I am studying nutrition and am interested if anyone uses a vegan diet or has had experience with that diet? Since it appears that so many disease are preventable or controllable with diet, I am wondering if alternative diets work? I have heard the Hallelujah Diet is vegan and also am familiar with Dr. Day's program (www.drday) but know no one who has eaten this way or has had personal experience. Organic gardening is certainly a step in the right direction which is what we do on our homestead. Thank you. Marie

-- Marie (Mamfila@aol.com), January 04, 2002

Answers

You might want to read this, for starters:

Myths and Truths about Vegetarianism

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

Sorry, I'll try again:

Myths and Truths about Vegetarianism

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

Thank you Earthmamma and I agree with much of what he said. My grandmother lived to be 102 1/2 and not only was the quanity of her life wonderful but the quality. She got her last driver's license at 92 and would you believe it they gave her a 4 year license!! I am searching for answers as I was diognosed with breast cancer last summer and had a masectomy. There was no further treatment necessary, gratefully. However, my question is how can I improve my diet and lifestyle to avoid the situation again? I am certain that key to the whole puzzle is improving ones immune system. My interest with DrDay was that she recovered from invasive breast cancer and if you have seen the pictures on her website of her tumor almost died. She attributes her recovery in a large part to an 75%-80% raw food diet. I have eliminated all white sugar and increasing my raw vegtable intake. I noticed in the archives that you had some experience working with cancer patients. What have you observed? We do raise a large percentage of meat, eggs and have goats. My greatest vice was coffee with sugar and cream all day long, often in place of eating. Thanks Marie

-- Marie (Mamafila@aol.com), January 04, 2002.

Brocolli sprouts are supposed to be good. I think all sorts of sprouts.

We have a vita-Mix and make whole juices. Today it was carrot, citris, kiwi, banana, wheat sprouts.

-- Rick (Rick_122@hotmail.com), January 04, 2002.

Marie..

I understand your wish for a good diet. But, I must put in a plug for just living your life as best as you can. Organic products are good. A balanced diet is good. If you want a cup of coffee don't deny yourself.

Diet gurus and Zoneoids worry me. Make your own rules. Listen to your own body.

-- pc (pc@vermont.c0m), January 04, 2002.

I am vegetarian and have been for about 4 years. I haven't noticed any change in myself - as far as feeling any different - and I didn't lose any weight with the diet change. I still eat eggs, (from our own chickens),and dairy products. (not much cheese). This year I was diagonosed with colon cancer, had the tumor removed in Sept. and am under going chemo therapy and radiation. The Drs. suspect the tumor had been there about 5 years before the diagnosis, which means I developed the cancer in my very early 40's which is a very rare young age for colon cancer. My point is that the vegetarianism sure didn't cure my problem. I became vegetarian because after having so many animals I just couldn't tolerate the thought of eating them anymore. At this point I don't plan on going back to meat eating, but one never knows anything for sure. I don't see meat eating as wrong for those who enjoy it. I have a friend who is totally vegan. She's always had a lot of health problems and still has the same health problems with a few more thrown in since she's gotten older. The vegan diet hasn't cured or solved any of her health problems either, and she sees a dietition. She is vegan because she believes all commercial raising of animals for food is cruel. My advice is to eat as your body craves and what you feel comfortable with. Believe me, I get a lot of back lashing from my family and friends for not being a meat eater, but I don't think it's right for me to tell them what to eat in return. Live and let live, or should we say, eat and let eat !

-- cindy palmer (jandcpalmer@sierratel.com), January 05, 2002.

Hi Marie! I have been vegetarian, (but not vegan,) for 17 years. Vegan means no animal products at all, (like honey for example,) whereas there are lots of kinds of vegetarianism. I am ovo-lacto which means I do eat eggs and dairy products as well as honey. One difference I noticed within the first year was an increase of quality and quantity of muscle mass. (Dried beans have more protein than beef.) However, what I really noticed made a difference in my immune system was to start taking vitamins every day. This has made a huge difference in the sense that I hardly ever get sick anymore, and when I do I seem not to need antibiotics much. Good luck in your experimenting!

-- Leslie in MW OR (leslie@webolium.com), January 05, 2002.

I have been veggie (ovo-lacto) for several years and have definately noticed a change. I used to come down with strep throat two or more times a year. Haven't had it once in the years since switching over to veggie. I am guessing that with my allergies to many antibiotics, residuals in the meats may have been the culprit. My sister is vegan, and as far as I know has no health problems not normally associated with a late-20's West Coaster. We both still get the odd cold or what have you, but I definately notice that although they last just as long, I rarely feel "sick" as such, but rather suffer through what feel like isolated symptoms with no underlying malaise or ickyness. It is just as easy to eat junk food as a veggie - after all Doritos, Snickers and Dr. Pepper are all veggie. If you eat well , rest well, hydrate well, and play well, you will no doubt be well for most of your life.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), January 05, 2002.

Cindy: About your diet, did you eat alot of fiber? I am with the understanding that we should have between 25-30 grams of fiber a day. That is alot of fiber, when you consider that according to one of my sources whole wheat bread only has 2.1, whereas white has 0.8 And that an apple with peel has 2.1 and 1/2 of a banana has only 1.6, 1/6th of a head of lettuce 1.4 The biggest fiber was in a 1/2 cup of baked beans with 11.0 and 1/3 cup of All Bran cereal having 9.0 It would take quite a bit to get up to 25-30 grams. Meat and dairy, of course have none. My oncologist says that in his observations through almost 30 years of practice that his practice would be cut in half if people would stop doing three things: 1.smoking 2.chewing tobacco 3.Alcohol. He say maybe 10% genetic. That leaves 40% unaccounted for and if you don't do the top three then 90%. However, I am also reading that sugar feeds cancer and tumors. Has the chemo made you ill at all? What are you doing to build your immune system? What percentage of your diet would you consider to be raw fruits and vegtables? Thanks Marie

-- Marie (Mamafila@aol.com), January 05, 2002.

Doctors have told me that the foods you eat have nothing to do with cancer. I believe it. A friend who jogs several miles a day, runs marathons, is a vegetarian (practically vegan), has already had 2 forms of cancer, including colon.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), January 05, 2002.

Marie,

I was vegan for 2 years, and vegitarian (eggs and milk products allowed) for 3 years before that. I would be happy to talk to you, but I would rather talk on private e-mail. You should know that I'm NOT vegitarian now, not becasue I don't feel there is healthful reasons for the diet, but my husband isn't vegitarian, and I simply don't feel like cooking different meals for both of us. I was vegitarian for health and eating preference reasons, and have no qualms about eating animals, for the record. Please feel free to e- mail me.

-- Marty in KS (Mrs.Puck@Excite.com), January 05, 2002.

I'm a vegetarain------have been for many years---I lost my immune system because of chemicals I worked with----now I'm allergic to all forms of chemicals--I went to a more "natural" way of life /organic veggies & fruit---natural vit & herbs & homopathic remedies--raiseing most all of our veggies & herbs/etc/etc---I'm ovo-lacto--as I raise my own chickens & ducks & geese & eat their eggs----I have been more towards the vegan side when I have more health problems /as when I'm exposed to chemicals---etc/etc/--& it helps me at that time--- my body has not processed meat for soooooo many years that if I get any form of food even seasoned with meat /I get really sick like a really bad case of the flu. It is because I have not processed meat for many years is why it makes me sick now---- I have nothing against anyone else eating meat---I don't prepare it in my kitchen as it makes me sick---really sick-- Hubby grills him (on the grill outside) what ever he wants to eat as far as meat-(but he is kind & doesn't eat it right in front of me where I can smell it & it make me sick)--& he eats meat when we eat out--our children & grandchildren eat meat---but one grandson is not really fond of it- It depends on my health if I can even stand to be around it or not-- sometimes it doesn't bother me & at other times the smell makes me very ill!!! I baked a turkey & a ham to take to our daughters house for Thanksgiving---it was an hour & half trip--we were in my husbands truck with the food in the back in the camper----it was still enough smell that he had to stop about every few miles for me to throw up--- until I emptied my tummy---for some reason I have not been able to even cook meat in my kitchen since then-----without getting really sick!! I went to being a vegetarain--because I was told by many groups of MD's that they couldn't do anything more for me & to go home & make the best of what time I had left----that was in 1982!!!!!! I found a natural doctor---who helped me---pointed me in the direstion of what/ I put into my body from water quality-to air quality-to food/ to nutrition----I also believe in God's healing--- I went from the doctors telling me /I had a few weeks or months to live/ to being a mean-spoiling machine Grandma!! Who has worked almost everyday of my life from about 1983 on---- The diet & water & quality of air & herbs & natural---is what I feel very certain helped me--- so I just continue with that way of life--- as why rock the boat now!!!!

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), January 05, 2002.

Rogo, I respectfully submit that your two statements would seem to contradict each other? Actually, vegans have quite high rates of several types of cancer, including monks in monasteries. Theoretically something to do with a deficiency of cancer-fighting essental fatty-acids, too much soy which tends to eliminate nutrients from the body, and eating large amounts of conventionally grown (read POISON) fruits, veggies and grains.

Marie, thanks so much for telling where you are coming from with this investigation you are doing. Its very helpful. I too came from a family of long-lived people. All four grandparents lived well into their 90's and ate animal foods every day of their lives. None of them died of heart disease or cancer. Two died of complications from medical procedures (unnecessary, IMO).

I absolutely agree with you about the importance of a strong immune system! I think this is the real key, and although a simple concept, it can be complex to put into action. This is what I try to do in my own life, for what its worth:

1)drink at least two quarts of pure water a day 2)avoid sugar and processed foods as much as possible 3)grow/buy organic foods; and with animal products, make sure they're grass-fed. The chemical composition is entirely different than grain- fed. 4)use a detoxing system every six months. 5)exercise, but not to excess 6)eat a balanced, varied diet of foods in as close to their natural state as possible 7)eat local honey 8)avoid commercial deodorants, and don't wear a bra, especially a tight one, when you don't have to (like around the house) 9)try to limit your exposure to EMF's

I'm sure there are more I'm not remembering right now. These are all physical preventatives, of course. IMO, disease avoidance/treatment is about 80% spiritual/mental/emotional. If you are interested in this line of discussion, email me privately and I would be happy to help if I can. I highly recommend a new book by Gary Zukav called "The Heart of The Soul". It explains in easy to understand terms the mind/body connections and what we can do about it.

Bless you for your thoughtful questions/comments. May you live in peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 05, 2002.

Rogo, that is amazing about your friend, it would seem that he is getting plenty of fresh air, excersice, and possibly sunshine. Maybe he is pushing his body too hard? Another component that my grandmother had within her life and I know must contributes to the well being of our bodies is that she was at peace within and with those "in her world", her family, friends and neighbors. I never heard her speak ill of anyone. She also did not take the newspaper, but opted to listen to a gentler form of even negative news via Paul Harvey every day as she took her noon nap, having been up since daylight and busy in her home, garden, etc. She had a very rythum (sp?) about her life, never pushed, just a quiet purposefulness. She never watched T.V. preferring to keep her hands busy sewing or braiding rugs. It just seems that every Doctor attributes healing to a healthy diet. In the extreme, no one could live very well on a Twinkie and cola diet. My question has been what defines a "healthy diet" and what has been the experience of those who have opted to use the Vegan diet.

Earthmama, other than the vegetarian twist,you and Sondra have some common ground. This drday also attributes much of what you said about the importance of lots of good water, fresh air (windows open at night)exercise, sunshine (20-25 minutes a day) exercise (outside in fresh air) rest (in bed by 9:00-9:30) temperance ( eliminating sugar, processed food, alchohol, smoking and for her it was of course meat and meat byproducts) nutrition ( lots of raw vegtables and fruit, 75% of diet) and trust in God. The one thing that does stand out to me with this approach is the fact that anyone, regardless of your finances could have access to good health. It seems that it could fit in perfectly with a homesteader's lifestyle. There would of course be differences or variations of one's definition or nutrition and even how one views God, but there is much room for agreement. What percentage of your diet would you consider fresh or raw? Thank you all for your thoughts. Marie

-- Marie (Mamfila@aol.com), January 05, 2002.

Marie---- I agree--I didn't mention---but it is not only the pure water & air & natural diet & nutrition I put into my body---but also my belief in God & what I read & what I listen to & what & Who I surround myself with & I LAUGH A LOT!!!!! Sonda

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), January 05, 2002.

Earthmama: Since you have experience with both sets of grandparents, does your diet reflect their diet? What was the quality of their lives? If you don't mind how long have you practiced your eating and lifestyle? I had not been to a Dr. since I was 15 for an appendix operation. In the last over 30 years, I have only been to have my children. Only on antibiotics once for pinkeye and that was on my eye. In evaluating diet/lifestyles I was not a water drinker, yes, a fluid drinker, but not water. Worked in the garden when it was cool to AVOID the sun and "drank" way too much white sugar. Trying to determine the "right" diet for myself. How do you detoxify yourself? I have to question the vitamin desision because I have seen the difference in gardening between using natural soil conditioners and chemical fertilizers. Vitamins are also very expensive and a lot of times out of reach for those of humble means. I know our soil is maybe not what it was years ago, but has man yet been able to recreate it? I know you were not the one that mentioned the vitamins, but am making that just as a general observation. Marie

-- Marie (Mamafila@aol.com), January 05, 2002.

Hi Marie,

I would say my grandparents had a terrific quality of life overall, as far as their own personal happiness and health was concerned. Course they never had much money, but they had no basis for comparison so it didnt seem to bother them much. My moms folks lived on her home farm till they were in their 80's, pretty much raised all their own food, were very devout Pentacostals and Finnish immigrants. Dad's side left the farm before I was born, lived on a lake in northern MN, had a big garden, no animals but got most of their meat from neighbors and relatives' farms. Very simple lifestyles. Both sides had 7 kids.

Looking back, the two grandparents who lived to late nineties were the nicest people of the four (one on each side). I know some folks say "so and so is too mean to die" :), but I think people who are truly laid back and have learned how to use their emotions as a tool for self-improvement rather than blame, have a better quality of life, and are just much more pleasant to be around, cuz they've made themselves happy.

Does my diet reflect their diet? Haha........I wish I could give an emphatic 'you betcha!' But I must confess I have my weak moments like most people; I have a yo-yo battle with sweets addiction, occassionally have a few too many glasses of wine, and forget to drink my water. But I have learned to forgive myself, do the best I can, and learn different ways to do better. Even my dear ol Finnish grandma had a thing for pies and cakes, and was kinda a chubby ol gal, and she did ok.

I never go to doctors, except for injuries and diagnosis. My father has practically lived his life in doctor's offices and hospitals it seems, since he had his first heart attack at 36. Does everything they tell him, and still ends up sick. But that's another story.

I imagine you're aware that high coffee consumption is supposedly connected with breast cancer, so glad to hear you've kicked it. And yes,lots of dietary sugar is another cancer friend.

You asked about raw food intake. I just try to eat/serve something raw with every meal, and make sure there is always abundant fruit/veggies available in the house. My kids are big on raw foods, especially my 14 year old. Even when she was 4 she would get odd looks when we'd go to a restaurant and order a salad........sans dressing yet! I have a weird book called "We Want To Live" by Aajonus Vonderplanitz (!) about this guy who eats almost everything raw. He's obviously an extremist, but I think extremists are important, cuz they help the rest of us find our middle. For the past few years since I first read this book, I try to eat a little raw meat every day too, for its immune system properties. Course I don't do this with grocery store meat or eggs. I personally don't feel its necessary or even entirely useful to eat such a large part of ones food raw in our daily lives as does Dr Day and some, but I know that it can be very beneficial to do so for the short term when one is in a healing crisis, as an additional method of continuing detoxing, especially if one's diet has been in large part a typical American diet. Mircles do happen all the time as she has found; there are many natural ways to help the body heal itself of deadly diseases, without side effects; I have seen it many many times in my clients. God, however you define the word, is alive and well, and I feel provides us with Nature in great part to help us heal, body as well as mind and spirit.

Detoxing can be done in lots of ways. Basically its flushing out your system, long enough to include your liver especially. I actually sell a product that does this,click here for info and I use it myself one week a month since I have it here anyway, but there are any number of others one can use. Some people just do a juice fast for three days, which is certainly better than nothing and very inexpensive.

I personally agree with your reservations about commercial vitamin supplements. I used to be very big on them, but have become leery since reading more frequent reports of negative stuff connected to them. Makes sense to me anyway that laboratory manufactured nutrients really contradicts my belief in natural foods/medicine. Trouble is, naturally-derived supplements are in some cases (like vit c) almost impossible to find! Vit C is especially profitable to manufacture, cheap as sugar, and usually derived from GMO corn. Yuck. But people have to have extra C sometimes, and have little or no option. So I just use it when I feel my body needs it, and don't use it very often anymore. Most of my supplementation now consists of herbs.

Hope this helps......blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 06, 2002.

I kinda like the old addage, 'I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian!' -G-

I eat when I'm hungry. I eat what I'm in the mood to eat. I rarely eat fruits and veggies. I'm a big meat eater. I don't buy any products that are 'low' or 'no' fat. I use butter, not margarine. I fry with lard. I like 'junk' food. I like processed food like the frozen dinners. 5 feet, 100 pounds and full of energy. I haven't had a cold/flu nor any sickness as an adult. I'm in my 60's.

I have many friends who are physicians, and I've asked them why I'm still alive. (Friends don't talk to you like your doctor does!) They chuckle and say they really don't know for sure WHAT folks should eat, each person is different, and I'm proof of that.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

Marie, around the world, the cultures that eat the highest amount of animal fat also have the highest rate of breast cancer, and prostate cancer as well. The cultures with the lowest intake of animal fat (like China, most of the far east, rural Africa, and most third world nations), that base their diet around whole grains and fresh vegatables and beans, have the lowest rate for breast and reproductive cancer and prostate cancer is non-existent.

I highly respect Earthmomma's opinion and value her input, but I really believe that our diet is what is killing us so quickly here in America and in the rest of the developed world. Meat and animal fat are best taken as a condiment, if at all, all the essential oils she mentions can be obtained as vegetarian sources, such as flaxseed oil, evening primrose oil, black current oil, and of course, olive oil.

Personally, I don't eat other mammals as an ethical decision as well as a health reason, I don't look at a cow, pig or sheep any different than I look at my Arabian horses, I can't eat my friends and loyal companions any more than I could be a cannibal.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 07, 2002.

When people tell me they forego meat because they are too soft- hearted to eat their animal friends, there is nothing more that needs to be said. I would never dream of being so arrogant as to try to convince anyone that there is anything wrong with their perspective. Annie is one of those people, and I consider her a friend.

However, in the interest of open information and education, I feel compelled to add that once again there are at least two sides to everything, and blanket statements are probably an invitation to debate. In this case, as concerns the comparison of cultures around the world, their diets and disease rates, many of these points were covered in the above link I posted. Here is another article on this subject, as it pertains to China, including how our cancer rates compare. We can all make up our own minds I guess, for we will all believe pretty much what we want to anyway.

FOOD IN CHINA

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

Wow! much to consider. In the article on China I found interesting that the AVERAGE lifespan for women in Okinawa is 84 years old. "Okinawa is a breezy, pleasant place, neither crowded nor polluted, with a strong sense of family and community, where the local people produce much of what they consume"..... Sounds to me like homesteading, oriental-style!! Dr.Day readily admits that she had changed her diet for several months, 8-9, I believe and her turmor grew even larger. It was not until she changed her whole lifestyle that she began to recover. (I only refer to her as I have no other comparative as most women go the chemo/radiation route. She was diagnosed in 1992 and her credibility would seem to be on the line.) When looking at the average American lifestyle besides diet. Most people spend a large percentage of their time (i.e.lives)under very unnatural conditions. Very little fresh air ( many offices/schools have windows that don't even open.) minimal sunshine, clorinated water, drinking sodas, coffee, tea instead of water, going to bed late trying to catch up for time spent during the day. No time to rest, reflect, pray or meditate during the day. Eating on the run. Very little time to grow their own food and especially the lack of the necessary time needed to nourish the relationships of their loved ones, family and neighbors. Nutrition is important, but so is the rest to a healthy immune system. I know that I have made some real changes, really pleasant ones, here on our homestead and am continuing to evaluate other ways to take better responsibility for the gift of life that I was given. I see it as a win-win for myself, my family, my friends and neighbors. Thank you so much for your honesty,observations and thoughts. Marie

P.S. Rogo--You must consider yourself blessed, however 60 is still fairly young. When you are 80 years, let me know "the rest of the story..." I will be interested.

-- Marie (Mamafila@aol.com), January 07, 2002.

Marie...sure does sound like homesteading life to me, also! And the Okinawans seem to agree with Emeril when he says "pork fat rules" :-)!!!

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), January 08, 2002.

Why do I get the impression that after reading much of this thread that Americans (especially women) are becoming a bunch of hypochondriacts? I beleive attitude and outlook have much more to do with health and quality of life than diet. What am I missing here? In this thread people are suggesting that we become like the Africans and Far Eastern countries, etc. because they eat a low fat diet and thus have less cancer (my paraphrase). ANd someone said in this thread "diet is what is killing Americans so quickly." Helloooooo? What have I missed? Seemed like the last time I checked Americans have one of the longest expected life spans of any country and our expected life span keeps increasing every year. --Happy trails, Cabin Fever

-- Cabin Fever (Cabinfever_mn@yahoo.com), January 08, 2002.

Cabin Fever: I may have asked that same question a year ago, but not today. This last year SEVEN of my friends or acquaintances have either been diagnosed with cancer (brain or breast) or died----ages from 36 years to early 50's. Of the three that died they all went the medical route. In Dr. Day's video she claims that the motivation that caused her as a mainstream medical doctor to look to alternatives was watching the results of the medical profession. Here you have medical doctor coming forwards and questioning not only the causes of the disease, but the CURE that modern medicine is using. It does give you cause to ponder. I am 46 years old and do not remember as a child, teenager, or young adult this seemingly high incidence of cancer. Do you? Especially in women in the prime of their lives. Many doctors will agree that a healthy immune system is your body's own best line of defense, which is, actually maybe your best line of offense. Because women often are responsible for the health of not only their ownselves but that of their children and families you can see why we would be pursuing our own questions. Marie

-- Marie (Mamafila@aol.com), January 08, 2002.