paying to get to Heaven......and out of Hellgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Why does a person have to pay for a loved one to go to heaven after they die?I've seen many catholics ask for money for prayer....prayer for a person to go to heaven.I feel that once a person dies then there is nothing in the world to help them go to heaven if they arn't saved before death.And some preists say you can pay them to help get a loved one out of hell,why?why take peoples money and lie like that?
-- roxanna (roxyworld@writemme.com), April 16, 1998
First off, I know lots of priests and I have never heard of a one asking for money to bail someone out of hell. At one time in history this was true. It was a real sad little practice called Indulgences and it got way carried away by some greedy folks. Martin Luther rightfully condemmed its practice in the Reformation.In regards to prayer and the dead: We Catholics believe folks who die do not remain in the grave waiting for the Day of Judgement. Instead we believe there is a inbetween kind of place ( between heaven and hell I mean) and that place is called Purgatory. It is thought that people await the final Judgement while there. It has been a long time practice of Catholics to pray for the dead, it is thought that our prayer can be of some comfort to these souls. Money enters the picture when people have offered donations in exchange for more prayers to be said. The truth is, we really have no idea what EXACTLY becomes of us when we pass. Are we judged then? Later? Do we rest in oblivious peace waiting for the Final Day? It really dosen't matter does it? Just as long as we set our eyes on the goal and walk in the path of our Lord Jesus, we will find all sorts of things out in God's Own Time. Meanwhile, it does not hurt me one bit to continue to pray for my grandmother, in fact, it gives me comfort.
-- Connie Ostlund (sorka@teleport.com), April 23, 1998.
Hello Roxanna,Well I agree you can't "buy" someone into Heaven or out of Hell. And anyone proporting to do this will answer for it I'm sure. The Catholic Church has the Power of the Keys and with that Power the ability to apply the merits of the Church. And again no you don't "buy" them! You obtain them by doing something to which they are attached and meeting certain requirements. There is a New instruction on Indulgences issued in the last several years that explains them and how to obtain them. Pope Paul VI issued an Apostolic Constitution in 1967 on them and it also has very good information in it not only on Indulgences and history but the Communion of Saints and The Treasury of the Church. Unfortunatly many Catholics do not know much about them or regularly obtain them.
FRANCISCAN
-- Rich Pohlman S.F.O. (REPSFO@Prodigy.net), April 28, 1998.
Let us consider the beginning.Imagine endless empty space that goes on into infinity non-existence no awareness EVIL.
If we consider the old saying life finds away. GOD came into being by his own will to be, the awareness. Born out of the non-existence the EVIL.
Imagine an awareness hovering in endless space or Darkness as HE would see it.
After a time his thoughts become collective and he begins to think. He is aware of himself and begins to wonder if there were another. After searching for countless billions of years, the loneliness consumes him into obsession with finding another. But there is no other but him. He splits into two separate entities (schizoid only for real) that are equal and opposite in nature. Light - that which creates (Life - the future). Darkness(SHE : Spirit that inhabits the Darkness- The past) - Destroys makes desolate. Each has the same goal to end the loneliness only they have diametrically opposite positions on how to go about it. Chaos vs. Order, Light vs. Darkness, Life vs. Death, Existence vs. non-existence or Good vs. Evil. GOD is the awareness of being before the Darkness. We stand between the Darkness and the Light. Our true purpose is to Be. For that is the will of GOD - to be because HE is. Ja'El they said. When GOD comes again if he comes into Darkness the Earth will be cleansed with the fire of GOD (His true form). If GOD comes into the Light he will make the Earth a new with the Tree and the River of Life. All things are possible if we believe. The power of the Holy Spirit is promised to us by Jesus Christ.
That is why no one has seen GOD because he became separate from himself. The two have to be united into their new form. They want to come and live us,their children and the Angles of Light and Darkness. We are the key to setting them Free from the loneliness forever. Revelation chap 17 Behold the Beast that was (EVIL or non-existence reined in the beginning there was no awareness) and is not (Evil- the tendency towards non-existence cannot exist in pure form) and yet is (If we lose our sense of awareness the EVIL will return and nothing will exist)
The River of Life is man's final salvation. The fruit of Tree of Life is for the Fallen Angles Consummation, Turn from Darkness back to the awareness of GOD. The Leaves are for the Healing of the Nations. The sword of Power blocks our way to it and blinds us from The one who was (The True GOD, the past) The one who is (Man the children of GOD, the present) The one who will be (Christ - the son of man, the future). We will become like the others and they will become like us. The evolution.
The way is through Awareness - GOD's will to be. Understanding is Knowing the Truth Understanding is Accepting the Truth The Truth leads to Understanding which leads to Awareness which strengthens our will to Be.
The Truth is put before us but, they do everything they can to keep us from Understanding it.
We have to show them that we are not children anymore. That we have learned to Understand the Truth. And the Truth shall set us all Free. They are counting on us and we can't let them down. But it is ultimately up to them to change - Free will.
Mystery? Who are you? Man who stands between the Darkness and the Light. What do you want? Freedom Why are you here? To bring order to chaos. Where are you going? The Future
The End of Time - The New Beginning
-- Darian Borne (shadows@vmbc.net), December 01, 2000.
Friends,If you wish to converse with Mr. Borne, please go to the thread he started (and to which I responded). It is called, "I'm looking for intelligent opinions not blind lashings Thank you." He posted the same message to start that thread. Please do not respond to him here.
SN
-- (free@long.last), December 02, 2000.
When a person dies they either go to one or two places Heaven or Hell. The Bible is very clear on this; there is no such place as purgatory, it's not in the Bible. It should be common sense that purgatory was invented by men to obtain money. How do we know that we go straight to Heaven? 2 CORINTHIANS v. 3.--We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
-- Bill Butler (bbut@hotmail.com), February 05, 2001.
bill, might I suggest you invest in a copy of the Bible as believed by the earliest Christians. Below is something I posted on another thread:Scriptural evidence [for Purgatory] was mentioned in another thread, but it was not given. The problem here is that several books have been cut from non-Catholic versions of the Bible so that versions like the KJV are missing some very important elements that were present for the first 1500 years of Christianity. in 2 Maccabees (one of the removed books), the following appears in chapter 12, verse 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. The damned are in Hell. There's no use praying for them, it's too late. Those in Heaven are in Heaven, there no use praying for them, they don't need it. So where does atonement for the dead come in? This intermediate "cleansing period" that we call Purgatory. One must realize that it is possible that God may not see fit to punish eternally for minor offences, but he cannot allow imperfection into paradise, so we must be cleansed of this minor blemishes beforehand. Is it possible to "skip" Purgatory and go straight to Heaven? Absolutely! This is probably what became of the other crucified man (Lk23:43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."), having made up for his blemishes by suffering on earth, and showing contrition and love of Jesus, he was spared a trip to Purgatory. I mention that line because it is the most often used as an argument against Purgatory, but is not out of sync with the idea at all.
aaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaa
-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 05, 2001.
Dear Mr. Butler,
Due respect and all, You had better hope there is a Purgatory. Maybe I'll see you there, and not U-know-where! Lol!
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 06, 2001.
And, Mr. Butler-- Bill,
You ducked out of answering my post: (Feb 5, Saints and Virgin Mary) -- WHY?You had no problem stating your erroneous opinions in the matter. As soon as you were rebutted, you suddenly acted like a hound dog that ''lost the scent'', and you turn up here; on another goofy hunt. Finish what you start, Mr. Butler. Did you get more than you bargained for?
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 07, 2001.
Eugene, you need to put a muzzle on your lips so you can learn how to speak. I think that Roxanna deserves a resonable answer,.. O Wait! There isnt one!.. maybe thats why you always go back to the worn out statment of "the church said it, the church said , whaa whaa whaaa" cry like a baby, and cant except truth!!!There is not one spec of scripture or church history that shows that the disciples preached that giving money will pull someone out of hell.. Excuse me! but who paid for the rich young ruler to get out of hell?.... maybe we need to reconize what Hell is!... hell is not just a burning place with fire,.. its being ruled by doctines that the church as such! inslaves there laity to give money for lost souls, .. false prophets shall arise and teach false teachings just as we are witnessing now!
-- John B (johnb@go.com), February 07, 2001.
John,Nothing pulls somebody out of Hell...NOTHING...EVER... What you are probably referring to is lessening one's time of purification (so they can enter Heaven unblemished) through grace obtained through meditation or sacrifice.
it's not giving money that does it. "Giving money" is giving the Church the tools she needs to do some good in the world (feeding people, giving sanctuary to the persecuted, et cetera). I'm not sure whether or not this method of obtaining an indulgence (which, I assume, is what you're referring to) is 1) still used, and 2) possible on behalf of another person (I think prayer might be the only way to obtain an indulgence for another...let me know if anyone knows differently). A pilgrimage is another way (but, again, simply going to the site is not enough).
Even when it was possible to obtain an indulgence through a donation (which it still may be, I’m not sure), the mere act of pilgrimage, donation, et cetera is not nearly enough. It also involves much prayer, Confession, and genuine contrition. Rest assured, when some shady people were "selling" them (an unofficial practice perpetuated by a few dishonest individuals for a short time in the Church's history) to people dishonest enough to try to "buy" them, skipping the other steps, the unrepentant "buyers" profited nothing from the “sale”, nor does the Church say they did. The Church is very specific on matters like these, and that is where picking up a catechism may do you some good. You will know the truth about what we believe before you (erroneously) slander those beliefs.
aaaaaa aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.
John B, --Take a deep breath, Man /You meant to say ''release souls already saved by the Mercy of Our Lord from a state of Purgatory. That isn't Hell, John; you slipped your own muzzle!
Of course Hell is a one-way trip. A great Italian Catholic poet, Dante-- writes that over the Gate of Hell, the inscription reads:
''Abandon all Hope, Ye Who Enter Here'' /
So, you're not here to instruct anybody in the meanings of Hell. Apparently you have no clue about a Purgatory. Not surprising, since you've been brought up in total ignorance of the teachings of the Holy Apostles as well as ignorant of the missing Holy Books of the Bible. Missing because Protestants KNEW- KNEW one actually supported the Catholic teachings about Purgatory. So, they eliminated this book. The Book, which is still included in the Old Testament of Judaism, is 2nd Machabees. You'll find there that all believers, prior to your protestant ministers-- held as true the existence of Purgatory. MORE than the existence; the perfect JUSTICE Purgatory extracts from all sinners that manage to finally arrive at salvation through Christ's Mercy.
As to the illicit or scandalous selling of indulgences, these did stain the reputation of the Catholic Church, by the evil conduct of some men in it.
But a release from the ''days'' in Purgatory is in fact allowed by the Church for penance and acts of sacrifice; given freely by us in charity, for souls in Purgatory. It is offered with *prayers* (see below) to the Justice of our Almighty Father, through Christ His Son. These poor souls have already been saved from eternal punishment. But they have to be purified of all fault. The temporal punishment due to the sins we committed in life is like the balance we have to pay -- to the perfect satisfaction of an All-Just God. Jesus was described by John Baptist as the Holy One who came baptizing us ''With the Holy Spirit and with FIRE''. An allusion to the fire of Purgatory, after Holy baptism into the Church. (Matt, 3:11)
-------
* The offering of money, or contributions to efforts to liberate the Holy Land (Crusades) became an ocassion of sin to many Catholics in eastern Europe. It was a shameful practice because it left spiritual sacrifices behind. The same thing was being done just a hundred years ago in England and in Civil War United States, when a rich man could pay for some other boy to go in his place when he was conscripted to service. They say ''money talks''. But it doesn't make ethical payments for indulgences immoral, if these are undertaken in a spirit of sacrifice, self-denial and unselfish aid to the poor souls in Purgatory. The Church in turn, uses the revenues for worthy purposes, as in feeding the hungry, charities abroad, and evangelization to the pagan lands.
Those pursuits require a lot of money, ''John B.''-- and our help is asked in all those areas for Jesus' sake. Therefore, we don't have to justify them or apologize to you or anybody.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 07, 2001.
The selling of Indulgences used to be a real sore spot with me. Unbelievable. I only started to understand the practice when I realized that an indulgence is *NOT* the forgiveness of a sin, but assuming a sin had already been forgiven, it is a release from Earthly punishment for the sin. I don't believe that the practice of indulgences in any way changed the sacrament of Penance, just after confession, the sinner would pay his way out rather than (in today's version) saying the rosary, etc.What was it Christ said? (Paraphrased) "What is easier, to say, 'your sins are forgiven' or 'get up and walk'?" This makes me wonder... what is *really* in the best intrests of Christ's church? Having a wealthy man say 50 "our father"s, or to have him pay his way out and be asked to reflect on what he did, and why he did it. What is the value of the man's donation to the community?
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that an indulgence without true repentance would be meaningless for forgiveness of sins, and so anyone trying to use them in this fashion would only be deluding themselves (which they'd find out at Judgement Day). OTOH, as long as the Sacrament of Penance is maintained, the form of Earthly punishment imposed is of little concern to me, and if it could in some way be channeled to help the community, so much the better.
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.camq), February 08, 2001.
Frank:It's not the remission of "earthly" pumnishment due, it is the remission of "temporal" punishment due. It's not about saying a few "Hail Mary's" or buying an indulgence, it's about having a contrite heart. No contrite heart, here on earth, no sin debt paid. You must be properly disposed. Temporal punishment can be served through good works, prayer, fasting, etc. but the balance of temporal punishment owed if not paid in full in this world, will be exacted in Purgatory. St. Augustine told us some of us will pay for it in this world, some of us in the next, and some of us in both.
St. James and Mary, Mother of God, pray for us!
Ed
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 08, 2001.
Eugene, you said -->"total ignorance of the teachings of the Holy Apostles " <---- How Dare you Slander and Blaspheme the Holy Ghost Filled Apostles!!! Do you not think that what they taught was of God? What kind Teaching are you being taught? I figured that you being in your 60's of age would understand that they by the "Acts of the Holy Ghosts" laid the foundation for the 5 fold ministry!! Where is your Acts?
-- John B. (johnb@go.com), February 08, 2001.
John,If I were to say "The woman who talked to Jesus was a prostitute", would you accuse me of saying "Jesus was a prostitute"?
Eugene did not say that the Apostles were ignorant; he said that YOU were ignorant.
>>"since YOU'VE been brought up IN total ignorance of the teachings of the Holy Apostles"<< (my emphasises)
Eugene does not refer to THE "total ignorance of the teachings of the Holy Apostles". I doubt that he would ever describes the Apostles as ignorant.
Please read each other's posts carefully, and don't twist someone's words by taking them out of context.
-- Matthew (mdpope@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.
Thanks, Matt,
To tell the truth, I did overstate the case. John B. isn't in total ignorance of all the apostles preached in the Good News. John B. learned from them (through Scripture) Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God. John learned (from Catholic teaching not rejected) that Our Lord died to save humanity from sin. He learned there is an eternal heaven and an eternal hell, and that unrepentant sin will be punished for eternity.So, he isn't altogether ignorant of the teachings of the Holy Apostles. I apologise for stating it that way. He is ignorant of many KEY points in the Apostle's teaching. Among them is Purgatory, the truth of which is clear in 2nd Machabees. He probably never heard of the Book. He is ignorant of the various teachings of the apostles with relation to Mary, to the Church in the world, and to the significance of the clergy and bishops in the ''long run''. The Bible treats of that point in its rudimentary form and explanation, and he really believes it had to remain in the very same rudimentary form (as in the epistles' descriptions) for all time. So, John is not prepared to believe in a visible Church on earth, entrusted with all of Christ's sacraments (channels of God's grace), and the power to ''bind and loose'' as explained in Matthew 16.
There have been many thousands, maybe millions of good, God-fearing people that were limited to the same belief that John B. is limited to. God being infinitely merciful, doesn't want to condemn them. Since they are a species of innocent victims of the gross error of the ''Reformation'', some of them can't be blamed for their ignorance. But some will be blamed, because-- ''Having eyes, they see not; having ears, they hear not.'' In other words, HERE in this forum, they're being exposed to the full truth. They won't be allowed to claim invincible ignorance on the Last Day. Because hearing the truth (Catholic doctrine) and having the clear opportunity to investigate fully, they will cast it off and call the very Church of the Apostles a liar. They will reject the grace of the Holy Spirit. WHY ? Pride, most of all. Fear of responsibility, and prejudice against ''Rome''.
The devil will have his way with many of them. I hope John B. won't be one /
Mother Mary Immaculate, Pray for us! James, Holy Apostle of Christ, Pray for this forum. Amen!
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 08, 2001.
How can they be an eternal hell? How can ppl burn in hell for eternity?Theres only "one type" of eternal life, and that is "Gods life", (Holy Spirit),.. zoe life,..
if a person burns for eternity, then they will have to have "Eternal Life" !!therefore it would have to be Gods Life and no eternal life (Gods life) will be going to hell!!! only to heaven!!
A person CANT have Eternal Life and go to hell.... Hell had a beggining and Hell will have an end,.. just like the Devil will have an end,... why should a mercyfull God puinsh a person for Eternity?
-- John B. (johnb@go.com), February 08, 2001.
Dear John B.If it weren't because of the fires of hell, eternal punishent; Jesus would not have had to offer His own life for a sinful humanity. If you deny the eternal nature of hell, you trivialize the infinite value of Jesus' sacrifice! You also trivialize the offenses of sinful men against an infinitely Holy God. God doesn't want a single soul to be eternally punished. That soul, through offending Him, has committed an unpardonable sin, deserving very certainly an eternal hell. Precisely WHY Jesus' death upon the cross was the only adequate price of our redemption.
Don't presume to know the reality of an eternity. It isn't something we can conceptualize. If it didn't have a beginning or end-- that is eternal. Hell did have a beginning. It isn't. But it will not be ended ever. The devil, for one, is an angel. He never dies. Therefore, his punishment can never end. If hell has an end somewhere in the future, then the devil must cease to be. Not logical.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 08, 2001.
we all have immortal souls. Existence in Hell is not what is meant by "eternal life"aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.
"A person CANT have Eternal Life and go to hell.... Hell had a beggining and Hell will have an end,.. just like the Devil will have an end,... why should a mercyfull God puinsh a person for Eternity?"Um, John, have you even read the Bible? And this quote, ".. false prophets shall arise and teach false teachings just as we are witnessing now!"...I totally agree with you on that. I've been seeing quite a bit of it on this board lately. And it isn't coming from the Catholics, either.
-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.
Isaiah 66:24 They shall go out and see the corpses of the men who rebelled against me; THEIR WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NOR THEIR FIRE BE EXTINGUISHED; and they shall be abhorrent to all mankindMatthew 25:41 Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels
2Thessalonians1:9 These will pay the penalty of ETERNAL RUIN , separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
Hell is FOREVER.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.
Sin has an end. Suffering has an end. Therefore, there cannot be an eternal hell. There's a hell, fire and brimstone; we know that. But there's no eternal hell. There's only one type of Eternal Life and that belongs to God. If you're to suffer forever, you got Eternal Life. Hell has an end; it may be billions of years, but it'll finally come to an end.
The Bible doesn't say anywhere that they suffered eternally, said, "Forever and forever." Jonah thought he was in the belly of the whale forever too. Forever has a distance or time limit, but eternal is perpetual. It has no beginning or end. It's like a ring, a circle, and as our time moves on, we're only in--revolving around the great motives of God.
There is but one type of Eternal Life, and that comes through God Himself. And God alone is Eternal Life. If you'll just get here in the Lexicon; look up the Greek word "Zoe." "Zoe" is "Eternal Life." Eternal Life is God. And Jesus said, "I give unto them Eternal Life." And if you'll look here at the Lexicon, it said, "Zoe." That's the only Eternal Life there is. No place in the Bible where It ever says there'll be an eternal hell; it said they'll burn "forever and ever."
Now, get the word "forever." And it look the aeon--aeon... Did You notice here in the Bible... How many's ever heard it said, "And aeons and ae..."? How many knows that "aeon" is "a space of time"? Why, sure, anybody knows that; "aeon" is "a space of time." "And they shall burn for aeons," that's spaces of time: cast into the lake of fire and shall burn for aeons. "Aeons" means the "spaces of time." They may burn for a hundred million years in punishment, but finally, they have to come to an end, to be extinct, altogether. See, because everything that is not perfect is the perverted off of the perfect; and it had a beginning, so it must have an end. Bible doesn't teach an eternal hell, it teaches an everlasting hell. That might be for ten thousand million years; I don't know, but it has to cease.
The Bible said hell was created. Then how can it be eternal? There's no eternal hell: hell was created for the devil and his angels; not an eternal hell. Everything begin, ends. Hell may burn for a hundred billion years, but it has to have an end, because everything begins, ends.
But we who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ has Zoe, "God's Own Life" in us, and have Eternal Life, not have life forever and ever; the sinner has life forever and ever, but we have Eternal Life.
-- William (prophet@email.com), February 10, 2001.
William,
I can see readily how pleased you are with this great finding of yours and your teachers. It isn't revealed to us this way by the apostles, nor by Christ. The Catholic Church has clearly taught, The lost soul is no object of pity. It is fixed in eternal selfishness; it regrets its sins merely because they have made it suffer, but not because they were offensive to God; it will never bow its will to say, ''Father, forgive me.'' it will never appeal to the divine mercy for relief. It would gladly be rid of its suffering, but only on condition of retaining its attitude of independence of God. It is the Catholic Church where authority rests to show us the meaning of scripture, and this is the meaning of eternal punishment. All other interpretations, William are useless to Christians, I'm sorry.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 10, 2001.
I am terribly tired of reading your posts (which I believe are cut from other places, for I doubt you are standing in an auditorium), so I'm going to put an end to this here...I have given you very specific scripture. eternal...eternal...eternal... so you reject scriptur
-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 10, 2001.
JmjWilliam,
You must to be putting us on by saying, "Forever has a distance or time limit, but eternal is perpetual. ... Bible doesn't teach an eternal hell, it teaches an everlasting hell. That might be for ten thousand million years; I don't know, but it has to cease."1. If you would check your dictionary, you would find that the word, "forever," means "for a limitless time," which is just the opposite of what you said! You said that it has a limit.
In other words, "forever" means "eternally into the future."2. If you would check your dictionary, you would find that the word, "everlasting," means "lasting or enduring forever ... eternal," which is just the opposite of what you said!
Everlasting = forever = eternal = perpetual. These words are used interchangeably, except that "eternal" can also refer to having no beginning (i.e., the Blessed Trinity).Hell will NEVER cease. Human souls and bodies will have everlasting suffering there, ETERNALLY, perpetually, and forever. (Don't take a gamble on finding out if I'm right or wrong.)
St. James, pray for us. O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to you.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 10, 2001.