OK, I've got it in my head that I need to save a draft horse. There is an auction in Indiana (Shipshewana) every Friday, and I'm told there is a big kill pen and lots of horses sold there for meat. Being that this is Amish country, I guess a lot of drafts end up there, and the meat buyers love it, cuz, well, there's lots of meat on a draft horse. :( So, anyway, I'm convinced I want to pursue this, but I want to find out everything I can first. I have never been to a horse auction. Shipsy has the reputation of having some truly pathetic animals go through there, and I know of several rescues that came from that place. I am guessing it will be much worse than a visit to the dog pound, so I'm trying to prepare myself mentally/emotionally. Any advice you have to offer on my plan will be greatly appreciated; including advice on the big horses. I will be going with a very knowledgeable friend, so I will have some idea of what I'm looking at in terms of health and physical problems. But I certainly don't know about this kill-pen stuff, or how meat buyers operate. Thanks.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 04, 2002

Answers

I guess the question is what are you going to do with these horses if you are able to purchase them. Meat buyers have the unlimited funds to buy them. I have a friend that has a "no kill" dog/cat shelter. It does cost her a lot of her own time and money to keep this shelter going. She was able to obtain a tax shelter for non- profit. That is something you might want to check into.. non- profit. Yes...it is going to be a lot worse than the local dog pound. Expect to have your heat broken right there on the floor of the auction. At our animal auctions I always wish I could get the people who owned these animals and do what these animals must have went through to them. I just don't understand people and their lack of kindness to animals.. then I wonder how they are with humans too ?? You could find out if the humane society is aware of this auction. How about a "horse humane" group ?? The auction will probably not allow any cameras or such into the auction. But you are dealing with people..not to cast a shadow on some very responsible farming families that take wonderful care of their animals and I praise them highly for this...but some people don't respect life in any form. I wish you the best of luck but know you will be shocked and upset from your days dealing at this auction...please let us know how it goes !! Good Luck !!

-- Helena (windyacs@npacc.net), January 04, 2002.

Just to clarify a couple points: our sanctuary is a non-profit charity...we've been operating 8 years and are knowledgeable about costs associated with horse-keeping...we lost a horse this past summer and have a spot to fill in that pasture...and the horse we get from the auction will live it's life out here at the farm. I'm dreading the visit to this auction, knowing I can only save one of the many suffering animals I'll see there. Your experiences and advice will be helpful to me.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 04, 2002.

First I'm glad you have knowledge of horses ---as many people who buy one or as you say want to rescue-one---have no knowledge of how to care for /or what a horse needs!!!!!! My Dad raised draft horses for many years----you would be real suprised what a team can eat in a week or months time!!! Also if you have never been to horse auction----go & visit before you would even consider buying a horse-- would you buy a horse with out knowing how to care for one???? then my advice is not to go to a horse auction until you know how they operate & what to expect--- each sale barn or action has it's own "art form" of how it works!! I have family members who are cattle & horse buyers & are order buyers---you won't know they are even buyers & when they bid until you know the art of that sale barn & how it works!!! How the auctioneer & the buyers work together--- my advice is go & educate yourself!!!!! By experience---don't rely on someone else----if you can't tell a sick animal from a well one OR IT'S HEALTH OR WHAT PHYSICAL PROBLEMS /ect----I would have to think you need to have some more experience before you bought one!!!!! my opinion only!!!! I get really tired of helping people who THINK THEY KNOW ABOUT ANIMALS & THEY TRUELY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY NEED TO TO BE GOOD CARE GIVERS!!!!!! Before you decide your are an expert & can rescue one of these animals ----research & experience would be my advice!!!!! Again--- I'm soooooo tired of people thinking they are experts on livestock & have to rely on some one else!!!!!!! If you don't know all about a draft hosrs it's needs & how mush it eats & how much care it needs if it is sick or well--or have to rely on someone else ---or have never even been to a horse sale thn I whole heartly would reccomend you do some more research--on your own fisrt hand!!!!!! I don't mean to sound harsh------but I'm sooooo sick of people who don't deserve animals or know anything about them-or how to care fro them/ thinking they can rescue them from others!!!!!! Maybe I'm haveing a bad day---but I have had sooooo many calls from horse owner want a be's who have bought a horse & ruin it cause they know nothing & blame the animal or it's previous owner!!!! Or my hosre does this or that----well what did you know about a horse & what to do before you bought this good horse & ruined it???????? Back to my orginal advice---know more about the horse you want to buy & the auction--- & don't bad mouthan auction if you have never been there----my own opinion only---who was raised on a seat in a sale barn!!! Next to a buyer!!

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), January 04, 2002.

Sonda, I see I've hit a nerve! You must get a lot of calls from inept horse owners, and I can relate to your frustration. I feel I have enough experience and knowledge to pursue this. We have a few horses already, so I'm not going into this as a total newbie. The only new part is the auction itself, and you may be right, I may need to visit a few times before I try to buy. But if I get there next Friday and there's a horse going for a hundred and fifty bucks and my gut tells me I should get it, I'm going to go for it. I do have self-control, however. I can even go to the dog pound and leave without a dog (sometimes). I am trying to keep my head on straight in circumstances that are bound to be very emotional. Once again, that is why I am seeking advice from the wise people of this forum.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 04, 2002.

Shannon, you are far braver than me!!! I can't go to ANY animal auction because I get terribly upset at even the good, decent ones that operate, all the animals are scared and frightened out of their wits, horses especially so since they are so territorial in nature. They are all creatures torn from their familar homes and shipped, often for the first time, to a completely unfamilar place, jammed together like so my sardines, often treated quite rudely to put it mildly.

Bad horse auctions I could never, ever get anywhere near, I know what goes on in them, and I have bought a horse in the past that came from the Sugarcreek, Ohio horse auction. He was a lovely large 16 hand Registered Arabian that had been beaten by his previous Amish owners, and had injured himself in being transported to and from the auction. A horse dealer purchased him there and I bought "Sonny" from him, the dealer was almost too embarrassed to show him to me, he was literally starving to death, and had healing wounds all over him, his feet torn up terribly from neglect. It took me over a year to physically rehabilitate him and he never got over his intense fear of men, he never did load onto a trailer willingly, but only did it because I wanted and asked him to. He was my best endurance horse for many, many years and thousands of miles of competition until I had to have him put down due to bladder cancer at the age of 14.

I still cry when I think of the pain that horse went through in his life, and damn all souls to eternal damnation that abuse any animal that way.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 04, 2002.

Annie, sometimes the only peace of mind I get is by believing that there is, indeed, a special place in hell for such people.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 04, 2002.

Shannon. I think it's great what you are doing! Remember to take a small trailer so you won't end up buying everything in sight. The slaughter horses are a sad sight, even though the horses are in terrible shape, there isn't an ugly one in the bunch to a horse lover. The meat horses are usually grouped together in lots and the meat buyers buy the whole lot at once. One buyer in my area buys 200 or so at a time and turns them out to pasture to fatten them up even more.

At an auction, you should have time before hand to check out all of the horses and ask questions. It is illegal to sell or buy a horse before the auction starts. If for some reason you don't get to bid on the horse, there is nothing wrong with asking the buyer if he will part with the horse. Meat buyers are actually pretty easy to work with, they don't exactly enjoy seeing animals in pain and most would love to find a good home for one. Sounds like you are on the right track, I know you are great with animals, I hope you get him! Good luck!

-- cowgirlone (Cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), January 04, 2002.

Oh come one guys, these meat buyers dont sound like rotten people. Sounds like they are in business buying junk horses (no Amish in his right mind would let a good draft horse go at meat prices!) And what, may I ask, is the difference between eating PORK (pigs are very intelligent and trainable critters) and HORSE. Not that the horse bought at these auctions is put on our tables, mind you. Now heres my suggestion. You want a draft horse? Go get a GOOD one. yep, bite the bullet and buy one. If you want to adopt a horse, I suggest wild mustangs, they are easy to aquire (if you want details -ask) and good solid horses. Leave to meat horses meat hoprses, and get one youll be happy with. PS I am to the point where I am having some serious re looks at "factory" meat in general. If you want to trully be sure that the animal you are eating had a good life, raise it yourself and CARE for it. You are removing your buying dollar from the market, so factory animals wont be raised to feed you (enough folks get to gether and factory meat will be city folks only.)

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), January 04, 2002.

I partially agree with Kevin. The reason drafts are there is primarily they were injured and/or are too old and can no longer pull. Having dealt with many auctions, you are facing an uphill battle. First there's a Coggins test required before transport and a bill of sale. The Coggins test is important if taking the horse across state lines. Horsemeat is sold in foreign countries, virtually none of it is sold in the USA.

We had a problem a few years back when the BLM offered wild horses for sale (via auction) starting at $5 each. Went well for a while, until it was discovered that certain federal workers were making illegal money...buying wild horses and selling to the killers and pocketing the difference. All of that has been changed and there are many wild horses with new homes throughout the western US, because of people who cared about their welfare. We have several wild horses here and about a dozen wild burros.

If you have a need for this particular draft, then by all means go to the auction and purchase it. But don't do it for the wrong reason.

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

And for those who don't know about a Coggins test, here's a link http://www.horse-previews.com/598articles/598vetcorner.html

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

I went to the sale barn the other day and they was dong the same thing with pigs, cattle, goats and sheep. Selling them and then puttig them in the kill pen.

-- Mel Kelly (melkelly@webtv.net), January 04, 2002.

Shannon, you are really going to get a heartbreak if you go to that sale. I don't live to far away from there my sister went last year. She told me about a horse in the kill pen who couldn't get up to be sold so they came in and scooped it up alive in a bucket of a payloader, my heart broke hearing of this, the horse must have been so terrified. How about adopting a premerin foal instead, they need homes too. And aren't in as questionable health?

-- Sherrie R. Clifton (BryrPatch35@aol.com), January 04, 2002.

"Meat Buyers" don't love Draft Horses, yes they will buy them but they will pay more per pound for a standard size horse. A Draft Horse does produce the same quality of meat that a standard size horse will.

-- Mark in N.C. Fla. (deadgoatman@webtv.net), January 04, 2002.

I am scratching my head over the descriptions of these horse auctions. I am not in Amish country but the auctions I have attended were not like that. Yes, an occasional thin horse will come thru. Everybody knows who the "kill man" is. I don't like it but I can't take them all home. There were no more than 2 horses to a stall, they were led or ridden in. A wild nutty acting horse doesn't bring alot of money and the auctioneer makes his money on a commission. A vet checked and pulled a coggins if they didn't already have one coming into the barn. Horses with out one are sold under a "yellow" light so that you know that a coggins is pending. I wouldn't sell a horse at the auction because I hope that mine are better than that. Most sale barn animals are there because nobody else wants them or something is wrong with them---- not all of them of course but I would be very wary of a sale barn horse. I think I have been to about 2 in my whole life and after reading these posts, probably won't go to any more.

There was a incident where a man bought two horses that were brought in to the ring in BAD shape. He bought them ,took them home, and really poured the feed and hay to them. Hired a farrier and had his vet checking them..... the Humane Society TOOK them, charged HIM with cruelty, and hauled them 200 miles away and published the story on local and state news..... with out telling that he had bought them and was trying to do the right thing. His business suffered terribly because nobody wanted to do business with a man who "abused horses". The vet, the farrier and the guy who brought them to the sale ( he had taken them from the abusers who rented his pasture) all testified before the judge and it was all tossed out. The Humane Society tried to bill him for feed, board and hauling and wanted HIM to go pick them up.... My point here is --- be careful.

-- Tana McCarter (mcfarm@totelcsi.net), January 04, 2002.

Be careful buying from an auction, Shannon. Your heart is certainly in the right place but most of those horses are there for a reason, many have serious health problems (you could easily bring home nasties to your ponies), and many have serious behavioral problems. If you could find an older draft that the Amish have used up, you may have a decent horse--they're *usually* well broke but the Amish won't part with a horse that has an ounce of work left in it. There's also a downside to Amish drafts they don't get off the farm much and they catch every nasty they come in contact with when sold.

I don't like horse slaughter but I feel it's a necessary evil, I'd rather put more effort into humane transport to the slaughter plants. From what I've read and heard (killer buyers don't talk about it much) they don't like older drafts because they really don't produce that much more meat than a saddle horse. I read somewhere that the Japanese like very fat older draft horse meat, but most other countries prefer 10-15 year old Quarter Horses. Killer auctions are very sad places, I go to a local one infrequently and usually leave after they sell the tack. Go to one without a trailer to watch the bidding and to see which people buy the killer horses, many times they have an "in" with auction management and you'll be bumped out of the bidding. You can approach them after they've purchased the horse and offer more for it. I haven't been watching horse meat prices so I'm not sure of the going rate, but it might be a good idea to find out before you go to purchase.

Good Luck in your search, and I hope an elderly draft lives the Life of Riley with you.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), January 04, 2002.

I personally have never bought a critter at an auction and I never will. But I have been to many. Not all critters are in bad shape; some are in excellent condition. Where I've been, the killers have a ceiling price they won't go over. (They have to make a profit.) I even saw one of the killers relent the sale to a young kid 'cause she wanted the horse so badly.

Do you know the cost of feeding a draft horse, farrier work, etc.? Do you have a good vet who will work with you? Are you able to pay the vet bills if the critter is in bad shape? Be forewarned ~ there will always be horses and other stock dumped at auctions that folks want to save. You can't save the world and you should know your limitations. You could get to the point of not being able to afford the needed care and become another statistic.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

If the plan is to take a horse to an auction for slaughter, a Coggins test is not needed.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

A Coggins test is "required" when horses are brought across state lines for any reason (sale or otherwise). A negative test is assurance for the next owner.

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

Shannon, do you know anyone who takes drafts to fairs or pulling competitions? You may be able to rescue a retiree who can't pull his/her weight (so to speak) but is simply old, not unhealthy. Or you may find a horse that isn't a team player. If you are truly reticent about attending this auction, don't do it. Go to the draft pulls and get to know some of the competitors. Find out who is naughty and who is nice, then let them know what you would like to do. I have worked with drafts that came from dealers and have seen some truly heart-wrenching problems that you wouldn't have known from a good once-over, even by someone with experience.

As a side note, you definately have my admiration. Not everyone has been diplomatic in this thread but you have responded in a very empathetic and level-headed manner to all. It would be nice if we could all be that way!

-- Sheryl in ME (radams@sacoriver.net), January 04, 2002.

Hey! Ya'll really should check out the website for Shannon's animal sanctuary. Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), January 04, 2002.

This place will haunt you if you go. I've been there.I'm not saying that the people are bad,just that this place ends up being the end of the line for many horses.That feeling can get overwhelming there. And it has been on the Chicago news stations twice with hidden cameras. It is just a sad fact of life.But if you can go save one ,by all means do.

-- Sherry (gunther@liljasper.net), January 04, 2002.

Kevin, I take your point to heart daily, there is no difference between a pig, cow, or my beloved Arabian horses, and I don't eat my fellow mammals, I'm no hypocrite.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 04, 2002.

Shannon,

Knowing that you are going to rescure and probably not really work this horse, you could buy anyone that catches your eye. And there usually are only a few that will come over for attention as you walk the aisles before the start of the auction.

You should look for skinny horses that are sound. They are usually neglected and not always abused and once fattened, continue to have useful lives. Some killers don't want to take the time to fatten some horses (not all, some)

Keep in mind that some horses are drugged before a sale to cover lameness or behavior. Yes, it is unethical and illegal but it happens.

And like someone suggested, you could aways approach a buyer after and make an offer. I remember I made an offer to someone for some chickens. He felt he could get ALOT more going through the sales. He not only got ALOT less, but I bought the hens from the buyer for less then I offered the orginal owner.

Good luck and stay tough.

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), January 04, 2002.

You are one very special person doing what you do. I did have at one time, about 12 yrs ago a list of horse rescue organizations. I was raised on a horse i swear! learned to ride at 4 and went from there til 8 yrs ago when we sold my arabian after we moved from NY to VA because first of all, he was offered a nice home from my husband's friend who so wanted to ride him and the fact boarding was too expensive in VA. If i could ahve only known a yr later we would ahve bought our farm! Oh well! He is beautiful and i saw him 3 yrs ago.

Anyways, I have been to the monthly horse auctions in both VA and NY. I recall the ones in NY were the 3rd Sat of the month, there were riding horses, drafts, etc and there was also a lot of cull horses or sickly ones being sent for meat. There was a reason back there why there were more sold for meat and it steamed form this incident. A person who sells a horse who is not trained or "wild acting" (I put quotes because i believe that they can be trained with patience and love, sorta like the Horse Whipperer. Anyways, my best friend had a good friend yrs before, probably late 80's who purchased this really nice riding horse from that auction. The horse was rode into the ring and was calm, so she bids and wins. She gets the horse home and several hrs later he was bucked off, bitten and seriously injured. Because.... the horse was tranqualized. The shot wore off and he freaked. She wasn't the only one, there were others as well. So a few yrs later there was a warning sign at auctions for sellers of "wild horses" because if you sold such a horse you could be faced with a lawsuit. So that provided more horses for the meat buyers.

The horses sold for meat were so sad looking, abused, neglected, ets. I recall seeing a few horses with some serious injuries, I think the saddest I saw was a horse whose owner tried to shoot him after he beat him with a whip and left gouges. Some of the buyers would come down from Canada where there was a little bit of a demand for horse meat.

so approach with caution, ask questions and look closely at eyes for signs of being drugged. I wish you well and hope you can help.

OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I remembered this just now, there is an organization, they are out of northern VA who rescue horses and live on a beautiful sanctuary. Drat, can't recall name, that wa salso about 7 yrs ago i read about them.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

Shannon,

Having attended many auctions, there are a couple of things that you should be aware of:

1. Drugging is frequent and does happen often, especially with the non-regular sellers of stock. However, you can pick up on that by getting to the auction early, watching the stock unload, and by all means take a pen and a little book with you. The stock will be unloaded generally at a load in chute where the stock will be given a stick on number. this number is usually put on the horse's tail or rear end. If you see an animal that you like, record the number in your book and record what you see during the unloading and stalling of the horse. Most druggers won't med a horse until about a half hour before the horse is scheduled to run through the sale (wouldn't want those meds to wear off before the horse is actually in the sale ring), so you will have a chance to see what the horse is like prior to sale or drugging. Keep walking around checking the back pens and keep up with the order of the sale pens. After a couple of times at an auction, you will get used to how the order goes, which pens sell first. Around here ponies, mules, and donks go first, then registered stock, then everything else.

2. You can buy a horse that has been unloaded, but not run through the load in chute. I have bought a horse that way before, paid a little more for her outside the sale arena, but she was a very nice old paint mare. Once the animal is inside the chute, you will have to wait for the horse to hit the sales ring and then bid.

3. Go to the auctions several times before you buy a horse so you can recognize the killer buyers and the regulars. A lot of times the killers will part with a particular animal if they know you really want the horse. they are not all bad people, and actually serve a purpose as it is not them that brought those horses to the sale in the first place, nor did they put the animals in such bad shape either.

4. When you find a horse you like, let the auctioneer run the price first. He will generally open with something higher than folks will actually bid on. Like $500, he will ask if anyone will bid 500. No one usually responds and he will drop the bid opening back a hundred or so. Sit tight and watch who bids, you can always jump in with your bid before the "selling, selling, sold" happens.

5. Don't expect to buy a horse from the high bidder unless you pay enough to make it worth his/her while to part with the animal. In other words, the high bidder is going to make a profit. So get the animal in the sale ring if you really want it.

6. Expect the animal you get to probably have some worms, disease, cough, cold, etc. from just being around so many animals and most horses that go through the sales have never been away from home before. Quarantine, Quarantine, Quarantine.

7. Some horses you will see will have a metal tag and a paper sticker on them. These horses were at a previous auction prior to this auction. The current owner did not remove the previous sticker from the horse. I would totally stay away from those. Not only did the horse sell somewhere else, but now has been transported to a new auction. More germs and nasties.

8. And finally, if you absolutely must buy a meat horse, why not catch one prior to the auction? Get the word out that you want a retirement horse - the Amish are probably like everyone else and will sell you a horse destined for the market. After all, they will have to transport the horse, pay the sell fee, and will save the trouble of taking the horse to market. You will get a horse that hasn't been exposed to every germ in the world. Also, those premarin babies that everyone is talking about - it is a good deal, For about $700 you can get a healthy six -seven month foal that is destined for the meat market. these babies never really have a chance even at slaughter. Most people who buy meat horses get the older horses that are decent weight. So these babies at market generally go to the worst places as no one really wants a horse that is untrained, not heavy enough, and can't be ridden. There are Premarin auctions, but there are websites that are begging people to adopt these babies. Most are located in Canada (that I've seen) on the web.

Good luck

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), January 05, 2002.

I cannot thank you enough for all this advice. I am taking every single word of it to heart. Question: the horse I buy at the auction; will it have had a coggins prior to arriving at the sale? In other words, when does the legal requirement for the coggins come in...if a horse doesn't have a negative paper with it at the time of purchase, what else can I do but bring it home and have it done once we get here? How likely is it that I will get a coggins positive horse anyway? What are the signs of a drugged horse? Also, for the record, I'm not going into this with an attitude toward the meat buyers. I know they are simply making a living, and I realize they are not necessarily bad people. In dealing with them (if I even have to) I plan on giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are decent & reasonable folks.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 05, 2002.

Draft horses are usually huge lovable creatures and I would love to have one myself. They do eat alot, though and sometimes it can be hard to find a farrier who will do them because they have a tendency to lean. A neighbor of mine who owns a draft has to have a seperate farrier who brings a big rack to hold the horse up so he doesn't get crushed while doing his feet. We have seen her herd of horses barreling down the road more than once because the shear size of her draft scared her mares and sent them through the fencing at first. They did get used to him, but it took some time. They are also very strong and she's lost him while training him many times. He's been seen barreling past our house with training drag in tow.

As far as auctions go, it is true they are sometimes drugged. At a friend's equine rescue there's an Arab someone bought at auction and had to give away because he is truly murderous. He has to be kept in a solid walled stall and they have to slip food in under the stall door. A friend saw a horse she wanted to bid on at an auction, but the horse never came out: the 'meat man' was by the auctioneer's podium and claimed the horse before it was bid on. The last time we went to the auction many of the horses had a set price that the owner would not let it go for less than. One was an old draft horse who came out to be bid on but not sold because no one wanted to pay the price. My mother bought a pony for the kids at that auction and it had pink eye, brinchitis, and asthma. We cured what we could and make sure his stall is as dust free as possible, but they kids enjoy him so much it was worth it.

Another option for you would be to go to a horse dealer who has a seperate killing pen and buying a draft from them. I have another friend with an equine rescue who went to the local slaughter house and made a deal with the owner: when horses go through, she gets a call to come look at them and the chance to buy them.

Other places to look for other breeds to rescue would be the racetrack. The Amish send trucks all the way up here to Maine so they can buy horses right from the track. Many times a horse will be injured during a race and immediately sold to the Amish. Made it known that you're looking for horses to rescue and people will come to you. Put an ad in the paper or at local feed stores and you may get calls. Draft horses are used up here for hauling wood out of the woods during mud season, find out where these people associate or do business and spread the word there. Good luck!

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), January 05, 2002.

Down here, if the owner does not have the coggins papers at the load in chute, the on-site vet pulls a sample and the horse is marked with a yellow paint slash on its face simply meaning that the horse didn't come with the required papers. I would quarantine the new horse a long ways away from any other livestock for at least thirty days. The sale barn will keep a record of the horse you purchase so if the test turns out positive they will contact you. If not positive, you can contact the sale barn to see if they will mail the test results to you. I would have my vet redraw for the coggins when you get the horse home at the same time you have the horse checked over.

As far as drugged horses go, depends on the dosage. Some signs are: unsteadiness, glazed look in eyes, slow responsiveness, slower than normal breathing. Keep in mind that the horses that are drugged are not going to be so obvious as those kind of people do not want anyone to know what they've done. I saw two guys bring a completely wild horse off a trailer into the load in chute at a sale. The horse was rearing and falling over backwards, striking out with his front feet, and generally doing whatever he could do to kill someone and get away. I then watched the same two guys, right before ring time, put a bridle and saddle on this horse and ride him into the ring. The horse sold for a lot more money. However, after the sale, the people who bought the horse had the original crazy horse. But in the ring, the horse wasn't obviously drugged except that he was slow to respond. Be careful as you can end up with a horse that is murderous. If there are two of you going to the sale, if you watch the unloading and find an animal that you like, station the second person at the pen with the horse. Have the second person stay there the whole time and walk "with" the horse up to the ring. That person will be responsible for letting you know if anyone gave the horse anything prior to sale time. It's a hassle, but it is really the only way to be pretty sure the horse is not drugged. Most meds will have to be given within 30 to 40 minutes of ring time in order not to wear off by the time of the sale. So if someone stays with your choice from the time of unloading to the time of sale, you can be pretty sure that drugs weren't given. It is still a game of chance though as some horses will be given long acting anti-inflammatory drugs for joint ailments which can cover up lameness. One that comes to mind is 'Bute. You won't know about that kind of drug until a day or so after the sale when it wears off and the horse goes back to limping. Lots of jumpers and event horses get bute before events, however, I think now there are restrictions on useage before a show (especially the high dollar payoff shows). But if you're salvaging a horse anyway, the reason it will be at a sale is most likely it has a problem physically or mentally. Although I have known of a few really nice horses that went to the auction simply because the owners lost their jobs or got divorced and couldn't keep them anymore. It was very sad to see the people having to let them go for pretty much nothing, but the killers didn't bid on them and the auctioneer kinda steered the regular horse dealers to them. So you might find a deal like that where you can end up with a nice horse.

Be careful and good luck,

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), January 05, 2002.

Shannon, you have a beautiful heart and you are trying to a good thing. I applaud your strength and determination. From your posts on this forum I gather you have some good experience with rescues. Most of the advice here is excellent.

I hope you are able to save at least one animal to live as Nature intended. Looking forward to reading a posting of a successful venture.

-- HarleyinFL (cruisindog@juno.com), January 05, 2002.

Shannon, You have such a good heart and sweet soul. I'm glad you've decided to do this. I have rescued many horses from the auctions here, and all but one, (which I knew was lame, but took a chance on because she was so loving, and which has a good home as a companion/pet,) turned out, after sometimes LOTS of $ in vet care and extra food and sometimes LOTS of training and ALWAYS LOTS of love, to be excellent riding horses. I haven't done a draft as I didn't have the funds. One thing I could say to help is that if you phone the auction you can ask what horse meat is currently going for per pound. If they waffle, ask what it went for on average at their last sale. I have never had an auction yard not tell me. This way you can calculate the aprox. pounds of a draft breed, and know how much $ you will need. Often if the meat buyers see by you bidding that you want the horse they will stop bidding before it reaches the maximum they would want to pay to get their profit, at least they frequently have with me. If as you are bidding you see the price going up above "meat price", (good job for your friend is to have her/him watch to identify the bidders; meat buyers here usually sit down in front or stand near the ring, and often the auctioneer knows their # without them having to hold up their card,) you could stop bidding as a regular buyer may be trying to rescue the same horse. Also, don't forget that a big draft horse won't fit in a regular size trailer. The auctioneer or another regular often has a big trailer and will transport the horse home for you for a price. I would call in advance and ask if they can provide this service, how much it would be and if they need any notice. They usually don't need notice. Smart of you to take your friend. I have a hard time NOT buying something when I go to the auction so I try to only go when I have $. I would say; don't take kids. (I'm sure you wouldn't.) Guarantee you will be crying afterwards. I would be pleased and proud to give you emotional support via personal e-mail if you would like. I'm sure that your final result; healthy happy horse living at your place with a good life forever, and you knowing what he/she would have had if not for you, will feel totally worth the racking pain of your heart from what you saw. PLEASEpleaseplease let us know what happens, and I'm serious about being there for you emotionally. :) From a auction-rescue-addict. Leslie

-- Leslie in MW OR (leslie@webolium.com), January 06, 2002.

Shannon ...

Most of my many years of horse auction experience has been with auctions in the west so not as familiar with some of the things in other areas though I expect they are similar. I've been to quite a few auctions here in Kentucky now and it seems pretty much the same, although this local auction doesn't seem to have actual "killer buyers" like we saw out west ... but a LOT more backyard horse traders (which in my experience are really the worst to deal with) ... a lot more bute and tranquilizers.

Out west they had "loose horses" which were sold first, run through the ring, not led or ridden ... most of them destined to go to the killer buyers ... and any of them you could buy away from the killers with no problem. The killer buyers buy by weight although they will be bidding in total price ... they will not pay as much for a thin horse as one that is in good weight ... they are business men and know to the dollar how much they can get for a horse from the packing plant ... and it also depends on how far they have to haul them. There are only a few plants that process horse meat.

I've bought several horses from the "loose horse" part of the auction through the ring for $25 more than the killer buyers were willing to pay ... and have bought others afterwards, still in the lot, from the killer buyer, for $25 to $50 more than they paid, before they loaded them on the trucks.

The advantage to buyers with the "loose horse" process is that since most horses that are consigned to that group are obviously destined to go to the killer buyers and they are rarely give bute or tranquilized. What you see is what you get.

The disadvantage (at the time I was there at least) that horses from within the state that were going to kill plants, did not have to have a Coggins, so you had to have a Coggins drawn after you bought the horse and the horse had to stay there until the Coggins results were back ... 3 days at the time, I believe. That may have changed in the last 3 or 4 years and may be different in your area.

Over the past 20 years I've probably bought 30 or more horses out of auction rings ... and can say that I've only bought two that were serious problems. I look for specific things though and no matter how "heartbreaking" some of the situations were, I did not allow myself to get involved. If you do auctions routinely, you do have to develop a thicker skin in some instances ... or at least put a limit on the money you will spend.

If you are (or have a friend who is) knowledgeable about determining age from teeth so you don't end up with a 20+ year old that you have no hope of rehabilitating ... or serious chronic heath problems that will be prohibitively expensive ... then I can't see that you should have problem if you can stay away from the tranquilized types ... which can actually be dangerous.

The ones I've never gotten used to are the mares and foals that come through and the foals are taken off the mares right in the ring and sold separately ... the killer buyers don't want to haul a 3 day to 3 week old foal because they know many of them won't survive the haul. So they're sold off the mare to whoever buys the "cute baby" ... and often it is someone who means well but hasn't a clue ... and you know that foal isn't going to make it. I can force myself to NOT buy them, but will admit I've shed tears later over it.

-- SFM in KY (timberln@hyperaction.net), January 06, 2002.

I bought a gorgeous, but on the thin side, warmblood gelding at an auction 4 years ago. Bright chestnut, interesting blaze, 16.2 hands, just a nice looking horse, older daughter rode him and he was fine. I thought to myself, wow, youngest can show him for a year and I'll sell him at a huge profit (I should *never* listen to that little voice), I was sure that the horse was not drugged, I check for drugging by lightly touching the eyeball (at the corner) and looking for response, plus watch the ears-a drugged horse's ears will be more relaxed and may even bounce at the trot. I'm still sure he was not drugged, and he was basically sound, but he was on the thin side. Brought him home and I put probaly 150-200 lbs on him--with the added weight came ENERGY. He got 1 lb of sweetfeed, 2 quarts of beetpulp, and free choice hay, so I wasn't overdoing the high energy feed. I do believe that he was a front field hunter, or possibly an event horse in a prior life, the horse was a bundle. Youngest couldn't handle him at that time, only my oldest and I could keep a handle on him and it was a stretch for both of us especially over fences. There aren't a lot of jumper shows in my area and he was way to full of it for hunter classes. This was the sweetest horse on earth on the ground, he'd bang his hoof on the stall door if he felt he was being ignored, took your hat off and stand there with it in his mouth, just a nice horse to work around, but he was hell on wheels under saddle.

He went back to the same sale he came from... I did make a profit but not much. So, I don't take a trailer when I go to buy tack and supplements anymore, and if I see something I'm interested in I just think, "Remember Riley"

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), January 06, 2002.

In 25 years of horse auctions where I usually buy tack, I broke down and bought one paint mare (she didn't run through the sale). I refuse to even stay anymore for the actual sale of horses as I know I will want to rehab something. The paint I got was well worth the money and we enjoyed her for several years. But the heartbreak that comes with watching the babies and the oldsters go through is too much for me. One place I do go is to the registered sales though. I "met" an old friend at one of the sales in Atlanta, a 16.2 hd. Quarter Gelding, registered that I had known when he was hot stuff in the arena as a three to six year old. His selling price when he was hot? $5,000 in 1982. His selling price as an oldster, age 15? $550. Know what kind of person got him at the sale? Horse dealer who was going to resell him. The folks that brought the horse to the sale had kids there and these kids were bawling their eyes out, and I talked to the woman who said she had to sell this horse as her husband had lost his job and they had too many horses. I didn't have room at my barn for this old guy or I would have bought him right there. The point is, you can get some absolutely great deals at the high priced registered AQHA sales, especially in the winter. I have seen former show horses go through for practically nothing, less than 1000. These horses didn't even bring their stud fees. But with overbreeding, lack of willing buyers at the farms, and the general economy, the yearlings and oldsters go for less than it cost to put them on the ground. I would wonder if the registered draft sales would be the same.

It is too heartbreaking for me to go to the regular sale auctions and stay for the sales. I always leave as soon as the tack is sold or I will be upset for days afterwards. It is truly amazing the condition some of these horses are in and the look in their eyes when you go by the pen is heartwrenching. It is almost as if they are begging for someone to put them out of their misery. I am sure they all wonder what they did to end up there. Good luck and be sure to set a limit on how many horses you will bring home...there will be so many you want to help.

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), January 06, 2002.

A clarification on my post: the racetracks in Maine are for harness racing and the breed is not quarterhorse or thouroughbred, but standardbred. Standdardbreds are raced at a trot or pace while pulling their driver in a sulky. It is because they are large, fast, easy keepers who are already trained to pull that the Amish buy them for pulling thier buggies. Since most of them end their racing careers by six years old, a buyer is guarenteed a younger horse at a decent price.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), January 06, 2002.