Best Alternative Toilet System

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Hey all! We are teaching in rural Alaska to save money and get our cob house/homestead going. The catch is we will not have running water next year which means.....no toilet. All of the other teachers are using honeybuckets but I think that is not only unsanitary but dangerous to the environment (they dump them untreated). DH and I want to get an incenerator or composting toilet. Does anyone out there know which brand is the best? We need something large (there are 5 of us). Most larger systems seem to run about $1500 and have a one year warantee...surely it gets better than that?!

-- Najia (najia274@yahoo.com), March 19, 2002

Answers

Yes and no. We use Envirolets, Biolets and SunMars. Each does the job very well and for not as much money as you would expect. However, it is the shipping charges that hurt the most! http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/CompostToilet.html http://www.biolet.com, http://www.sun-mar.com, http://www.envirolet.com

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

as long as you cover "it" with sawdust or something,, them compost it,, its fine and no threat to the enviroment

-- Stan (sopal@net-port.com), March 19, 2002.

We use a couple of thousand pounds of sawdust every couple of months for our six composting toilets.

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

No sawdust up here to cover "it". We are out on the tundra and "it" would freeze solid and never compost. Rather it would just melt into the ground during the spring thaw. Is sawdust a necessary component with composting toilets. Sorry I am showing my ignorance here. I read as much as I could the manufactures' websites but I didnt see anything about sawdust.

-- Najia (najia274@yahoo.com), March 19, 2002.

Hello Najia,

There is nothing unsafe about the "honey bucket". For thousands of years the Chinese have been using humanure as fertilizer for their gardens. Even Scott and Helen Nearing, writers of Living The Good Life re-used their outhouse waste in their blueberry garden. Though Helen insisted that they let it decompose for over a year first.

We use the bucket method ourselves but, we do not us it as a fertilizer. Whomever goes out to the outhouse in the morning will usually take the bucket with them and dump it down into the six foot pit. This is probably the best method of using a bucket.

Instead of spending all your money on a composting toilet that requires installation and constant servicing, (most of them require maintenance of some nature), why don't you just dig an outhouse pit put a building over the top of it. Use it during the warmer months and during winter just use a bucket with a box and a seat over it. Dump the waste in the outhouse and be rid of it. It will certainly save you money that you can use elsewhere.

Sincerely,

Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.



Najia: Since you're going to the "expense" of building a cob house in the tundra the aspect of bringing in sawdust from up-river sawmill operations isn't so out of place, now is it? I assume from your locale you're using fuel oil or propane for heating, so there won't be any ashes from a wood stove to use in the composter. Sawdust is cheaper to use, although it slows decomposition of the solid wastes. My Unca who lives 75Nx105W, has his sawdust brought in over the pack ice.

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

OK, I think I am confusing everyone. :) We are not building a cob house out on the tundra. We are working up here to raise money and build down in Arizona. I cannot dig a hole as the land is frozen solid year round. There is no sawdust as all wood has to be shipped up from the lower 48 (no trees anywhere on the tundra). The honeybuckets up here are just dumped outside of people's houses...they throw it out the front door. A few considerate souls let it freeze then take it to the dump where it sits exposed. I do think its a health risk, its begging for Hepatitis. We just assume eat the cost of the toilet and be eco-kind.

Sorry for the mixup. :)

-- najia (najia274@yahoo.com), March 19, 2002.


If you want to save money and learn about outhouse composting, then I suggest that you do some more research about building your own setup. There were the old dirt toilets that are a type of composting toilet that uses dirt in place of sawdust, try doing a search on these or similar set up.

As human waste contains many pathogenic bacteria and viruses, I suggest that you do compost your waste or make sure that it is properly disposed of.

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), March 19, 2002.


What you really need is a little more information, may I suggest. The Humanure Handbook, by Joseph Jenkins. Find him and the book at, http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/ They even have a question and answer message board. Before I spent $1,500 on a system I guess I would read a book that would tell me how to build my system for $5 or less. I found the book at my local library, and read it free.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), March 19, 2002.

Here are some sources to look at:

This pdf file is suppose to have lots of info, file may be 236 pages, www.climatesolutions.org/staging/pubs/pdfs/compostoilet.pdf Humanure Composting Toilets, http://www.weblife.org/humanure/chapter6.html Composting Toilet Mexico, http://www.planeta.com/planeta/99/0799bano.html

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), March 19, 2002.



Hi Najia,

With regards to your location. Unless you live in Barrow, Prudhoe or Kotzebue, the tundra almost always melts in July. Not for long, but just long enough for the Alaska State Bird to come out and make your life miserable.

Composting toilets freeze up in the winter-time, that is when temps dip to -32 for extended periods of time. If you are concerned about the spread of diseases, like Hep A,B,C and beyond, then what you need is an incinerator.

We build them out of old ice fishing shacks, which smell from seal meat and salmon anyway. Rather than burning them, we re-use them for outhouses. Some are big enough for three-holers. Putting a couple of oil barrels underneath filled with lots of old newspapers & magazines to soak up the liquid, a bit of fuel oil down in the bottom and a match takes care of the problem come Springtime. In my area that's late June when the pack ice disappears. Unca G @ 75Nx105W

-- Unca G (native1908@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.


Unca, We are actually in a village called Napakiak, about 15 miles outside of Bethel. hmmm, i am trying to picture your homemade incinerator toilet. We are inland and do not have any ice fishing shacks around. Do you think this system would work with a covered barrel? The village kids are pretty precosious and I would hate to find one of them literally playing with sh*t. Not to be too graphic but how does one get a barrel of waste to catch fire in June? Do you just keep layering it with papers and magazines? How horrendous is the smell come June (ie: does the barrel need to be FAR from the house?). BTW, where exactly are you at? (too lazy to look up the long/lat. sorry!)

-- Najia (najia274@yahoo.com), March 20, 2002.

A major portion of my 66 years has been spent in this state, much of the time in an area just like yours. Honey buckets in Nome, Kotzebue and Bethel and outhouses in the Kobuk valley were part of the lifestyle we practiced. Your description suggests you are either somewhere north of the Brooks Range, along the Bering Sea Coast or on the YK Delta. One of the reasons you get the high salary is because you have to put up with a lack of modern conveniences. My advice to you would be accept the use of the honey bucket and live with it or go back to Arizona. If any incinerator were economically viable, it would be used. It could be worse, you could be in Kivalina.

-- Mac in AK (nospam@aol.com), March 20, 2002.

lol@Kivalina You know, the crazy thing is those teachers aren't dealing with anything that doesn't happen daily in my village. Those of us out in the delta just shook our heads but admire the school district for at least taking a stand. as for the high salary...Bethel (nearest town) was named the highest cost of living in Alaska. Food here costs 84% higher than Anchorage so we aren't exactly rolling in the big bucks. :)

Again, I am not trying to be a princess about the whole honeybucket situation. I mean, yah, it sucks but I am thinking that a) its a health risk and b) environmentally I am not big on dumping raw sewage or raw sewage combined with pinesol, etc. I am merely trying to find the best option possible. I think the incinerator is a viable option. Its just that most teaching staff turns over here in one to two years. Newtok had them in their village. Its the school district (which provides the housing) who refuses to install any sort of plumbing. Its cheaper for them to recruit new teachers than it is to invest in the ones they have.

-- Najia (najia274@yahoo.com), March 20, 2002.


Read your second post after I sent mine and I am aware of Napakiak. I have spent time there, as well as Napaskiak, Oscarville and most of the villages on the Kuskokwim. In the time frame I spent out there the practice was to put the Unuk in 55 gallon drums and set it out on the ice so the spring breakup would take them out. This was the practice along the Yukon also as well as up in the Arctic. That changed in most villages when big oil came to Alaska and the state had money to waste on sewer and water systems for most of the villages. Sad part is that now that the oil money is running out, the state cannot afford to support those systems, there is no tax base or economy in the villages and most of them will revert to honeybuckets if they havn't already done so.

As to the incinerator method, I used an electric one in Fairbanks that was extemely heavy on the juice and would probably be too costly to use in Napakiak. The gentleman form 75n105w (Canadian Arctic) has the right idea, but the burning smell is terrible and you have to leave a warm dry house to use the outhouse. Can you imagine what those little charges from your classroom would do if they caught you out there. Shades of Kivalina. Your best bet is to live with the honeybucket, lots of pinesol and dump them in drums to burn away from the village. You will likely need fuel oil to do the burning.

-- Mac in Ak (nospam@aol.com), March 20, 2002.



We used to honey bucket everything and just leave it on the pack ice, but Environment Canada got on our case about it. We had little choice-either absorb it or burn it. I chose to burn it. Fuel oil for heating runs about $8/gal and propane is about $6/gal, because we get our deliveries only during the Arctic summer when barges can make their way here. Flying it in is the emergency option and First Air is the only carrier.

75Nx105W = Resolute, Nunavut, CANADA

-- Unca G (native1908@hotmail.com), March 20, 2002.


Napakiak is in a very marshy area of the lower Kuskokwim and is not as frozen as one imagines Alaska to be. Summer there starts in late June and extends to late August. Yes it's frozen, but anyone with access to a backhoe, can dig you a slit trench inside of which you can place 3-mil black visqueen (a liner), backfill with some of the dug out tundra and then place you're outhouses over it.

You cheechakos will remember this year in the wildnerness as one of the best years of your life. Whenever I've had the opportunity to meet teachers, I'm always amazed at how much they don't know about the area in which they live.

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), March 20, 2002.


I know what you are saying about the electricity. Luckily, the district pays for the electricity in our housing.

I really appreicate everyone's input. Thanks so much!

-- Najia (najia274@yahoo.com), March 20, 2002.


Though I am not too knowledgable on this system, would it be possible to build a methane digester to treat the sewage before flinging it out the door? I DO know the bacteria like to be warm, so it would have to be inside the house to be viable. The poop goes in, free natural gas goes out, sludge is collected when gas stops comming out. I am envisioning a batch system made from "Alaskan Daisies" or some such. Come to think of it, a community system like this could actually be useful in reducing dependance on outside fuel. Gotta make due with what you have.

Just something to think about.

-- James in ID (jlfinkbeiner@yahoo.com), March 21, 2002.


Heh, heh... Fascinating.

No crapper, but apparently a reliable connection to the Internet.

Am I missing some aspect of the primitive lifestyle here?

-- Hank in Oklahoma (hbaker@ipa.net), March 21, 2002.


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