After a long debate with the local's I've decided to bring the question to the knowledgeable here. "What is the best pocket gun?" So far I've been advised that the bigger the better.

Somehow I've always thought that the only gun that'll save you is the one on you when you need it. My neighbor swears by his Walther ppk in 32-auto, my brother thinks in terms of a Springfield 1911 .45 auto, My wife is partial to a Feg .380. Me I like a Colt Gov. Mod 380 or S&W 38-snub. The local preacher carries a Davis Arms Derringer in 32-auto. One of my brothers co-workers still carries a FIE 25-auto. That's a pretty big difference in calibers.

So What do you think is the best pocket gun? Why?

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 03, 2001

Answers

Boy i like your preacher,now brother do you belive as he whips out his pistol.lol the dang devil is after me again.Bob se,ks.

-- Bobco (bobco@kans.com), December 03, 2001.

heheheh Bob, nah he don't have to pull it anymore! LOL :o)

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 03, 2001.

whatever comfortable carrying gun you're most accurate with. Also, firepower is nice but speed and shot placement count for more. Try concealing a 1911 .45 wearing shorts and a t-shirt without imprints on your clothes. Weight is a factor also if you're wearing it all day. A 1911 .45 isn't the safest to carry with a round in the chamber either. I prefer a sa/da with decocker for carry guns. I have a S&W 4506 .45 like that but it's too bulky to carry. My carry gun is a .380 Astra Constable II with 90gr Starfire JHP.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 03, 2001.

I've heard this as being true, not for sure, but the good ole 22 caliber accounts for more fatalalities than all other calibers- the bullet is especially lethal at close range due to the richote factor once inside. I hunt with a 22 caliber rifle (deer). I dont think caliber has much to do with the best handgun/ other gun- you have to be super comfortable with whatever it is and know its capacity and limitations

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), December 03, 2001.

Gee, Kevin, I don't know. If you're saying .22 calibre centrefire (say .223), then maybe. I've hunted deer-sized animals (kangaroos) with a .22 rimfire when I was young, and none of them got away, but I passed up a lot more shots than I made; and you can learn a lot running a mile or more after a slightly-wounded animal (that can travel at 40 kilometres per hour) to take your second shot. I wouldn't do it these days - I wouldn't survive it these days, but it's a moral obligation not to leave a wounded animal to suffer.

As for pistols, I can't talk from personal experience - I don't do pistols, and it's difficult in Australia. That's part of your answer - I live in a country where you don't NEED firearms to protect yourself (truly - despite the propaganda, the USA is different). However, as regulars will know, I strongly believe firearms (longarms) are essential tools for anyone involved with livestock, and most people involved with crops. I can also appreciate the value of having a firearm right there on your belt when you need it - I never have, but I can appreciate it. For sure, if I lived in the USA I'd carry firearms - you have many more firearms out in the population and available to the bad guys than anywhere else.

From my reading, if I lived there, I'd be interested in a couple of different pistols to start with. One would be the Beretta tip- barrels - probably .32 calibre. With the right ammunition the .32 can still be useful, even if fairly low-powered; and the tip barrel makes it easier for aging folk to use (not NOW, but my parents might visit) - you don't need to rack a slide to cock it - just put a cartridge in the breech, then close it up. It's a compact size - not as small as the Seecamp, but not far off it either, and a lot cheaper, and a lot easier to hold.

The other pistol I'd consider is a second-hand .357 or .38 Special revolver. Many of them still available because of surplus sales from police departments. Revolvers are damn near (dare I say it?) bulletproof as far as reliability goes - leave them in a drawer for five years, then scramble them around in a sand-pit, then pull the trigger, and they'll go bang. A .357 Magnum is effectively a super 9mm, a .38 special is a bit down-scale but still in the same class. You can do all the practice you need with .38 specials, but leave the pistols loaded with .357 or P+P ammo when you don't expect to, but may, need it. If you can't win the (individual) war in 5 shots, it's because you've lost it. Still carry a speed-loader for safety's sake. Reliability in getting off the first and second shot is a lot more important than having an eleventh shot in reserve.

-- Don Armstrong (from Australia) (darmst@yahoo.com.au), December 04, 2001.

As Dave said, Whatever gun your comfortable with. Its also going to depend on what you plan on doing with the gun. Carry gun? Night stand protection gun? Whats are you protecting yourself from? If you live in a neighborhood full of speed freaks then your little 32 isnt going to do much, Heck even a 45 might not even do it. If you live in an area were the sight of a gun is going to do more than firing it then maybe a ppk will work. If your carrying, then conceilment is important, YOu 1911 doesnt hide well in todays casual dressed world.

Also need to look at who's doing the shooting? I really doubt my grandmother is going to do much good with a 1911 due to its weight and kick, but a small 32 or 22 would get her point across.

-- Gary (gws@columbus.rr.com), December 04, 2001.

If I had plenty of money to spend, one of the mini Glocks would be an excellent pistol to carry around ones person with minimal bulk.

But . . .

Since I'm pretty near broke, I carry my Star PD .45 on my belt when on the ranch. Weighs near 25 oz., but has a six round clip; enough for any anticipated trouble. Not that I am looking for it.

For a pocket pistol though, I carry an old Erma-Excam RX-22 .22lr pistol, a clone of the Walther PPK. I never know it is there, but it shoots better than I can hold.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), December 04, 2001.

j.r. the Erma-Excam RX-22 .22lr pistol, a clone of the Walther PPK sounds good. Will it handle ammo like Stingers and Aguila SSS 60 grain 22LR? I had a Llama model IV that said not to shoot stingers in it. (wish I had it back)

For this thread I guess I was thinking about personal protection against 2 legged creatures as well as snakes, starving wild dogs, rabie carrying cats, etc.

I like to hear opinions outside of our little community on topics like this.

Thanks.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

I purchased a Ruger P-95 in September and love it. Ruger is offering a $40 Rebate on all of their P series pistols. The P-95 is a 9mm. It is comfortable to shoot and so far is quite accurate. It is not really a pocket gun, but it is inexpensive (Got it on sale for $263 and then got the $40 rebate), durable, very comfortable to shoot, and you can get really cheap ammo ($11 for a hundred rounds at Walmart).

-- Scott (scotthom@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

As Dave had mentioned earlier, the compromise is picking a pistol or revolver that you can carry COMFORTABLY all day long. After a while, I imagine most full size guns get left behind and the 'mouse' guns, as called by gun guru Jeff Cooper, start looking attractive. They just tend to stay more out of the way.

Kenneth, it sounds like your wife and yourself are already pretty well equipped; the .380 at close range, especially with hollow points, I imagine makes good defensive weapon. What I especially like about this class of weapon is that if you are forced to fire indoors, the .380 range load is loud. The .357 Magnum load is REAL LOUD. As in permanent hearing loss.

My house gun is a Bersa .380; I don't feel I need more than that. My wife, who is not a longtime shooter, can rack the slide by extending both arms, one gripping the slide, the other the grip, and 'rocking' her shoulder, thus racking the slide easily. The elderly can use the same method to rack a slide if they don't possess the muscular strength.

As for the Erma pistol, yeah, I like it a lot. I wish they still sold it, but I occassionally run into a model at gun shows. Good understudy for your wife's FEG. Have a good day.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), December 04, 2001.

wow! sounds like you guys live in a dangerous world. Up here in the canadian rockies, now that I don't hunt anymore, I don't have a gun. While we have lots of bears, cougars, lynx and coyotes, I feel safe enough with a can of bear spray on my belt at all times. Good for 4 legged critters and 2 legged as well. No permit- no hassle. l3 years here now and no problem. Paper work and cost make it more trouble to own a gun than its worth, for me. I do sometimes evvy you your freedom to have all these guns, would really like it for a hobby.

-- tomas (bakerzee@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

For size, comfort and the reliability only a revolver can offer I'm looking at the Smith and Wesson Ultralight .357 Magnum/.38 Special +P models. At just over 6" overall length and weighing in at only 12 ounces, I think they're a perfect concealed carry piece for personal protection. Even with the larger grip I need for my hand it still fits in the front pocket of a pair of blue jeans comfortably and meets the "totally concealed" standard here. I know I may be spending a little more for the S & W logo and don't care. I'm not going to try to save a buck on something I might call on to save my life some day. I hope this helps.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), December 05, 2001.

have you shot one of those Ultralights yet? They're a nice well built gun but you may find it a bit slower on target aquisition for follow up shots because of the light weight. I have a stainless S&W 686 .357 6" that's been modified a bit. Mostly use .38 in it because plinking with .357 will wear on you quick. j.r. made a very good point about the sound level, 2 shots without protection and I had a severe earache that lasted all day. My .380 doesn't bother me although you should always use ear protection.

I think all things considered the PPK or any of the similar makes in .380 or a 9mm S&W Ladysmith with whatever jhp the gun prefers makes a great concealable pocket gun.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 05, 2001.

I know a lady that went to her office at 7:00 p.m. at night. When she turned on the lights she was attacked by an intruder. Her Beretta Tomcat 32-auto was all that saved her. Her Office is downtown and on the "good side" of town. According to the latest reports by our Government the odds of a violent encounter has risen to 1 in 3. Rapes are up, house breaking/entering are up 35%, robbery in mall parking lots are at an all time high. I know some here live in very small towns. Maybe it's safe where you are. I thought here in our small town it was safe. This year we've had 17 murders, 100 robberys, 45 rapes and over 300 assaults. That's in a town with population less than 10,000. To me thats scary.

Taurus model 85 in 38-special is a good one too. I guess a 22 or 25 is better than nothing. I read once that "The west was wild, guns are tools and a fool and his money are soon parted" Guess things ain't really changed that much. :o)

I saw a post some time back that said "A armed society is a polite society" (forget who made the quote) My wife insist that knowing your neighbors, getting involved in your county activities is one way to increase your safety factor. Course she still believes in Santa Clause. :o)

It's 42 degrees and looks like rain. Have a great day.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 05, 2001.

Dave, I'm a little confused. How is it that a barrel for a .357 caliber can deliver a .38? Isn't that significantly fatter?

-- Audie (paxtours@alaska.net), December 05, 2001.

No, they are the same diameter. .38 special caliber is also .357 diameter. The only difference between .38 special ammo and .357 ammo is the 357 has a longer case. A .357 gun can shoot either .38 or .357. A .38 gun can't shoot .357 because the shell case is longer than the cylinder.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 05, 2001.

Kenneth, that is scary. Is your town part of a larger metro area or something? 17 murders in a less than 10k population town sounds real extreme. What is the reason for that?

I've been in the greater Los Angeles area for about 2 years now. It's fairly quiet out here, better than when I lived around Philly. The bad part here is my county and none of the others around L.A. issue CCW permits. Other states I lived in it was a simple matter to obtain one. You can't buy ammo in Los Angeles county without showing i.d. I also had to leave a few guns out of state when I moved here because they are banned in California. You can carry an unloaded firearm in your vehicle in a locked case, that's about as close to carrying for protection as it gets.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 05, 2001.

Hi Dave, Nope were just a rural small town. I guess the Big City crowd are moving here and bring their ways with them. We have the highest unemployment rate in the state. In the past few months we've lost 6 major factories.

IMHO I do not think America is ready for another Depression. People just don't care about their neighbors. Hence another reason to think about self-protection.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 05, 2001.

Dave, I've not fired one of the Ultralights but sure will before I lay out over $500 for one. I'm not sure what you mean by difficulty in target acquisition on a second shot. I don't want to turn this thread into 'Handgun 101' here so if you want to email me, feel free to do so. Thanks.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), December 05, 2001.

Gary, I'd say that Dave is implying that the Ultralight is going to be massively affected by the very VERY VERY!!! substantial recoil of the .357 . You can imagine your own improper metaphors from there, but the fact is you'd have to haul it a long way back to re-acquire the target for your second shot.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), December 06, 2001.

Yep, I think Dave and Don are right . . . a 12 ounce .357 magnum sounds like a hard thing to control, especially when attempting to fire multiple shots. In the same vein that those pistol grip equipped shotguns work.

I fired one in 12 gauge a long time ago. Once. I don't care to repeat the experience; even when braced for it, the pain in my wrist was very intense. The 20 gauge model is okay, just be sure that you have very stable control of the slide of the shotgun before you fire it.

Being afraid to fire the weapon sure will cut down on your practice with it. Just another opinion.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), December 06, 2001.

I have a carry permiint but my Belly gun stays in my truck, S&W stainless, 5 shot chief's Special, .38 special +P hammerless. It fits in the back pocket of my 501s.

-- hendo (redgate@echoweb.net), December 06, 2001.

yeah those pistol grips for shotguns look like a good idea, until you fire one. I had a friend hand me his to try out after he put a 3" magnum in it. One time was enough for me.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 06, 2001.

Gary in Indiana Go ahead IMHO if you have information that can save the guy $500 and misery Share it with him. Call it handgun 101 or Homesteader saves friend $$$$$ either way Thats one of the purposes of this forum.

I have shot my buddy's S&W 37 airweight 38 with +p ammo. It ain't no fun. So I can imagine the recoil on a 12oz 357. (OUCH!)

I got an email from a lady that said she and her daughter prefered a Beretta Bobcat in 22LR for protection. From the data she sent I'd say she was well informed. I might have to rethink the ole reliable .22LR. I remember way back it was always fun to shoot the .22 high-standard 9-shot. (not apocket gun by any means..but fun)

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 06, 2001.

I say again, I don't do pistols, so I'm talking from what I've heard or read, rather than personal experience. I understand that the .22 rimfire is the Knesset's favoured pistol (Israeli Secret Service). A lot of that is because the firearms are compact and concealable, you can find ammunition for it anywhere and everywhere, and the ammunition is not identifiably for a pistol. However, it sure wouldn't be a guaranteed one-shot knockdown. Kill them - yes; but it could be quite a few tens of seconds between when you made the fatal shot, and when it had the desired effect. This is where the Knesset's aims and your's could diverge. I'd try for something bigger (and the .32 Silvertip is the first that statistics show you can feel fairly comfortable relying on). If I had to use something smaller, I'd practice what I think Jeff Cooper calls the Nicaraguan drill. In fact, he recommends it for any handgun - even his beloved .45's. Anyway, it arose out of someone who was shot dead, but wouldn't stop coming - high on (perhaps) adrenaline. The Nicaraguan drill is three rapid shots - two to the torso, which should hopefully knock someone back and kill them; followed by one to the head. If they're wearing armour (or they're just got their prayer book and a tobacco tin in their shirt pockets, or they're heavily muscled or very fat and wearing an overcoat and a vest), the first two shots should still knock them back and slow them, and the one to the head will finish the job. I'd think if you were depending on a .22 (or a .25) you'd want to practice that real assiduously.

-- Don Armstrong (from Australia) (darmst@yahoo.com.au), December 06, 2001.

one reason I'd avoid .22 for a defensive gun is in autos they occasionally jam or fail to extract and stovepipe the next round. I don't think it's so much the gun as is it the design of the ammo because I've had it happen in high end .22 pistols at times. I've seen it happen too many times with even a good .22 auto pistol and high quality .22 ammo to feel that I could depend on one for defense. I guess if you used a .22 revolver with a shortened barrel you could avoid the problem.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 07, 2001.

Hate to break it to you guys, but the way .22LR claims most of the people it kills is by septic shock, several days later. Hardly what you want to stop an attacker.

I have a couple of mouse guns (novelties); the smallest gun that I routinely carry is a Glock 26 stoked with cor-bon. And yes, I carry it just about all the time (when I'm not carrying something more substantial, that is).

By the way, the person who previously mentioned the Nicaragua Drill might be interested to know that its proper name is the Mozambique Drill. Further information at: http://www.downzero.com/MovingUp/drills_mozambique.htm

KYPD...

-- Anonymous Coward (somebody@somewhere-else.com), January 24, 2002.

I just noticed that there aren't any women on this thread. I can't be the only one that has a gun for protection. I have a .357 in the bedroom and my handy 20 gauge shotgun near the back door. I also have a 30-30 and a 247 for deer season. I practice with these often to keep comfortable with them. If I need one in the middle of the night, I want to be able to load it in the dark. Best wishes!

-- cowgirlone in OK (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), January 25, 2002.

Women don't seem to find the need to talk about their toys like men do. The length, diameter, speed of things is definetly a mans thing. Women care that they work when we go to use them. ;) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 25, 2002.

LOL!! You're right Vicky!!

-- cowgirlone in OK (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), January 25, 2002.

I am a minister, and a realist with a life I cherish and a wife and family I love. I carry one of several guns: an SMC-380, a FEG P9R Parabellum, a Smith&Wesson 357 Magnum, or a Beretta 21A .22 cal. semiautomatic. It all depends on the weather and my clothing.

I have owned guns since I was a boy and bought my first Ithaca .22 rifle. When I studied for the ministry, I rode with cops in Texas and got a slice of life.

All things considered, I prefer my 380 for concealed carry. It is small enough to hide under almost anything, even fit in my pocket; yet it is a respectable weapon when loaded with personal protection rounds. Like many others, I'm not eager to use it on anyone; but if someone makes it a choice between my life and his, may God have mercy on his soul.

-- Robert Simms (rfsimms@mindspring.com), March 22, 2002.