Wow - it is SO NICE to be able to access Countryside forum again here on Lusenet. I hope Chuck leaves it up and running.....

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), May 28, 2002

Answers

WOW it sure is nice to be here again! I missed the archives!!

-- cowgirlone in ok (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Cheryl, wonder if we can start a petition? Leave this one going, rename it if we must, have a new moderator and they can continue on the new board and copy the archives for their site? Sounds like a good deal......

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), May 28, 2002.

So Homesteading Today was struck by lightning, eh? Almost makes this old Pagan believe in an "Act of God", hehehehe

-- Sherri C in Central Indiana (CeltiaSkye@xaol.com), May 28, 2002.

We posted a poll on the new site and asked your opinions of what we should do with the old site. The overwhelming majority voted to transfer the archives and then shut down this site. It was not MY decision, but the consensus of the majority of the users of the site. Naturally, not everyone will be happy with this decision, and I'll try to leave this site available for as long as possible. There is still the issue of our agreement to stop using the Countryside name, however, and due to the limitations of LUSENET we cannot simply change the name of the forum and keep the archives intact.

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), May 28, 2002.

Chuck, some of us do not post on the new site, so hence, did not vote. Which begs the question.....if the only ones asked to vote were the ones on the new forum, why should they have a say on what happens to this forum? They are happy over there, fine, but why should they have a say on what happens here? And what exactly are the limitations to this forum, especially since the new forum is up? This forum has been going on for 3 years now and as of the present, there are still forums up and running on Lusenet. Explain please. I am getting exausted with vague responses to our questions, as in why we have not had access to the archives when there are backup cd's out there to protect them.

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), May 28, 2002.

Annie, I agree...I don't understand why this site cannot stay up and running with a new name and moderator!!?? The new forum is fine for those that like it, but lots of us like this setup. And, with webtv, I can't copy the archives. I really enjoy reading them!!

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), May 28, 2002.

Guys even this wonderful old board will become obsolete. You gotta move on. Be glad Chuck is so responsive to what you want/need; presonally, I wouldn't have added running this board to his task.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), May 28, 2002.

hi Marcia, I also use web tv. Did you know you can hook up a printer to it? I've used up at least three ink catriges copying all kinds of stuff.

-- VickiP. (countrymous@webtv.net), May 28, 2002.

Hi VickiP...Yes, I know I could use a printer, but I'm soooo disorganized when it comes to keeping stuff on paper :-)!! I even get lost sometimes in my webtv favorites folders!!! I sure wish this place could stay "available" with this format...I just like it!

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), May 28, 2002.

So, is this the long and short of it?

On Lucenet, a forum name can't be changed after it has been created? The name "Countryside" can't be used because it's copywritten? Or, because you made an agreement to not use it...whatever the case may be.

Keeping this board open is not therefore not an option because that would involve giving up moderator status or being a dual moderator, also going against a previous agreement to not use the name. And you are not willing to do that..?

So, is there any other option besides moving the entire archives? That seems like quite the endeavor! Of course Lucenet is unstable and any site here will probably need to be on a more secure server if no upgrading is done, as you yourself have opted...but for those who prefer this set-up until then. Sidenote, have you considered setting up your site with a text, verbose style, duplicating this format to some extent?...seems like that is a big thing with folks.

I don't see the difference between your taking a poll on what to do with the forum, and this situation...? What am I missing? If keeping the forum open was a possibility then, why not now?

Is it about the "majority" poll? BTW, 57 votes is not the majority of over a thousand posters on your site, to say nothing of the ones who choose not to post there for whatever reasons. It IS the majority of the 104(also nowhere near the majority) who voted...juuuust barely. ;) Should I go vote? lol

Isn't the point to make the information available to as many folks as possible?

Please understand I'm just not understanding why the archives can't be available on both sites. I'm in no way trying to be critical or flame ya.

-- Patty (SycamoreHollow1@aol.com), May 28, 2002.

CS magazine started the site.....CS magazine said quite some time ago they didn't want to continue the forum, and planned to dump it....they said they would leave the foeum up and archives up IF someone wanted to moderate it AND would either move it OR change the name, etc.....GREENSPAN has said time and time again and again that Lusenet just aint gonna be here.....so, Chuck became moderator, with the agreement that he would change the name and MOVE THE SITE..remember all that? So what makes anyone think he can arbitrarily keep the name and stay here? The archives were determined to belong the forum, not the magazine..soooo, wherever the forum goes, the archives go as well....if the forum leaves the site, the archives leave too..same as if CS Magazine had dumped them.all gone...they could have done that if they had wanted to..it WAS their little red wagon after all. As far as the voting went, the majority of people who chose to vote, voted...just as in a general election..those who stayed home and didn't vote, didn't vote...majority ruled of those who chose to vote..it was done fair and square. Anyone who liked Lusenet and chose to stay here, did, and began their own forums...Nobody was forced to leave and go to the new site..there are, to my knowledge, over 1000 folks who have registered at the new site (someone correct me if I am wrong there)..sheer volume alone tells me that they are happy there. There has been no hew and cry to return to Lusenet..I THINK I have counted a total of 5 posts where folks have expressed a preference to return here if it could be done. So, majority being what it is,perhaps you can do what I did and copy the archives while they are available here? I put them onto a floopy disc when I heard that CS was going to close the site.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), May 28, 2002.

Thanks for the clarification, Patty.

The poll is open to all 1000 registered users. That is all that I can do. Many chose not to vote. Those who did carry the decision, just like life. Seems to me that's how it should work....and there isn't even a "butterfly ballot" to contend with! :-)

As for our agreement to change the forum name, that goes back to the agreement that we made with Countryside magazine that we would stop using the name within a reasonable amount of time. That has always meant that we'd have to move the site, since LUSENET won't allow us to change the name of the forum and maintain the archives.

That is the major reason. The other reasons have been discussed at length, such as wanting the ability to do a real search of the archives, etc. Also, from the moderator's point of view, the LUSENET forums are extremely time consuming and difficult to manage, because of all the security holes in the software. We needed something that was more stable and more secure.

As for the look/structure of the new site, I previewed MANY alternatives before deciding to go with this one. I even made a valiant effort to get an updated version of the LUSENET software, without success. I understood from the beginning that folks would want the new site to be as simple, fast, and reliable as possible. I also realized quickly that there was no way to satisfy everyone, no matter what we went with. The software we are now using is the best compromise I could come up with. I even went through the software that we are using and stripped out as much as I could of the color and fancy graphics so it would have a clean look. I understand that it is different from this forum, but did the best I could for you. I continue to look for ways to make it faster and more stable.

The new hosting service that I purchased for us today has the fastest connections available. It was a little more expensive, but I think it will be noticeably faster.

One way that we may make the archives still available in the old format is to simply mirror this site on our own site. It would be read only, but that's kind of what we want.

Leaving the archives available here raises some issues, foremost being we would have to continue to use the Countryside name to do so. Even without that issue, it is impossible to disable new posts completely on this venue. So we will have people posting here and not getting answers, or answering posts with no one there to read them. In this way, the knowledge base could get "diluted" somewhat.

Then there is the issue of trolls. I doubt that will be much of a problem going forward, since trolls usually won't mess with something that doesn't get much traffic, but you never know. I don't want to have to keep an eye on both sites.

Even after this forum gets closed completely, the archives will still be somewhat available on Google, because they have cached pages of the entire thing that are viewable.

One of the things that makes this forum so great is the fact that it is frequented by so many people. The wide range of experience and expertise has great value. I am leery of making any decision that could fragment our family here. If the users of this forum all go their separate ways and start a hundred offshoot forums, the value of all of them is diminished. I am attempting to make decisions regarding the site that will preserve it as intact as possible with regards to its user base. I might be wrong, but I think the most valuable aspect of this forum is not simply the archives, but the knowledge base as represented by all the living, breathing people that come here. That is what I am trying to protect, first and foremost.

I have to say that I resent being charachterized by some as a sort of dicatator on a power trip or something. I am a VOLUNTEER, and have spent considerable time and financial resouces in maintaining this thing, as a service to the forum's users. Admittedly, I've done so for selfish reasons, that I get a lot out of the information and experience represented here. That some folks feel compelled to shoot at those who are trying to serve them is a dark part of human nature that I'll never fully understand. I saw it very plainly in some of the missions that I participated in as an Army Ranger. Go try to protect UNICEF as they distribute food to starving africans and have the africans shoot at you for doing it. Oh well.

Sorry for the slight rant there. Anyway, please keep in mind that I am doing the best that I can, and will attempt to satisfy as many of the forum's participants as possible.

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), May 28, 2002.

Chuck, first....thanks for taking the time to answer. So, what you're saying is that the name could not have simply been changed on this forum to adhere to satisfying CS mag? Lusenet does not have the capabilities to do this?

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), May 28, 2002.

Is there any way that a forum could be started with a name sufficiently different to satisfy the magazine, and then take the backup CD and load the archives onto that forum? As I remember, the magazine didn't say we had to quit Lusenet entirely, just that we drop the Countryside name. If they're OK with the archives being available on Chuck's site, then they should be OK with them being available here under a new name.

-- Sherri C in Central Indiana (CeltiaSkye@xaol.com), May 28, 2002.

Annie,

Yes, that is what I am saying.

Sherri,

I would be more than willing to do this if anyone out there knows how. At this time I do not believe that it is possible, without help from Mr. Greenspun et.al.

-- Chuck (woah@mission4me.com), May 28, 2002.

Annie, to answer your question: The name of a forum CANNOT be changed. Something to do with the name being essential to the link to the page(s).

I don't know the answer to Sherri's idea. It sounds like a good idea, but I'm not computer savvy enough to say it WOULD work, much less to do it.

-- Joy F (CatFlunky@excite.com), May 28, 2002.

Any of you that want to remain with the Lusenet forum style have the choices of 4 other boards beside the Homesteading Today offshoot. We just look at HT as another backup feature to our furums and surf them all.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

I don't think the name can be changed due to how Lusenet is set up. I also don't think it would be feasible to move the archives over to another forum. The way I understand it (and I could be COMPLETELY WRONG!!!) is that each individual post would have to be copied and reposted. I'm not real computer savvy - so I definitely could be wrong on that point.

I don't understand WHY we can't keep these archives open for our use, however. This forum could be locked up - set as a read only if need be - and we could have free access to the archives.

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Thanks all for answering. Now I understand. Since the move, I had the assumption that the name could simply be changed here on this forum. If you all recall, when Ken was first talking about CS mag getting out of it, we had a long thread on what to rename the forum. Hence, I thought it was that simple. Not so, huh? :) Thanks again. We're really not so intolerable once something is explained.

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), May 28, 2002.

Chuck, I'm really not shootin' yer way, ok? I'm a benefit of the doubt kinda gal, and you seem to be trying to answer reasonable questions in a reasonable way. :) In the whole scheme of things, this too shall pass, eh? BTW, have fun with the fence, 15 acres, yikes. I hate pullin' fence myself.

OK, so endulge me...why were the different options even put to a poll? If they weren't really options? I'm not clear on that. Like a temporary thing?

Moving past that, you seem to have no real problem with keeping the archives available here if the name could be changed or they could be uploaded to a different site here. Is that correct?

Hmmmm, so it seems like surely the name could be changed somehow....I think, as has been stated, moving the entire archives post by post is a pretty futile venture. How were you planning on "mirroring" them at the new site?

I just don't think there would be any harm in trying to figure a way for them to be accessable to as many people as possible, even if they remain here as read only. I don't think that is that big a problem, as even if someone got in and posted, it would take some effort and the archives would remain unblemished at the new site. Right?

-- Patty (SycamoreHollow1@aol.com), May 28, 2002.

..also, it occured to me...if the troll issue was a huge deal, why open the forum now?

I'm lost...sorry.

-- Patty (SycamoreHollow!@aol.com), May 28, 2002.

why were the different options even put to a poll? If they weren't really options? I'm not clear on that. Like a temporary thing?

Not sure what you mean here. Of course they were all options. The four options were:

Leave it as is - 17% Password it for the time being - 21% Close it completely - after backing up - 54% Other - 6%

I have not yet been able to complete the backup (I've got an html mirror, but not a delimited text file, which I've had difficulty obtaining) and so I simply passworded the forum until I could get the backup out of the way.

Moving past that, you seem to have no real problem with keeping the archives available here if the name could be changed or they could be uploaded to a different site here. Is that correct?

That is correct.

How were you planning on "mirroring" them at the new site?

What I have planned for the new site is to import them into a database (which is why I need the delimited text file) so I can make them fully searchable, integrated completely with the new site. I'm still having problems getting the LUSENET server to kick out a delimited file as large as ours is.)

Failing that, I plan to simply mirror the site over there, which would make it readable but it would not be possible to post new questions or reply. (similar to the backup CD's that many of you ordered.) The reason for this is because LUSENET uses a proprietary method of storing its data, so I can't set it up on another server without getting their software (which is called POSTGRE SQL and AOLServer if you care to know). I seriously looked into doing that for the new site, and was unable to get any information from the owners of that software, ARSDigita, (one of Mr. Greenspun's former companies).

So, the best I can hope for if its not possible to completely integrate the data is to basically store a "picture" of it on the new site. Sort of like the cached copy that Google has of the forum's archives. You can look at them but not add to them.

I just don't think there would be any harm in trying to figure a way for them to be accessable to as many people as possible, even if they remain here as read only. I don't think that is that big a problem, as even if someone got in and posted, it would take some effort and the archives would remain unblemished at the new site. Right?

I agree, as long as we can honor our commitment to stop using the Countryside name.

..also, it occured to me...if the troll issue was a huge deal, why open the forum now?

Because I didn't want to leave everyone without a place to meet while we work out the difficulty with the new site. (that should be fixed by thursday) And it looks like the trolls have cooled off a bit for the time being. Perhaps being without the forum for a bit was just what was needed to get their attention? I don't know. I try to focus my energy on dealing with the users, not the trolls where possible.

I hope all the technical jargon I just threw at you doesn't sound too scary. But you asked! :-)

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), May 28, 2002.

I am still lost, and I totally appreciate your time and effort in this matter! I'm probably not seeing the obvious!!! Wouldn't be the first time, ;)

This whole internet means of communication can be so biased towards misunderstandings if communication isn't open!

ok, so......you posted,

"Not sure what you mean here. Of course they were all options. The four options were:

Leave it as is - 17% Password it for the time being - 21% Close it completely - after backing up - 54% Other - 6%"

....but if THESE options remain despite forum name(etc.etc.etc.), ie= "leave as is" "close" "other"......

Then what IS the problem, this seems like circular reasoning to me.

-- Patty (SycamoreHollow1@aol.com), May 28, 2002.

Jeeze Lesley ... you must have a lot of storage space for floppies, considering that the archives take up halfe a CD ROM - or approx. 300 floppies. WOW! You also must have a lot of time on your hands - copying to floppies is a SLOW process - I'm impressed!!!

-- wondering (wondering@why.now), May 29, 2002.

Patty,

There was room below the poll to add discussion. In that area I outline and explain the different choices. I guess what I was asking was "what shall we do with the old site for the time being until we can incorporate the archives into the new site".

By the way, when I wrote about the forum being vulnerable to trolls, what I meant was that (since it had been happening recently) if we were getting hundreds of silly or profane messages added to that board, or if someone was perpetrating a denial of service attack on it (that's what "welp" was doing, by posting hundreds of messages) the forum was "endangered" in the following ways:

A. In danger of getting knocked down (we don't know for sure the status of the server that LUSENET is on, but if a DOS attack was severe enough, it could knock it offline.)

B. the archives are, in a sense "diluted" when we get hundreds of meaningless posts like that, and I'd eventually have to go back and delete them to reduce the size of the database and clean it up. I really don't have that kind of time.

C. Confusion. Folks find the forum every day by using a search engine, and we wanted to be sure to point them to the party, and not have them rattling around here when most folks had gone elsewhere.

Maybe "endangered" wasn't the best choice of words. As Phil and others have pointed out, the data isn't in danger of disappearing completely, since many of us have backups of it. I suppose it was more a matter of simply tying up loose ends, and making a clean break.

Because of these things, I set up the poll to get folks feelings about what should be done with this site for the time being. Really, I was surprised that the majority wanted to shut it down completely right away. Of course that will need to happen at some point, anyway, but for the time being I wanted some consensus as to what to do with the old site.

I want to make it very clear that, one way or another, the archives will always be freely available to anyone on the net (except for certified trolls). They may not be in exactly the format that they are in now, but no one is stealing them. On the contrary, I'm doing the best that I can to ensure that they are put into a more stable and useable format. I'm hoping that we'll be successful at it.

-- Chuck (woah@mission4me.com), May 29, 2002.

Chuck, here's something I was wondering last night. I think that you kind of answered it above, but I'm pretty illiterate when it comes to this web-publishing stuff.

I haven't seen the backup CD. When you look at the archives on the CD does it look just like the forum does here or is it in a different format? Is there any way that the information from the CD could be placed on a website somewhere else just as information, not as a forum? That way people could still look for things in the archives, just not post in them anymore. Then if someone wanted to start a Daughter of Countryside Forum here on Lusenet for us Luddites who don't want to switch to Homesteading Today, there could just be a link on one of the pages that says "To see our old archives, click here".

Does that make sense? Is it at all do-able?

-- Sherri C in Central Indiana (CeltiaSkye@xaol.com), May 29, 2002.

Sherri,

That IS what we're talking about doing when we say "mirroring the site". And either way we do it, anyone will be free to link to it.

The only drawback of mirroring the site is that it still won't be searchable in a way that I'd like it to be, and it takes up a HUGE amount of space in that format, which is expensive to store. If we could get the data into a database somewhere it would take up much less space.

-- Chuck (woah@mission4me.com), May 29, 2002.

Glad you're back.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), May 29, 2002.

Wondering..yes, I have a great deal of time on my hands..I sat here in my wheelchair, inserted several floppy discs and copied those threads in the archives of special interest to me..I did not copy the entire archives since I have no need for information about goats or alternative energy, nor the religious threads, or jokes,or politics, etc. etc. etc......I only copied what my personal interests were.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), May 29, 2002.

So, bottom line. IF the name can be changed, then the archives can remain available HERE, as well as elsewhere. The information would then be available to the most people. Also if the name was changed, a new moderator could be in place so Chuck would not have to be responsible for two sites. This would accomodate the most amount of people.

Seems like that could be done. And certainly easier than moving the archives post by post.

Chuck, I'm wondering why getting the name changed is such a problem? Did you email the appropriate folks to inquire? I'm guessing that you must have! It just seems silly to not have the archives available here because of the forum name!

Oh, and "certified trolls", that's a good one! I guess they have night school courses for that! Sorrysorry, I'm just teasin'! ;)

-- Patty (SycamoreHollow1@aol.com), May 29, 2002.

This is copied directly from one of the administration pages:

************************** Things that you can't do (well, not from here) you cannot change the topic name because it is used as a database key in the bboard messages table. you can't delete a topic. That's too great a security risk. For instructions on how to have your entire forum removed, please see the Administrator's FAQ. you have to go to a separate page to change the administration password

****************************

Now I do not know a whole lot, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong!!! But what this tells me is that EVERY message is directly keyed to the name of the forum, so the only way to change the name of the forum and retain the messages is to move them one by one changing the key in the database. Not a task that I would want.

Probably your best bet is to back up the forum, or buy one of the discs that are being offered. You can also read them on the new site when they are put on there. You DO NOT have to register to read on the site. It just shows that a guest is visiting and generally half of the people on there are listed as "guests"...

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), May 29, 2002.

Here is a little more about how each message is keyed. Sorry if it shows up strangely, it is a list in administration and probably will not show up like that here.

message_id (a six digit alphanumeric key) message (the body of the message) posting_date (yyyy-mm-dd format) subject line topic (the name of your forum) message creator (name) message creator (email address) refers_to message_id (if the message refers to/answer another message)

Every message has this 6 digit key, and I cannot even imagine what work it would be to change them all.

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), May 29, 2002.