Ok, I have come back from vacation and it was a experience to say the least. But I have taken myself to task and many many things have come to surface that I plan to change. And what I want to know is what have we done to ourselves and have you done anything to stop it.

By "IT" I mean, overall morality and general degrading of life-styles, the seemly endless ambition of greed and waste and the rampant apathy.

Now I am not a prude by any means and I have done my share of wild things in the past,and I know in todays age that you can't seem to speak out against anyone or group or force your morals/ideas or such on anyone,but it just seems that something has changed here and I do not think it is for the good. When we went to the beach/park there were areas just trashed with old fireworks,cans,diapers,chairs, even a picnic table in the lake,etc. Most of the young girls (I would say from 14 to mid 20's)were wearing 2 piece suits that I know I have seen band-aids cover more. At the County Fair I watched as group after group of people just dropped food and wrappers/cups on the ground, and where 10 and 12 yr olds come up with 20,30 dollars to spend and walk around with is beyond me. And then one thing I did notice was when adults were around they acted like nothing was wrong with their kids dress or behavior (I have to admit I have fallen into that category myself at times). And that does not include having a 13 yr old neice make a play for me while going to the store.(If one of my daughters were to do that she would not be living today!)

We have polluted our air and water to the point where some have to buy bottled water to drink and wear masks when outside,and nobody seems to even worry about it.

We have laws after laws thrown at us so that we're not to do this or we can't own that,you can't say this, but yet everything is worse then from what I remember just 30 yrs ago.

Bill Clinton will be paid $10+ million to write his memoirs and the American people will trample the bookstores to buy them. WHY???

I could go on but I think you get my drift of the subject. I have done some hard thinking and I know for one that I have not been a solution to most of the above and on occasions have contributed to or overlooked the situations, but I plan on changing that and am not going to stand by and say or do nothing anymore. We have to do something or our kids will not have a very pleasent world to live in after were gone.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), August 16, 2001

Answers

Any wonder why the locals despise the trunkslamer's [tourists/"vacationer's"] who come up to my neck of the woods!!!

-- Jim-mi (hartalteng@voyager.net), August 16, 2001.

"And men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), August 16, 2001.

I know people don't like to talk religion here, but I'm with Skip. The older folks in every generation have talked about how things were getting worse. Fact is, people have always been people, and sin has always been sin. I recently read through the book of Judges in the Bible and was sick at my stomach. Times were BAD then, are bad now, and will only get worse until the Lord returns. The one thing that people can do to help slow it down is the one thing that many people try so hard to stay away from: Pure and undefiled religion such as what's found in the Bible, especially the New Testament. Read Romans.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), August 16, 2001.

I agree with Skip and Cathy. Also, folks have forgotten, or have never been taught, the Golden Rule.

-- Victoria Tompkins (vtompkins@earthlink.net), August 16, 2001.

I couldn't agree with you guys more.

I think a big part of the problem with kids today is that they don't seem to have any parents! Both parents are working, trying to make more and more money and buy more and more things.... seeming to forget about actually RAISING their children. I quit a very lucrative job a couple of years ago so I could stay home with my girls. I quickly snatched my oldest out of public school as well, after seeing the attitude of the teachers and students, and the stress it was causing her. My girls are 11 and 4 and will both be home schooled until they enter college. To see the way young girls are dressing (and UNDRESSING!) is shocking. And the way I've seen children behave towards their parents is truly heartbreaking.

Just yesterday, my youngest daughter and I saw a 4 year old girl throw a screaming trantrum and demand candy from her mother. This girl was talking to her mother worse than I would talk to a DOG! My little girl looked at me with wide, horrified eyes, and said, "Why does her mama let her DO that?" Good question! My little girl just shook her head and said, "That's awful. She shouldn't talk like that."

I've seen girls my oldest daughter's age wearing next to nothing, their faces covered with makeup. And acting like they don't have to answer to anyone or anything. It breaks my heart! These kids need parents who will actually stand up and BE parents! They need someone to teach them how to behave, and what is right and what is wrong and WHY.

We're falling down on the job, no doubt about it.

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), August 17, 2001.

Tom, just a question about that niece: are you sure she was really "making a play" for you, or was she just flirting? It's a difficult age to tell, but lots of young girls just naturally and innocently flirt as part of their growing-up, learning to relate to men process; and doing it with a male relative is (relatively - what else?) safe. On the other hand, of course, there are thirteen year- olds who've left their innocence far behind them, or are eager to do so. I don't know - just a thought.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), August 17, 2001.

I couldn't agree more with all comments. It is so sad what has become of the human race, particularly Americans. I agree that we have gotten away from God and the family has suffered because of no one at home to raise the kids and parents who don't know how to parent. The influences on our children today are extremely strong and I think the more we shelter them from the world, the better they will be. I homeschooled my girls for part of their elementary and middle school years (and wished that I had known about and started homeschooling from the start), but then I let my oldest go back to school in high school. I thought she was strong in her beliefs and able to cope with the pressures, but how wrong I turned out to be. Regretfully, she got into a life style that tears my heart out to see and I pray that some day she will see how wrong it is. My advise to parents is to protect your children at all cost and don't subject them to the pressures of this world. I failed to see the changes in her because I so trusted her and her convictions and just knew that she would never do the things that she ultimately did get into. We as parents are to protect our children and I wholeheartedly believe in homeschooling them and really chosing carefully what activities they are involved in. I think society today just let's children run free with cars and money and no one to watch over them. My youngest daughter is almost 18 but does not drive (and really doesn't care to) and I will not throw her out into the world to work or even to go to college (which she does not care about either at this point) until she is mature enough. Until then, I am perfectly happy to keep her under our protection. Sorry if this is long winded, but every day I have the pain of knowing what life style my oldest has chosen and regret how I failed her, so if I can help other parents to be aware, I am only glad to. I think its time for decent, moral people to raise their voices more against the evils in our society and the best way is raising children that are not caught up in worldly ways and are independent thinkers. I have just recently started reading on this forum and am so encouraged by all of the good things I read here and that there really are some decent caring and sensible people out there. I know we are spread out all over, but it is great to be supportive of each other on this forum. Take care and may God bless you all.

-- Sherry S. (natmatters@mail.istal.com), August 17, 2001.

Hey Tom, I was thinking along the same lines after we went to the IL State Fair and one of our local county fairs. We go every year but somehow this year was different. I was shocked, then saddened - especially over the young girls, the way they dressed and acted. And you are right, the parents did not seem to care and even encouraged it. I agree with the rest of you - and Skip hit the nail right on the head.

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), August 17, 2001.

Amen Skip, you are right on! another verse:

"...when they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became as fools." - Romans 1:21,22

America became great when she glorified God and was thankful to Him. Now that she has imagined herself to be wise enough to reject the Bible, she has become foolish. Our upward path was while we embraced the Word of God, and our downward path began when we turned away from His Word. Religion is a taboo subject in polite company these days, because it is seen as "proselytising." Yet strangely, this rule applies only to Christianity. Other religions may proselytise to their hearts' content. Hindus are even invited to teach about their religious beliefs in our public schools!

We become like what we worship. Religion is the driving force behind all we do, because we are truely spirits, and the life we live in the body is only a reflection or a working out of our inner life. Many people in this country say they admire Jesus' teachings. Yet those people show by their lives that they choose the law of selfishness rather than obeying His law of love.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 17, 2001.

Tom, I think that Don might have made a point here regarding your niece. I am not certain exactly what you ment by "making a play" for you, but I have seen that girls that age, even well churched girls, tend to flirt with the men that they feel most safe with. Perhaps it was really a strong compliment to you that she was flirting with you and trying out her "feminine wiles" on a safe and trusted family member. just a thought

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), August 17, 2001.

Skip's got it right--take God out of the picture and the picture gets ugly! One person can make a difference and after reading this thread I see there are more than one of us. I for one will NOT be buying the book by Mr. Clinton. Our everyday choices do matter including where we spend out $$$.

-- Sharon (spangenberg@hovac.com), August 17, 2001.

I think part of what is wrong in our society is that the media and government are telling us that just because society is progressing, we have to leave the "old " values and adjust to "new and improved" ones.

They tell us that:

Infidelity in marriage is inevitable, and that divorce is the normal course of events. Troubled in your marriage; get divorced, why undergo all that work and stress? You should be HAPPY, who is your spouse to deny you this?

They tell us:

Teenage children will have sex regardless of what we tell and teach them. Yeah, teach them abstension until marriage, you think they listen to you, the parent? No, the new thing to do is give them condoms and teach them how to do sexual acts, only teach them "safe sex". And if they get pregnant, well, there are some options . . .

They tell us:

And you should be able to live together with your "significant other" without considering what can happen. Sure, pregnancy might come out of this, but lots of children are born out of wedlock and are pretty norm now; everyone is doing it. It won't affect the kid at all. There are even career women who CHOOSE to have a child out of wedlock, who needs a man anyway? Marriage is just a hastle, lots of restrictions involved. Hey, you don't like it, you can always leave and find someone else. The kid will adjust fine.

I could go on, but I am developing a real headache thinking over this. Our generation's values have changed more in the past 30 years than the past 30 from values over 300 years old. The old are given little consideration, just "warehouse" them in old folks homes. Let our children suffer from the consequences of our idiotic behavior. We are all going to suffer a whole lot as time goes by if we don't say stop and start being parents again.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), August 17, 2001.

As far as having to buy water, and wear a mask to breathe, don't you think that we'd be even worse off if the government didn't "tell us what to do"? I don't think all the big polluters would clean up their acts even to the extent they have been forced to without governent regulations.

And the other thing is, if we don't take personal responsibility for limiting our family sizes, then I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that we'll hear people squawking about gov't telling us how many children we're allowed to have.

We need to look at the future, and realize we CANNOT continue overpopulating this finite planet!

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), August 17, 2001.

Re: religion....I know what you are saying, and I am Christian, but have studied and experienced many religious ceremonies and friends of all backgrounds (Buddist, Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan in general , Wicca) and I must say that it isn't JUST the religion. It is moral standards in general. Many atheists and agnostics have good morals (my wonderful Mennonite raised Agnostic husband being one).

However, I have recently had this come up over and over to me in the last two weeks after I wrote about it to someone, how I am a RADICAL FEMINIST and that means that I believe a woman can have the most influence in the world by staying home and raising her kids, etc.....I 've had an article published on this topic in the past, and I have recently been thinking about writing more on this, at a deeper level. And leaving it "religious type neutral."

I have also thought on how and why women have these babies by choice, fertility drugs, etc. and then give them to strangers to raise through childhood, and give them to schools to continue. Read John Gatto's excellent book "DUMBING US DOWN" to get more insight into public education. My kids were homeschooled for two years and then spent two years in private Waldorf School because they begged to try it out. Boy, do I regret those two years and what it did to my kids and our family! They are both back out and I am giddily skipping down the path of homeschooling again!!!!

Besides being a midwife/herbalist/childbirth educator , I have substitute taught, worked with delinquent youth, worked in group homes, ran a private daycare, etc. etc. and I have a LOT of insight into this by getting closely involved in families. I must say that we are such a materialistic society that we are more concerned with things than people. This is actually taught in the public schools now, in a round about way. They are working with kids on career mindedness in middle schools and preparing them to enter the capitalist market and make the most money they can. It sounds like they are educating, but when you think about it they are teaching how to make money to acquire THINGS.

When kids are factory farmed (which is how I view day care and institutionalized education....sorrry if I am offending anyone) they make their peers the center of their existence, not the family values. So, given a moral family with kids in school who see their kids "go wrong"....well, it is usually because the pressure to fit in with the peer s is more than the kids can take. It makes sense. If you spend most of you waking hours with adults who don't necessarily have your family's standards, or aren't allowed to express this in the classroom (separation of church and state), who are not committed to the child like the family, what do you think will happen? When these kids are then spending most of their waking hours with other kids and not with family....what do you expect?

When I used to have women with money in my old town saying I was lucky I could AFFORD to be home with my kids, I wanted to scream. Sometimes I did tell them off. AFFORD it? We live at poverty level! We used to have two $500 cars (we actually have one decent $4000 truck now. Wow! We have moved up!) and a hole in the ceiling over the stove. I couldn't cook in the rain. We worked our butts off to rehab that place and sold it to get out of debt and by the hovel we lovel out here in the country on 5 acres. I have struggled, been creative, and we have worked our butts off to afford it. Our tv for watching those occaisional movies is close to 20 years old! I don't think we have one new piece of furniture in our house, other than the mattresses we sleep on now and a deep freeze (both Christmas presents from family). We CHOOSE a life like this because family is most important. And, in the world FAMILY IS NOT THE PRIORITIY. My husband and I have a wonderful, loving relationship, our children are wonderful (I have strangers stop me and tell me how wonderful my kids are, how polite, etc.) and WELL SOCIALIZED (they know how to relate well to reasonable people, and are a bit confused by the insane folks they encounter).

But, the world has always been filled with selfish nasty folks. Wickedness, you can call it. Luckily, we can look and look and find the beautiful and good around us if we try, and then focus on that.

-- marcee king (thathope@mwt.net), August 17, 2001.

I think it boils down to respect. These people you speak about who dress revealingly and litter our beaches, sidewalks and roads do not respect themselves and therefore do not respect anything or anyone else. There is just so much that is wrong with our country these days that it makes your head spin. I personally think it started when the "women's movement" got going strong. Don't get me wrong, I agree that women should be paid on a par with men for the same job, but I think that some women felt that if they weren't out in the workforce, they weren't living up to their potential. It's different if a woman has to work to feed her family, but if that isn't a priority, I think a woman should stay home and raise her children, or don't have children. I know that when I started working after my children were born, I worried about them all the time. I didn't need to work outside the home, I just thought I should. For what? A better car, nicer clothes, manicures?

If a family actually takes time to figure out the costs to a family budget of a mother working outside the home, it usually isn't worth the effort. Will her job really get a family ahead? Consider: day care or babysitting fees, automobile costs including gas and upkeep, drycleaning bills, bought lunches and dinners, new clothes for the job, and on and on. Then consider the time lost driving to and from work. Being too tired to do laundry and cook dinner and also help with homework. Having no time to watch your child play soccer or baseball. No time to be involved with the children.

And, extra "voluntary contributions" to Uncle Sam. More income, more taxes.

Our culture is definitely going downhill. I was really rooting for a Y2K mess so our citizens would maybe understand what was really important in their lives, but that didn't happen. I'm afraid that something else might force people to their senses, or we're doomed.

I feel I can come down hard on women because I am a woman and feel that women, perhaps without realizing it, are doing the most harm to their families by not being home with their children to teach them the respect that all children need to learn. I blame men also for not acting like the head of the household and letting their wives and children run all over them. Are men afraid of being called unfeeling or something? They dont' have to be their childs "pal", they need to be fathers. My dad's word was law in our house, even if he was wrong. What's wrong with many men today?

Gosh, I've gone on a tangent. Sorry about that, but I agree that things have to change and it has to start with one family at a time. And respecting yourself. And not putting up with the garbage all around us.

-- Mary in East TN (barnwood@preferred.com), August 17, 2001.

The folks I work for have a 5 year old who dresses like Britney Spears (only at home). She'd like to dress that way all the time, but at least they have the sense not to let her out of the house that way. Anyway she has two posters of Britney about half dressed on her bedroom walls. I once asked them if they didn't think she dressed that way because she saw those posters every morning. They didn't see the connection, but I've seen this kid 5 days a week for 5 years and I can see it.

-- debra in ks (windfish@toto.net), August 17, 2001.

People who are interested might like to check out: http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005wbs

We/I really instituted "thread creep " on this one, but I think we covered some interesting ideas, and while I limited myself to addressing it from a sociological and anthropological aspect rather than a religious one, it still covers much of the same issues and comes to many of the same conclusions stated here.

It's in the Older Messages section, the Social Issues category, the "Guns as homestead protection?" thread.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), August 17, 2001.

Skip, That quote could apply to women also just not as much.

Cathy N.,Yes people have been people and mean doing has been mean doing from time begining which is why we as a country are going to fall away someday just like the rest.Another book you should get is "A History of Private life,From Pagan Rome to Byzantium" by Paul Veyne. you would be surprised at the similarities between them back then and our country from beginning to now.

Cheryl in KS, yes,that is part of the problem,alot of parents today have become so busy with their own life that they let kids do what they want because they feel guilty for not being around.

Sherry S., For some there is a difference between God and Jesus and some people still believe in God but have fallen from the Jesus returning scene.

daffodyllady, very good verse and that is what has happened to all great nations from time begin including the Romans. And I don't know why religion has become such a taboo subject these days. Its seems that if we are supposely so intelligent that we should as grown adults be able to talk calmly about religion but alas that is not the case. maybe we haven't come so far after all.

j.r.guerra, the media is a big big reason for alot of garbage that goes on these days,and the Clinton book is going to be some of it.

JOJ, I agree as bad as government can be if not for certain laws and such the big time polluters would have done us in long ago.

marcee king, I have come to find that the problem with moral standards of any kind (religious or pagen)is that to make them work you have to have punishment to go along with them. when you get away from punishment, morals begin to slip by the wayside as a natural act of humans.

Mary in East TN, YES!,YES!, respect is the key. most people are losing or do not even have respect for anything (parents,teachers,jobs,God,land,other people,etc.) and that is what is lacking. If you don't respect something or someone you usually end up dumping on them/it which is exactly what is happening today.

Don Armstrong,diane, I have thought about that also but talking with my wife about it and it was clearly a "make job". It was not a long drawn out thing, just a couple of sentences and that was that. I quote to you what was said in the truck going to the store: She said, "I feel like having some beer,can you get some?" I say, "I don't drink,so I certainly ain't getting any for you and besides what do you know about beer?" she says, "Me and my boyfriend drink my dad's beer all the time because it makes me want to suck him,and since he's not up here I figure I could have fun with you instead." I say, "I don't think so and you are stupid for even getting involve with doing that stuff." she says, "well if you don't want to have some fun I'll just find someone else, your lost" I said,"Your as stupid as they come" end of conversation! I never even went by her the rest of the vacation.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), August 17, 2001.

Um, yes, well, um.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), August 17, 2001.

leaves me speechless

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), August 17, 2001.

Tom, I don't think I'd be all that surprised about the similarities between Rome and modern U.S. society. That was part of the point I was making, that the sinful human heart is the same everywhere and in every era. What your niece said could have been said by a Greek, a Roman, a Sodomite (the original ones), or any prostitute from the beginning of time till now. Still, it saddens me to hear of young girls losing their purity and innocence so young and in such a tragic and rebellious fashion.

Also, to answer Marcee, just where do a person's moral standards come from? Whether you realize it or not, a certain sense of right and wrong is written on our hearts because we are God's creation. True, this conscience is strengthened or weakened according to how we are raised, but all the same it was put there by God.

JOJ, I would be interested in knowing what proof you have that our planet is overpopulated. Yes, there are way more people on this earth now than ever before, but does that make it overpopulated? What is the current ratio of persons to acres of land? I know what people were saying 10 years ago (give each person an acre or so and the entire earth population would fit in the state of Texas or something like that) but I don't know what the figures are now.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), August 18, 2001.

Yesterday, my husband and I spent the day at the County Fair and here is another view. I saw young people working the 4-H stand. I saw decently clothed girls working hard cleaning out the livestock pens. They were so polite and poised that it was a pleasure to see them! I never heard one indecent word the whole day! When it came time for judging the entries, we saw clean, neat young people and there was not a speck of makeup on any of them! Oh, there were a few with multiple earrings, but the earrings weren't large. Now, how come these young people are so great? I'll tell you why! THEIR PARENTS ARE ALSO INVOLVED IN A POSITIVE WAY! Whole families spend 5 days at the Fair, working the food booths, cleaning, judging and generally helping. These are families are are commited to their children and it certainly shows! I'm so proud to know these people that I could burst! I also know that there are unfortunate children that don't have good parenting. Well,it is up to them to find the right things to do. Why do I say that? My childhood wasn't exactly parent-involved and I survived! Maybe the path wasn't easy, but, if those children want to know and do the right things, they will find it! God bless!

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), August 18, 2001.

Gee, Mary in East TN and the rest of you folks that think Moms ought to stay home with their kids; what if the woman makes more money than her husband? Like in my case, about double; because I've taken the time and effort to go out and bust my butt to get an education that will enable me to get a good job with insurance benefits that aren't available through his job. Should he stay home and do the dishes and the laundry, because; after all, it scarcely pays him to go to work, what with the extra vehicle, and clothes and all that....

Funny how most people don't look at it that way.

Or maybe I should just give up my job and make do on his salary? Doesn't matter that the job I do (nursing) is important in terms of value to society. Wonder where we would be if all the women left the nursing field to stay at home with their kids? Don't see very many male nurses out there; and darn few of them are willing to wipe butts. Guess maybe we should go back to when all female teachers and nurses had to give up working when they got married?

I don't believe that the problem is that women work outside of the home. The problem is people who have children without considering that it is a full time commitment. My last year in nursing school, I worked full time, went to school, was a 4-H leader and classroom room mother and I think I missed maybe 2 of my daughter's ball games that year (volleyball and cheering for basketball). Her father (the ex) on the other hand, hasn't made it to any away games and hasn't stayed all the way through a full game in the past three seasons; and is not involved in school activities. But I'm a bad Mom because I work outside the home. I don't think so.

My mother told me many, many years ago that any woman who had more children that she, by herself, could feed, clothe, educate and nurture was a damn fool. That, among environmental concerns; led to my making the decision to have only one child - and it's a decison that I've never regretted. Too bad more people don't make the same choice.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), August 18, 2001.

I'd like to recommend a good book that touches on some of these subjects. From Freedom to Slavery- by Gerry Spence Mr. Spence is a down to earth lawyer from Wyoming that's represented a few high profile cases, defending Randy Weaver, and the family of Karen Silkwood are a few. He has written several books but I like this one the best.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 18, 2001.

ardie, You are correct on the 4-h section. I also noticed the same thing but what struck out at me the most was the wide gap there was between the people and kids of 4-h and the other fair people and fair goers. It was like 2 different worlds. Here one group of people busting butt and hauling manure,playing cards,families sitting around big fans in the sheds,etc. and the other group walking around littering the whole place and just being bummy and slutty. we sure are strange beings.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), August 18, 2001.

The downfall of society....well, let's see where should we start pointing the finger? I've driven myself nutts trying to figure out where America went wrong and the bottom line is that it's been wrong for a long, long time.

Lies were propagated and we believed it. My great grandpa was a preacher. Couldn't read a lick, not even the newspaper. Couldn't even sign his own name. He prayed that God would let him read the Bible and God did!

He raised his family during the great depression. When they first came out talking about the Soc. Sec. Numbers, he blew a gasket and told everybody that eventually this would end up being the mark of the beast. Well, he wasn't too far off the mark. SSN was never supposed to be used for ID purposes but it is one of the first things they use.

I remember when my sister and I were in school. Two grades apart. You'd think we were born on different planets! I was taught by the old values and she was taught Humanism. Yep, they taught my sister that she was a 'god' unto herself and she believed it too! She flat out told us all that she didn't have to listen to any authority figures. She was smarter than all of them.

I also remember during my early years at school they kept showing this film about how life would be by the year 2000.

Microwaves, big screen tv's, videophones, paying bills from your home, never having to leave the house to grocery shop and cars that didn't use fuel. I'm 40, that means that somebody out there in the government had already preplanned all of this since before I started school.

Scary, HUH? Okay, then there is the LIE told to us by who knows who. The lie was that we had to have a two income household. Well, I got one of those goofy little books from Cracker Barrel that tells you what was happening when you were born. Interestingly they gave the cost of goods as well as income. Check this out.

1959 Prices:

Average Income $5,016.00 New Car $2,250.00 New House $12,400.00 Loaf of bread .20 Gallon of Gas .25 Gallon of Milk $1.01

Now, the above prices seems to be extremely cheap; however, consider that the minimum wage was $1 an hour and there are 52 weeks in a year. That's $2,080.00 per year income.

Now, figure out how long it takes to work for those prices compared to how long it takes to work for today's prices. Not much difference!

So, why is there a need for two incomes in a family????

Because the government says so. When I was 14 I was in a private Christian school at a major seminary. We had a senator come down and address us and I remember the shock I felt as he was telling us what the goverment planned to implement.

They were going to run a test bill in Tennessee only. This test bill was up for vote and they wanted to see how much opposition they had against this one solitary idea. If it passed it would go nationwide, if it didn't they would find a way to force the situation into existence. Now, homeschoolers, get ready for this!

The proposal was that all parents would give their children over to the government to be raised and educated. The parents wouldn't have to see their children except on holidays and school vacations. The supposed purpose behind this plan was because it took "two incomes to raise a family and this would free up parents so that they wouldn't have to worry about their children".

The bill didn't pass obviously. The Christians in Tennessee raised such a havoc it was never brought up again. However, was that idea ever forgotten???

No, In Florida now they have year round school. Their religious studies include New Age theology and Hinduism. They are taught that gay relationships are acceptable and 'normal'. They are trained in the art of turning their parents over to the government for disciplining them. If the children miss school, the parents go to jail (this isn't a joke! This is really happening!)

There was a police officer there who had a daughter in a wheel chair and two other children. The daughter in the wheel chair threatened their lives, tried to kill one of the younger siblings with a knife and a myriad of other nightmares.

She told me that 'they', the governing authorities, told her that if she ever tried to discipline the child in any way she would be brought up on abuse charges and sent to prison.

When a Nation refuses to accept God as its authority, it teaches its subjects that there is no authority that is trustworthy.

Now, we have the New Age movement and all of those greenies that worship 'mother earth'. Their solution is to get rid of everything of God (especially Christians) to purify the earth. The 'goddess' worshippers are winning this fight and its a shame. Instead of the church taking dominion, they are leaving.

As far as our kids having a pleasent world to live in after we are gone, I don't really believe this place is gonna last that long.

-- Stephanie Nosacek (pospossum@earthlink.net), August 18, 2001.

I sure wish people would stop changing their names, it just gets too confusing.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), August 18, 2001.

Who is changing names??

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), August 19, 2001.

In defense of us fellow "greenies" who also happen to be non- Christians, I am one of the most moral, ethical, compassionate and patriotic supportors of a real republic here in America, and a voting Libertarian.

I happen to have Buddist beliefs, it does not make me a "godless" and moral-less left-wing socialist idiot. You can be "green", Libertarian, and a conservative non-Christian all at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive.

I take offense at those close-minded folk who perpetuate the myth that America is going to hell in a hand basket because of the presense of non-Christians in government and in society in general.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), August 19, 2001.

Gee, isn't it wonderful how kind and loving "christians" can bash non- christians on this forum and get away with it?

I bet you'd just like to burn me at the stake-wouldn't you, Stephanie?

With a big wet kiss to you, Stephanie, from this evil baby- sacrificing, earth-worshipping new-ager!

-- evil new-ager (hiding.from@religious.extremists), August 20, 2001.

I have to agree with Annie, it's not the 'non-christians' per se, it's much more the liberal socialist "new-agers". It just so happens that most of those reject Christianity and more importantly the morals that religion and other religions teach. There's an element in our society now, helped along by pop-culture and the media that promote dysfunction. Control over the masses in the future is their ultimate goal. And the liberal left wing socialists are behind it or at least the 'useful idiots' as Lenin wrote about. For many young people it's now cool to be shockingly dysfunctional and immoral. It's promoted in the music, the tv shows, magazines, movies, even our schools. Things that people 30 years ago would have been ashamed of are now worn like a badge of honor in these circles. I'm sure this will make me sound like one of the "right-wing extremists" they love to scream about but at times I secretly hope that society falls apart in some apocalyptic manner so these people will come to the reality of how wrong they are. I'm guessing that's the only way this trend will ever change. I'm non-religious and follow the Libertarian platform. If only the Libertarians could get exposure (www.LP.org) I'm sure many would hop on. Most people I know, the 20 and 30somethings only believe what network tele-vision and pop-culture tells them they should believe. And most, as long as they're left with half their income after taxation to go have fun with, don't really care what's happening in our world or the direction society has taken. It's going to get alot worse before it can get better.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 20, 2001.

Oy vey! I'm a Christian and I have some friends who are not. They know right from wrong! Being a Christian has nothing to do with good taste.Let's not down grade this forum with name calling and finger pointing! God bless!

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), August 20, 2001.

I guess I have a different take on this. I've thought about this problem before, and all I can come up with is....most people are downright lazy. That simple. Too lazy to rear their own children.. let someone else do it, to lazy to cook a good meal for the family..get it at McDonalds, to lazy to question things that are thrown at them..don't find out the facts, just go with the status quo. People used to work hard and so did kids, most people had no time to get into trouble. Now, we have all the modern conviences to make our lives more convienient. Ha.

Since moving into town, I have been amazed at some of the young kids. Next door their lives a 13 year old girl that easily looks in her 20's. Her parents both work, but that is not the problem. Every day in the summer, she and 10 or so of her friends, sat on the porch all day. As the summer progressed, the kids got rowdier. They threw stones at cars passing by, got mouthier, and the girl and her boyfriend should have just gotten it over with and gone and gotten a hotel room. The problem? No supervision because the parents cared less (to lazy to care), and the kids were obviously bored. The kids would not have been on that porch all summer if they had jobs to do at home. Why didn't they? Too much "trouble" for the parents to argue with the kids? Too much "trouble" for the parents to even make a phone call to see where their own kids were and what they were doing?

We all talk about our own childhoods and growing up, and what is the predominant theme in them? Working. Whether it be around the house, on the farm or a part time job in the neighborhood. A child that learns work, is also taught responsibility, care of their and other people belongings, time management (gotta get the work done to go out and play), compassion (mowing the lawn of an elderly neighbor), and the list goes on and on....

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), August 20, 2001.

Oh, yes, other Annie, you hit the nail right on the head there! Lack of personal responsibilty is THE PROBLEM with society in general, no responsibilty in raising your children, no responsibilty in having and caring about your job, no responsibilty in "bothering" to even vote to make a change in our government.

You are right, folks just don't care about anything anymore, unless it is how many channels they can pick up on their cable or sattelite dishes for their precious TV, which rules their very lives and totally shapes their thinking, "1984" is here, we just haven't fully realized it yet!!! TV is mind control and brain-washing at it's fullest extent, done willingly and eagerly by the American public!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), August 20, 2001.

Polly - I don't necessarily think that it should always be the mother who should stay home with the kids. There are lots of stay-at-home Dads out there who do an outstanding job. I do wholeheartedly believe that at least one parent should stay at home and take care of the kids. In single parenting situations, of course, that isn't a realistic possibility, and I think that everyone, single parent and kids alike, suffer because of it.

I just believe that our sick society promotes the belief that both parents must work - and devote the majority of their time to their jobs - in order to get more things and have a "better" life. We've forgotten as a society what is truly important and of the utmost value - and that is our children, and their upbringing.

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), August 20, 2001.

Tom your words And that does not include having a 13 yr old neice make a play for me while going to the store.(If one of my daughters were to do that she would not be living today!)

Therein lies the difference. You have brought up your kids differently. And I agree wholeheartedly.

I've read this thread and come to this conclusion

WE

are responsible for raising our children to be better than the examples they see at school, church, tv, movies etc. And They are to become examples for other children thereby helping others to see the difference.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), August 24, 2001.

Cheryl, I agree with you on some things, it would be a wonderful world if one parent could stay home with the kids - IF they wanted to. I've worked the whole time my daughter was growing up, but I didn't "warehouse" her in some day care center; I paid a very good friend who shared our values to take care of her while I was at work (and Jes still sends her flowers every Mother's Day); and her father and I arranged our schedules at work to make sure that she was with one of us as much as possible. She also spent a lot of my work time on weekends with my parents; and then, after my Mama died, I swear that my needing Pop to take care of Jessie was the one thing that pulled him out of his depression. I also sent Jes to public school, but I read all her school books (never did understand those math ones after about the 6th grade!) and we talked about things and went to museums and plays and all sorts of things on our own.

My Mama also worked outside the home, as did most of my Aunts and my Grandmothers when they were younger (Big family). My Aunt who didn't work outside the home babysat me while my Mama worked; and most of the other cousins were cared for by relatives also. None of us have managed to end up in prison and we've only got one (reformed) alcoholic in the family (Vietnam vet), no drug addicts, none of us are on welfare that I know of; and while there have been a few "premature" pregnancies, those babies haven't been aborted, but have been taken care of by the family.

That's why I get so darn aggravated when someone blames the working mother's for the mess we're in; when it's parents who don't parent that deserve the blame - whatever their excuse is.

I also don't think it's a religious problem. Very few mwmbers of my family are members of any organized religion - doesn't keep us from knowing right from wrong; and teaching it to our kids.

Annie and Annie - yeah, what you said!

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), August 24, 2001.