Our Schools, bulldoze the Gyms! etc.

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I am going to get in a lot of trouble here but that has never stopped me before so here goes. What is with our schools? Why are we wasting our tax dollars on gymnasiums, showers, and stuff like this? Why on earth would we stand for kids having "lockers" that only one kid can open? Kids have no right to privacy at school, that is our tax dollars at work here, those are OUR lockers! Put locks on them that, yes, the kid can open the locker but so can at least 3 adults(or more) at the school and have locker searches at random, regularly. No metal fronts, clear plastic so you can see in them. Throw out all of the garbage that is included in our school schedules and get back to the three R's, computer sciences, math, history social sciences, geography and real education. If kids want sports, good, have them after school and on weekends at a community center. Once a child starts paying tuition at a college, if folks want a big chunk of that tuition to go to gyms, athletic fields and sports teams, fine, then it is THEIR money, not mine. Take the money saved on all this stuff and put it into better teachers(and pay them what they are worth), better books(then we could teach kids things that are actually current and not 10 or 20 years out of date)and computers, the wave of the future. Where did this stuff creep in to our way of thinking? Every school that is supported by our tax dollars should be focused on one thing--learning. Forget about this garbage of worrying about a dress code. Code, Schmode! Kids can and should all wear a uniform. Simple shirt, skirt or pants with appropriate cold weather clothing where needed. If you must be "politically correct" then let the kids, boys or girls, wear either the pants or the skirt, whatever. Get away from "keeping up with Heather and what she wears" and get back to concentrating on learning. This school business is way outta hand and it is time to do something about it. I am tired of seeing my tax dollars getting p___ed down the drain. Well, I am ready! LOL LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), March 04, 2002

Answers

I agree with most of what you said.... Here is another... Why do Homeschoolers pay public school tax?? My kids dont use the school, the gym, or anyother school property, so why do I have to support an institution I dont believe in???? LOL... Dont be mean, I cant take it right now... LOL...

-- Kristean Thompson (pigalena_babe@yahoo.com), March 04, 2002.

If you really want to be upset about how your tax dollars are being piddled away in education, go to the Alaska Daily News web page, www.adn.com, and in the archives, look up Kivalina school. Last week half the teachers walked off the job and the school had to be closed due to the actions of a few malcontents. Teachers and principal tried disciplining and ended up with human feces smeared on their houses, pets skinned alive and physical harrasment. After reading the news story, go to the forum and see what goes on in many rural communities in Alaska. Many rural communities have no tax base whatsoever and all funding comes from the state.

-- Mac in AK (nospam@aol.com), March 04, 2002.

Hmm, 3 R's Readn, Writn and Rithmatic. My first question would be what started this for you Quacker? Somthing must have sparked you.

While I somewhat agree that sports should not come out of tax payers budget, The cost of putting a gym on a school vs not having it is minimal. The price of a new school is in salary, not construction cost. Plus gyms have other uses in the school as well as rental opertunities for a school.

As for lockers, If you give everyone a key and put plastic fronts on then the contraband that your trying to see will just be moved someplace else. I never used a locker in high school, I carried all my books in my backpack. For those without the heavy duty backpack the lockers are fine, but some sense of security has to be made.

What do you teach, What is really needed for life? Reading, yes, Math, Yes, but what else. Granted knowledge of the past prevents us from repeating ourself, but "Who was the general at bunker hill" seldom comes up in our network design meeting, nore does "who was the 23 president" Benjamin Harrison is the answer BTW. History, do we need it?, geography, for most jobs, know the capitol of some far off land, or heck even the Capitol of Maine is just trivial knowledge.

What is being taught in school is not reading, not history, not social siences but HOW to learn a subject. Kids need to know how to learn, what they need to learn for their vocation(S) and how to find the answers if they dont know. Worthless facts are just that if they have no use within your enviornment.

Dress code, Its fun to say stop worrying about it, but looks is VERY important on a child and how a child feels about their enviornment is going to affect the way they learn.

I agree school are getting out of hand is some issues. zero tolerance, Polictical correctness. A simple innosent act of pulling the little redhead girls hair is now consider sexual miscondut.

Now, what got you going LQ?

-- Gary in Ohio (gws@columbus.rr.com), March 04, 2002.


I agree to a point but they should have gym. If you were to do nothing but study/learn for 8 or so hours you'd be burnt out soon. You learn more by "mixing it up" a bit...taking breaks.

Also, some kids wouldn't get any physical exercise otherwise. Their parents don't make them get outside and they are too young to understand.

-- Mike in Pa (smfine@yahoo.com), March 04, 2002.


Wow somebody ate their Wheaties today! But, you know I think I can agree with most of what LQ said. I think sports and health education is fine from grade school thru middle school, but by the time a kid gets to high school, its time to get serious about their future, be it academic or vocational. Heck, I know so many college kids in their second and third years that still don't have a major. When asked, they all seem to say, "Just haven't made up my mind yet" Christ on a Crutch, boy! You're a grown man now! Get with the program! Vocational education is sorely over look these days. Lets face it, not every kid is going to be a computer programer or a business major. We still need somebody to fix air condition, cars, small engines and work with wood and metal, not to mention all the farm and garden programs. There is nothing wrong with good honest work! Why do people think you have to be behind a dest to be susccessful. Another thought that came to mind about all the social activities at schools. I know that personally almost every hangup that I have can be directly traced back to my school days. Sometimes I still wake up in a cold sweat. Wouldn't go back to those days for all the tea in China!

-- Ken Donnell, Plantersville, TX (palooza98@ev1.net), March 04, 2002.


I don't know if I totally agree about gymnasiums and showers. I think a good Phys Ed. class helps the "Nintendo Generation" see that there's more to life than video games, and school sports were some of the highlights of my school memories. When I was in school you either rented a lock from the school (they had a master key) or you went without. If you thought you were going to be cute and put your own lock on, the principal had a nice set of bolt cutters that were put to good use. This was 14 years ago. I'm not sure where as a society we became so whimpy when it comes to the discipline of our kids. There are simply no consequences for any action (just the opposite of real life). Bring back corporal punishment (it always kept me in line!) or come up with new and creative punishments that are conducive to the educational process. Here's the web site of a guy who advocates the "old school" form of parenting. He doesn't even really say much about corporal punishment (spankings), but it's more about ways to show that the adult is control, not the child. John Rosemond

-- Campfool (campfool@yahoo.com), March 04, 2002.

Hey Little Quacker, did you just get your annual notification of property reassessment like me???? LOL Our assessment value went up by $10,000. We have been puzzling over whatever could have raised us by that much in one year. We figure it must have been that ditch that the county drain commission put through our swamp after we got a ride in the state cop car for trying to stop them. (we were charged over $500 for that ditch we didn't want......go figure)

The question always comes up, when we speak of these things, if we could, should we go back to what was years ago?? I attended one of those old one-room schools with the wood stove and the out houses, and got a really wonderful education, that is until our school was condemned by the state and we were forced to be bused to one of the new modern schools. Most of us sat around for a couple of years getting into trouble waiting for the "city kids" to catch up to us.

I think it will be interesting to see the opinions on this.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 04, 2002.


The way most schools tell it, if it weren't for football and other sports that charge for attendance at games, there wouldn't be any money for swimming, tennis, and other sports that don't. Is this true?

As to lockers, I think kids need them, and with proper locks (not the same old ones every year that everyone knows the combinations to, or that are so old even a kid could listen for the correct clicks).

Especially since schools these days are requiring students to bring in this or that expensive gadget (usually a graphing calculator). My take on it is if is expected to be brought to school, and used at school, then the SCHOOL has the responsibility to provide adequate locker facilities for it (such as during PE, when no one is swimming with their calculators). If it is stolen from the locker, the school should pay for it, period. You shouldn't be told to "make a claim on your own insurance". Another option is for the school to chain or steel wire them to the desks (students would keep theirs at home) for class use only. Don't laugh, I have seen motels where the TV remotes are secured to the nightstand that way.

I also think that the computers should be kept out of the schools (except for ones NOT attached to the net). Why? most kids access all of the bad and dangerous (sexual predator sites) sites from contact with their friends at school. Parents could monitor computer use at home by not letting their kids have passwords, and being in the room while they search for info.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 04, 2002.


Oh my God...You are so old fashioned. Lockers are for the protection of the student's possessions. That is why they are locked. All administrators have keys, whether they are combo locks or other. Three R's, Christ...What about Spanish, Art, Music...ever here that music and sports enhance the learning experience and teach students how to learn??? Heaven help me... Uniforms? So we can give all of our money to JC Penny??? Maybe and old fashioned monopoly on the school uniform business would be good...Jesus help me...clear lockers so tampons and pads can be in clear veiw...Maybe they could all shave their heads and act the same way...wait that is already being done by the moonies. Hey, I have it, check on poultry dot com for their opinion...lighten up LQ

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 04, 2002.

No arguments from the Peoples Republic of Maryland!

IMO, we can thank the religion of secular humanism for our schools. The god of the librarians and teachers (in general), John Dewey, was a signer of the Humanist Manifesto.

How could a child possible be allowed to explore his/her inner self if not allowed to do their own thing and dress their own way?

I've got no problem with PE. I do have problem with "sports". Whether it is the money and time waste in schools that can't seem to pass along the 3R's or in professional sports where people plop down $$$ to watch the modern day version of gladitorial combat.

I think this sort of thing is like preachin to the choir around here. Kind of like saying the gov't is getting too intrusive. Not going to find too many to disagree with you around here.

;-)

-- LBD, Maryland (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), March 04, 2002.



Basic gyms and football fields for phys. ed.? Sure! Huge, fancy gyms that seat the entire town's populace and coiffed football fields to match? That's just going too far! Yes, kids need to be taught physical exercise and sportsmanship, but how can they be taught that nowadays where the majority of the athletic programs are just big popularity contests? Gotta' agree with LQ on this one.

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), March 04, 2002.

I think Little Quacker is Quacked!!

I would never support letting schools or any other institution take away my rights or those of my children! Why would you want to teach children to live like that? They are our future are they not? As for imposing uniforms, do you really want children to grow up thinking that it is ok for them to have their right to choose taken away just because a higher power says so??? I shudder to think of where THAT might lead. I'm not anti-government, but I am protective of my rights.

I encourage my children to live a moral life, abiding by God's word. While I agree that some parents allow their CHILDREN to control THEM and those kids would benefit from a stricter school system, I don't believe that taking away gym, art, music classes, etc. will change anything.

Little Quacker, you really want to do something for the school system?? Put your time and effort where your mouth is and volunteer at a school! Or better yet, run for school board. Nothing is worse than those individuals whose words are their only contributions to life.

-- I think Little Quacker is contradicting himself (none@this.time), March 04, 2002.


Boy could I rant and rave about all the problems with my high school. What a waste of time "physical education" was. I can understand the reasoning behind having kids get some exercise, but most people are really ignorant about what actually gets done in gym class. We were forced to play floor hockey, dodgeball, etc. with they boys who were so violent that I always stood in the back and hoped to not get injured by the ball. It was a complete waste of time and absolutely never did we do anything like aerobics that would encourage a healthy habit of exercise. So much money was spent in our school on new computer labs (so the school would seem more high-tech - but in fact they were always empty because no one was allowed to use them unless a teacher was present as a monitor, and who would want that job) that we had broken desks, terrible old textbooks, and horrendous teachers who were all inexperienced and ineffective. And this was in a rich suburban town, there was no lack of money here. It was just spent all in the wrong places.

-- Christine (Christine_Young@Brown.edu), March 04, 2002.

Sorry, I forgot to say, I am 19 and just graduated from the high school I was describing 2 years ago.

-- Christine (Christine_Young@Brown.edu), March 04, 2002.

If a scool imposes a dress code. It no different than a job that does the same thing. Kids need to learn that there are times that you follow the rules whether you like them or not. There is nothing wrong with telling the boys they can't wear their pants around their knees or that the girls may not go around with their belly buttons bared for all to see.

Uniforms don't have to be the "JC Penny" variety either. Practical jeans and maybe a school t-shirt and sweatshirt would work.

Nobody said anything about taking away gym, art, music, etc.... just not sacrificing the 3rs for the sake of the extras or for the politically correct mulit cultural mumbo jumbo.

-- Skippy (skipit@buzzoff.com), March 04, 2002.



Wow Quacker! You're on it today!

Well, 1.) You say gyms are NOT important but the supporters of the local basketball team think it is very upbuilding in this little town to have something to root for and bring everyone together. 2.) You say computers are important. Some of think they are almost as bad as t.v. (yes, even as I sit here typing away), that they represent the awful, so -called, progress, which we think can be left alone. Even a certain man of science I know of, who uses them in his work won't allow his kids near one or a calculator until they are in their upper teens because it destroys their ability to think for themselves and apply their own logic. 3.) You say to make lockers clear, give all the grownups a key, and do random (unprovoked?) searches. As many of us are teaching our kids they have a legal and God given right to their privacy, to not be subjected illegal searches, to freeedom?!? 4.)Dress codes don't fix any real problems it's the attitude UNDER the clothes that is the fire.

Kristean, hubby keeps asking that too.

Gary, I have to say I disagree with you. School teaches the trivial stuff so you can pass the tests and move on. Most homeshoolers do it because we feel the schools are NOT teaching them to learn and especially not to think for themselves. Just follow the crowd, memorize some facts, regurgitate the facts and get to the next part.

Mike, Some parents don't teach their kids to be honest and trustworthy so the schools have to, and some parents don't treat their kids well so the counselor has to come in, and parents don't feed their kids proper so they have to get extra specially full plates at school, etc…. Again, no time for the real learning, the school is too busy being the parents!

Ken, I am with you! Won't see me at any high school reunion! And honest work is just that.. HONEST!

Dianne, I wish I could have gone to one. If you didn't pull your own weight everyone knew, and if you really needed help the teacher knew. Now you fit the mold or your labeled. I knew how much I didn't have to do or 'learn' to be able to get by. No motivation there.

Julie, Ditto

Skippy, the difference is that kids have to go to school (or homeschool) they have a choice of jobs! And yeah she did say take away the gym.

-- Novina in ND (homespun@stellarnet.com), March 04, 2002.


LQ, did you just get your RE tax bill like we did???? Would explain alot!!!

Kristean, for the same reason WE PAY (no children in school) for those public tax supported schools, why should YOU be exempt???

All non educational extra cirricular (sp?) activities should be COMPLETELY self supporting IMHO, but evidently some folks think sports are more important than learning, our school system not withstanding, I would rather the money be spent on textbooks that are NOT 20 years old.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 04, 2002.


As someone that was raised in England I have to tell you we HAD to wear a school uniform. Girls - grey skirt below the knee, or grey pants, white shirt, tie, black or brown flat shoes, grey sweater. Boys - black pants, white shirt, tie, black jacket, black or brown shoes. Personally I liked the uniform. Everyone looked reasonably smart, no- one was competing with someone else about wearing the latest fashion or name brand. We got to wear what we wanted after school - just as it should be.

Personally there is a lot of things I don't agree with as far as public school goes but then again that's why I homeschool.

My kids go to the YMCA 3 times a week. The older one plays soccer, or some game in the gym and the youngest gets to go on the playground and do music time while I get my 90 minutes of physical exercise. Then sometimes we all go and use the pool.

As a homeschooler I plan to teach my kids what I think they should learn. For us that will include the basics - reading, writing and math but also things like spainish, art, music, geography etc... and other things that my sons may become interested in.

-- anita in NC (anitaholton@mindspring.com), March 04, 2002.


I went to a PTO meeting the other night at our elementary school of 750+ students and there was 6 parents present! We can blame the schools for alot of things but it has to start at home with the parents!

-- Scott in Fl. Panhandle (allbeds@aol.com), March 04, 2002.

Oh Julie, I just love your responses. Very good. LOL And I am very "light" today. Just thought I'd throw in some ideas and see how it goes. Had a disussion last night with some family(half of us are a bit conservative, others are liberal, we have some good sessions. LOL )I do however think our schools are way too liberal and I think with todays technology you could hide the tampons. LOL Seriously though, we need to get kids back to thinking "learn" and not Keeping Up with the Joneses. Sure, I have nothing against teaching other languages, just didn't think of putting that in. Lots of things are needed for survival in todays world. Music is wonderful, it can be pursued outside of school hours and so can the so called "arts". We need to get to learning. As far as being Old Fashioned, that is not all bad! LOL Glad to hear the responses and now I have some ammo for the family tonight. :-) LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), March 04, 2002.

As far as PE, they could either have kids go on a 3 mile walk per day-- you can do that in an hour and NOT work up a sweat (so no need for shower facilities or at least, much less use of them--or require a yearly physical fitness test, like in the military. You pass, you can skip PE, you don't, then it's boot camp PE until you do.

I have attended school both in uniform and in regular clothes, and I vote for uniforms (or the aforementioned jeans and shirt--doesn't have to be overpriced, union-made stuff that shreds in a few washings, either). Why? Because there are tons more interesting things to think about than what to wear--maybe some think of clothes as an expression of oneself, but many of us just think of clothes as something to wear to protect us from the weather. Are they clean? Am I comfortable in them? Do they sorta kinda match? Good enough for me. Also, uniforms make it a little easier for kids to get along in school as there is one less thing to be picked on for.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 05, 2002.


Also, while it may be useful to learn other languages to get along should you go to other countries (as in the trip to Europe after college that used to be a given years ago), I do not believe in HAVING to (as in no second language, no graduation) learn other languages merely in the name of political correctness. Certainly nothing more involved than a business/tourist (or conversational) class lasting about a semester is necessary. 3 years on a language that you probably won't ever have cause to use (and use proficiently at that) is a waste of time to me.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 05, 2002.

Unless you have been there, in the schools I mean, then you need to do some research. I could not imagine teaching a room full of kids who never had the opportunity to participate in some form of athletic release, if you will, during the day. At the middle school years, muscle and bone growth is at the peak, it is neccesarry to have physical exercise throughout the day to stimulate the growth process. As far as the arts, this is how we stimulate the brain. Computers, don't get me started! This is their generation, if we neglect students of the chance to learn and be invlolved in the internet, they will be left behind. My own kids design and build web pages. This is a needed skill for the future. Face it. Online is not so bad, my web page links my students to online study tools directly connected to their text and a state website that allows them to practice for the state tests. ETC. ETC. ETc. And Quacker this is from you who hates censorship... LOL

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 05, 2002.

And...my own kids get home from school at 4. It takes them and me until 6 to feed, not including garden work this spring. 7 supper, baths and bed, when should they pursue other interests if not at school?

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 05, 2002.

Julie, do your kids get home so late because of extracurricular activities, or because you live so far from the school that just the bus trip home on a regular day takes that long?

I only ask because I used to live a 15 minute walk from both my junior high and high school (usually when the after school stuff gets going big time). My parents never had to pick me up for anything unless it was dark. When you have to take the school bus to and from school, it can really add a lot of time to your day.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 05, 2002.


School ends at three thirty - about 15 20 minutes to get home, not including if we have to go to then store or whatever.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 05, 2002.

I have to look again at the schools in our area--they used to be more reasonable when drawing district lines, but you shouldn't be going to a school 6 miles away when there is one 3 miles away (bus or car mandatory either way, due to road conditions), that is just ridiculous.

I am assuming from your posts that you either have taught school or are teaching now--am I correct?

I agree with you to a point about activity, but it doesn't have to be sport related-I think that team sports especially can have an awful effect on any student who is not athletically gifted (it's rotten to be the last person picked on any team, or the least able player). Individual sports (like swimming and tennis) I think are better for many kids because you are competing with yourself first (beating your best time, for example).

I feel that schools should concentrate intead on lifelong fitness activities so that kids don't grow up to be couch potatoes. Walking is an effective, cheap activity, and you can always jazz it up by either getting kids to join a mall-walking program, or having nature hikes or city walking events.

I also think that kids should learn basic drawing if for no other reason than that they learn to be observant to where they can help the police artist come up with an accurate sketch of any criminals they unfortunately run across.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 05, 2002.


Let's see...One division per county. We ARE in the country. I wouln't live where I could walk to school. Yes, I'm in the education biz, but I am a parent first. My kid is a better person because of organized sports. She is drug and smoke free and advocates this. Much smarter choices than I ever made at her age. This is because she has learned to appreciate her body because of softball, crosscountry, etc. Many companies, systems, etc. stress teamwork like Total Quality Managment. With out the experience of working together in sports, some students are never exposed to teamwork. Some one who worries about being picked last must have been. Walking is most of the time out of the question for saftey reasons. Our kids spend 90 minutes a day in each core area, isn't that enough, given the fact that most adults have a hard time sitting still for more than 20 minutes on mind related tasks? Times are changing and you can either buck it, or change with it. As for the girl who hated gym class...somethings take energy...need i say more? And, organized sports carry students to good colleges, some who can not afford college. I suspect anyone who plays sports will practice life long activites. I do.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 05, 2002.

You don't have to be picked last yourself to see it happen in schools every day and see what it does to children, not to mention the parents--good grief, screaming and yelling at coaches and other parents over a mere sport, how sad. If parents cared about academic achievement as much as they did about sports, we'd be far better off as a nation. Being or not being in sports may contribute to being smoke and drug free, but I think parents have by far the greater role in that.

As to working in teams, almost every school these days MAKES children work in class teams to the point that you cannot truly say someone learned something himself. They get plenty of exposure to teamwork, sad to day. What happens is that usually (unless the instructor has carefully assigned certain responsibilties to EACH child that can be traced back to THAT child when not performed and that student graded accordingly, which isn't often the case) one child does all the work and the other children copy it. I see it all too often as a parent.

And as far as teamwork skills getting you a job, well, it does depend a lot on what you're doing for a living, and it won't help you that much getting the job, though it may help afterwards. You still have to be able to stand on your own two feet, and the schools these days are helping children do the exact opposite. Schools teach you to be good employees, not independent entrepreneurs, for example, or even indispensible employees (as in the ones who DON'T lose their jobs in a RIF). The Rich Dad, Poor Dad books by Robert Kiyosaki, are a good explanation of this (though I do not agree with all of his conclusions, by any means).

As to walking, it is one of the best exercises for a lifetime of activity, and can be performed for most of your life, unlike many team sports, where at best you only have a few years of decent playing time, not to mention the possibility of serious injury, which is virtually impossible with walking (unless you count car accidents, but you can walk other places). People can walk other places besides a road--around the homestead, the mall, parks, the track at school if you live near one before or after school, up and down stairs for 15 minutes) even a treadmill if worst comes to worst (bad weather, no good place to walk).

Walking also has the beauty of requiring no specialized equipment, other than shoes, and you don't NEED a playing field, or other people to do it with. I think even a lot of PE instructors overlook the benefits of a brisk walk (3.5 to 4.0 or higher mph), which is sad. There are good books available that explain how a good walk (closer to racewalking rather than a stroll) can be as good as or better than running, for instance. Fitness Walking by Robert Sweetgall is a good book on the subject of walking.

I would also say that the real reason children have trouble paying attention today for long periods of time is due more to the effects of TV, video/computer games, educators (not specifically teachers, more the "educrats") who think every subject in school must be entertaining, and lack of enough physical activity (chores) around the home.

No wonder children can't concentrate when they have learn by drill, or some other method that requires work. Children have come to expect instant gratification, instead of expecting to have to work at something a while, maybe a long while, before becoming proficient at it. Good for the parent who postpones calculator/computer use until the child learns for himself, so that those aids are just that, aids, not substitutes for knowing how.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 05, 2002.


Wow, you must have had a miserable school experience. It is sad to realize that you have not opened your eyes to the enriching environment that students experience in public school today. Our children are rewarded with the wisdom and talents that every teacher possesses and are able to share with the lives that they touch. Some of the greatest coaches have been the guided leaders in the pursuit to learning for many students. There is much research that indicates that organized sports increase learning ability and decrease the use of drugs and alcohol; ie: Idle hands make idle minds. Also, music has been shown to increase the ability to think in mathamatical and logical venues,and music involves the extensive use of patterns and the use of the right and left side of the brain. Art increases the creativity and usage of various avenues of problem solving skills needed for everyday life. Students who learn a second language awaken the part of the brain which allows them to aquire many more languages in addition to their native language. You sound like a home schooler to me. I wonder if you have had the college preparation which allows you to critique the methods of pedagogy. Education presentation of material, but the lighting of a fire in which students desire to learn. You seem to be saying, that maybe if we made school the most undesirable community for our kids they would come to school everday and learn. Some older generations hated our music, our clothes, and our friends, but most of us are doing okay today. Have you looked into communism? PS When you refer to cooperative learning as the only methodolgy used in classrooms toady, you are about 5 years too late. Julie "the liberal" hahahahahahahahaha

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 05, 2002.

wimp email address gt

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 05, 2002.

Wow, I wish my kids went to the school you describe. Even though it isn't awful, I don't think more than 10% of the teachers are anywhere near as inspiring as you make them out to be! Most of them just give basic, dull assignments, look on the internet type things, and compalin a lot about being sooo underpaid!! This is the experience of at leat 95% of the parents I talk to, and I have been a PTO president for years, and very involved in our schools. Most teachers have so much paperwork, and discipline issues, and are just burnt out on teaching. To my children it is more something to be endured than enjoyed... Sad to say...

-- Not saying... (could-be@nyone.net), March 05, 2002.

My school experiences were fine, I simply think that sports are getting a disproportionate amount of the school budget, and that children should not be forced into them, either by their parents, or the school system. Why doesn't Major League Sports pick up the tab for sports activities at the schools?

As to college, it isn't that difficult to get most degrees, including an education degree (as compared to say, nuclear physics). In fact, most community colleges will let you in without a high school diploma, and you can go on and get your four-year degree as long as you can do well enough in class. Homeschoolers for the most part are doing fine in college, as well as or better than their K-12 counterparts.

And, whether or not you have that piece of paper, all it is, is a piece of paper, you are the person who makes the education behind it relevant or not. Education is one of the most "paperbound" fields around, as in the more degrees you have, supposedly the smarter one is considered to be. It is not like that in every field--computer and internet technology for example. Many people don't have degrees (just the ability to do the work, and the desire to keep on learning, whether there is a piece of paper at the end or not) but are quite successful in their chosen field.

With the internet, there is even less of a need for teachers these days--you can go online and learn many (though not all--Band would be a challenge:) subjects. Since you think that computers are so important-- why not do away with public school altogether and just have kids check in by computer each day?. Think of all the money we could save in salaries, physical plants (schools and other buildings), other admin costs (bus drivers, administrators, etc.) and related bennies such as a reduction in air pollution from all those people and students NOT going to school each day.

I have no problems with children learning a language, but I just don't think it necessary to spend years doing so, when it is a fact that many people, unfortunately never get around to seeing all fifty states, much less go out of the country. And if schools went back to requiring Latin, they really would have a headstart on other languages (and studies have shown that it helps with English as well). Business (Spanish, French, or whatever) is plenty useful in most situations.

I do stand by my statement that today, children are expected to be entertained at school, particularly at the K-12 level. Wait 'til they get out in the real world of college and work.

By the way, there are a lot of college-educated types homeschooling these days, many of whom are even teachers. What does that say about the quality of the public schools today? Homeschooling does not necessarily mean narrow-minded, any more than parochial schooling, or Waldorf, or any other method does. You might actually have good public schools in your area, but by and large that does not hold true for the rest of the country.

Parents need to take charge of their own children's (and not worry about others' kids') education. Some will be able to do it through the public schools, others will see the public schools as a lost cause and want to go another route.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 05, 2002.


What an interesting discussion! My two daughters went to public schools, both are hard workers and both did well in their core curriculum. Neither participated in school sponsored sports, but did do huntseat, eventing, dressage, gymnastics, and ballet. Both are now in centers of higher learning and are doing well, one is at college studying to be a nurse and the other, tech school studying automotive mechanics.

The boychild is in the gifted program at public school. He excels in reading, language arts, social studies and science. He hates math, but still makes B's. Do you know that he has told me that one thing he hates is NOT being able to go outside for some period of time? It is very hard on a child to sit inside for 7 to 8 hours a day and not have some physical release. Could that be why so many kids get in trouble at school? We used to have recess twice a day and could run, play, do jumprope, play ball, and then come back in and be ready to study. My child gets one 15 to 20 minute period outside each WEEK. And they wonder why agression is so high in middle school. The boychild plays football in the fall, rides his bike at home, and will begin tennis lessons this spring. But children are bursting with energy and I believe that if the energy is controlled in the direction of a sport, it is better than being allowed to explode! On this subject, I totally disagree. Why not put your child in a chair for 7 hours every day, not allowing any physical exercise of any sort and see what kind of kid you will have. My son cannot talk in line for lunch, cannot talk to any peers during class, cannot talk in halls when changing class, and the thing he most looks forward to? Gym class when he can interact with other boys and play ball and yell and work off a little energy. Community centers in my town don't exist, we do have Parks and Rec but have to use SCHOOL facilities to practice baseball, football, etc. I believe that music, art, and sports are as intergral to education as math, science and english. Life is not made up of the three R's, as so many corporate board executives will tell you. Many learned how to get along, how to interact with their peers on the FOOTBALL, cricket, baseball fields, hockey arenas, and basketball courts, rather than in a classroom. That learning and interaction has gotten many where they are today. I have heard repeatedly that the reason women do not advance as fast as men in the corporate world is that they did not get their lessons on the team. My husband taught me how to play the "good old boys" game and win. He knew from team sports how the corporate game is played. I played his way and I won. But I didn't know how until he taught me. So when my child is ready to go off to the work arena, I don't want him to be left out in the cold. I want him to have a basic understanding of sports. After all, how many times has a guy been asked, "Read any Socrates lately"? More than likely he'll be asked, "how's the Bears doing?" or "What about those Mets"? It will be to his advantage to not only have the ABCs, but the sports dialogue too. Boychild also plays a mean sax, so music discussions will include him too. There can be too much sports, but it is up to the parents and child to decide how much is too much. As far as lockers are concerned, my child has a total of six text books which we weighed - over 35 lbs. of books he was toting from class to class until he was assigned a locker. Yes, his locker is locked and it is for our protection. A stolen book is a book that has to be paid for - by me. I usually don't have an extra $30 to $50 for a stolen book. Bookbags can be stolen too along with band instruments. Lockers are meant to be locked. says so in the name. Clear lockers - whose going to pay for that? My kid is subject to random locker searches the same as other children - he doesn't have a problem with it as he doesn't have any thing to hide. I personally don't have a problem with my public school - and yes, I do participate in school functions, PTO, etc. We have a very good parent volunteer effort here. We have computer labs, and up to date textbooks. But we put our money where our mouths are. We spend, we raise money for computers, we donate to the PTO. I realize not everyone has as good a school, but we work hard to cooperate with teachers and principles and improve our school. My tax dollars go to support a lot of stuff that I don't like, but this is one area that I don't mind supporting. Off the soapbox now... :>)

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), March 05, 2002.


Or, perhaps schools haven't changed so much, perhaps the public has changed. Do we expect more out of schools? Or maybe some of us are getting older and remembering the "good days"? I graduated 27 years ago and from what I see, the kids are dressing much better today than when I went to school. Remember really BIG bell bottom jeans? The kind that were thread bare where you walked on them. Real mini-skirts? I'd almost bet some of you too, wore them! Heck, my dad graduated in the early 40's and they had gymnasiums and organized sports. In Eastern KY. I went to Catholic grade schools and had to wear uniforms, it didn't change peer pressure. Kids are not stupid. They know who the rich kids and poor kids are no matter what they're wearing. Get used to it, you will in the real world. I agree that more emphasis should be on education, but this is not a novel problem we have now. There has always been poor teachers and poor curriculum. As, there has always been excellent teachers and curriculum. We are not a slouch of a country when it comes to new ideas and technology. They've learned it somewhere.

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), March 05, 2002.

I rest my case. You must really have some boring teachers at your school system...GT bye that is all I have to say...Got to go to school.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 06, 2002.

Cindy, one place we lived in was just the opposite--the middle school was a converted elementary school, so all the games were played at the park and rec fields, which was really a pain (transportation wise, because the school wouldn't bus them there) due to games (naturally) beginning around commute time.

I don't have any problems with sports per se, if the CHILD wants to be in them. But should not be an outlet for parents who hope their child is the next sports star who will make tons of money, nor should it be pushed on the child as a cheap way to get into college (as in, "you're not smart enough to get in on an academic scholarship, and I'm too cheap to pay your way, so let's see if we can get you in the back door"). College does not have to be expensive unless 1) you live in the dorms, 2) deliberately go to an out of state college before establishing residency, and 3)want to go to an expensive school to begin with.

Teamwork doesn't have to be learned only through sports, either (there's band, debate, all the other clubs on campus), and as far as learning a sport for business purposes (I assume you mean for face time with the boss), your best bet is really golf (I hold with Mark Twain (I think), who said that "Golf is a good walk spoiled":). Even women are learning to play golf solely for business reasons these days. And again, that's if they want to go into fields where they have to interact closely with people. Not all jobs are like that--many jobs are solitary types, and people could care less about your personal likes and dislikes about sports and such.

I am curious, you say your son is not allowed to talk in the hallways while changing class or in the lunch line? Why, and is the school so uncrowded that they can actually enforce it? I've never heard of a school being so strict, unless it is a military-type school.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 06, 2002.


Well, in my son's case it was basketball that got him a leg up (no pun intended) in the business world. He was interning at a Fortune 100 company last summer and the COO saw him in the hall and approached him asking if he played (son is 6'-4", 230 lbs.). The COO was recruiting for an intra-company team and interns were eligile. This simple thing may or may not have mattered, but the bottom line is that company made him a job offer effective upon his May graduation which will start him at over $50,000 at age 22. Certainly he's a good, personable young man with good grades and a sharp mind but I have to wonder if this would have happened had he been a foot shorter, 100 lbs. lighter and not an athlete. Kind of gives you a new perspective on gymnasiums in schools, doesn't it?

As to homeschoolers paying school tax, they should just as single people and childless couples should. While not a directily quantifiable benefit to them, educating children benefits us all. That's why we all should contribute.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), March 06, 2002.


Actually our school is not overcrowded, but is at maximum capacity. There are hall monitors and teachers who supervise the students as they change classes. Students are to be quiet and orderly in the halls and in line for lunch. They are allowed to talk quietly during lunch, but no horseplay is allowed. During class if they talk, it must be in direct communication with another peer as in a classroom discussion or with the teacher. Outbursts are not tolerated and will earn the child silent lunch, just as teasing other children or other infractions. We don't have a lot of discipline problems in the schools as each parent must sign a notice at the beginning of each school year as to conduct on school grounds and on buses. We know up front what constitutes infractions of the rules. Children are held responsible for their behavior at school and parents are notified promptly if there are infractions. It puts a lot of pressure on the child to be responsible for their behavior. That is why I think sports, gym, PE or whatever you want to call it is good for children, they get an outlet to let off steam in a directed manner.

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), March 06, 2002.

I lied... I have one more thing to say...GT is nuts. Now you are contradictiong yourself.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 06, 2002.

Our local school takes sports so seriously, that it closes the WHOLE school down for certain out of town ball games or track events. (these are High School events). There are around 25 to 30 students in each class, from 1st grade through high school, so it's not like every kid in school is on the team. I've been told that the parents want to attend the games and need to take all of their children with them. Could be, but I think they are going way overboard. Just my opinion. Best wishes!

-- cowgirlone in OK (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), March 06, 2002.

Kids are our future. Education affects all of us, even those of us without kids in school.

I read a report recently, and since it was prepared by a Washington State Community College organization, I'm sure some of you won't believe it. However, to me it seemed intuitively obvious, though I'd never thought about it in the terms the report went into.

According to the report, something like 35,000 people were tracked through a number of years during and after they attended one or two years of community college in Wash.

The increased TAXES these folks paid, attributable to their increased earning power alone, gave the state a return of over 10% on the money spent on the Community Colleges!

So there IS no cost to supporting these schools! They are a positive investment.

I have to assume that a similar picture would emerge if a study were done on K-12.

I personally would welcome higher school taxes, in order to improve our schools, by, by for instance putting a couple of extra aids in each classroom.

By the way, the study didn't even address the savings in welfare costs, prisons, crime, etc.

-- joj (jump@off.c), March 07, 2002.


"I think..." and LQ,

"I think..." Hate to tell you but when you release your child into the care of a government institution, they have no rights to speak of. The minute they enter a campus they lose their Constitutional rights.

LQ- This Post is why I homeschool. Not only have the schools taken away the Constitutional rights of children and their parents, but through taxation there is a whole contingient of people who think they bought the children themselves. Does this sound familiar?

Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This means nothing today. We send our children out and tell them they are free, but what we mean, is that we want them to believe they are free, so that we can control them easier. Yep, you are right! I mean, after all, you paid for them right? Shouldn't money buy the right to control everyone else? Guess what, you just hit on the American way. The government taxes us so that they can control us. The people pay taxes so they can control everybody else. And all the while we romp around in the blood of our forefathers, making the blood they spilled of no consequence.

What's that song I here? Oh yeah.

" Oh I'm proud to be an American so at least I know that my tax dollars make me free, And I'll trample on the graves of the men who died who gave that right to me, And I'll gladly stand up next to you and and deny your right's today, Cause there aint no doubt I have the power. God bless the USA!"

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), March 07, 2002.


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