Religious Intolerance

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When I came to this forum earlier this year, I was introduced, for the first time ever, to live religious debate. Although I had recently come to the conclusion of a long spiritual quest, I discovered I still had something to learn: the true scope of religious intolerance.

I am still haunted by two specific threads, one pagan in origin, the other Christian. One spoke of tolerance, love, respect...the other of intolerance, hatred, and self-righteousness.

Here's my approach to educating my children on any given subject: "This is what I believe. Not all people believe the same thing. Here is what some of those others believe. Someday, you will have to decide what it is that you will believe. Whatever you decide, I will always love and respect you."

Here's the intolerance I see: "This is what I believe. This is what you will believe. We won't talk about what others believe, because they are wrong. Anything else is unacceptable."

There are many reasons for homeschooling, many of which I support. Not wanting one's children to be "tainted" by public school children isn't one of them. That's intolerance.

Some of you want religion in the schools. Rather, you want your particular brand of religion in the schools. Anything else is unacceptable. That's intolerance.

Would someone here explain to me why some people are so threatened by ideas other than their own? Why can't our children be taught both creation and evolution...both Christianity and Islam...both the Bible and the Koran?? Our children are intelligent, thinking individuals who one day will be adults needing to make decisions of their own. Why deny them the educational base to do so?

In light of current events, the teaching of tolerance should be utmost on everyone's list. Yet, since last Tuesday's tragedy, I'm still seeing so much intolerance right here on this forum.

Last week's lesson: Intolerance breeds hatred in the short run, terrorism and war in the long run.

"Satan" is laughing off his ugly head.

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), September 21, 2001

Answers

Right on!!!!!!

-- Tana Cothran (tana@getgoin.net), September 21, 2001.

Well said!

-- Elizabeth (lividia66@aol.com), September 21, 2001.

Sharon, I agree with you 100%. However, when you write about homeschoolers not wanting their children to be "tainted" by public school children, I feel like I must respond. I homeschool my two daughters, ages 11 and 4. My oldest was in public school through the 4th grade. I'm not concerned about her coming in contact with children of different races and faiths. I encourage that wholeheartedly, and I truly believe MOST homeschoolers do as well.

What I don't want her "tainted" by is a school system that treats her like a number. A system that holds her back and that she finds unchallenging and boring. A system that does precious little to stop bullying behavior. A system where pre-teen girls in our little town have received death threats from other students, and the PARENTS were upset about the boys who did the threatening getting a 3-day suspension. They thought that was a punishment to harsh for threatening the lives and terrorising those young girls. I don't want my daughters to have to try to learn in such an environment.

As for tolerance, that is very strongly preached in this house! I consider myself a "sort of" Christian, although I do tend to incorporate some Buddhist beliefs as well. As for my kids, I tell them, just as you do, "This is what I believe. Other people believe this and that." When they ask me how they will know what is right and wrong to believe, I tell them that they will know by the way it makes them feel in their heart. If it feels right in their heart, then it is right for them.

Here's the effect it's had on my daughters. Just yesterday, we were heading out to the barn to take care of our rabbits, when my youngest noticed our male terrier mutt trying to mount one of our male barn cats - who was just standing there looking sort of perplexed! My youngest said, "I think Kringle needs to find a girl dog!" And my oldest daughter replied, "Hey... to each his own! They're grown up animals, and if that's what makes them happy, then that's okay." So, while they're giggling about our pets' gay interspecies relationship, I'm smiling in my heart, because I know that they are learning tolerance and acceptance.

Just another typical day on the farm! :-)

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), September 21, 2001.


Religion is NOT the main reason many homeschool. Other reasons include:

parents being tired of having to disabuse their children of various and sundry educational notions such as "the process is more important than the right answer".

a desire to keep their kids away from those who smoke, drink, use drugs, have bad manners, etc. If you can't afford private school, homeschooling is pretty much the only answer.

a need for education in different, more appropriate subjects (like phonics, for example), that the public schools are unable or unwilling to provide

parents looking at all the partial days (for teacher "in-service" and other nonsense) and being tired of all the schedule disruption. Why don't you just have 4-day school weeks for the kids, period?

I do think the teaching of world religions is very important-- unfortunately most don't even get this 'til college if at all, but the big increase in homeschooling probably has very little to do with religion--there are just too many things wrong with our present public school system.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 21, 2001.


well said Sharon. Namaste jz

-- jz (oz49us@yahoo.com), September 21, 2001.


I have helped homeschool a child for 2 1/2 years now. Religious intolerance has nothing to do with it. Her mom is studying christianity and her dad is an athiest. The reason they are homeschooling her has to do with some of the reasons already mentioned by others plus a few. They don't want her exposed to the cliques in school. Also, some kids are having sex in grade school, yes, actually IN the school! And needs to deal with the spoiled kids who have eveerthing? Why would they want her to put up with the mentality of "my dad is a doctor and yours isn't", or "I have a private telephone line in my room and you don't."

Personally, I loved the academic part of school, but hated the social stupidity of the other kids. Being 1/2 Native American I was teased from the first week of kindergarten until I was a Junior in high school. No one should have to put up with that. I only wish I could have been homeschooled and missed it all.

-- debra in ks (windfish@toto.net), September 21, 2001.


Perhaps a glance at Romans chapter 14 would help with these questions? I hope so. gilly

-- gilly (WAYOUTFARM@skybest.com), September 22, 2001.

I quote Sharon's original post, to which I added the bold typeface:

There are many reasons for homeschooling, many of which I support. Not wanting one's children to be "tainted" by public school children isn't one of them. That's intolerance.

She didn't say that homeschooling was only or even mainly about religious intolerance. Only that it CAN be a reason. No need to defend homeschooling as a whole.

-- Joy F [in So. Wisconsin] (CatFlunky@excite.com), September 22, 2001.


Excellent post Sharon! I wholeheartedly agree with what you say and think that we each need to take a look within to see if we are showing proper respect to the rights of our fellow man.

This topic raises a question in my mind however. How tolerant can I be of one who is intolerant of me? How should one respond to intolerance when the tables are turned, as they now have been. At what point do I stand up and say "No, I cannot tolerate your religion because it violates the rights of others"?

There's tolerance and then there's allowing intolerance and calling it "tolerance" on our part.

Do we wait until some person or group has crossed the line and abuses the rights of others before we take action? Or are there certain criteria we can apply to this concept of tolerance?

-- Nancy in Maine (paintme61@yahoo.com), September 22, 2001.


Gees folks ... these threads are something else sometimes! Sharon, two thumbs up on your original post - homeschooling is a good thing and tolerance is a good thing ... and speaking of tolerance (or the lack thereof)....

This Nation is the MOST tolerant group of people on the face of the earth! That's one of the things that make us a GREAT nation! Look at all the different ethnic groups that make up our country, and have the right, protected by our laws, to preach, teach, and live as they so choose. Sure, we have problems here in the Homeland, but who doesn't have problems in his/her own household? That's part of being FAMILY! But deep down inside, we all pull together and love each other and this country! We're a laid-back, easy-goin' bunch of folks that (for the most part) look for the best in others ... UNTIL YOU MESS WITH US!

That's the distinction ... we were having another morning of coffee, Doonsbury, and donuts when all of a sudden planes started killing our people. I'm sure, too, that a majority of those people were thinking how they would just LOVE to see Ben Ladan's nuts pulled up through his nostrils to dangle on his upper lip forever - full of malice and intollerant hate! Is that the picture you get of the people that died that day??? HELL NO!!! At least not if you have any active brain cells ... they were just common folks like us doing their jobs and making it the best they knew how. They weren't thinking of religion or intollerance or terrorists, but they had their lives snuffed out in an instant. Tollerance - TOLLERANCE MY ASS! Not NOW! Now it's time to KICK ASS!!!!!!!!!

-- Cap'n (cptnktal@yahoo.com), September 22, 2001.



Whhhooaa...

Before this thread transforms into a diatribe about our military response to terrorism, I just want to point out that I was thinking in terms of PREVENTION, not reactionary measures.

My husband has served in the military in one capacity or another for 20 years. Currently, he is in the Air National Guard, and like many families around the country, we are waiting for THE CALL.

I don't pretend to have answers to terrorism and only hope that our elected officials do. Besides, my husband's position renders my feelings about military response completely irrelevant. I will support him, and thus our military, because he needs me to. Period.

In response to Cap'n, I wholeheartedly agree with your statements about our being the most tolerant nation in the world. Our diversity makes us unique to the world, and yes, GREAT. Thanks for the reminder.

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), September 22, 2001.


I don't see anything at all wrong with wanting to raise children with good values and within their parent's religion. If they don't get it at home, where will they get it? I can tell you right now they're not going to get it from public school!

Truth is truth. If you teach it as being variable or just one of many options, any other of which may or may not be the truth, it's not the truth anymore. If it's not absolute, it just isn't the truth.

Children and people need truth a a yardstick to measure other things against. Without that yardstick, there are no standards, it is just a matter of what kind of standards and behavior will be tolerated by other people and what will not, and where are the gray areas. For example- infanticide is wrong, abortion is a gray area and adoption is great, according to such a system. The problem is that the values of people in general can swing so drastically, based on what their frinds think, their experiences, a documentary on TV or even just a movie! Ten years from now infanticide might be OK if the child is deformed or premature or simply not wanted. We are headed that way already. Variable standards and values lead to a lot of confusion as they are constantly evolving and changing. I do think that we need to be very careful that what we teach as truth, really is the truth. Doctrines of men should not be taught as the ultimate truth. What I teach my children is that there is an Almighty, he gave us everything good that we have and he loves us. He gave us the bible to tell us more about Him and the bible is the truth. People have come up with a lot of different religions based on the bible, and it's important to read it thoroughly and carefully and in context. I don't think that's such an intolerant way to teach them.

I also homeschool and I am one of those who is wary about my children playing with public school kids. However, my experience has been that when HS children have a selection of children to play with they generally prefer the other HS kids. If I am intolerant because I do not approve of my children learning bad manners, sassing back to me, wanting every new faddish toy in the store, and dumbing them down, so be it. It's not like I'm grabbing every child I see and telling them how wrong they are. I just happen to see it as my responsibility to teach ours certain values, standards and codes of conduct.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), September 22, 2001.


I still stand behind my original response. When people speak of children being "tainted" by public school, most of the time religion is not even mentioned--they are talking about the reasons I and other posters have mentioned. This is no different from a parent saying "I don't want you hanging out with so-and-so, they are are a bad influence because..."

I think it is sad that those who want to keep their kids away from bad elements in society (through homeschooling or even shutting off the TV all or most of the time) until their value systems have gelled a bit are seen as intolerant. Far from it.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 22, 2001.


Well said Rebekah!

-- Rebekah (rebekah_swinden@hotmail.com), September 22, 2001.

Rebekah, you teach your children your truth as absolute. Osama bin Laden teaches his children his truth as absolute. Both of you would have the whole world believe your own truths as absolute. Once again, we come to war.

The "yardstick" is a feeling of rightness, not an absolute truth. Children who learn to look for that feeling are less easily swayed by the opinions of others. They won't learn bad manners, sass back, or demand every toy on the market unless you allow them to. Experimenting with right and wrong (under the guidance of a loving parent) is a part of growing up...it's how they learn to recognize the "feeling" of right from wrong.

By the way, all the major religions were given a code of conduct very similar to the Ten Commandments.

-- Sharon (pinnow@inwave.com), September 22, 2001.



Rebekah, you teach your children your truth as absolute. Osama bin Laden teaches his children his truth as absolute. Both of you would have the whole world believe your own truths as absolute. Once again, we come to war.
No! That isnot what I said! I do not teach my opinions as the ultimate truth or call it MY truth! Because I could be wrong, and I don't mind admitting that. But I do believe that the Bible is the truth. That is not 'my truth', it is The Truth. This is entirely different from Osama Bin Laden ( their holy war and violent behavior is not sanctioned by the Koran) and I think that the paralel you are trying to draw is misguided.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), September 22, 2001.

Oy vey! I think I'm going to think my response over. Personally, Sharon, I think this is one of the better posts I've seen in a long time. God bless!

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), September 22, 2001.

I'm sorry, Rebekah...I didn't mean to put you on par with bin Laden.

The point I was making is this: You call the Bible "The Truth". There are billions of people around the world who would disagree with you. Since the Bible is what you believe, then I called it your truth. It's not everyone's truth. There currently is not an absolute truth for everyone, which is why we need to stress tolerance and acceptance of everyone's right to another truth. Where there is no tolerance, hatred brews.

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), September 22, 2001.


I agree with you Sharon. Teaching the jewish/christian bible as an absolute truth can only create more intolerance.

I really don't see a lot of difference between the christian fuddies and the moslem fuddies.

-- Joe (CactusJoe001@AOL.com), September 22, 2001.


Why would I want to teach my children a lie????? The intolerance has turned the other way, it is towards Christians now. I don't give a hoot who you want to worship, but don't tell me I can't pray in school or other public places. Don't force me at my workplace to take diversity classes about something I don't believe in and feel is wrong. This country was built on freedom of religion but Christians are not that free to worship as they please anymore.

-- ugly (here@home.com), September 22, 2001.

There is no such thing as "my truth" and "your truth". Either something is true or it isn't. There is God's Truth and there is human "whatever feels right to you". That isn't truth, it's relativism -- it may make you feel good now, but it's a bad foundation for getting through life, and a dreadful thing to face eternity with.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 22, 2001.

Wow...this thread is really cooking. Sharon, I read your original post and felt that it was timely and that you made your point very well. I can see by the time I finished all the responses that this discussion was getting heated in regards to religious beliefs. The original post placed emphasis on encouraging children to evaluate differing opinions, realize that not everyone feels the same about all issues. After becoming educated on the facts surrounding the issues, then, with careful consideration, they may form an opinion or belief of their own. Isn't this what we do during every election: read the issues pro and con, then decide how it affects our lives and cast our vote yea or ney. But religion is different. It involves faith. And faith is believing in something that cannot be proven to be true to someone whose faith tells them that they are correct. Sharon's point was that these differences shouldn't matter. That we should, if we haven't adopted a faith of our own, remain open to all legitimate schools of thought. Then, after searching our hearts, we find the one that answers our inner calling. But most religions require that we bring our children up in that faith. And as true believers, we hasten to do so. Nothing wrong with that at all. But I can remember coming home from high school one day and having my mother corner me later that evening to "have a talk with that boy" as my father put it. I attended an informal bible study group during lunch break. There was a period where several of my friends and I carried bibles to school with us: Bible Bangers we were called. Anyway, the group of 3 became a group of 5 and then some days it was 8 or 10. Not everyone was from the same faith. We began to talk about what we had learned from our religious leaders and had some great discussions. My parents considered themselves, and thus me, to be Protestant. They didn't attend church and I attended evening bible study groups at the home of the pastor of a Bible Church. But when someone from school gave me a cross attached to a length of beads and I came home with it between the pages of my bible, it was time to talk. Although I explained that it was not a symbol of my religious beliefs, my parents believed it represented the Catholic Church and they did not want be to keep it. I said it was only a book marker for my bible. My mother said that although she could not explain adequately, it was as in appropriate to mark my bible as was the centerfold of Playboy magazine. Well, believe me, I never felt quite the same about Catholics again, until years later, as an adult, I learned that my parents were doing what they thought best based on their beliefs. And as an adult, through education and learning about life, I learned that many of my parents beliefs were unfounded. I think this was the point Sharon was making. This country was founded on the idea of freedom from persection based religious beliefs. And to teach our children as we believe has always been. But the world is a big place once we leave our communities and there are many different thoughts on all subjects.

-- Dwight (Summit1762@aol.com), September 22, 2001.

Hi, Sharon. You asked, "Would someone here explain to me why some people are so threatened by ideas other than their own?"

Could the answer be that they are afraid that their belief won't stand up to scrutiny?

Rebeka, you say, "truth is truth". I disagree. I think we human types are learning new "truths" all the time.

For instance, when I was nine or ten years old, I became very interested in astronomy. I read lots of books about the universe, and the solar system in particular. I learned that Saturn had rings. No other planet had rings. This was taught as "the truth". Now we know that Jupiter and Uranus also have rings around them. This is now "the truth".

In biblical times, what was taught as the "truth"? Did you know that we weren't even aware that Neptune, Uranus and Pluto weren't even known to exist before the telescope was invented? Did you know that, before Copernicus theorized that the Earth revolves around the Sun, the "Church" preached that the Earth was the center of the Universe, and that every other "heavenly" body revolved around the Earth? Telescopic observations eventually "proved" the Copernican theory correct ("true"), and mankind was faced with the fact that not only was the Earth not center of the universe, but mankind was forced to look at his place in the Grand Plan (the universe as constructed by the Great Equalizer.

I had a telescope when I was young. I could see several moons which circled Jupiter, and two or three which circled Saturn. My truth, had I not read differently, would have been that there were, say, five moons of Jupiter, and two moons of Saturn. The truth I learned in my reading, however, told me that people with better telescopes than mine had concluded that Jupiter had 12, and Saturn had nine moons. That was the "truth" of the late fifties. Now, I believe the "truth" is that these two planets have many more moons than we thought in the late fifties. Thus, we have a new "truth". Perhaps a better way to put it is that the truth is that we have to keep changing our beliefs, as we get better tools to observe our universe.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), September 22, 2001.


Sharon/WI you said: "Why can't our children be taught both creation and evolution" I agree,how do we not know whether the Supreme used evolution as part of creation. But then again a question does rise with your post and that is who should teach this tolerance? And I am sure the answers would be as much intolerant as they are tolerant. which would lead right back to the same old same old. Sorry to say but there is no answer to your question. because humans are different from each other you will always have intolerance for others that are different.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), September 22, 2001.

Kathleen, even "God's Truth" is relative, isn't it??

I know from reading other threads that you are very strong in your faith.

This is going to sound sarcastic, but I don't know how else to make the point: Would you please tell me on which version of the Bible you'd like to put the official stamp of "God's Truth"? (Or did God already put his official stamp on one of them, and I missed it?)

Bibles differ. When Christians can't even agree on absolute truths (hence catholics, methodists, lutherans, baptist, etc.), how is the entire world to come to agreement on "God's Truth"?

I happen to believe there is one absolute God's Truth. So do you. So does the next person. And the next. And they'll all be different. Here on Earth, truth is relative.

Why teach our children something in which we don't believe? For understanding...for tolerance. Teaching something doesn't make it truth.

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), September 23, 2001.


JOJ, the things you were listing were not truth and never had been, even if people believed in them as such. this is why I think it is so important to be vey judicious about what is labeled the truth. If it's not, it just cheapens the real truth. There is so much we don't know.

Sharon, if there is no absolute truth, no unvarying standard of morality or acceptable behavior, then why are you so worked up about these terrorists? After all, if there is no real unbending right or wrong, then who are we to say that they were evil? Because they killed? Why is killing wrong? The Bible says thou shall not kill, but if the Bible is not the truth then why should it matter if it says killing is wrong? How intolerant of us that we find this behavior unacceptable!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), September 23, 2001.


Sharon, I've e-mailed you an explanation of the versions of the Bible (too long to post here) but you are wrong about one thing. Truth is not relative. Man's opinions, feelings, and philosophies are relative. But Truth is not. If it was, it would, by definition, not be Truth. Check the dictionary definition of the word.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 23, 2001.

Sharon, one thing you probably should teach your children is those intolerant people generally always think they speak the TRUTH. No one else's opinions matter to them as their mind is closed out of necessity.

-- Joe (CactusJoe001@AOL.com), September 23, 2001.

Rebekah, I do happen believe that "Thou shall not kill" is an unbendable, absolute truth...not so much because the Bible says so, but because so many of the world religions say it is so. (And, yes, because it holds the ring of truth in my heart.)

As I said before, I do believe in absolute truths...and many of those truths are shared by most of the major world religions.

People will never agree or accept a single source of truth, nor are all truths contained in a single source.

I have not once, anywhere, asked for tolerance of terrorism. If that's what you're reading into this post, you are so very wrong. I am sickened by the event...and am doing the only thing I can in my own home to prevent the hatred that leads to intolerant acts of terrorism.

At this point, I've said all I can say in as many ways as I can say it. Thanks to all of you who offered support and understanding. I'm encouraged to see that others, too, see the need for the teaching of tolerance.

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), September 23, 2001.


JOJ--I understand what you are saying, but actually you are talking about science and theories. Theories are proven wrong all the time and then someone comes up with a new theory to explain their scientific position. Also, the earth being center of the universe was never official Catholic church teaching. Scientists of the time who happened to be Catholic promoted this theory, but according to the writings of Saint Thomas Aquinas, the Church never had any official Church doctrine about this.

-- vicki in NW OH (thga76@aol.com), September 23, 2001.

Sharon I agree with what you said, but lets look at this truth example of yours: "Rebekah, I do happen believe that "Thou shall not kill" is an unbendable, absolute truth...not so much because the Bible says so, but because so many of the world religions say it is so. (And, yes, because it holds the ring of truth in my heart.)"

The original wording of this should an is, "Thou shall not murder", it really is "lay in wait". So killing is not wrong, in the sense of an eye for an eye, or self defense. Laying in wait for somebody, killing them after thinking about it is murder and is a sin. But then so is working on Saturdays :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 23, 2001.


Good catch, Vicki. Actually, I don't equate self-defense with killing. Thanks for the clarification, and you're right, in this case I should have said murder.

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), September 23, 2001.

The drawback of "teaching tolerance" is that we are watering down morals and judgement. If you teach children to tolerate a certain belief or activity as a "right" to be different, then how or what do children base their choices on? Then you open all doors. Guidelines, children cannot function well without them. Teaching tolerance "allows" for and condones poor behavior. I can't buy into the tolerance thing as far as giving children a carte de blanc choice as to what is right or wrong...it bleeds over into acceptance which turns into complacency. I think you run the risk of dangerously lowering standards...ie Hollywood.

"our children are intelligent, thinking individuals who one day will be adults needing to make decisions of their own. Why deny them the educational base to do so?

Can't see how teaching "tolerance", per say, will bring the desired results. This country is full of kids killing kids, unrestrained sexual activity, and on and on and on...to me, this is the result of "teaching tolerance." Kids need something to hang their hat on. To me, teaching tolerance cannot be done without throwing in restrictions or guidelines somewher--but, when you do, you aren't teaching tolerance anymore, you're back to teaching a belief system you believe will benefit your kids....this "Tolerance thing" is just another PC buzz word that gets bandied about without anyone really even knowing what the heck they are talking about. Absolute tolerance would be mayhem...that's why we as human beings ended up waaaaay back in the stone age as seeing a reason for laws and a social/moral belief system. We can all learn from our ancestors if we could allow ourselves that luxury. This present PC society, as it stands, isn't all that great, Hollywood and TV have been preaching "tolerance" for years and look at the quality of the Movie and TV programs our kids our given the opportunity to watch.

Just a thought from the local super-conservative/whacky Christian. I hope you will all "tolerate" my input.

-- JackM (jlrclr@earthlink.net), September 25, 2001.


I agree that intolerance of others has been a cause of much conflict. But religion is not necessarily the cause for intolerance. As I look at the Scripture and what it teaches, it's that we should love people and hate sin. Christ was an example of treating others with love. That dosen't mean that He liked the situations He found people in.

When I treat others with disrespect I dishonor the God who created them.(even if they don't recognize His handywork) God gave each one of us the gift of free will. Adam and Eve where given an opportunity to make mistakes and they did. He also mada a way back for them. If God can give people an opportunity to make wrong choices shouldn't I also extend the same opportunity.

Yes, I realize to say "worng choices" could come off as intolerant, yet I would be false to my beliefs if I saw any other choice as right. The question remains can we be true to our beliefs and still be respectful to others?

Respect is the real issue. I have a set of beliefs that I adhere to as best I can. I know that there are those who don't agree. Dispite those differences we can still come together and build bridges of friendship if we will show respect to one another.

-- Lian Mowry (lianmowry@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.


Hi Sharon, maybe the first thing to teach kids is, to be tolerant of other Christian denominations! I was raised Catholic, and you woudn't believe how many people of other Christian faiths have told me the Catholics don't believe in Jesus. Do you think that instead of it being all of the parents fault, it could be largely the fault of organized religion and the leaders of such? If people would just stick to the Holy Book of each religion, tolerance would take care of itself by what is wrote in each book.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), September 27, 2001.

Lian, not to get into a Biblical discussion here (we'd probably get deleted), but I recall Jesus going into the temple and tearing up the money changers in a very aggressive, intolerant way. Yes, even Jesus was "intolerant" of certain situations and acted on it. He often confronted the Pharisees and their twisted take on the 'law'. Like I stated previously, there isn't anything wrong with intolerance in and of itself, some things just should not be tolerated. Perhaps you are correct when you state respect as being the real issue. I still think this whole "tolerance" issue is PC related and just another word, like "gay" that has been redefined and in turn, missapplied. As always IMHO, well, maybe no so H. ;-)

-- JackM (jlrclr@earthlink.net), September 28, 2001.

Apparently, some of you are equating a tolerance for another's religious beliefs with a moral free-for-all.

Everyone finds one or more issues that they find difficult to tolerate. Our freedom of speech allows for a means of peaceful demonstration...and by all means, speak up if you must. Just don't take a gun with you.

I think we're all raising our children with a moral code that we feel is best for them. I certainly expect my children to behave in a certain manner. They haven't become confused or forgetful of my expectations just from the learning of belief systems that differ from my own.

I'm trying to stress a tolerance for an INTANGIBLE belief system. As for tolerance of a TANGIBLE act, protest if you must. Get angry, if necessary. Yell and stomp your feet. Don't, however, perpetrate an immoral act (murder, for example) to support your point of view.

I would extend Lian's comment about respect far enough to say that religious tolerance IS respect.

Another of Lian's comments about "building bridges of friendship" has me wondering: Don't any of you have friends with beliefs other than your own? My best friend of 25 years (since we were 10!!) is a devout Christian; my step-sister is Catholic; another friend, Mormon; my favorite college professor, Sikh; some other relatives and friends, agnostic or even atheist. My husband (and love of my life) doesn't share my beliefs, and yet we agree on the same moral code. Do we not have tolerance, because we don't know anyone different, and therefore can't see that people are people no matter what they believe??

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), September 28, 2001.


Someone mentioned it was difficult for him to believe that these nice people could have caused such strife here, well the truth is, most of them have left the building, or at least don't post anymore. They were unhappy that they could not express themselves the way they chose, and were apparently unwilling to compromise their values for the sake of some semblance of unity.

Most of us are aware that the reason some Christians continue to 'witness' long past the point where they have been asked to stop,is that they are Biblically required to do so. They theory being that they are concerned about our immortal souls, and until/unless we submit to their belief system ("the truth"), we shall undoubtedly be cast into eternal damnation.

Now on the surface this is a very loving and noble cause. Indeed, if I perceived for instance, that all around me people were starving, I would certainly do my utmost to help feed them, so they could be well- fed like me, although my motivation would need not be a command from anyone, but merely an expression of my love and concern for my fellow human beings. To do nothing, to sit in my comfortable home, filling my face with food, and living my life filled with blessings without sharing would I think make most of us feel anxious and guilty.

And so I would venture out with my car full of beautiful food, homegrown even! Perfect, lovely and delicous, and just what my neighbors need! I would knock on doors, present my gift of love, so they may benefit from my good fortune, my blessings from God.

But perhaps a strange thing happens.

It is difficult to even believe, but most of these starving people are refusing my food! Excuse me?? These folks are STARVING, and yet they will not eat!! They have all kinds of excuses like being allergic to this kind of food, or that their people throughout the ages have been forbidden to eat this kind of food, or they have 'emotional' reasons for rejecting this free life-saving nourishment! Most are polite, but some actually slam the door in my face!

And so I return home, my vehicle still containing most of the cargo I left with, to comtemplate this sad turn of events.

After days of meditation, I believe I know what I must do. That these people need my food is irrefutable. They will die without it, pure and simple. If they are too blind to recognize the gravity of the situation, it matters not. I will feed them, come hell or high water.

Off I go again, knocking on my hungry neighbors' doors. Some seem annoyed to see me again with the same food, a few take a bit from me with a strange smile that makes me suspicious that they won't really eat it, and SEVERAL slam the door in my face! But I am determined to feed them, because I know what they need, and even if I have to break into their homes, tie them to the kitchen table and forcefeed them at gunpoint, they will eat of my wonderful, life-saving food.

Some Christians cry FOUL when asked to tone down the witnessing. They feel they are being treated unfairly, they feel victimized, persecuted even. A small few even appear to wear this feeling like a badge of honor, like martyrs to the cause, proclaiming their persecution is merely fullfilling prophesy, and they are happily awaiting their heavenly reward. I, for one, wish them well; I sincerely hope they find that reward.

But I believe one's spirituality is the most personal, perhaps the most precious, part of one's life. And what some people cannot seem to grasp is the concept of putting oneself in others' shoes, listening to themselves from the perspective of their audience. It is virtually impossible for one to believe that they know the one, the only undeniable 'truth' for every single human being on the face of the planet, and NOT come across as arrogant and disrespectful. To claim that I know KNOW what is good for YOU, disrespects all that which makes you an unique, irreplaceable child of God. There is a divine reason we are not clones.

As has been pointed out by others, the radical Muslims we see images of today, believe irrefutably that they are doing the will of God, and that God is on their side, based on their interpretation of their holy word. We see them as only evil, and cannot comprehend where they are coming from. We believe when we "preach the gospel to all the lands" that we are doing the will of God, as we interpret our Bible to read,and surely God is on our side. The people to whom we preach, however, often see us as only evil, and cannot understand the justification for our deeds.

I struggle with this same concept in my own life. I have exceedingly strong feelings about natural farming and nature-based healing. Do I believe the world desperately needs my message? You betcha I do. But until I learned to try to walk in the shoes of the conventional farmer down the road, or the physician who married my cousin, not only did my vociferous voice fall on dead ears, but I probably did more harm to the movements I believe in than good.

I DO NOT KNOW, I will never truly know, what it is to be them, much less think I have truth to offer those in distant lands about whom I know less than nothing. And so I write my essays, and make people aware that there are other choices, trying hard to avoid judgement of theirs, but mostly I am just here, available to help when the Spirit moves them to inquire; and as to the others, I let them be who they are, who they were meant to be, knowing that "all things work together for good.."

Yes, respect IS the key....

Peace,



-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), September 28, 2001.


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