my own trees for pole buildings?

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I need to build a large pole building. I've never even built a small pole building. I'm thinking I might make something small first, but that's another thread :)

I've looked at a couple of books on pole buildings. They seem to emphasize the need for treated wood. One said that if you use untreated cedar, it will last only ten years unless you live in a dry area. Treated wood would last 50. It went on to say that this is due to contact with the soil.

If cedar will last ten, how long will pine last? I have bull pine, white pine, tamarak and some others.

I'm in an area that gets less than 20 inches of rain per year.

What if the structure has an extended roof line (to try and keep the poles dry) and the underground part of the pole is completely encased in cement?

I'm concerned that I'm going to go to all this effort with the materials I have on hand only to have the whole thing collapse in three years. If that's a sure thing, then I'll not do it. But if the extended roof combined with cement collars will make pine last 30 years, I think it's worth the effort.

Anybody have experience with this sort of thing?

-- Paul Wheaton (paul@javaranch.com), December 13, 2001

Answers

My husband built a open sided shed and put a tarp on it just to keep boxes and stuff dry through the winter until we could get into something larger. Within about 18 months it had already started to rot. It was made out of pine saplings. We lived in east Texas at the time.

-- Ruby (mcfays451@aol.com), December 13, 2001.

I live in NC- everything rots quick here because of termites and clay soil. You pine will NOT last long at all, I am sorry to say. I built a temporary structure out of poplar- the bottoms were rotten through in under a year. Telephone ples (treated) can be had for 50 cents to 1.00 per foot- you might consider them. Or do what I did (it was cheaper this way) I built my barn and set all the framed walls on cinder blocks. The entire barn- which is 1200 sq feet cost me 528 bucks to build and that price included siding (rough cut poplar planks), most of the rafter and studs, though I did salvage all my 13 footers from someones torn down deck- and all the tin roofing, plus the 2 by 6 oak planked loft flooring. Thius puppy isnt going to rot, and it is plenty strong! You might also consider dipping the ends of the poles you use in rubberized driveway sealer- it will help preserve them, and a 5 gallon pail is only about 10 bucks.

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), December 13, 2001.

Hello Paul, I built a temporary pole barn to store my tools and materials in while building my house. I cleared a flat area in the woods of all the saplings that would be in the way of the building. There were a couple of small trees in the lines of my perimeter which I left to use as poles. I dug four post holes. One between the two trees and three on the opposite side of the trees, to make the needed post for my roof. I cut the tree tops and branches of the two trees to be the same height as the four saplings I put into the post holes. I poured concrete around the four saplings just as if they were post. The two trees and the four saplings gave me my supports for the roof. I framed out the roof with used two x fours, then nailed tin roofing to the top for my cover. I used extra saplings to tighten up the tow trees and the four saplings at the top, by laying them horizontaly and wiring them to the post.

This whole adventure cost me only time and $50.00 for the tin roofing. It has lasted me two years and I do not see any rot what so ever. The only problem I had was that the two trees grew branches and leaves, but I think they just added more character to the shed!

I live in the Ozarks and the climate here is humid. I do not know if this attributes to the lack of rot or adds to it. But, the shed is fine and right now is full of tools as well as sheetrock and panel all of which is dry and damage free.

Sincerely,

Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), December 13, 2001.


I build a 28'x 48' pole barn using my own soft maple and poplar for poles on top of concrete peers bolted to heavy angle iron embeded in the concrete. Seem to have work good. Put some wood preservative on the bottom 6" and a moisture barrier between poles and concrete. I have heared of some splicing poles with pressure treated 2" lumber glued together

-- Clod Hopper (brushfarmer@hotmail.com), December 13, 2001.

I just put up the first part (12x20') of a pole-type workshop in South-Central Tennessee, where it rains, rains and rains. Around here, most all similar buildings use large (4x6 or 6x6) beams rather than treated wood for vertical posts. Many people use rough-cut poplar although walnut cants are supposed to be the best. I chain- sawed out 6x6" white oak and hickory beams for the corner and center posts and painted a couple coats of chimney sweepings and linseed oil (abut 50:50) for the below-grade wood. Charcoal and linseed oil is also suppoed to work. I remember reading about wrapping posts in heavy gauge polyethelene also. I was advised against setting the posts in concrete because it "seems to make the wood weak." Weak in the sense that if you bump the building with heavy machinery after a few years, the beams sometimes break flush and the building moves. It still stands, just moves.

Also, I understand tamarack is very rot resistant and harder to nail than oak. I wound up using lag screws (3/8", since 5/16" snapped) and carriage bolts.

Be sure you don't make the building so wide that you can't find inexpensive rafter lumber. Around here, 12-foot rough-cut 2x4" or 2x6" poplar is about the maximum available length. My original plan was a 24x24' building, but cheap 14' rafters and roofing tin just were not available, so I had to dig some new holes. Thank God for neighbors.

My sides aren't up yet, but I will be using the thin stuff left over at the local mom-and-pop lumber mills. It goes for $10-20 a pickup load. I had planned on using bark-clad slabs, usually free, but they are just to heavy and variable in size to work with for one person.

There was a recent post on roofing with tin that I really, really wish I had seen before I started.

It seem daunting; but take it one step at a time and you will be both pleased and proud.

-- Martin Boraas (boraas@miliserv.net), December 13, 2001.



Hi Paul, The best wood you have for that type of thing is Tamarack. It has been used for fenceposts and railroad ties in this neck of the woods and my own little cabin is built on Tamarack poles set deep in the ground. By the way, this is NE Minnesota. These poles the cabin sits on show no signs of rot after 10 years but I would strongly suggest treating the below ground part of them with a good quality below ground preservative. But I think that even better would be to pour a concrete piling under where each of the poles will sit, make sure the piling goes to below the frost line in your area and use a form that will stick 8 to 12 inches out of the ground and while the cement is still wet insert an L shaped piece of flat iron 2 inches wide and one eighth inch thick in it, bottom of the L in the concrete. Make sure it is offset enough so you have room to set your pole next to it. Let that cure a week or so and keep it damp so it cures properly. Then when you set your poles you can drill a hole through the metal into the wood and either lag screw the metal to the pole or drill right on through the pole and bolt it on with a quarter to half inch bolt. That will prevent high winds from shifting your building or worse. Also make sure you put either a piece of tarpaper or aluminum between the concrete and the pole, that prevents the wood sucking up moisture from the concrete. The rest of the wood you have will work fine for the rest of the building as long as it is not in contact with wet areas. If you build it right from this point up and put on a good roof, your building will probably outlast you. That is the way I would have done it if I would have built this little cabin Im in now, but unfortunatly, somebody else built it. Well, I sure hope this helped you some and good luck with the project. Steve

-- Deb Borgia (borgia@northernnet.com), December 13, 2001.

Paul, I'd go with the treated lumber if I were building a big building. Small building, I might wing it with homegrown trees, but if you are talking a big structure, I would just be more comfortable with something that I will KNOW will last. Besides, by the time you play around with concrete and extra wide eaves, heck, you might as well have bought the treated lumber in the first place and saved the time and money for more roofing lumber.

Also, another big consideration with the bought treated posts is that they are square. And when you are 12-14' off the ground pounding 6" pole barn nails into 12" girders, you are really going to enjoy that fact. Square posts are just a heck of a lot easier to work with.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), December 13, 2001.


The best way in my experience is to pore the cement pillers and put a piece of Iron upright in the wet cement. It should have a couple of holes drilled in it. cut the cement pillers ( use construction tubes) off level about 8" above the ground. When the cement has dryed lag the poles to the iron after you set them on the pillers. If you cement them into the ground they will still rot after several years.

-- Paul (treewizard@buffalo.com), December 14, 2001.

Our first goat barn was built with our pine logs, the poles in the ground soon rotted and the barn was held up by the walls. Ironically when this barn was torn down all the bracing and ceiling joist that was our pine logs were in excellent condition. For us in East Texas its the ground water, not the rain, so an overhang would do us no good, on how fast things rot! If you are going to use this for animals, their urine also helps in the speeding up of the rot. Perhaps treat wood for the poles with ground contact? Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

PAUL.....FIRST OF ALL I`VE SEEN MENTION IN SOME TECHNICAL JOURNALS THAT THE LIFE EXPECTANCY OF A POLE BUILDING IS 20 YEARS. THE STORIES ABOUT RESISTANT WOODS TO ME IS BASICLY JUST A MYTH.CEDAR CAN SUCUME TO ROT AND TERMITES IN A FEW YEARS IN THE SOUTH. I WILL ADMIT THAT SOME WOODS ARE MORE DURABLE.BUT AS FOR BEING RESISTANT TO ROT ITS ONLY THE HEARTWOOD THAT SHOWS ANY RESISTANCE. SEEING AS MOST WOOD WOULD BE COMPOSED OF SAPWOOD THERE IN LIES THE PROBLEM.THERE IS "NO" SAPWOOD IN NORTH AMERICA THAT IS RESISTANT TO ROT. DEB...IS RIGHT ABOUT THE TAMARACK BEING DURABLE.SOME SAY IN SOME APPLICATIONS ITS BETTER THAN CEDAR.HOWEVER,THERE IS NO REAL COMMERCIAL VALUE/INTEREST IN IT BECAUSE ITS USUALLY SMALL AND TWISTED. BUT IF YOU CAN GET SOME LARGER LOGS THAT ARE STRAIGHT ...THEN O.K. THIS IS WHAT I`D DO TO TREAT THE LOGS IF I WAS GOING TO BUILD A POST BUILDING[BUT I WOULDN`T].FELL THE LOGS IN THE WINTER.PEEL THEM IN THE SPRING.NOW WHEN THE SAP STARTS FLOWING IN EARLY SPRING.I`D GET A BARREL AND PUT A MIXTURE OF

2 CUPS 20 MULE TEAM BORAX 1 GALLON HOT WATER.

SOME HOW STAND THE LOGS INTO THE BARREL AND LET THEM STAND FOR A FEW DAYS.[YOU ONLY HAVE TO DO THE THICKER BOTTOMS THAT WILL BE THE BASES] WHEN LOGS ARE GREEN....BORAX IS ABSORBED RIGHT INTO THE CORE OF THE WOOD.THE TREE MIGHT HELP ABSORB THE SOLUTION AS IT IS TRYING TO FIND NURISHMENT.IT WOULD TAKE TWO YEARS FOR THE LOGS TO PROPERLY SEASON.TO BECOME AIR DRIED.KEEP TOUCHING UP THE LOGS WITH THE BORATE SOLUTION THROUGHT THE ENTIRE LENGTH BUT CONCENTRATE ON THE BOTTOM END GRAIN AND THE FIRST TWO FEET. THE REASON YOU HAVE TO DRY THE LOGS IS TO GET THE MOISTURE CONTENT DOWN.THE BEST YOU CAN EXPECT WILL VARY FROM 10-15% ON THE AVERAGE.WOOD ROTS WHEN IT REACHES 19%+.IF YOU USED GREEN LOGS WHICH WOULD BE WELL OVER THE 19% MARK YOU ARE JUST ASKING FOR TROUBLE. ENCASING THE LOGS IN CONCRETE WILL CAUSE PROBLEMS. THE CONCRETE IS MOISTURE PERMIABLE AND WILL ALLOW WATER TO REACH THE LOGS. [A]THIS WILL CAUSE THE LOGS TO ROT [B]THE LOGS WILL SWELL AND CRACK THE CONCRETE.

SO BUILD ON CONCRETE PIERS AND DO PUT A VAPOUR BARRIER SO THE MOISTURE DOESN`T WICK UP INTO THE LOG.AND THE SUGGESTIONS ABOUT THE ANCHORS WERE A GOOD IDEA.

NOW IF I WAS SERIOUS ABOUT BUILDING A POLE STRUCTURE I`D TRY AND GET A BRAZILIAN LOG.ITS CAUSED PAO LOPE ITS THE GREATEST. [1]IT CAN LAST 50 YEARS ON THE GROUND IN BRAZIL. [2]ITS DENSE AND NEARLY IMPERVIOUS TO WATER [3]HIGHEST RATING FOR TERMITE RESISTANCE [4]RESISTANT TO SHRINKAGE [5]RESISTANT TO SPLINTERING [6]RESISTANT TO TWISTING [7]RESISTANT TO CHECKING. [8]DOESN`T REQUIRE ANY PRESERVATIVE

SEEING AS YOU ONLY NEED A MINIMUM NUMBER OF POLES IT MIGHT BE FEASEABLE TO BUY THEM.I`D LOVE TO BUILD MY CORDWOOD COTTAGE WITH THEM BUT THAT WOULD REQUIRE 20 CORDS.I`VE SEEN REFERENCES TO IT BEING SOLD IN THE USA.BUT NOT IN CANADA....UNFORTUNATELY.

CORDWOODGUY

-- CORDWOODGUY (cordwoodguy@n2teaching.com), December 14, 2001.



The downside with the cement pillar approach is that I then need to work in some architecture that will keep the building upright - such as cross braces or walls. With true poles, the poles provide all the "upright" strength I need.

I had not considered the animal urine in the structure. That would certainly lead to rot.

I had also not considered that the cement would wick water to the log.

I was hoping to get some poles that would not have the toxic gick that makes them last so long. But it sounds like the best thing to do is to research the gick and figure out what is the least toxic.

The green lumber encased in cement is another point I had not considered.

Square vs. round: I like the look of the round better and am willing to take on the extra work involved in working with it.

This has been excellent feedback. I love this forum!

For this particular structure, I definitely want to bury the poles. I want to have the look of a few huge logs sticking out of the ground, a roof, and no cross supports. But I was thinking of using a pole technique for other, smaller structures, but I think that the concrete pillar will be better for those.

Thanks everybody!

-- Paul Wheaton (paul@javaranch.com), December 14, 2001.


Paul, Tamarak poles should make a great pole building! There are products available for treating fence posts. (Tamarak also makes excellent posts). Usually, the bottoms of the posts are put into a barrel of the treat, and left to soak for a while. You could use the same idea for building poles. This is not quite as good as pressure treated, but it may be your best alternative. Treated tamarak fence posts will last for years and years before needing to be replaced. There are lots of pole buildings here (North Central Idaho) built just that way.

-- Marv (mcheim@lewiston.com), December 15, 2001.

It's a sure thing. The whole thing will collapse in way short of 3 years. Locust will last for 100 years in wet climate (Arkansas). It grows around creeks. The telephone pole concept is a good idea, as well, if you can't get locust. Good luck. I'm fixing to build a strawbale house on telephone posts.

-- L. Turner (laturner@cswnet.com), December 17, 2001.

I was in a polebarn last week that had some locust poles. Those that were'nt locust were rotted away but the locust stood strong. This barn I'm guessing, is over 80 years old. Other good options are walnut, sassafras, osage orange, and the white oaks. Years ago I built a poleshed with telephone poles and I will regret it untill I replace them. Good luck, OAK

-- OAK (StrugglingOak@aol.com), December 17, 2001.

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