Forum Policy on Religious Threads/Posts

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Forum Policy on Religion (and Politics) (Religion)

Many forums do not allow any mention of religion or politics. However, we do not want to go that far. We fully recognize for some people their religion (or politics) is as much a part of their homesteading as having livestock and gardening. The question is how to strike a happy medium?

Annie Miller posted this against a thread recently and it pretty well sums up the position we intend to take on both religion and politics.

"I understand the need for some guidelines, especially about religion. A thread can contain references to a religious belief and why they feel this way, but the thread should not be just about a religious statement, without a context around it pertaining to the needs of a homesteader, that is what CS is all about. You can discuss religion as it pertains to homesteading, but not just religious things per se. And why is this distasteful to some? There are plenty of singularly religious forums out there to satisfy everyone…"

In short, the forum moderators will not allow threads or posts against threads which seek to proselytize or witness (including using Biblical quotes to try to support a viewpoint). Also subject to being deleted are posts which are outright attacks on the position or beliefs of another. We simply will not allow the forum to degrade back to when ranting and raving about everything and anything was the norm.

There are now off-shoot forums where these are far more likely to be allowed.

This is a forum about homesteading as expressed in the Countryside Philosophy contained in the front of each issue and on the Countryside Web Site’s home page. Thus, please keep threads and posts at least reasonably homesteading-related.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 26, 2001

Answers

I agree that since this is a homesteading forum the content of the posts should be of some assemblence to homesteading; however, if religious/policitcal posts have to contain some sort of reference to homesteading then why shouldn't the same rules apply to ALL posts. There are bunches of posts from everything from computer questions (why not take that those to a computer related site???) to all sorts of posts about the WTC disaster and raising money (should these go to the sites and forums related to that???). I just can't see the differance and why the rules don't apply to them.

Ken, I know you have a tough job here and your doing the best you can and you can't please everyone; however, I don't understand why you or anyone else should be so threatened by religious comments. Just ignor them! If someone gets mad and leaves...so what??? Gosh, there are enough people here to keep this forum going forever that are adult enough to take what they can use and discard the rest. Those that just can't play well with others---who cares then if they leave?

Only my opinion and this is America yet so don't everyone go nuts on me!

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), September 26, 2001.


Also subject to being deleted are posts which are outright attacks on the position or beliefs of another.

Ken, does this include people of other belief systems making negative comments about Christians or Christian beliefs?
For my part, I don't think the forum is a cozy and familiar as it used to be. True, there are other forums where mostly religious (or mostly non Christian) people post, but it is simply more interesting and more stimulating to discuss a subject from several points of view. It can be a little dull when everyone agrees! I didn't care for homesteading threads being overridden by obnoxious proselytizing but a simple, brief comment on one's religious viewpoint or position didn't bug me as long as it related to the subject of the thread somehow. Purely religious threads didn't bug me either. If they weren't interesting, nobody's forcing me to click and open that thread every time I come to the forum! True, they weren't specifically about homesteading, but they were about homesteaders. Many, many homesteaders that I have met have said that they moved to the country because of their religious convictions. Thus, even a thread about 'Why did you move to the country' would now be problematic.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), September 26, 2001.


Karen: I agree there have been threads on the forum recently which might not have been allowed prior to September 11th. It was an extra- ordinary event and needs to be taken as such.

Rebekah: You are welcome to suggest other words to indicate the intent of allowing religion references as long as they are reasonably homesteading related and which do not either proselytize or witness. I doubt delete a thread which said the reason someone moved to the country was because they were Druids who worshiped, whoever or whatever the Druids worship, in the nude.

Personally I was raised Catholic. I was a devote Catholic (altarboy three masses in a row on Sundays). However, once I went into the Navy it was really the first time I was exposed to other religions and philosophies and realized the Catholic Church didn't have a lock on how a 'God' should be worshiped or admired. For some a 'God' is a Supreme Being who directly controls every aspect of their lives and will determine how they spend their afterlife. For others 'God' is a strong respect for what is commonly called 'Nature' and when we die our body eventually rejoins the Earth. Interestingly, the Catholic Church has moved more to my philosophy than my rejoining theirs.

As I have said before, neither Dave or I are anti-Christian. We are just trying to keep the forum in balance and encourage tolerance of other veiwpoints.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 26, 2001.


The policy discussed above seems more than fair Ken and Dave.

If the religious comments reflect on homesteading events, then it is allowed to stay in. If comments reflect on a personal philosophy, then a judgement call should be allowed. Outright religious comments with no regard to homesteading, delete. Religious attacks, delete. Seems fair. Forward . . . march!

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), September 26, 2001.


We ran into a similiar problem on an IRC channel on Undernet (#wicca)- -there, like here, someone "owned" the channel (i.e., was the person to register it), that person made rules (no bashing of others, or *other religions*, for a few examples). Some of these rules I did not like (not the ones mentioned). I basically had two choices-- either suck it up, and follow the rules, or leave. I stayed and learned to stay within Scire's (the owner of the channel) guidelines-- I think the choices apply to here as well. We can agree to stick to the rules as set forth, or. . .we all know the other choice. The rules aren't that hard to follow, and it's our choice to do so :) I think the helpfulness of this forum far outweighs any "disadvantages" the rules might pose. I mean, he could just as easily say "no use of adjectives!"--at least the ones he is saying are logical, have a purpose (mostly to keep flame wars from happening, I believe), and are reasonable in my opinion.
Now I get to go post my egg question!

-- Brendan K Callahan (Grinnell, IA) (sleeping@iowatelecom.net), September 26, 2001.


Ken,

I, too, was an altar boy. In fact, I was what was known as a 'triple-dipper' at my grade school (altar boy, choir boy and patrol boy [in the days when girls couldn't be crossing guards]).

In the spirit of one old altar boy to another, I'd like to apologize for being the original poster of what's likely the thread that has prompted all of this (Robertson & Falwell know who to blame?). It was never my intention to start a religious war here at all. I only thought it was something that might be of general interest as much of the news media had already picked up on it.

Much like the 9-11 atrocity, while it was not directly related to homesteading I felt it was something which transcended all aspects of our lives. While I believe that thread has recently been deleted, if you happen to have a copy or way to read my original post I believe you'll find I simply posted the quotes and asked if anyone else had any thoughts. I took no position on the issue one way or the other.

I had also posted a couple of other things recently which were also not homesteading related in much the same vein. One was 'Letter from an Afghan' which I believe was of general interest for the same reason. It came from the same source as the Robertson-Falwell post. The other was 'Dr. Seuss Strikes Back' which I received as an email and credited as such not knowing the actual origin.

Rest assured I'll be more cautious in the future about posting anything here which might start an argument like that. Ironically, the biggest dispute in which I've been involved here was on a post which WAS, at least in my opinion, homestead related (Going to a tax sale...). It's now archived under 'Land' and if you review it you'll find I took some rather personal attacks on that one. I'm not asking you or anyone else to have done anything about it as I'm always happy to defend any position I take. I just couldn't resist commenting about that in the light of this.

In any event, I'd like to thank you along with anyone and everyone who has made and continues to make this forum what it is to me.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), September 26, 2001.


Gary:

Yup, when I returned back home and did housekeeping for the forum the thread on Jerry Farwell... did get deleted. I would have done so if I was here at the time. Just didn't seem related to the general discussion about the consequences of the WTC, etc. event. Heck, people accuse us of being 'anti-Christian' and here I go deleting a thread which some may have considered an attack against Christianity, at least as Jerry Farwell, et al, see it.

I can't speak for Dave, but I try to manage the forum by exception. I do look at each new thread. But with 100, or perhaps many more, posts against existing threads a day, I normally don't look at the responses. When someone submits a concern I do.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 26, 2001.


Ken, do you honestly think all this housekeeping is making this forum better? You have to notice that none of the original posters are regulars anymore. When we used to discuss or fight about religion or politics, it used to blow over. The forum was much more chatty. I think the more rules and deletions that are made the worse it has gotten. There were far worse threads back 2 years ago in the archives, than anything that was deleted now. I see no good that has come from the police state you have let the whiners transform this forum into, and I really do think it is a very small amount of whiners who are responsible for this, and how many of them Ken are still posting? I do appreciate the effort that your work must take, but other than the archives, which I still insist after answering yet the same question on the goat thread for at least the 10th time, that nobody uses them, but I just don't see how this constant editing of our threads is doing anything. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 26, 2001.

I must be pretty dense, but I still don't get it. So what if we disagree? What is the problem with that. So what if the discussion gets heated over religion? What's the worst that will happen anyway? Someone blows up thier computer? I don't understand what the big deal is. Look at how heated it got with the "Walt and Gladys" thing. No one hired a hit man for any of the posters! We all just got over it eventially.

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), September 26, 2001.

Karen, you make a good point! Unfortunately, awhile back this forum got rather ugly. It got so I was not even coming here for a bit. I guess that Ken and Dave are trying to prevent that.

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), September 26, 2001.


Vicki, you're still here; I'm still here; Rebekah is still here; John Leake drops by, etc. Gee, even Kathleen Sanderson posted recently. There's lots of old timers here; just not participating as much.

It did use to be interesting back in the "olden days" when folks could disagree (even vehemently) and still carry on. Since it got SO ugly last February, I pretty much gave up posting at all and took off for Beyond the Sidewalks. I still lurked here, though. Now I'm back a little more b/c the times require it! I need the homestead information more than ever.

The newer posters seem thoughtful and polite for the most part (from what I have read, which I guess isn't all that much...) I haven't seen too much nasty stuff (but then maybe it gets deleted before I see it!)

I personally will not post political or religious stuff here anymore. I tried to answer a prayer request, and the thread got deleted...oops! Guess I needed reminding.

I don't care what you all decide to do as long as you *keep* posting the homestead stuff! I'm too busy to read most of the rest of the threads anyway...like right now (I'm putting up green beans and running into the office in between blanching batches to check the forum! Sheesh!)

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), September 26, 2001.


Only my opinion but, if the subject of religion comes up and you are opposed to discussing it, then don't open and read the question or answers. However, if we discuss any of the current events, we are smack dab in the middle of religion. Some people may view religion like I view goats. I've never had one, don't plan to get one, not interested in the goat questions and therefore don't have any goat answers. Just not interested (at this time). I have nothing against people who love and raise goats. And I am certainly not offended by those who want to talk about them.

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), September 26, 2001.

Yes, I'm still here, but it just isn't as much fun anymore. The main reason I still come is in case new homesteaders have any goat questions or problems. The days when we would all get together and talk about our views and philosophies on things are pretty well over and somehow, it just doen't feel as friendly and cozy as it used to be. Sure, we disagreed, but we got over it most of the time. 'Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end.....'

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), September 26, 2001.

Yup, I kinda miss it too sometimes, the way it used to be, but because its grown so much and there are so many more folks here I can see how religious and political topics could become so fractious and disruptive that little else would be accomplished.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), September 26, 2001.

Ken, I too apologize for being in this religious war that has been going on for the last few days. But when somebody post a thread that reads "Any anti-christions, atheist, etc.etc.etc, here? Well when I read something like that it automatically sparks a war for me. Maybe I shouldn't have read some of the responses that was sent in. But I feel it is my God given duty to take up for him. I will die for him if I have to. To me it just seems like the negative things against religion doesn't get deleted as fast as the positive things for religion do. Somebody can be bashing the christians and everybody gets a chance to read it and leave their input. But if we type a prayer in for someone who asked for one, BAM! it gets deleted in no time.

-- r.h. in okla. (rhays@sstelco.com), September 27, 2001.


r.h.

There is not an absolute prohibition against prayer requests on the forum, just the manner in which they can be entered. As previously stated, a prayer request as an individual thread is not permitted. If it is submitted as a post against an existing thread, using the weekly Over the Fence Chat thread as an example, it will stay. The reason for this policy was at one time prayer requests were being made on a regular basis. This is a forum on homesteading and they didn't seem directly related. The policy was a compromise on how they can still be permitted. And, remember, a compromise seldom satisfies any of the parties involved.

If you want to close a post with a religious reference, we don't have a problem with it. An example is something like, "May God bless you and all of yours." or whatever one might use in their normal correspondence. We didn't have a problem with Hoot closing his stories with a brief religion-related statement and Bibical reference. It was only when he submitted a thread asking people to make a show of hands on who will be saved the problem occurred. Hoot would be welcomed back as long as he stays within the guidelines for the forum.

When folks say it just isn't the forum as it use to be, they are probably right. However, there is a difference between when the forum had a small core group who got to know each other fairly well and now. I have no idea on the number of current participants, but do know there has now been well over 100,000 post against the forum. Like most everything else, the larger you grow, the more structure is needed.

Plus at that time the Countryside Forum, at least on Greenspun/Lucenet, was the only game in town. Now there are several off-shoot forums on which religious/political/social, etc. issues can be discussed in depth. Thus, there are alternatives.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 27, 2001.


Ok, now there is a thread about a lady who had to strip down to her panties for a doctors exam. We can't talk religion but that has to do about homesteading??? Go figure!!

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), September 27, 2001.

Ken,

Yes, there are alternate forums; however, they lack one major ingredient if you are determined to preach and that is lack of audience size. Countryside by its very success has become (for quite awhile now) a very attractive place to post knowing there is a large readership. I agree with the policy of restrictions that have been put in place.

As to the comment about length of time a banned post may remain, I expect it has a direct bearing on your amount of time spent monitoring this forum. I think your efforts are appreciated by most. Now if you could just give up all life you have outside this forum, stop eating and sleeping THEN you could monitor EVERYTHING 24/7. :>)

-- Joe (CactusJoe001@AOL.com), September 27, 2001.


I have no problem with religious threads. I don't open them! :^)

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), September 27, 2001.

Ken I was wondering if you were gone! I hadn't noticed you posting and judging from some of the things that were posted and allowed to remain I had a feeling you weren't monitoring the forum. I also agree that inflammatory type posts should not be allowed, but please apply to all types of reliious post not just Christian ones. thanks for all of your work.

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), September 27, 2001.

I agree with the forum policy. Back when the problems arose, just about ALL posts were for the religious and political wars here. There was cussing, name calling and just very rude uncalled for behavior from the posters. Very little was being posted about homesteading at that time. As I see it, Ken and Dave didn't do it, the posters slamming and cussing each other did it. And if a post got deleted, then 5 more posts came up whining about it. On and on and on and on. Ken and Dave had no choice but to take back the forum for what it was intended to be in the first place.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), September 27, 2001.

Well said, Cindy!

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

To the person who asked about why we allow computer questions and the like (why not take it to a computer forum), I would have to say for the same reason we allow tractor questions and chicken questions without directing the poster to tracto and chicken forums - computers have become an integral part of many homesteads (and obviously everyone here on the forum has one, or has access to one frequently enough to post) and it is often as vital a tool as a tractor or a milker. Ergo, keeping your computer running is as homestead related as keeping your tractor running.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

Wow, I feel like the fellow who walks in as they're carrying out the bodies from the bar-room brawl...glad I missed it but like any good car wreck it piques one's interest. I'm surprised that the usual erudite and good natured posting on this forum would get so out of hand. Thanks Ken, I wouldn't want to be the one to stop the brawl, I'm just glad to have such a fun forum to visit...

praise allah and jah and all that stuff...gilly

-- gilly (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), September 27, 2001.


Just as children need guidelines and limits and rules to learn how to grow into responsible adults, we too need reminding sometime that limits and rules are needed to continue to enable all of us to "Play nice in the sandbox together." Some folks insist on throwing sand in other folk's eyes even after being asked not to, making play in the sandbox miserable for the rest us who do not throw sand.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), September 27, 2001.

gilly, it was a brawl, alright. I think a lot of energy was generated by the elections from last fall and there were a lot of political comments, etc., being slung around. Religion and politics were *very* hot topics. It got to be less of a forum and more like a fight club and finally by late winter, a bunch of us had had enough!

Keeping the focus of the forum has really helped. Thanks Ken and Dave. If I want something other than what we have here, I have a whole bunch of other forums to go to.

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), September 28, 2001.


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