. "...holy and reverend is HIS name" (Ps. 111:9). Notice please...no capital 'R' in reverend!
Some of you who continue to disregard the wishes of the list owner and most participants by Christian expression, are probably religious but not right with God, therefore you're excused! Others of you may be fellow believers, and if so, I reluctantly and painfully admonish you here, directly and publicly, because participants who are unbelievers need to know that you DO NOT speak for those of us who honor the Word of God and walk humbly before Him.
Who are you to think that God needs you so badly to do His job for Him that He will excuse your disobedience to His Word? Why are you so uncaring for others that you insist on blasting readers with scriptural innuendo and derogitory remarks? Who are you to think that God will reward your disobedience by saving the souls of those you crassly address and often preach to in ignorance?
Some have left this forum because we who call ourselves 'Christian' have abused the privelege extended by another, and have unwisely imposed ourselves upon people who have asked that we simply obey the rules. By doing so we are not only hindering the work of God, but are bringing shame and disgrace upon the name of the one we profess to serve. We are not responsible for the salvation of souls... God is, and He will never honor disobedience in our service to Him.
On behalf of every true believer on this list, I humbly apologize for the un-Christian behaviour and careless attitude of those of us who have yet to learn what it means to be a servant of the Most High.
-- Roy Cave (email@example.com), April 23, 1998.
Conceivably, I suppose. If so, I imagine I'll find out about it when I die.
Prior to that time, I guess I don't think it's much worth worrying about. I try to live my life in a moral way whether or not God has something nasty planned for me. If He does have something nasty planned for me, in all likelihood I won't know that He was doing it until it's done.
So why waste the energy worrying about it? Those who are inclined to live their lives in a moral way will do so: those who aren't won't. Some who won't can be convinced to do otherwise: most can't.
So beyond a certain point, why worry about it?
If, however, God is directly responsible for making innocents suffer because of the sins of others, I'd have to wonder why? What, precisely, have the rest of us done to deserve suffering? Isn't the concept of group punishment something you leave behind in gradeschool?
As a parent, I'm in favor of the concept of rewarding good behavior and punishing bad. If one of my daughters sticks her hand in the cookie jar and the other doesn't, I don't punish them both. If I did, the one who'd done nothing would learn that it doesn't matter what she does, the consequences for good and bad behavior are identical.
If God is analagous to a parent and is interested in punishing the evil, why would he punish the good along with them?
I understand that according to doctrine, none of us is without sin. But from my perspective, there's a range of sinful. I may have committed a few sins in my time, but I've never murdered anyone, nor even ever caused someone physical harm.
Would a just God punish me the same way he would punish a murderer? If so, why?
-- "John Smith" (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 24, 1998.
John Smith... since you're a confessed unbeliever, you can be expected to break the rules of this forum, as well as lure true believers into doing likewise. However, as a believer, I'll gladly answer your question off-line if you'll e-mail me directly, demonstrating a serious interest in knowing what God has in store for you.
-- Roy Cave (email@example.com), April 24, 1998.
Dear Mr. Roy Cave:
"I hate to be critical"- Yes, it appears that you are.
"Unbelievers need to know that you DO NOT speak for those of us who honor the Word of God"- Are you sure? How do you know me so well?
"You insist on blasting readers with scriptural inuendo"-Roy, it seems the only blasting that has been done has been by you.
"I would not usurp the prominence of God by calling myself reverend."- I use the designation Rev. because my church licensed me to preach. It is the standard in our society to indicate those in ministry. It allows me to enter jails, prisons and hospitals where I could not go when I was unlicensed. It proves nothing to God. It opens some doors and in your case, closes others. Could it be that somewhere in your past, you were deeply hurt by a Rev.? I sorry if you were.
"Some of you continue to disregard the wishes of the list owner"- I first found out about Y2K on 4/17/98. That makes me one of the lemmings. I am no "Know It All!" I first found this web site on 4/23/98 and immediately posted this question. Thank you for the warm welcome! I had no idea there were rules. Once again, just ignorant. I am a newcomer to Y2K, this web site and the internet in general. I do know Jesus of Nazareth. I hear his voice. I know the bible pretty well. You say you know him, yet you have condemned me. I told the people in posting my question that I would not condemn them or make fun of them. Your posting to "John Smith" bothers me more. "Sinners" and "People without God" loved to be around Jesus. John, I hope you can feel comfortable communicating with me. I am not going to beat you over the head with a bible or tell you that your behavior can be excused because you are a confessed unbeliever. Gee, I think you got insulted there! I would like to hear from John about this. Does he feel in any way drawn to seek out Jesus by what Roy has written? Or does he feel repelled? Would somebody please E Mail me the rules of this forum? I will refrain from answering any further question until I review the rules.
-- Rev. Stephen L. Bening (Gammadim@AOL.com), April 24, 1998.
Rev. Steve: Carol Levergood is a Christian who feels she has been divinely inspired to develope a recipe using the ingredients for a bread found in Ezekial 4:9. You might feel inspired to relate her info to those you minister to. Her # is 407-254-1477. She started in her ministry about 15 years ago. I've tested mix she had canned back then (at no profit, I'm glad to report) and it is still good. Alas, her olive oil has turned to paint thinner. Here is the name of an elderly gentleman processing olive oil in a maner consistent with that produced in biblical times- 530-589-0203. I enjoy supplying good info- and maybe making a little cash off a book on food storage I wrote. Keep your preaching topical and I imagine even us unwashed may find it intersting. The Hopi had some good prophetic material but I don't see the world from their view point either- so I'm afraid fulfilled prophesy isn't a selling point to me- sorry but Jesus lost me when he blasted the fig tree just because it didn't have any fruit on it. Being a gardner by trade I'm a bit sensitive to such behavior.
-- skipper clark (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 24, 1998.
I found your question very thought provoking and have considered the Tower of Babel connection myself! :) y2k is an issue that is hard to totally separate from our faith or personal beliefs as we are talking "life and death" scenarios after y2k, according to some knowledgeable folks. Our faith is certainly going to come into play after y2k and will be as vital as water, shelter or food for that matter. Somehow I don't think Ed Yourden would take offense at this line of discussion. God Bless you!
-- Susan C. (email@example.com), April 25, 1998.
To those of you who have followed this thread, please accept my apology for my uncharitable response to Stephen Bening's question.
Mr. Bening and some other Christians are new to the forum and were not aware that there had been conflict over the issue of religious discussion or that there were rules of order by which to abide. I have contacted Mr. Bening directly and asked his forgivness, now I do so publicly.
Believers are held to a very high standard of conduct because they represent the one who holds the key to life eternal, and will be held accountable for leading others astray. My desire that the walk of fellow believers match their high calling has caused me to over-react to forum posts and speak harshly and unkindly of others.
Mr. Bening chooses to use a title before his name with which I do not agree. However, I should have e-mailed him personally rather than condemning this widespread policy publicly.
Finally, it would be fitting that those of us who serve the Lord do our utmost to avoid giving any advantage to the enemy of our souls by thoughtless, careless action. In the future I trust that my personal involvement will reflect these thoughts, and that I shall think twice as much as I speak.
Unworthy but His, Roy Cave
-- Roy Cave (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 25, 1998.
To sum up all of this dribble.
GOD will NEVER reveal to YOU more than he EXPECTS out of YOU. Thats why convictions should never get in the way of fact. To some, like Mr. Cave he expects more of than he expects out of ohers. One interesting point here is that it seems that the majority of the non Believers would be comfortable to just crucify them for their stating there beliefs and opinions. Sounds like history repeating itself to me.
-- (email@example.com), April 26, 1998.
Since Ed Yourdon confirms to me by E mail that this forum has no set rules against faith centered discussion, I am now "on line" again for any discussion concerning this topic. I asked the question because I don't really know the answer for sure. My belief is that God allows trouble to come into a believer's life, but he does not personally send it. As for those who are not believers in God, He is not required to provide angelic oversight, although He may choose to do so. I can see where this Y2K situation might provide fertile ground for the rise of the man the bible calls "the man of sin." The world calls him "Antichrist". My discovery of Y2K has caused me to start an in depth study of what the bible says about "the man of sin." Who will he be? What will he be like? What will he do? I want to be able to recognize him as early as I can. This is of the utmost importance to me, because the bible says that the Church of Jesus Christ will remain on the earth until 1) The great apostasy (of Jews and perhaps Christians) occurs and 2) The man of sin will be revealed. When these two events occur, Christians will join Jesus in the heavens. The bible says we will be "caught up to be with Christ in the air." Since the "great apostasy" I refer to will most likely be a re-enactment of what happened in Israel in 170 B.C. when Antiochus Epiphanes, the Syrian ruler, required Jews to abandon their religion and desecrate their temple and synagogues, I look for the rise of a political leader who will have great authority, especially in the area where treaty makers are made famous: the Middle East. My study is ongoing. Readers can have my list of characteristics of the man of sin by dropping me a line on E Mail. God Bless.
-- Rev. Stephen L. Bening (Gammadim@AOL.com), April 27, 1998.
Mr. Bening, I accept your word that Ed Yourdon has no objection to the discussion of issues of faith on his forum. But, inasmuch as the majority of forum participants object to religious discussion here, why should Christians insist on making it a platform for a particular line of doctrinal thought?
If your primary concern is the salvation of souls; and Ed Yourdon has no objection to you preaching here; and in good conscience you feel it's the will of God for you to do so; then, by all means go to it!
However, if your primary interest is religious debate, I can assure you that the place for you to function best is Gary North's Christian forum. I've previously given you the URL. There you can debate y2k issues and doctrinal issues with the best teachers of theology and students of prophecy. Some of these have pre-trib, pre-mil, post-mil, A-mil, and even preterist persuasions. Keep in mind however, that there you will not be able to command a captive audience, and only the hardiest students of the Word survive.
Now, aside from answering your question just this once, I personally will honor the wishes of the participants on this forum, and avoid discussing publicly that which offends them. However, if I can be of spiritual help to any, (privately) they can always e-mail me.
In answer to your question: "Might God have anything to do with Y2K?", every true believer should know with absolute certainty that the answer is categorically and emphatically "YES".
Simply His, Roy
-- Roy Cave (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 27, 1998.
Please share the URL for Gary North's christian forum. Thanks, Susan
-- Susan (email@example.com), April 27, 1998.
I think this is the forum they are talking about which used to be Gary North's General Discussion Forum. Be careful as you will come away bloodied if you post anything they do not agree with. As Mr. Cave stated above only the hardiest can hold their own in the religious discussions.
Even though I am posting this url, it is not one I recommend or endorse in any way.
One of the reasons I like this forum is that religion has not been a part of it until now. If it becomes taken over by religious parties, I will leave this forum also as will many others.
-- Rebecca Kutcher (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 27, 1998.
If I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, which I am; and I am also a technologist and graduate student, which I am as well - why must I be asked to restrict my thinking in false categorizations of "secular" and "non-secular"? I think it's incorrect to say that my faith must end at the doorstep of my thought. The "save that stuff for Sunday" mentality has always bothered me as a thinking person. Blaise Pascal was both a thinker *and* a committed, devoted follower of Jesus Christ. The same can be said of many great minds. I don't enjoy being mocked for my faith in Jesus, but if someone wants to condemn me for confessing faith in Jesus, like the Apostles, I consider it a high honor of which I'm unworthy of.
Thankful beyond description that Jesus Christ loves me and has paid for my sins with His death at Calvary,
-- Chuck Boyce (email@example.com), April 28, 1998.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but did you notice that your attitude toward God (namely, "wait-and-see") sounds very much like the attitude you attribute to your wife regarding the Y2K problem?
-- Dianne Smith (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 29, 1998.
Could it be that God allowed this flaw to happen in order to fullfill his prophecy? This appears to be the case. Y2k is like the Titanic. The Titanic saw the iceberg but could not turn in time. We now see Year 2000 only 600+ days away and most companies, governments, utilities and world financial institutions are not able to react in time. God has created a time for great ministry. With total financial collapse and no power.. we need to turn to God. We must prepare ourselves now. For more I recommend you vistit this site: http://www.prophecyclub.com Listen to the tapes by the great prophets Dumitri Dudeman and Jonathan Hansen. Hansen predicted the Kobe earthquake and Asian Financial problems. He is now predicting total world-wide financial collapse soon. Hansen, who gets audiences with rulers all over the world, is also predicting an major earthquake in the US. Dudeman, who died recently, was accurate on 14 messages from God, he has predicted that "American Will Burn" soon, no later than November 1998. Russia will invade the US when we are arguing internally. Visit http://www.prophecyclub.com
-- Del Ball (email@example.com), April 29, 1998.
I see Y2K as fertile ground for the man of sin/antichrist to grow in. The entire Christian Church is mired in what I consider to be two dangerous errors in thinking:
1) They believe he, the man of sin, cannot come unless a temple is built in Jerusalem on the temple mount. Until it is built, the church will sleep. I believe it will not be built. Since Jesus returned to heaven, the temple is now the human body where the Holy Spirit dwells.
2) They believe that Jesus will remove the church from the Earth before anything really unpleasant happens. Again, I believe this leads to a false hope based on error in understanding.
3) Yasser Arafat is probably the man Daniel saw in the future and described as the little horn. If this is so, we could be very close to biblically described end time events. He apparently meets 50 or the 80 characteristics of this little horn right now.
Christians and non-Christians alike are asleep. They believe everything is going to go as it has, that all is well and don't disturb my sleep. I believe Y2K is a ringing alarm clock with a big snooze button.
Rev. Stephen L. Bening
-- Rev. Stephen L. Bening (Gammadim@AOL.com), May 03, 1998.
I think that what is happening with y2k has a certain pattern, and a certain inevitability about, which one could ascribe to being "part of God's Plan". We have failed as stewards of the planet. Pesticides, pollution, the destruction of natural resources (rainforests, etc.) has put the planet on the road to being unable to sustain human life. This is the result of misapplied science, ignorance, greed. Now the seeds of destruction of science have been planted in computers, and we will be forced to live in harmony with nature, in tribes, in units too small to cause damage to the earth. One wonders if this cycle has happened before. Eating from the Tree of Knowledge indeed.
-- David Hammer (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 28, 1998.
whoops, that phrase in the first sentence should have read,"and a certain inevitability about it,"
P.S. I suggest we stop talking about WHY, and focus on WHAT (to do about it).
-- David Hammer (email@example.com), May 28, 1998.
I've been an atheist most of my life and what David Hammer just wrote really makes sense. Our planet has turned into a "shitball." Our beautiful mother earth is dying. I hate corporate greed!
-- Annie (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 28, 1998.
The reason we're having this Y2K problem is because our calendar is based upon the alleged date of Jesus' birth. If we were using the Jewish calendar, we wouldn't have problems with 2-digit years until 2039. [It's currently 5758] Nevada declared Y2K an "act of God" (for lawsuit and insurance purposes). For those who believe in Jesus, that's exactly what it is.
-- Elisabeth Riba (email@example.com), June 18, 1998.
You said that the reason for the y2k computer dating problem is not "because our calendar is based upon the alleged date of Jesus' birth". The reason for the y2k computer dating problem is that decision-makers for computer systems decided to infer the century, rather than explicity code it in the software applications they developed. When the century rolls over, the 20th century will be behind us and no longer can the 20th century be inferred.
The problem results from a decision by people on how to engage in computer programming, not the western world's calendar that is divided by the historical life of Jesus of Nazareth.
-- Chuck Boyce (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 19, 1998.
Oops. I made a typo in my comments. Obviously Elizabeth, you said that the reason for the y2k computer dating problem is "because our calendar is based upon the alleged date of Jesus' birth". I failed to remove the word "not" from a previous edit of my remarks. Sorry for the sloppy editing.
-- Chuck Boyce (email@example.com), June 19, 1998.
You "bible-thumpers" are not going to like this note from someone who will start believing in god only when proof exists there is a god or two gods or hundreds of gods. But read on because different points of view can be useful in developing your own thoughts. Send me a nasty note if you like, but please be aware I would never criticize your religious beliefs as long as you respect my life, my property and my religious beliefs (none):
Those who believe in God do not have any physical evidence a God exists -- they have faith or hope or wishful thinking or whatever you want to call it. I've been an aethiest for over 40 years so I do not claim to fully understand "faith".
Our belief that the Y2K problem can be solved is similarly based on faith or hope or wishful thinking. There is no proof a large organization is capable of solving Y2K -- not one large organization in the world has even claimed to have completed Y2K remediation (remediation, or code repair, is about half the Y2K job -- testing is the other half). The Social Security Administration, for example started remediation in 1991 and is still not done. It would not be logical to assume humans are capable of fixing Y2K without one completed project at a large organization as proof.
The ministers I've met in my life have generally been very nice people -- really knowledgable about human psychology. I believe our religious leaders will be among the most important people on Earth when computer problems in late 1999/early 2000 cause economic disruptions and probably panics for at least several weeks -- probably several months -- maybe even a year or more. While there is no evidence god has anything to do with Y2K (or that god exists), religious leaders should have a big role to play in getting our world through the coming Y2K "computer nightmare".
Our politicians and business leaders won't help much -- they caused the problem and will pretend they're getting the Y2K job done until actual Y2K computer crashes in 1999 reveal a large majority of computers and embedded systems in the world will not even be looked at before 1/1/2000, much less fixed!
Here's how the Y2K "confidence game" works: Over five years after starting work fixing 33 million lines of computer code, the Social Security Administration discovered another 33 million lines at the 55 state Disabilty Determination Services offices. Realizing they could not fix the additional 33 million lines of code (after almost seven years of work they're still not finished fixing the first 33 million lines!), the SSA declared the new 33 million of code to be "non-mission critical" (in the Y2K game, that means they can't get the code fixed on time so they declare it's not very important and doesn't need to be fixed before 1/1/2000 ... or they'll get around to it in their spare time ... as if they'll have any spare time!). The Department of Defense claims almost 90% of its computer systems are non-mission critical -- and if you believe that, I'd like to sell you a share of the Brooklyn Bridge!
Those of use who know little about computers should spend our time coming up with a Y2K slogan: For you religious types, how about "Pray for Y2K"?
I came up with a Y2K slogan about a year ago when I wrote my first Y2K article in my newsletter ECONOMIC LOGIC: "Y2K: Oy Veh!"
But seriously, I don't know if prayers will help Y2K but they couldn't hurt. I think I'll join you for this one. Some nations have done so little work on Y2K so far they are asking for a debacle -- they'll have to fix computers and embedded systems AFTER they fail ("fix-on-failure strategy") which is much more difficult than than fixing them now, especially if there's no electricity in January 2000!
Bill Gates won't rescue us -- he's part of the Y2K problem -- Microsoft is not Y2K-compliant yet -- along with every other large corporation. Talk of fixing Y2K remains wishful thinking -- possibly even a charade. If you're sure Y2K won't affect your life, then you must be Amish, able to live without electricity and computers, or you're very optimistic -- but I think you will be wrong. Sorry, I get very depressed when writing about Y2K -- I just can't project a happy ending for this story.
-- Richard Greene (Rgreene2@ford.com), June 23, 1998.