Ok, that all makes sense. I new there had to be a good reason. Now, how do you know if the "Heirloom" seeds you are buying are actually heirloom seeds? Do you have one supplier that you have found to have a better selection/price, or that you have had a good relationship with? Please let me know of your favorites. I would like to go ahead and order seeds now for the spring. Although it will take additional time, I would like to be able to gather seeds each year for the next spring (if I am going to try and be self reliant, then I better learn how to do this). I REALLY appreciate all of your input. I was raised on a farm, but being the youngest, I was usually more in the way, and didn't have to do too much (wish now that I had). I have many, many questions, but sometimes feel that some people can be rude to us newcombers (make us feel even dumber for asking questions that seem obvious to them). I DO appreciate all of your help!!! Thanks! Lisa B.

-- Lisa B. (J5diecast@aol.com), September 24, 2001

Answers

Hi Lisa, I really like the Seed Savers Exchange. They are dedicated to keeping old time varieties. (Seed Savers Exchange, 3076 North Winn Road, Decorah, IA 52101) I would also get a book on saving seeds. Some seeds are processed differently. Maybe you remember how to do different types, like tomatos need to ferment and rot off the little gel sack on the seed. Anyways, I found a book called Seed to Seed very helpful(in the Seed Savers Catalog), and tells you which plants need to go two years to produce seeds, how spinach has male and female plants - so you need more than one, etc. Things that I didn't know, and would not have been able to save seed unless I read it. hope this helps.

-- notnow (notnow05@yahoo.com), September 24, 2001.

My favorite is: Baker Creek Heirloom Seed Co, www.rareseeds.com, phone/fax 417-924-8917. They may not necessarily have the best price, but I really like their selection of heirloom and rare seeds. Everything I bought from them this year did pretty well. The vegetables definitely do not look like the grocery store variety where they're all the same exact size and color. We grow our vegetables mostly for our own food and sell the surplus to a couple of customers. Our garden is completely organic and the plants from heirloom seeds seem to do pretty well without chemicals. Good Luck!

-- Rose Marie Wild (wintersongfarm@yahoo.com), September 24, 2001.

Your questions will always help another person-whether they take the time to say so or not on the board. Ignore the rudies. Post away! No question is too dumb!

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

Lisa, We were all "newbies" at one time, so don't be afraid to ask questions. Heavens, if we don't ask, we don't learn, and even those who think they know it all, learn new things on here. Somewhere I have a book called "Seed Savers" I believe, also a good one to check on how and what you can save. Who knows, maybe one of the hybrids will produce something you like even better. Never hurts to experiment. Good luck! Jan

-- Jan in CO (Janice12@aol.com), September 24, 2001.

Lisa - you can tell that a plant is not a hybrid several ways. Usually the catalog will say "heirloom" or "open-pollinated". Check the description - if it says "variety" or "type", rather than "hybrid", it is probably not a hybrid (most hybrids are labeled as such in the catalogs). Also, some catalogs have a whole section just for non-hybrid seeds. it's a selling point and they know it.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

I agree w/ R.M. Wild, baker creek seeds has done well by me. if you order in bulk,[oz.& #'s], the price becomes quite reasonable. living in the south's mild winter,& moist conditions means there are many endemic soil & air borne diseases, so seedsaving is good economy for very few varieties for me. if you have colder winters you'll prob. have better luck. Don't be afraid to save seed from hybrids because of "poorer quality" . Big seed co. just love that even us homsteader types have forgotten basic husbandry. There is nothing superior or inferior about a hybrid, it just has two seperate parents that each had desirable traits, & these traits often show up in the offspring. Most 'heirlooms & o.p' plants BEGAN as hybrids [natural or selected crosses],it can take from 3 to 15 generations/summers to select & save seed of offspring that have the traits you like until all of the offspring are uniform and will produce offsping that are near carbon copies of last years crop. [But you can name it whatever you want!] thus we have hybrids on the market galore! They only take one summer to get the results a company wants for marketing. Many seed co. will not be ready to ship out seed yet IF you are getting this summer's fresh seed that is...or have the 2002 cat. ready either. The only way I know if what i buy heirloom wise is if i have seen an old drawing/photo of the veggie & what i grow looks like it! Bakers' creek seeds lists the date & source of heirlooms so i guess you could look it up?

-- bj pepper in C. MS. (pepper.pepper@excite.com), September 24, 2001.

Lisa, I'm not sure where you live, but if it's outside the South I'd recommend Johnny's Selected Seeds, Foss Hill Road Albion Maine 04910, 207-437-4301, or Fedco Seeds, P.O. Box 520, Waterville Maine 04903, 207-873-7333. Johnny's has a website, Fedco doesn't, but it does have one of the best catalogs I've ever seen. Fedco is a cooperative, but you don't have to be a member to order. Fedco and Johnny's have led the fight against genetic engineering and for the return of heirloom open-pollinated seeds. Both of them try to acquire as much of the seed stock as possible from local growers.

-- Cash (Cash@andcarry.com), September 24, 2001.

BJ Pepper, Thanks! I live very much in the South, not far from you (Raised in Coker, AL-about 1 hr drive to Columbus, now live between Tuscaloosa and B'ham). What do you find are the easiest seeds to collect and save from year to year? I don't mind buying seeds each year, but would like to try to be more self - reliant. Thanks again! Lisa B.

-- Lisa B. (j5diecast@aol.com), September 24, 2001.

I'm very new to heirloom plants also but I've been very happy with the seeds I've gotten from Sand Hill Preservation in Iowa. I purchased tomatoes, eggplant, squash and corn from them and they have all done well.

-- Trisha-MN (tank@Linkup.net), September 24, 2001.

We have a greenhouse in our area that has only heirloom tomatoes. He had 27 varieties this year and his plants are very reasonable priced. I let him have a few of my Russian seeds so next year I can get my plants from him. I don't have a greenhouse so we end up with plants started in every window. Just lucky I guess.

-- Mel Kelly (melkelly@webtv.net), September 24, 2001.

i find that the bigger seed companies like Vesey's etc are catching on that there is a market for heirlooms and o.p.s. I got my first heirlooms seeds (brandywine tomato seeds) from Vesey's. then I joined SoDC (seeds of diversity canada) and got a bunch of various seeds. I currently only have peas, beans and calendula saved this year. My sister bought me some covetted lettuce seeds this summer. the price was ridiculous but i had never found that seed though I had heard of the variety. She thought I was wierd but wanted to buy it for me so who was I to argue? LOL it was the Quatre Saison variety of lettuce. I will try to save from that one and heaven help any wild lettuce I find nearby to contaminate my treasure! Has anyone considered a seed exchange here?

-- Alison in NS (aproteau@istar.ca), September 25, 2001.

Lisa, I'm sorry if you have had to deal with rudeness on this forum- theres no need for that, it makes me angry! I "learned" to garden from my Grandmother who had a HUGE garden in East Tennessee Forest area. The soil was incredable-dark, crumbly, fertile-you would throw some seeds out, hoe once or twice, then harvest more than you could possably use. Now, I'm trying to garden in worn-out clay-rock mess in South-central Ky, where we've had drought the last few years-it's a completely different thing and My grandmother simply cannot understand why I'm so frustrated AlthoughI've gardened for years in different areas-I feel like a completely new gardener now.

My favorite seed catalog is Pinetree Garden Seeds(POB 300, New Glouster, ME 04260 website- www.superseeds.com )Not specifically an heirloom catalog, though they do not carry any gentically engeneered seeds. Thier seed packets are smaller-and cheaper! than a lot of other seed packets-they cater to the "BackYard Gardener" I have found the seed amounts to be suffcient for my family's needs. They also have a great selection of books, some tools and other garden stuff. Over the years, I have found them to be very helpful, and polite, just great to work with. They get my vote.

-- Kelly (Markelly@scrtc.com), September 25, 2001.

Ah Birmingham I rescued/adopted a pair of ferrets from there, you live in a pretty area, sorry to hear about the soil! The only seeds i purposely tried to save this year were green shisho,lime basil, fancy edible soybeans[^*#(! DEER got ' em,right thru the paper bags too, now i have to pay 6-8$s again!],korean hybrid melon,moonflowers,cypress vines & other onamentals.I really enjoy trying new veggies so i usually save only the things that are so easy it is a shame to pay $ for them: basil,moonflw,etc. or things that the suppliers belive are worth their weight in gold: impt. soybeans, korean melon,lime basil -15 seeds 1.25!. This years moonflowers came from 6 seeds gathered from the local library garden last year now i should have enough to 'pass-along' and plant the whole front fence next year! On your quest for transplant pots i reccomend wal=mart, they have 72 cell pack w/ greenhouse lid & waterproof tray for 2.50 ish. I also cobble together 'drawers' to plant in. they are just scrap lumber nailed into a flat. I have also used retired actual drawers before these are great for bulk things you don't want to take up individual pots for: onions,lettuce,ect.

-- bj pepper in C. MS. (pepper.pepper@excite.com), September 26, 2001.