I HAVE BEEN READING COUNTRYSIDE FOR MANY YEARS, SO MANY INFACT THAT I HAVE FORGOTTEN WHEN I FIRST STARTED READING THIS MAG. AS OF LATELY, MY WIFE AND I HAVE BEEN RUNNING INTO A LONG BATTLE WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES AND WHAT THE READERS OF THE COUNTRYSIDE MAG. LIKE TO CALL THE "HOMESTAEDING LIFESTYLE." I HAVE NEVER READ AN ARTICLE IN COUNTRYSIDE ABOUT FOLKS IN THIS WIDE WONDERFULL WORLD AND THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES, AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANY OF YOU READERS OUT THERE HAVE HAD SUCH TROUBLES. MY FAMILY AND I MOVED TO NORTHERN ARKANSAS IN MAY OF 2001 FROM COLORADO. WE DECIDED TO MOVE TO ARKANSAS BECAUSE WE WERE HAVING TROUBLE IN COLORADO PAYING A MORTGAGE AND TRYING TO MAKE A PROFIT RAISING OUR ANIMALS, AND LIVING THE "HOMESTEADING LIFESTYLE." WE WERE ABLE TO SELL OUT IN COLORADO AND PURCHASE 10 ACRES WITH A BARN AND A HOUSE IN ARKANSAS IN MUCH NEEDED REPAIR WITH CASH, SO THERE IS THE SOLUTION TO OUR MORTAGE PROBLEMS, OR SO WE THOUGHT. WELL, THIS STORY STARTS OUT WITH MY 6 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER. (MY WIFE AND I HAVE 3 VERY LOVELY DAUGHTERS AGES 2, 6, AND 14) IN NOVEMBER OF 2001 SHE PEE'S IN HER PANTS AT SCHOOL. THE TEACHER SENDS HER TO THE SCHOOL COUNSELOR TO GET A CHANGE OF CLOTHES, AND THE COUNSELOR NOTICES THAT SHE HAS A DIRT MARK ON HER. ( PROBABLY GOT IT PLAYING ON THE PLAYGROUND) AND SEES THAT SHE HAS HEAD LICE. BEING FROM COLORADO WE HAD NEVER HAD AN EXPERIENCE WITH HEAD LICE, AND THE SCHOOL SENDS HER HOME NOT TO RETURN UNTIL ALL OF THE LICE AND EGGS ARE GONE.( THIS TOOK MY WIFE 3 DAYS TO DO AS MY DAUGHTER HAS HAIR TO HER WAIST) THE SCHOOL COUNSELOR TALKS TO HER AND ASKS HER IF SHE IS TAKING BATHES, IF THERE IS FOOD IN THE HOUSE, ECT.... MY 6 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER, BEING VERY OUT GOING AND WILLING TO TALK TO ANYONE ALSO TELLS THE COUNSELOR THAT THERE ARE RATS AND SCORPIONS IN THE HOUSE ALONG WITH A PIG AND GOATS. ( THIS IS A KID WHO WILL TELL YOU ANYTHING AND STILL BELIVES IN SANTA CLAUSE, EASTER BUNNY, AND THE TOOTH FAIRY). THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES NEVER BOTHERED TO TALK TO OUR 14 YEAR OLD AT THIS TIME. THE HOUSE WE HAD BOUGHT HAD SET EMPTY FOR 3 YEARS, AND WITHIN 2 WEEKS OF MOVING INTO THE HOME, WE HAD GOTTEN RID OF THE RATS AND THE SCORPIONS. THE GOATS WERE GETTING INTO A ROOM NEXT TO THE HOUSE IN WHICH WE STORED THE GRAIN IN FOR THEM AND THE PIG WAS A GIFT TO HER, A 2 WEEK OLD RUNT THAT ONE OF MY WIFE'S FREINDS HAD GIVEN TO MY DAUGHTER BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO KILL IT ANYWAY. WE KEPT THE PIG IN A LARGE DOG CRATE IN THE HOUSE BECAUSE WE KNEW THE PIG WOULD GET COLD AND DIE OUTSIDE. THE SCHOOL COUNSELOR CALLS THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCAIL SERVICES, AND WE GET A CERTIFIED LETTER IN THE MAIL SAYING A COMPLAINT WAS FILED WITH THEM AND THEY NEED TO INVESTIGATE THE CLAIM. WE CALL THE SOCIAL WORKER LISTED ON THE LETTER THE DAY WE RECEIVED IT, AND SET UP A DAY AND TIME FOR HER TO COME OUT TO THE HOUSE. THE FIRST LADY TO COME TO THE HOUSE WAS NICE. SHE HAD JUST GOTTEN HER JOB WITH SOCIAL SERVICES, AND INFORMED US THAT SHE COULDN'T SEE ANY PROBLEMS, EXCEPT FOR THE PIG. I TOLD HER THE REASON THAT THE PIG WAS IN THE HOME, AND THAT I HAD BUILT A PEN FOR IT WHEN WE HAD GOTTEN IT OUT BY THE BARN. WE MOVED THE PIG OUTSIDE AND WITHIN 2 WEEKS IT HAD DIED. THIS UPSET MY 6 YEAR OLD VERY MUCH, BUT HAVING LIVED HER WHOLE LIFE ON A FARM, SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT SOMETIMES NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, YOU WILL LOOSE ANIMALS. THE NEXT TIME THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCAIL SERVICES CAME OUT TO DO THEIR FOLLOW UP VISIT, OUR CASE HAD BEEN TURNED OVER TO ANOTHER SOCAIL WORKER. THIS IS WHEN WE STARTED HAVING OUR PROBLEMS. THE NEW CASE WORKER STATED THAT THE FLOORS WERE DIRTY, (WE HAD NOT SWEPT THEM YET, AS THE CASE WORKER SHOWED UP UNANOUNCED) AND THAT SHE HAD SEEN A COUPLE OF OUR CATS GET ON THE KITCHEN COUNTERS, AND THAT THE HOUSE IN HER "OPINION" SMELLED LIKE ANIMALS, AND SHE FELT IN HER "OPINION" THAT ALL THE ANIMALS SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE HOME SHE ALSO SAID THAT SHE DIDN'T LIKE THE FACT THE KIDS WERE GETTING BATHS EVERYOTHER DAY. SHE TOLD US SHE WOULD BE OPENING UP A CASE AGAINST US. WE HAVE ONE BULLMASTIFF WHICH STAYS IN THE HOUSE, SHE IS 11 YEARS OLD AND IS A REGISTERED SERVICE DOG. ( NOT EVEN THE COURT CAN REMOVE THIS DOG BECAUSE OF FEDERAL LAW) WE HAVE FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS RAISED AKC BULLMASTIFFS EVERY NOW AND THEN, ( 4 LITTERS OF PUPS TOTAL), AND THIS DOG IS WONDERFULL, A UTTER JOY TO THE KIDS. SHE HAS RANKED #1 IN THE NATION 3 TIMES BY THE AMERICAN BULLMASTIFF ASSOCIATION, AND IS THE FIRST EVER REGISTER OF MERIT BULLMASTIFF IN THE HISTORY OF THE BREED FOR ALL OBEDIENCE TITLED OFFSPRING. 2 OF HER PUPS WHICH I MYSELF TRAINED AND SHOWED WON THE AMERICAN BULLMASTIFF NATIONAL SPECAILTY AND RANKED #1 IN THE NATION ALSO. WE HAVE 5 OF THEM, 4 OF WHICH STAY OUTSIDE IN AN EXCAPE PROOF KENNEL. BEING FROM COLORADO WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD CATS ON THE FARM AND IN THE HOUSE FOR THE FEAR OF GETTING HUNTA VIRUS FROM MICE. WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THE ONLY WAY THE SOCAIL WORKER CAN HAVE THEM REMOVED IS IF THEY ARE NOT BEING TAKEN CARE OF AND THERE ARE FECES ON THE FLOOR. NONE OF WHICH HAS EVER HAPPENED. WE ALSO RAISE REGISTERED 100% FULLBLOOD SOUTH AFRICAN BOER GOATS AND LAMANCHA DAIRY GOATS. WE HAVE REGISTERED PAINT HORSES AND EVEN A FEW CHICKENS AND A LLAMA. WE ALSO HAVE BEE HIVES, WHICH WE KEEP FENCED OFF. AND EVEN GROW OUR OWN VEGIES IN THE GARDEN. WE HEAT THE HOUSE WITH A BOXWOOD STOVE AND OAK WOOD. WE HAVE IN NO WAY EVER ABUSED OR NEGLECTED OUR CHILDREN, MY WIFE AND I HAVE ALWAYS PUT THEIR NEEDS FIRST, AND LOVE THEM WITH ALL OUR HEARTS. THIS SOCAIL WORKERS ASSISTANT HAS A REAL PROBLEM WITH US, WE HAVE HEARD FROM MANY FOLKS AROUND HERE THAT SHE HAS STRONG TIES TO THE K.K.K. THIS IS A PROBLEM AS MY WIFE IS 3/4 NATIVE AMERICAN, AND THE KIDS ARE 1/2 NATIVE AMERICAN BUT LOOK WHITE. WE BELIVE VERY MUCH IN RAISING THEM IN TRADITIONAL NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE, INCLUDING FOR EXAMPLE: CONSERVING WATER, USING WOOD FOR HEAT, RECYCLING TRASH, ECT...( FOR A FAMILY OF 5 WE ONLY GIVE THE TRASH COMPANY 2, 33 GAL. BAGS A MONTH. THIS IS THE STUFF I REFUSE TO BURY AS WE DON'T BELIVE IN DOING THAT.) THESE 2 CASE WORKER SHOW UP ONCE TO TWICE A WEEK, AND EVERYTIME IT IS THE SAME OLD THING. THE HOUSE SMELLS LIKE ANIMALS, THE FLOOR HAS DIRT ON IT. THAT IS IT. EVERYTIME THE CASE WORKERS SHOW UP THEY THREATEN TO OPEN UP A COURT CASE. MY WIFE EVERYTIME ASKS THEM FOR THEIR GUIDE LINES, AND THEY REFUSE TO GIVE THEM TO HER. EVERYTHING IS BASED ON THEIR "OPINION" WELL, I GOT FED UP WITH THEM AFTER 4 TIMES OF THE CASE WORKERS DOING THIS, AND SET UP A VIDIO CAMERA TO FILM EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING ON WHEN THEY SHOW UP. THE LAST TIME THE CASE WORKERS WERE HERE THEY FINALLY GAVE US THEIR CASE PLAN. WE WERE SUPPOST TO HAVE A MEETING AT OUR HOUSE WITH THE KIDS INVOLVED AS WELL AS A LAWYER AND NEIBORS, BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES FAILED TO SHOW UP. THEY HAD SET THE TIME AND PLACE AND DAY. THIS MADE ME VERY UPSET AND I GAVE THE THE RIOT ACT OVER IT AND HOW I FELT IN MY "OPINION" THEY WERE BEING TOTALLY ILLRESPONSIBLE IN THEIR DUTIES, BECAUSE THEY FAILED TO SHOW OR EVEN GIVE US A CALL THAT THEY WERE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE IT. THEY TOLD US THAT THEY WERE CONDUCTING THAT MEETING NOW.( NOW I FEEL AS THOUGH MY CIVIL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED, BECAUSE NONE OF OUR NEIBORS ARE PRESENT, ALONG WITH THE KIDS AND A LAWYER. AND EVERYTHING IS STILL BASED ON THEIR "OPINION".) THE SOCAIL WORKERS GAVE US THE CASE PLAN WHICH STATES ONLY THAT THEY FEEL THE CATS AND DOG SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE HOUSE, THEY WANT THE KIDS TO BE BATHED EVERYDAY INSTEAD OF EVERYOTHER DAY, AND THAT MY WIFE IS NOT TAKING AS GOOD OF CARE OF THE HOUSE AS SHE IS CAPABLE OF DOING, AND THAT WE ARE POOR.(MONEY WISE). I NOW HAVE 3 JOBS, WORKING AT A PLASTICS PLANT IN TOWN, TRAINING DOGS, AND RAISING THE ANIMALS ON THE FARM. MY WIFE WORKS FULL TIME AT A OLD FOLKS HOME IN TOWN. SHE IS A CNA. BY THE TIME SOMEONE REPLIES TO THE BULLITIN, WE WILL HAVE VIDIO TAPED THE NEIBORS STATING TO THE SOCIAL WORKERS, THAT THEY DON'T THINK THE HOUSE SMELLS AND TO THEM THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THE ANIMALS BEING IN THE HOUSE, AND I WILL HAVE GONE OVER THEIR CASE PLAN WITH THEM ABOUT HOW WE FEEL THAT TAKING BATHS EVERYDAY IS NOT REQURIED IN NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE, AND IS A BIG WAIST OF WATER. THEY THINK THAT EVERY CHILD IN THE SCHOOL DISTRICT SHOULD BE TAKING BATHS EVERYDAY, 500 OF THEM. IF THEY ALL DID THAT THE COUNTY WOULD USE UP OVER 3,650,000 GALLONS OF WATER A YEAR, PLUS THE ELECTICITY TO PUMP IT. RIGHT NOW NEW YORK IS TELLING PARENTS TO BATHE THEIR KIDS TWICE A WEEK IN 3 INCHES OF WATER BECAUSE OF THE UPCOMING WATER SHORTAGE THERE. WE FEEL THAT BY TAKING BATHS EVERYDAY IS A BIG WAIST OF WATER, ELECTRICITY, AND PUTS ALOT OF "WEAR AND TEAR" ON THE WELL PUMP AND SEPTIC SYSTEM. ALSO THAT BY THEM STATING THAT MY WIFE NOT TAKING AS GOOD AS CARE AS SHE IS ABLE TO DO OF THE HOUSE IS A SEXIST REMARK. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE HAD SIMILAR EXPERIENCES WITH SOCAIL SERVICES? ANY COMMENTS ON MY STORY? DO ALL "HOMESTEADERS" HOME SCHOOL OR WHAT? ANY REPLIES WOULD BE HELPFULL, TO THE EDITORS OF COUNTRYSIDE - FEEL FREE TO PRINT THIS STORY IN YOUR MAG. AND KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. YOU HAVE A READER FOR LIFE HERE. YOURS TRUELY, WRIGHT FAMILY NOTRHERN ARKANSAS

-- STACY WRIGHT (SENTINELS@CENTURYTEL.NET), January 31, 2002

Answers

Stacy,

Wow. Quite a story.

Just a side note. Typing in ALL CAPS is considered shouting.

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), January 31, 2002.

Chuck after dealing with DSS she just might have been shouting.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), January 31, 2002.

Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. You mentioned a lawyer. If you have not retained one, it may be cheapest in the long run to do so. Ask him about the possibility of going on the attack, sueing the social worker by name and the government agency employing her. Government employees of this ilk are frequently bullies and will back down when they no longer have the upper hand.

-- ak2 (ak2@Yahoo.com), January 31, 2002.

Been there, done that! Thank god we had a nice guy who came out to our place. we were living with our 5 kids in a 6'x18' travel trailer. We had 33 acres, electricity, running water, phone, AC and Heat. I think the thing that saved us was that we were building a house and were able to show him the foundation. There are also a LOT of poor families in the area so he had probably seen worse. Thank God that he didn't show up when we were living in tents!!! In my opinion you should try to get another case worker assigned to the case. Go to this woman's boss and tell her that you feel you have been descriminated against because or your race.(very politically incorrect) You may even threaten to go to the press with this allegation. But one warning,from someone who has heard one too many horror stories, HIDE THE KIDS!!! Move to another state if you have to. Do not trust the CPS they answer to no one and can show up at your house with Cops and you may never see your kids again. Believe me, I feel your pain!!

-- buffy (buffyannjones@hotmail.com), January 31, 2002.

Tread carefully. These can be dangerous people.

ak2 and buffy are dead on the money. Here's a link that might be helpful:

http://christines.donttakeourkids.com/

Goodluck to you.

-- RatherNotSay (RatherNotSay@underthe.circumstances), January 31, 2002.

I know it's too late but I'd like to mention that unless they had a warrant, you did not need to let them into your home or cooperate with their investigation. Many government and law enforcement agencies imply that you have no choice but you do. Once you give consent or act in a way that implies consent, you've given up alot of rights. It's always best to retain all your rights, regardless of what they say or the threats they make.

Now that it's gone this far I don't know what else you could do but go along with what they want until they go away, or get a lawyer. I hope you didn't sign anything. I wouldn't bother trying to argue with them about the baths. Take showers instead to save on the water. I have my kids take a quick shower every night. It's not really a waste. Being a single parent I'm pretty conscience of my kids hygiene because I've heard too many of these horror stories with DSS that start with one phone call because someone sees dirt on your kid. It wouldn't hurt to keep the animals outside either. I grew up on a farm and that was one rule there, no animals at all in the house. In a much colder climate than Arkansas and never lost any animals. You could always go back to your routine once you get these people out of your hair. Unless you can afford a good lawyer, it's probably futile and non-productive to fight them at this point.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), January 31, 2002.

Maybe your wife should contact her local tribal council also. If you feel the authorities are itrangressing on cultural and/or religeous aspects, the local tribal council may be able to lend assistance.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

I can truely say I know how you feel...I will pray for you and your family...It is a sad situation in this country when self respecting, parents cant raise their kids as they see fit..I feel it is no ones, let me repeat that NO ONES place to judge another parents techniques or procedures, NO parent is perfect, NO one can say that they never made a mistake in their childs life.... Social services can and will bully you, but like any bully, a good lawyer makes the difference. Mourn America, parents are no longer in control of their houses...

-- Kristean Thompson (pigalena_babe@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

Get out of Dodge, while you still have your kids! One more reason to homeschool. You can always sell the place at a later date, not worth the worse case scenerio, too great a risk in my book. You only have so many years with your children, let it be with you. There are too many better places that could be safe and secure, learn from your mistakes. Never let anyone (govt.) in without a warrant SIGNED by a JUDGE!!

-- (someone@somewhere.com), February 01, 2002.

Stacy, PLEASE keep us posted. I too feel your pain and am almost in tears for you. I have 5 children and we were visited by CPS also right after we moved to our property. It's a long story, but I'll try to make it short. We lived in a horrible mobile home park, so we decided to move. We found 48 acres of wonderful land for only $15.000, with only $2,000 down and ownwer financing! A dream come true! Only two problems, no momey left to put in well or septic and the power company wanted $12,000(not a typo) to bring electric 3/4 of a mile! Well, we decided to move anyway. We were lucky to have a 21 ft. camper we could use to haul water to, to bath, use toliet in (couldn't get a permit for an outhouse)and do dishes in and to sleep in till mobile home got set up. We had a generator we hooked up to the camper to recharge the batteries every other day. And of course we could use the ref. to keep our food cold. So everything was covered, so we thought. The kids were fed, had a bed to sleep in, could bath,etc... till we got the mobile home set up. Well, we were only in our new place for 2 weeks till we noticed that the neighbors were having a community picnic and the sign said "all are welcome". Well, we thought, what a good way to meet some of our new neighbors! So, we loaded the kids up and went to the picnic. The kids had a great time and we enjoyed talking to our new neighbors. Of course they asked all kinds of questions and we gladly told them how we were living and how we planned on getting things to normal as we had the time and money. Well, one of our so called nice new neighbors got the bright idea that we weren't taking care of our kids like "THEY" thought we should, because the next monday morning who showed up at my door but CPS. He told me that the person that called said we didn't have electric, we didn't feed our kids, we didn't take care of our kids(how did they know we just met them), we had an infant in the house(we didn't, but what did that have to do with anything?), and the list went on and on. So I drug that poor man around and showed him the camper was clean, our mobile home was clean(even though we weren't in it yet), the cupboards were full ,the ref. and freezer was full, we had a bathroom and water, we had a generator for electric, and I even made him ask the kids questions, etc... He said everything looked okay and said that he wouldn't have to come back unless someone called and complained that we didn't have any heat. The first 2 years I worried about this person calling again and causing us trouble. You just don't know the feeling that you get when you have been visited by CPS unless it's happened to you. I felt like my privacy was invaded and that they could come anytime and take my kids. I would definetly check into things if I were you, Stacy. I live in PA and the CPS can not visit a home unless they call first, they couldn't call us as we didn't have a phone. If they do just show up at your door step, you don't have to let them in. I did, because I figured it was better to cooperate, that way I wouldn't have as much trouble. Check into the laws in your state. If I were you I would fight them every step of the way, because it doesn't sound to me like you don't take care of your children. And who has the time to keep a house perfectly clean when you work and homestead! And everyone ones house get a weird odor to it once in awhile, mine does. I don't homeschool, but think it's a great idea, to many people stick there noses into other peoples business when they have no right to. I feel we all have the right to raise our children as we see fit, of course with in reason. And for bathing your kids everyday that's crazy! My sons dr. told us that he should only bath once a week(he has a skin problem)and to wipe off between. How often did our grandparents bath? WE are to quick to forget how our families lived years ago. Check into your states laws and try to get a new case worker. Keep your chin up and keep us posted. Good-luck.

-- Jo in PA (farmerjo02@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

Move and move tonight if at all possible. Get those kids across state line. If you have a tribal affiliation, get those kids to the rez. County SW have no jurisdiction on "federal" reservations.

NOTHING is worth losing your children for. Social workers lie, manipulate and decieve. They are taught this in college. They lie to kid, take them from their families, mess with their minds, THEN send them for a psycological evaluation where a court whore psychologist claims they suffer from "emotional damage" that is blamed on the parents.

Counties get federal money based on how many children they have in foster care, then get cash incentives for how many children they adopt out. The district attorneys and judges play right along with it because it creates a cash flow in rural areas.

-- Just Duckie (Duck@spazmail.com), February 01, 2002.

My first thought was to move, at least by appearances, transfer the kids to a different school just long enough to get the case closed. I also think you should get your tribal rights on record, in Okla. the civil courts drop cases that involve native american children, and turn them over to the tribe,(Some times the tribe can give the children a lawyer) in fact in Okla. there is a declaration in divorces that the children are or are not of Indian descent,

If you haven't already, start a call log in which you should write every contact, every thing said, to whom you were speaking, ask them how to spell their name alot, make a big deal out of the fact that you are documenting EVERYTHING! all with the time, date, every thing you can think of to include. Even the past events to the best of your memory. All in all get agressive and proactive about the whole thing. Take control before they take your children. You may even want to go to the press! What ever you do don't sit and wait for it to just happen or go away,

Contact your breeding associations tell them what is being said about your animals,

become a big squeeky wheel when ever you go to the store or any place, listen for what the people around you think of animals or our american freedoms, and tell part of your story that they will identify with,

contact you government repersentives try to get others to contact them as well, make the race issue very public, and very loud.

I had to go though DHS in Okla. several years ago, my drunk at the time ex-husband beat my oldest with a 1x6 board putting very sever bruses on the then 8yr old, while I was in the hospital after a miscarriage, I had all the requirements done before we even went to court, to be told what to do, to get him back, because I asked the case workers repetedly "What else, will I need?" and I did it before they told me to, all with documentation.

Don't let them have the upper hand anymore, find the laws that allow you to sue caseworkers etc that violate your rights, have the statutes written down and quote them chapter and verse, and my greatest advice, "When dealing with any child welfare agent, Regard them as evil deceivers, the nicer they seem, the more the Hair on your neck should stand up."

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

I had a VERY good site bookmarked www.cpswatch.com; but go ahead, just try to go there now. I only found this site about a month ago so it is not like I have had it bookmarked 'forever'.

Speaking from experience, the less contact you have with them, the better. DON"T fall for their "compliance" or reunification plan, or what ever they choose to call it today. They are setting you up to fail, and usually in a sneaky and underhanded way. The reason why you ask? $$DOLLARS$$ The more children they bring into 'the system', the more revenue they generate for their office.

I don't mean to sound 'down' on them as I am sure that in some cases they are all that stands between children alive or ....let's say...not alive.

It is best to avoid them at all costs, but it looks like that is not possible now. In my opionion, your best bet is to remove your children from their reach, a federal reservation would be the best. Lacking that option however, your best offense is an EXCELLENT defense. First, contact as good an attorny as you can find and afford. Force CPS to reduce ALL requests to writing and to justify each request. They can get very...shall we say stupid, on their requests. Treat them very serious-they don't have a sense of humor! Pray to God this doesn't get to the point of them requesting a court appearance. If so, do not miss any of them, and make sure your attorny is present, and KNOW the need for that court appearance.

Setting up a camcorder is one of the best ideas I know of- good thinking. If legal, tape record any telephone contact with them, or for that matter, any conversation with them [so as to not to 'misunderstand' them ]-it is HIGHLY desireable however to converse strictly by the printed word, even for their 'interviews'[an attempt, usually quite productive for them, to gather evidence that will be twisted around to use in court against you] Make sure you stay on the legal side of this one however.

I just reread this post, I better quit as I don't want to bore/scare you and I certainly am no good at writing a book. It is just that I know firsthand some of the dirty tricks they can and will play on what I percieve as 'easy prey'

Yes, I am bitter, as I said at the start, I know firsthand a few of their tricks. I better leave it a that for now.

I will be glad to talk more on this topic if requested. Due to the nature of this subject, I will monitor this board for a day or two, but my real address & name will remain with me. I hope you understand.

-- Greg (CPSinfo@att.net), February 01, 2002.

Read your post and my heart breaks for your family and what you are going thru. By all means, contact the American Bullmastiff Association, tell them your story and ask for their help. Contact the SPCA, maybe the national headquarters (can do this with your computer on the internet). I know there have been many studies about how beneficial it is for children to have pets. I also know there are a lot of adults who never had a pet who feel they are a health threat and don't belong in any house, ever. SPCA may well be able to point you to some serious studies you can use in your fight.

Are your cats fixed? If not, and you have a tom cat, they spray and the smell is almost impossible to get rid of. That might be what they are objecting to. Let the cats come and go outside - they will keep the rodent population down.

I hope you have a plan for getting the kids out of there, maybe to go stay with your wife's folks for a while. Might consider going to the local newspaper with your story and see if they will run an article or two.

Get a lawyer and sue the fire out of the people! So who has ever had a perfectly clean floor with 3 kids and living on a farm. Who has had a cat that NEVER jumps on counters? These people have limits and it doesn't sound to me like your children are in any danger. Do NOT allow any of these people to talk to your kids alone! Inisit that your lawyer or a neighbor or someone else you can trust is also present. These people are champs at leading children into saying something that can be twisted and used against you. Caution your children NOT to talk with these people if they come to their schools, without you or someone you choose also being present. Get a phone so the kids can call you for help if they are being pressured to talk with them at school. Kids don't have to be rude or ugly, just calmly insist that they want at least one parent present before talking to them since the kids feel that these people are trying to break up the family. I'm not qualified to give legal advice, mind you, so the very FIRST thing you should do is get a lawyer who can tell you your rights and keep Social Services from running right over you. Do that _today_!

Best of luck to you. Will keep your family in my prayers.

-- Carol - in Virginia (carollm@rockbridge.net), February 01, 2002.

Well we really do live in a socialist state don't we? Everyone is suppose to be the same and live like big brother tells us or there will be hell to pay.

-- fred (fred@mddc.com), February 01, 2002.

My first instinct is to tell you to get those children to a reservation as soon as possible. I hope you have family living on one now so they can help you. I'm afraid those people will take the children away from you if you don't wait.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.

Sounds a little like a younger, city raised caseworker, dealing with country living for the first time. It has only been for about the past 20 years that people have gotten an obsession with bathing daily. My mom, 82, talks about the weekly bath, which is when you got your hair washed too. Unless we have been doing hard physical labor, or gotten particularly dirty with some job, we don't bathe daily.

In farm life, you do sometimes have to keep animals inside. Like chicks or orphaned animals. And sometimes you have to make do. Our septic is way undersized and needs to be pumped yearly, so at a certain point, we need to bucket flush.

I get the feeling that the majority of these caseworkers have no experience with "real" life. Just, city life.

We did foster care for a while. We had a 3 1/2 month old in a body cast in our care. For some reason a different worker brought her home from her visit. We had moved only a couple weeks earlier, and my back room (13 x 30) was the holding area for lots of boxes and stuff while we got settled in. This person, who never met me before wrote a note to the department head about our filthy home, etc. And then she quit the department the next day, so we figured she wanted to get her supervisor in trouble for the people she had approved. That made me paranoid about the whole thing. When the baby got assigned a new caseworker, a man, I was told that he was quite picky, and I panicked. (We live on 15 acres, and at the time were heating with wood). Well, turned out he himself had been raised on a farm, and they heated with wood, and I never, ever had any trouble from him.

But now we are adoptive parents, and I worry about those things. I think if ever any of the infant's old caseworkers come by (oh, and she went home to her mom after 15 months with us) I would say it wasn't convenient to visit with them right then, and not let them in the house.

-- Joyce Dingman (joycedingman@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

When we had first talked about homeschooling my husband wasn't sure. What changed his mind is when our little bitty school started having a school counselor started coming to each classroom once week (even K). He got scared. ANYONE who we have met would tell you we are good parents with happy,well rounded and well mannered children. But we expect the kids to do chores, we do not bathe daily (although we are not 'dirty' people), we do not believe in an allowance, and do beleive in a swap on the keister occasionally when they have really crossed the line. (with all that said I can practically feel the S.W.A.T. team crashing through my windows as we speak) Anyway he figured the first time the kids said anything we'd get a 'visit'. He stoppped arguing against homeschooling and know can't think of why he ever did.

But everybody, even fancy city folk, have cats and dogs in the house! And NObody mops the floor every single day! Such trivialities scare the crud outta me!!! I guess I won't tell any of my neighbors that we are phasing out running water and electricity over the next year in favor of a hand pump and kerosene lights!

I agree about moving, run far and fast! BEFORE they have made any legal move against you, otherwise they issue warrants for evading,or kidnapping your own kids or something, then you will always be running. Go while you have the chance...GOOD LUCK.

-- me (sisterwives@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

Doing foster care in two states, we have had too deal with a variety of CPS workers. Some are very good at what they do and some aren't. It sounds like you got the dregs at the bottom of the barrel (the first one you had probably quit, they have a very high turnover rate)! Definitly, get a lawyer ASAP. Someone mentioned a tribal lawyer. That sounds like a great idea! You could also go to the library and do some research on what exactly your state's laws are regarding what their CPS workers can do (the librarian can help you find this info). I've never had a caseworker tell me that a child had to be bathed every day. A lot of kids have skin conditions that bathing daily would aggravate esp in cold weather. Sounds like they are looking for anything to try and aggravate you! Please, always be civil with them no matter how stupid they are. If you get agitated and start yelling for example, they can say you can't control your temper and that will give them more ammunition. And no one can say that being poor is a reason to take your kids away! Take all your paperwork to a lawyer as soon as possible!! Good luck!

-- Cindy in NY (cjpopeck@worldnet.att.net), February 01, 2002.

Ok, am I the only one who sees something wrong here??? If your children come first as you say, then why not give them the stupid baths every day, clean the house, spray some air spray around and get rid of the dogs and cats. At least long enough to get social services out of your life. Then move! Why choose losing your kids over your principals of lifestyles. Once you lose them, it is harder to get them back than you think and you will have social services in your lives forever! As parents you have to do whatever you have to do for your kids...even if it means a lifestyle change.

-- Minnie (mmstel@homenet.com), February 01, 2002.

I hope I do not offend anyone and not really knowing the whole situation but here I go:

I know people are poor and I respect that and understand it been there. It doesn't cost anything to keep a clean house. It is called pride in my eyes. If you don't want to waste water then put rain barrels outside and have the kids wash down at night or in the morning between showers or baths. I live on a farm and my house is clean, I have 2 dogs and 3 cats which are inside/outside animals my house dosn't smell. The kitty litter is is the garage and cleaned everyday. My cats do not go on the counters or tables. Pigs can be trained like dogs to go potty outside or in a kitty litter but that is a pot belly pig which I don't think get big. But raising farm animals is to be done outside in a barn not in your house. i live in WV which is alot colder then Ark. and know people who keep pigs year round and outside and they do not die, your pig probably died from something else other then weather. And if your that poor your family's need come first get rid of anything thatg is not edible or giving you something in return. Do you really need 5 dogs? They eat alot and take up alot of room. Do you drink the goat milk? If not why do you have goats? Don't use your wife's native background as an excuse I am sure there are other people with native american background who do not have DSS on there backs. We all have the right to live the way we want but your kids deserve to have clean living conditions also. If things are that bad get out of the south.

-- sonneyacres (jtgt12@ntelos.net), February 01, 2002.

Stacy, Someone once said "If we don't know what our rights are then we don't have any". Thanks to lawyers we have 35 million laws on the books to enforce the 10 Commandments. But, like it or not, unfortunately, we all must deal with the legal system in some way at some time. During my 60 years on this planet I have been run over by the legal system several times. Several years ago while looking for a home-based business I ran across something that puts people like me and you in touch with the best law firms in our state without having to pay $100+ an hour fees. Since then I have made it my mission to help people such as yourself deal with legal situations. For less than $30 you can have the best law firm in Arkansas work on your situation ASAP. You can keep the service for as long as you like. You can check it out here. www.prepaidlegal.com/info/billvaughn I appologize for getting up on my soap box but I am deeply committed to helping folks deal with a necessary evil.

Good Luck and God Bless You

Bill SE West Virginia

-- Bill Vaughn (ewvaughn@mtneer.net), February 01, 2002.

Stacy, we once were visited by SS, because they had recieved an anonymous tip that our 6 yr old was not in school. (Not hard to guess who was the nosey neighbor running her mouth!) N.C. law states that a child must be schooled from age 7 to age 16. The Social Services "lady" didnt know the law, of course. At the time of her visit, I was almost due to have our second child. I was able to hide my pregnancy pretty well. Sure didnt want her to know that we had another one on the way!

Guess what? The "concerned" big mouth neighbor went and blabbed to the SS that we had a new baby, and that we had a home birth! Furthermore, she blabbed that we were eating out of dumpsters! At that time, the DH was out of work, and we had to scrounge around for food. But we always had very good food, in plentiful supply. There is no law forbidding using food that others have thrown away, and neither is there a law against having babies at home!

But the "lady insisted on coming out for a visit. Hubby met her on the front porch of the trailer and quoted the portion of the Bill of Rights to her that says we shall be secure in our homes. He told her to go learn the law and to get a warrant before she comes back. And we moved over state lines before she got back.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

Stacy, Contact BIA and let them get in the picture they have a lot more pull then any lawyer you could hire, my husband is 1/2 Native American he has some contacts. I can't understand what people hope to gain by making life miserable for others when their isn't really a reason or at least a valid reason. Animals in the house are just a way of life for homesteaders. I live in Ozark co. MO and if you decide to home school I am a teacher and could help you get started. Sally

-- (mallardhen67@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.

Concerning your statement, EVERYTIME THE CASE WORKERS SHOW UP THEY THREATEN TO OPEN UP A COURT CASE. MY WIFE EVERYTIME ASKS THEM FOR THEIR GUIDE LINES, AND THEY REFUSE TO GIVE THEM TO HER., reporters and concerned individual use FOIA letters and Open Records request letters to be invalueable, when you need to obtain information. Virtually anyone can qualify as a reporter, you are one, in my opinion, due to the requests for more information about your situation that have been posted on this forum. You don't have to be a 20 year verteran employee of the Washington Post to be a reporter.

Here is none source for FOIA letters forms. By submitting a FOIA Request Letter Form, http://www.rcfp.org/foi_lett.html, you can request all sorts of information that applies to your situation. I suggest that you send separate letters, such as a general letter requesting all information held on, another letter requesting the rules/regulations, another letter requesting information generated by the case worker, another requesting contacts made by the case workers in regard to your case, etc.

If you decide to use the form provided on this site, then I suggest that under Part 4, you: Request a fee waiver due to the fact that the information requested is in the public interest, because it will contribute significantly to public understanding of government operations and activities.

Set the fee limit at $10.00, as this will allow for the expedited processing of your request. Most federal agencies will provide up to a hundred or so pages, without charge.

It is also a good idea to include a Open Records Request Letter, as defined by your state laws. This way you are addressing both state and federal laws and will assure a better chance that you will get the information you are requesting

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

Sometimes teachers seem to overstep and cause a chain reaction that can't be stopped. They can do more harm than good. A friend of mine was unemployed, living on a large monthly income from an inheritance. His wife had a decent job at the local bank. His small children, (1st and 2nd graders) were given the third degree at school about their father's lack of employment. Apparently they were TOO well dressed. The teacher's conclusion was "He must be selling drugs". This led to the whole small town believing the rumor and the local police department checking him out. It was very upsetting for the whole family, especially the small children.

-- cowgirlone in OK (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.

Yes Minnie I do see something wrong here!

I see that it is wrong to be forced a way you don't believe in just to suit someone elses ideal!!!!!

Many of us live on one income or part time because we believe in the simpler life, we have animals, we conserve. This family was not accused of hurting their kids they were acused of having pets,and not having a fancy enough job. Their family threatened to make them comply with society's latest ideas of how everyone should live.

Yes, that is very wrong indeed! As wrong as persecuting them for belonging to the wrong church! Especially at now when people are more loudly proclaiming our great and FREE America. HAH!

-- Novina in ND (homespun@stellarnet.com), February 01, 2002.

Hi Stacy, I have been on both sides of the fence on this one. I went to school to be a social worker, we were taught to be on the side of the children, don't beleive what the parents say, remove them if neccesary and figure it out later if they should be returned to their parents. I never worked as a social worker, I didnt like their gastapo (sp?) tactics. When I was married, my husband was accused of child abuse (yes, he was guilty)I removed myself and my child from the situation but they still wanted to come after me (no, they weren't accusing me of child abuse). The reason was, I was still married to him and at that time and I wouldn't see a divorce laywer. My advise, get the children onto a reservation with family or friends. I wouldn't attempt to homeschool them at this time, it would raise to many questions for them to come snooping. Tell the children to talk to no one, social workers, school counslers, school nurse, principal, etc... about anything that happens at home. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Sherry

-- Sherry (tlnifty@ecenet.com), February 01, 2002.

Appauling! Made me think about one reason the earth's people have had such a time with Polio in the recent past. Folks in the 50's started washing and scrubbing the heck out of everything and everyone. They were led to believe (by Madison Ave.) that getting rid of germs etc. was in everyone's interest towards defeating illness. Guess what..they took away childrens' source of building immunities. I think I read that farm (country) kids and city street children did not get Polio like nice "clean" suburban kids did. It is supposed that those people who DIDN'T scrub everything down with all those new fangled detergents were growing families who were building resistance to disease. I don't mean to say we shouldn't keep clean, I am saying we need to keep it reasonable. I'm only 53 and remember that people didn't bath everyday when I was growing up. Remember the old excuse about not accepting a date? Sorry, I have to wash my hair. That was a real reason! Washing was an event, not a daily habit. I am sure that advertising has manipulated our population into buying and using and buying and using. I remember toothpaste commercials that loaded the toothbrush with 2 layers of paste. Gag. Was that supposed to get us to use it up faster so we could buy more sooner? Sure hope I'm not that stupid. Sorry for the long winded post, I just get my dander up when the powers-that-be try to control. Human's...poo...give me dogs, cats and horses anytime..they aren't so fussy.

-- Susan in Northern Michigan (cobwoman@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

Susan, this is way off the subject. I contracted polio in 1946,living on a farm with no plumbing. There was plenty,plenty poo around the manure pile and chicken coop. We were not bathed every day! Good Lord!

(I think I'll not visit this thread for awhile!)

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.

Sounds like Arkansas still has some social worker nazis leftover from the Bill and Hillary governor's reign.

-- Steve in So. WI (Alpine1@Prodigy.net), February 01, 2002.

We've been in a similar situation. However we are well off financially, nice home, neither of us have ever even had a traffic ticket, we are well known and respected. I was a stay at home mom. Kids had a good upbringing and were clean, supervised, and well cared for at all times. None of which matters once the Dept of Soc. Services sticks their nose in your life. In our case, our youngest child (a teenager) developed a rebellious streak. Said child had caused us grief for several years. We had worked with teachers, school counselors and other administration. Sought help and counseling through our church. Sent her to private school. Worked with the police dept., juvenile dept. and court system. This was all initiated by us in an attempt to help this child. Older siblings, other family members, famiy friends etc. all tried to help, to no avail. The child simply enjoyed creating havoc and being the center of attention. The last tactic was to fake an attempted suicide. And yes, Mental Health counselors, several psychologists, 2 psychiatrists, and the medical doctors all agreed it was faked.

It was at this point that Soc. Services became involved. From then on, the child didn't have to make up lies because the case workers took over the job. To put it bluntly, they put us through hell for a year. We had to pay outrageous expenses to Soc. Services, pay for foster care, counseling, attend family counseling (THEIR choice of counselors, who did nothing but talk about themselves), hire attorneys to defend ourselves, spent most of our time in court, and eventually had to get a restraining order against our own child, who by this time realized things had blown out of proportion and wanted to come back home. One of the supervisors at Soc. Services, after I denied that any of the accusations against us had any truth in them, flat out told me that they KNEW that, that they made up the charges, that they told our child what to say in court, and stated "this is how we work". She then told us that this is how they get their funding. No children in "need"......no need for their agency. Plain and simple, it's job security. We learned early on to carry a tape recorder and have witnesses with us during all contacts with Soc. Services.

We were fortunate that we live in a smaller town and personally know all the judges. We also had a very long, documented record that our child was a troubled, out of control teen, and had many, many people willing to testify for us. Teachers, neighbors, our other children, police, even the counselors from Dept. of Mental Health testified that our child was a compulsive liar, never in any danger, and simply wanted any and all controls removed. The judge read our child the riot act, threatened to send the child to juvenile hall till the age of 18, and then proceeded to raise hell with the caseworker for their lies and for what they had put us through. The case was dismissed. We were VERY, VERY lucky.

Considering the ages of your children, I would offer the advice some others have given:

1) Do what you have to to appease them. Immediately, start bathing the kids daily, clean up the house and get the animals out, what ever it takes to make Soc. Services think you're giving in.

2) DO NOT sign anything! Keep records of everything you are told in person or over the phone, names, dates, times, conversations. If not illegal in your state, use a tape recorder. This doesn't have to be secret, just slap one out on the table whenever you meet with them, they are much more careful about making threats.

3)Do not let them have your kids even "temporarily", without a signed court order. These people lie, you can safely assume everything they tell you is false or twisted.

4) Seek help from legal aid, Bureau of Indian Affairs, etc. Apparently you are already getting statements from neighbors, etc. in your defense.

5) GET YOUR CHILDREN OUT OF THERE! If possible, pick up and leave immediately, you can always tend to the place later. Or have your wife take the children out of state while you stay. If necessary, forget everything and get your family out of danger and start over elsewhere. You will not lose as much financially by leaving it all as by trying to fight Soc. Services. I can almost guarantee you that you will lose. They have unlimited funds (taxpayer $) to go after you. This is one time to forget about principles...... this is not the time to fight for your ideals. I tell you, nothing is worth losing your kids to them.

And for the rest of you, don't think it can't happen to you. These agencies are out of control. Those of you who don't have kids at home to worry about anymore, use some of your spare time and resources to help make some changes.

-- BeenThere (NoName@NoWhere.com), February 01, 2002.

I will point out one more thing. SS favorite tactic is to not contact you, then they grab your children from the classrooms on Friday afternoon and put them in foster care. Many parents don't know find out anything until they call the school when the kids fdon't get off the bus. Around 4:45 in the afternoon that Friday, they will show up at your home with a cop and take the kids that are there. As they do this on Fridays, they have all weekend to work over your kids while you cannot contact ANYONE over the weekend.

Stacy, let us know when you get over the state line. Go to the library and log in here.

-- Just Duckie (Duck@spazmail.com), February 01, 2002.

Do you know what is so wrong with the children's services in this country? That I could make an anonymous call to them about one of your children and make up anything, and they would take it as gospel and the next thing you know, these people are on your doorstep, ready to take your children.

I know this is true as one of the child welfare workers here told me a few years ago, that anytime they get a call, they are required by law to check into it. Doesn't matter that the caller won't give their name, or address. They have to come out to the house and make sure "all is well". And if they get repeated calls by different individuals (like if I got some of my friends to call too), then they have to hold hearings in court to determine whether or not the charges are true. In the meantime, they can interview your boss, your neighbors, your relatives, and anyone you deal with socially or work related to find out if you take care of your children. They have pretty much free rein to make your life miserable and by the time they are through, you are going to be a nervous wreck. And do you know that the SS people do not have to provide the person's name which started the whole thing? They can keep that "confidential". Boy, what a way to get back at someone who pissed you off - just call Social Services and let them do the dirty work!

HIRE AN ATTORNEY (and yes, I am shouting). And tape everything. In the meantime, do not sign anything and do not agree to anything. Just put the dogs outside in the barn along with the cats and any other animals. Clean up the house. Document every conversation and every phone call. Make extensive notes right in front them as they are speaking. Let them know you are taking notes (you can even tell them that it is upon advise from your attorney).

However, If I were you, I would just pick up and move. It will be far easier than dealing with the kind of people you're dealing with. When my daughter told me she was going to college, I told her I would help her become anything except a social services worker. Does that tell you what I think of the whole profession?

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), February 01, 2002.

When the obvious parental rights and child rights issues are handled, as a parent I would want to know why my six year old little girl was wetting herself in school. There are many reasons; medical, social, behavioral etc., for this to happen, but it is troubling to me. Was she denyed access to the facilities?? Is this a common thing?

Ardie, I think that we are dead in the water on the polio issue. We are the last little bit of people who remember how it really was. Too bad cause ignorance and lack of understanding could bring the whole sorry mess back. Hope I don't live to see it!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

homeschool. yahoo: homeschool legal defense association

-- steve (stevetamara@mindspring.com), February 01, 2002.

About the Large type...perhaps this person finds it easier to type in capitals all the time. Once worked with a nurse in an agency that had had a stroke and unable to use right hand. She typed everything in capital letters for the convience of making out her reports. What's the difference. (does sort of hurt your eye though) So on with the topic at hand. I guess I would have wanted to know why my little girl "wet" herself during school also. Just a sometimes accident or a physical problem here. Then I would make sure her teacher had a couple changes of clothing just in case she needed to change during school hours. I know a family that has a rescue kennel for animals and has a kennel but also has 13 dogs of their own in their house. They are wonderful parents..have 2 young girls...well cared for..both the animals and the children. I wouldn't care to have that many animals in my house but many, many times I have had baby goats and chickens in a play pen in my livingroom too. I clean my house but I'm not a nut about it either. Well...these people were also visited by children's services because their youngest said her chest hurt one day and school and said he Dad did it. Well...right there the ball was rolling. I understand completely that it is the school or teachers responsiblity to care for these children's welfare and a teacher or a nurse can lose their license for not reporting any concerns. Nothing found with this family of course. But a lot of paperwork and worry for them. Just a little girl making up a story to tell at school. I would pull my place together really fast and then let social services see what improvements you have made. We homestead also...things can get out of hand in the house and outside mighty fast sometimes and you need to keep on top of things. Then I would consider moving. But if paperwork has been done on you I would think it would follow you to any state. Get things straight with them and prove to them that you are loving and caring parents and have nothing to hide from them. Ask your neighbors and church family or club friends to help you out with references if need be. Ask them now..and hold them to it. People get chicken when they have to speak with the "establishment" for any reason. Good Luck !!!

-- Helena (windyacs@npacc.net), February 01, 2002.

I have to agree with what Minnie and a few others said. Since your situation has gone this far, there is no sense fighting. Principles and fighting for just causes is admirable, but not worth losing your kids over. You against the state- the odds are they'll win. Running will just make you look guilty and could catch up with you eventually. No animal, cat or dog is worth losing your kids over. The desire to conserve water isn't worth losing your kids over.

I would have never let it get that far. If DSS showed up at my door now, I'd only tell them they needed a warrant and shut the door on them. I've had an incident with DSS a few years ago, not in regards to my own children but a teenage girl without parents that stayed with us along with her sister for a few years. Much much worse accusations than unbathed kids. I apparently pissed off the wrong person and they saw an opportunity to call DSS and report some crazy stuff. It never went past the inital contact from DSS. The social worker admitted to me that a large part of their investigations come from false accusations. You can't blame DSS for that. If they get a report, what choice do they have but to investigate?

Even after that bad experience I still recognize the fact that DSS can also do good things. There are alot of kids out there being mistreated. There's alot of kids living in horrible enviroments. Having children doesn't make a person a parent. I have no idea who my parents are and if not for social services I might not exist today. I'm sure there's other people here who had positive experiences, possibly their only hope in life came from social services.

Regarding daily bathing. Yes, in the past people didn't do it. Lots of people also lived in dirt floor houses back then. Before that they lived in caves and probably never bathed. Sure I could live in a cave now and get by fine if I chose to but I don't need to live in a cave. Since I have a bath and shower at my disposal, why not use it? Spending 5-10 minutes a day taking a shower is hardly a waste of time or water. Not everything that people did in the past was a good thing.

I agree with sonneyacres. It doesn't cost a thing to stay clean and alot of it does come down to a matter of pride. You can also live on a farm and still have an clean house and just because you live on a farm doesn't mean you have to share your house with animals. The way I was raised was that your house is a sanctuary for people and the animals belong in the barn or outside. I know quite a few farmers that live by that also. I grew up on a 70ac farm, myself and an old woman that spent alot of her childhood in a dirt floored sod house. She would have made me live in the barn if I ever brought mud or a goat or chickens or even a dog into the house. No matter how muddy or greasy or dusty, I was to be reasonably clean before I even thought about stepping foot in the house. It was a small thing really, just a few extra minutes of my time but it made a very big difference in our living conditions.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), February 01, 2002.

First thing, I am sure there are 2 sides to every story, maybe even three or four.

Second, everyone should teach their children not to volunteer information about anything to anyone (yes it is hard, and you might have to chaperone your children around strangers for a while until they get the idea). For example, instead of Social Services, if your child happened to mention "oh, we just got a new whatever" to your neighbor you'd be having burglars or worse coming to visit. Even if the child has to be rude and say "None of your business" to an adult, or, "I'm sorry, I'm not comfortable with your questions, or you, and I will talk to you only with my parent present", you back her up.

As to the bath thing, sponge baths or Navy Showers can be just as thorough, and not use up tons of water. One is still "bathing" by any definition of the word. Baby and the 6 year old can be bathed together in the same water. If you or your children have dry skin, bathing every day is not only not needed but actually contraindicated for that condition. You might want to have your own doctor look over your kids and present that as evidence to social services that they are well- cared for.

I also agree with getting rid of all the animals, at least until your financial/housing situation improves. Why? because I can see where any person would logically wonder why your animals are living as well as (or better) than your children (animals do cost money) comparatively speaking.

I agree with a lot of what Sonneyacres had to say, as well as the person who said it was a job security issue for social services. It is for welfare and food stamps, etc., in fact any government "handout" program.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 01, 2002.

Since when does SS/CPS need a warrant to enter/inspect a home? Not required to my knowledge.

-- mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.

re: warrantless entry:

http://www.hope4kidz.org/NoIntrusion.htm

the common thread of experience here says alot. grrrrr

-- B. Lackie - Zone3 (cwrench@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.

Thank you I was begining to think I was the only one who thought that way!!!!

-- sonneyacres (jtgt12@ntelos.net), February 01, 2002.

I live in Arkansas and our DHS system is a joke. Last time I heard of it the State Police had taken over investigating reports. But to be honest I have had just the opposite problem with them. I have called them about the same drug addict mother three times and they have done nothing. Using drugs and neglecting your children are a "lifestyle choice" in Arkansas. She used her little boys urine for a test to try to get a job and HE FAILED. HE IS FIVE. Thank God the poor kids are old enough to start school because now she has to take a little better care or them or they will start calling DHS. But this horrible mother has connections in our county goverment so nothing will ever be done. It is completely up to the county director how far this thing will go. So either you have really made some enemies or you need to clean your house and kids. Only you know whats really going on.

P.S. I have had goats in my bathroom more times than I can count, but not permanantly.

-- renabeth (renabeth@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

DSS is nothing but trouble. My birthmom tried to cooperate with them back in the late '60s. Her crime? A divorced mother with 2 small girls, trying to make a living and living in poverty. She lost. DSS felt that she didn't make enough money to properly feed and clothe us. I was 4 years old and my sister was 1. Our birthfather was in the Marines in Vietnam and sent all the money he could to us. About 2 months after we were removed from our birthmother he found out about it and fought for us. He lost two based on the fact that DSS felt (at that time) that fathers were not good at raising daughters and that he didn't make enough money to feed and clothe us properly. We spent the next 4 years being shuffled from various foster homes and orphanages, each time being sure that we would be abused, molested, neglected, starved, etc. as badly as we were in the home before. DSS didn't seem to mind the fact that we weren't being fed or clothed properly then and that the situation was much worse because of the abuse issues. Things haven't changed any! These people still talk out of both sides of their mouths! In all fairness, we did wind up with a loving family who adopted us. I think that was more God having mercy on us than anything that someone from the DSS would do. You should do what I should have done when CPS came knocking on my door after I had my own family....... get out! leave no forwarding address or anything. If at all possible, move to Indiana. The only thing that anyone has ever said to me about raising children here is that since I homeschool I have to make sure they are homeschooled 170 days per year. That information I got because I asked for it. I'm sure there are horror stories about what the DSS has done here too, but they seem to be fewer and farther apart than what they are in other states. I'll be praying for you!

-- (tombert@tds.net), February 01, 2002.

a piece of news from last year. From the Home School Legal Defense Assoc. website. www.hslda.org

Nature of Case: A home schooling family's civil rights lawsuit against two San Bernardino County social workers has been settled for $40,000. The social workers had insisted upon entry into the DeSantis home to investigate allegations of physical abuse. Mrs. DeSantis told the workers, "You do not have my consent to enter, but the gate is open." The social workers then pushed through the gate and marched into the house. Inside the home, the two younger children were strip-searched and the 7-year-old was subjected to a traumatizing private interview. The DeSantis family sued the social workers for violating their Fourth Amendment right against entry without a warrant.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), February 01, 2002.

I would really like to know which tribal association you have. I have never met any Native who thinks bathing is optional. And I have known some truly poor people. It is traditon to bath each morning when the sun comes up.

As far as your kids go, good luck. I think way too many children are taken away for no reason.

Yes sunnyacres, I agree with you. We both have a Native American friend in common.

-- TB (kituwah@Nunya.com), February 01, 2002.

Wow! I'm so glad I live in Canada. We live in the city, have had 2 dogs, two cats, a rabbit, hamster and 2 birds. My floors aren't usually clean but they aren't filthy. We don't bathe every day, especially in the winter, ugh, I would shrivel up and die from dry skin. Here our Family & Children Services are just the opposite. As a teacher, I have had the unfortunate experience of having to phone F&CS more than once. And it certainly wasn't for a child having dirt on their skin. Usually my ongoing suspicions of abusive parents would finally be proven when the child came to school covered in bruises and hiding under a table. When the child told me that her father kicked her and punched her when he was mad, I made the call with the knowledge and support of my principal. F & Cs went to the house where the parents admitted that it had happened in the past but wasn't happening anymore. They said that the girl was bad and was just lying. Absolutely nothing happened after that. The girl moved on to another school where a caring teacher taught her and her sister how to call the police and the crisis shelter when they needed help!! This is not an isolated case. We have many cases where children have been killed by their parents because the case worker would not remove them from the home. We have had a case on the news this week about a young boy 6 or 7 years old who died from abuse and neglect. His neighbours, teachers and relatives all testified that he was skin and bones the last time they had seen him which was only a few weeks before his death. I think everyone who saw him and did nothing should be charged with neglect and abuse. The social workers that you all have talked about need to get a grip on real life and worry about the real abuse that is going on, not some loving family with less than perfect floors and some pets in their house. Our government tries to save money but keeping kids out of foster care, not pulling them in to save their jobs. I'm not sure which one is worse! As the spouse of a native-Canadian with a 1/2 native daughter, I agree with all the advice to get to your band or tribal council for help even if you don't have much contact now. Racism is alive everywhere, unfortunately you usually have to be non-caucasion to truly understand the extent of it. It is systemic and never really goes away. Diane in Canada

-- Diane Ellis (tweedledoo_13@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.

There are good social workers and bad. There are situations in which children have been removed from the home when they shouldn't be, which causes a great uproar. There are situations (one here in OK within the last couple of years in particular) where a child/children SHOULD have been removed and weren't.

They found one of those children in an unused deep freeze on the back porch of the trailer his mother shared with her boyfriend about four months after the boyfriend drowned him in the bathtub. The mother and older sibling were still living there with the boyfriend.

Social Services is in no way perfect, but they do serve a purpose. It's a shame that sometimes it's hard to tell abuse from neglect from a little dirt. I wish your family luck and will pray for you.

-- Christine in OK (cljford@mmcable.com), February 01, 2002.

I have been shocked by the post that imply or out right say that if you don't bathe every day your dirty, I live in the city, I can run water from daylight to dark and beyond, and I don't bathe every day, I don't put on deodorant every day either, and I don't stink or look unclean, I change undies every day, but some times I wear the same clothes more than once before washing them too.

Yes, there are times that children should be taken from the home, but as was pointed out, often the ones that should be AREN'T. I think because they are too busy harassing decent parents, children have pee accidents, children play in dirt, head lice happens, animals come in the house, floors get dirty, such is life, none of these things are child abuse or neglect.

And about that boy in the old deep freezer, how did his mother get away with abuseing him? She took him out of school, AFTER they started a file at DHS so there where no more complaints from the school the DHS forgot about him.

I'll go away for awhile now........

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

I totally agree with Minnie, and didn't post eairlier. I would sweep my floors every 5 mintues if it meant getting these folks off my back, and not loosing my kids! Not probably so much for the 14 year old but 2 and 6 year olds could stand baths twice a day, especially in the country! Get the animals out of the house, jump through the hoops, then when they leave you alone, you can go back to your principals. And rarely have I seen CPS get involved where at least their wasn't a little fire to the smoke. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.

Hi Stacy, Best Defense is a strong offense. One thing they don't want to have is a PERSONAL Law Suit, go to the courthouse and get the necessary papers to file and have them on the table along with a cam corder and a recorder! Of course an (boy, do I hate to recommend this) Attorney would be a rational approach. These kind of situations sure gets my ire up. Its about time to have about 1000 pipples milling about when they show up.

-- Dick Tracy (kbrdrl@lakewebs.net), February 01, 2002.

Greetings, I'm writing under my husband's name, as he holds this account. I've never done this, but felt compelled; I'm a licensed social worker, and have been so for 13 yrs. My positions have all been working with (not for) some department of the state social services. When asked what I do, I will always reply " make the system do what it's supposed to do". One such position was being contracted to assist families maintain their children in the home INSTEAD of removal to foster care. I also assisted re-unification. I recommended removal of children 1 time in over five years. College never taught me anything regarding remove kids first and investigate after. Yes, I've had CPS workers lie about situations, and families who don't fight back for whatever reason, will be persecuted. I've also had cps workers bend over backwards to do the right thing, against managers orders. I guess I'm trying to say social workers, like lawyers,mechanics, teachers etc. are alike in being human. We also homestead, and I was concerned that someone might file a complaint on us when we first moved out here, for all the same reasons that people have stated previously. I felt safe though, because I knew the law and my rights under state law. Most people didn't though...and still don't. My strongest concern right now, is that people are advising you to hide your children...I understand their strong concern, but fight first. Get them to the res, yes! But do not flee. The "System" will follow...and will remove...guilty until proven innocent. Document everything and make all requests and questions in writing with copies to anyone involved. Have witnesses for all meetings, and ask direct questions, and get clear answers! There are childrens' advocates in all states... make the director give this info to you, and do not be afraid to contact them.

I wish you patience, knowledge, and wisdom. Julie

-- bob vadnais (robertvadnais@aol.com), February 02, 2002.

I never said not bathing each day was dirty. What I said was do not use being part Indian as an excuse to not take care of things or to say someone is picking on you.

I think I will leave to before I become even more angry.

Good luck on dealing with these people.

-- TB (kituwah@nunya.com), February 02, 2002.

Here's my two cents worth! My kiddos have had lice several times and I would consider us clean people. Because we live on a farm I make my children bathe nightly and they still got lice from other children.I've been told by a doctor that they don't come to your head because your hair is dirty,but rather because they need a nice warm head to do what they do best,multiply,they actually prefer clean hair. I know the terror you are going through. In 1996 we lost 50 head of cattle,my grandfather died of cancer,my home business went bankrupt due to the company,I had two lymphoma surgeries,a complete hysterectomy,a sell off of all but two pet cows,a farm sale, had to aquire 2 more jobs to make ends meet after the cows died. I thought this was more than I could bare at the time I had a 10,6 and 2 year old.Then just when I thought it could't get any worse my daughter who was extremely accident prone fell and hit her mouth even though I warned her not too. We have a small house and in my opinion running is for outside. Children will be children!! Well she knocked out a tooth,she said it was loose so I figured what could a dentist do? Sew back in a baby tooth?Besides I couldn't miss my work I was still in my 90 day period I had to put food on the table and keep a roof over our heads.She was in absolutely no danger so I took her in a few weeks later just to be sure she was o.k.Everything went fine. A few weeks later the dentist sent me a letter implying I had beaten her. He tried to pry info. from her( she is extemely shy )and would'nt answer what happened so he assumed just a little too much. He said he wanted to turn me in to dss,but wasn't sure what to do.

I was at the very end of my rope,all I had been through in a 8 month period of time. They say God doesn't give you more than you can handle,but he will let you look over the cliff! All I had lost was nothing compared to the fear of losing the only thing of value I had left. I wrote back the dentist and gave him the what for and told him, he doesn't even know me,never cared to know me,never asked me back to be with my daughter as he checked her teeth. After I told him he wrote back apologized! So maybe God has a lesson in here as to what is important to you and what is not. Never back down on what you know to be the truth!Never let fear motivate you,it will only lead to mistakes! What appears to be abuse, is not. What appears not to be abuse,is! We should all be concerned where we are heading to in today's society. An age where a spanking is abuse,when ignoring children and letting them have their own way and run amuck is society's answer to our future!Letting them visit any porn site on the web and play games like Dungeons and Dragons and kill their fellow classmates. Should'nt we have more concern on these issues,yet they came from seemingly "normal" families. What is society's norm for a family?? Financial wealth! E-mail me and let me know how you are doing and where you are at in Arkansas. My sis is in the DSS in Arkansas and only if you approve she has extensive backgound with these issues and as a sister she would tell me of the inner grievances which should be made public.Again only if you approve.We have been embroiled in many legal situations and I can tell you, with knowledge you yourself can be a legal weapon,which a lawyer will do for large amounts and leave you saying I could have done that myself. You just need to open the lines of communication.An this too shall pass!!

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 04, 2002.

here's an interesting and timely read:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,44851,00.html

-- B. Lackie - Zone3 (cwrench@hotmail.com), February 06, 2002.

WOW!!

-- Trucker in Bonnieville,KY USA (Bkftrucker@msn.com), February 07, 2002.

Great article, B. Lackie. Everyone should check it out. It's dated yesterday so it IS avery timely article.

System Intended to Protect Children Under Fire for Overzealousness

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), February 07, 2002.

You have certain Spiritual beliefs that are based on your religion. They need to know that as well. Here are some Native American Legal Defense and other links that may help. Good luck, click here

-- Sandie in Maine (peqbear@maine.rr.com), February 07, 2002.

Suggestions 1) Refuse to allow workers entry into the house without an appointment. 2) Contact their supervisor and demand another social worker. 3) Demand a copy of the laws governing the situation; ie. what law requires daily baths for children, what law requires daily sweeping, what law requires all animals to be removed from the household, etc. 4) Hire an attorney 5) Videotape/tape record every visit, phone conversation, etc.

The posters who say CPS has enormous amounts of power are right. I adopted my child after 7 years of fostering her. CPS was right in taking her away from her father. They were wrong in taking her away from her mother who was essentially a decent woman (we have an open adoption, so daughter still has ongoing contact w/birth family). Don't believe ANYTHING that isn't it writing!!!!!

-- Anonymous (Madame1953@yahoo.com), February 10, 2002.