What do you think of the practice of sending kids to so-called "boot camps" when they are out of control? There are a couple of different issues here.

First, there are boot camp facilities where kids are sent by juvenile authorities. You would think those would be fine, but a kid from Sacramento was killed in one a couple of years ago, in a situation that was very similar to the one I linked to today.

Second, there are groups like Outward Bound, which I think has a pretty good reputation. Sort of. Basically summer camp, only with pain and suffering.

Finally, there are unregulated boot camps in Mexico and other countries, as well as barely-regulated boot camps in the U.S. (usually Arizona, sometimes Utah or elsewhere) where parents send their kids without intervention from juvenile authorities.

Is the problem with these camps only a matter of degree? Is a less strict or better-run camp okay, as long as the kids aren't, you know, dying? Or is there a fundamental problem with shipping your kids off for someone else to whip them into shape if you can't?

I just don't get the feeling that the parents who send their kids to these programs -- any of them, including Outward Bound -- are really touchy-feely parents to begin with; I would imagine that it's mostly very strict parents who send their kids to boot camp. The whole idea makes me really uncomfortable.

What do you think?

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Answers

These places scare the shit out of me.

I agree with you that it's the very strict parents who send their kids to them. And I can't see how a loving parent would pay beaucoup bucks to have their child abused and mistreated horribly. These places usually aren't regulated, are in foreign countries, etc. What part of "not safe" do they not get here?

My mom's boss has a "bad girl" daughter who was sent to one of these places. To put it bluntly, it didn't make a damn bit of difference.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

gah.

When my daughter was going through her two years or so of constant stealing, getting violent, drinking etc, etc, I was feeling terribly guilty for both 1) fantasizing about being able to take a break from the 24/7 hell she was putting us through and 2) for NOT sending her away where her sisters wouldn't have to live in fear.

We didn't, although we did get the police involved a time or two. She finally left home, bottomed way out (and got close to winding up dead) and figured it out for herself that that wasn't the way she wanted to live - she's doing fine now even though her opportunities as an adult have been reduced somewhat as a result. We're all aware that we got profoundly lucky - none of the outcome was due to deciding to do the 'right thing', just pure luck.

If someone had approached us, saying the right words and appearing to understand how to handle someone in that situation in a way that would increase the odds of her growing up at all, and growing up to be a decent adult and not having her sisters totally loathe her later on - none of which we had a lot of hope for for awhile there - yea, I might have done it. It would have seemed like a better answer than having her disappear for four months and living in hell, which is what did happen.

I'm glad we didn't have the option, because we might have taken it, hell we might have hung onto it like it was a freaking liferaft - not because we don't care, and not because we're overly strict, but because that is one lonely place to be in and there is usually a family full of children to consider, not just the one. Sometimes, doing the best you can possibly do is just selecting which bad option among all the bad options available will cause the least amount of damage overall.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Either The Progressive or In These Times did a good article on these boot camps sometime in the last year. I can't remember which month it was, but I remember reading it on the Seattle Metro bus so it was sometime after September 2000. Apparently there have been a slew of injuries and deaths at these places.

The problem is these sorts of things only teach about control and dominance. In fact, so does the military which is why there are more cases of domestic violence in military families than in non-military families. What you learn in boot camp or in prison isn't how to deal with other people or become a productive member of society, but that a strong person can dominate a weak one, that someone with weapons to back them up can make other people obey.

So not only do they not fucking work, but it seems that people who get killed or injured do so just so some guard can feel powerful, can "show who's boss".

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

I think it is a matter of degree. Mighty Big TV woman might not have liked Outward Bound, but I know a ton of people who had their lives changed by one month on that program. I'm sure there are problems with it, but if they suck, then they all do, because those people are well trained. And I don't know if any milk should be on an outward bound trip. Sorry. You're going into the woods, not to drink lattes.

I think we have a general problem in this country of hearing about how the military or a month in the woods changed some people's lives and assuming that will work for everyone. I'm all for picking yourself up by the bootstraps but not if you then get a 100lb anvil thrown on top of you.

That said, any parent who sends their kid to Mexico has got to be seriously at the end of their rope. or delinquent. But its hard to make generalized assumptions. Some are just very desperate. Thanks, Renee for providing your experience.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

sorry, I meant Lynda! Didn't have the window open when I wrote this!

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Some more info on boot camps, etc.

An article from Outside Magazine.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Just out of curiosity, what does Jenny Jones have to do with this boot camp story? I think I missed something.

It's hard for me to be sympathetic with parents who send their kids off to these camps, apparently without doing any research (although one story I read did suggest that the camp owners badly misrepresented the type of "discipline" that would go on there). However, it's also hard for me to judge these people when I don't know what their child was like or anything about them at all, really.

I will say that if I were this child's mother, I would go find the ex- Marine who was in charge of this so-called "boot camp" and fucking shoot him right between the eyes. Or better yet, in the stomach, because I hear that's a more painful death. Then I'd leave HIM out in the desert with no water and make him eat dirt and see how well HE likes it.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Jenny Jones has an ongoing series of shows where she sends problem kids off to her bootcamp and they come back happy and perfect. I wasn't aware of it before, but apparently Montel Williams and Sally Jesse Raphael do the same thing.

Uh, don't ask me how I know that Jenny Jones thing.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Obviously you read about it [Jenny Jones] in one of your high-powered lawyer magazines.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Having been a sibling in a situtation much like Lynda B describes, with the added attraction of frequent physical abuse by my brother, I probably would have cheered mightly had Mom and Dad sent him to boot camp.

I think basically good parents can have an uncontrollable child. You have to consider the safety and well being of other children in the family. If one of your children is a threat (physically or otherwise), you have to take steps.

Boot camp would be a last restort for me. It is extreme, and I'm not convinced that it has any long-term results.

Dying is a harsh punishment for slashing your mother's tires. If that's the worst thing he did, I can't understand why boot camp was the optimal solution.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

That last paragraph above doesn't sound right. I meant to say that the article didn't say what other things he had done and what other options had been explored.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

It's a hard call. One of my bosses, definitely a strict-parent type, shipped his 14-year-old son off to an Outward-Bound type boot camp on the advice of the boy's doctors. The boy was suffering from severe depression and had been suicidal, and was not responding to medication. I know it was something that my boss really agonized over. I overheard him on the phone to his wife one evening, basically saying "What choice do we have?" He seemed to think he could either hospitalize his son on long-term suicide watch or take his last chance to bring the depression into control.

I don't think the camp they sent this boy too was severe, but it involved a 5-week program living under the stars in Utah back country. The outcome was pretty good. He's been able to go to a residential facility that is more like boarding school than a hospital, and he has not had any more suicidal incidents. I think in this case it was a brave choice by the parents that gave the kid a chance to escape an institutionalized life.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Alleine,

My understanding of outward bound is that it is a more voluntary thing than the boot camps, and the idea is to give people an adventure experience and teach self-reliance and teamwork and stuff... not to teach discipline and control and obedience.

If my understanding is correct, then I don't think they can be compared to the "back in control" style boot camps.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

OB runs a range of programs. I've had some experience with them as a participant, and extensive experience with them as a grantor. In both cases, I was pretty impressed with their professionalism. In fact, if anyone on this board ever has a chance to participate in an OB program with a group of friends or a group of total strangers, I'd highly recommend it. (If it's with co-workers, well . . some folks risk getting dropped on their asses . . .).

~

As to the larger issue of "wilderness camps", I believe they definitely have a place. And that should be a closely scrutinized and carefully considered place. I've had friends forced into those programs, and saw instances in which it was an utter waste (other than he now knows how to efficiently gut something- and that is not a good thing), and others where the transformation was awe- inspiring.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I'd like to second David and Curtis's point. Outward Bound is a large organization that runs a variety of programs. A very small percentage of them are designed specifically for troubled teenagers, most of whom have been in trouble with the law as well as their families. The vast majority of them are summer adventure programs for both teenagers and adults. Some students are sent by their parents against their will (which was also true at the fancy residential summer camp I used to work at), but most are excited to be there. The courses are certainly challenging, but they're by no means a boot camp. There's plenty of food, a huge focus on safety, and an emphasis on teaching skills and leadership and empowering the students to live in the wilderness. Given what I know about the training and experience required for staff on their standard courses (basically they only accept the cream of the crop), I can only assume that their special population courses require even more expertise to run.

I personally haven't worked much with troubled teenagers, but I can see how a wilderness program could be beneficial. To me, good programs are about empowering students to believe in themselves and what they can accomplish. All of us, troubled or not, tend to get into ruts of behaving in certain ways in familiar settings. Being in an environment that's completely different than they find at home can give students a chance to develop new behaviors, since they have no previous expectations for what's appropriate in the new situation. I know it's not going to work for everyone, but I've seen it make a difference for students in the past.

The point, I think, is that not all programs are alike. If I were a parent with a kid I wanted to send on a wilderness course (regardless of whether it's a course aimed at adventure or rehabilitation), you'd better be sure I'd be calling the program, talking to references, and asking lots of questions. I'm sure there are some horrifying programs out there, but I'm sure there are also some wonderful ones. I would hope that the horror stories we've been hearing lately will encourage parents to ask the right questions, rather than give up on the concept altogether.

As far as the "shipping kids off" issue, I think there's truth on both sides. I don't at all believe it's inappropriate for parents to ask for help with a difficult kid. Like I said, I think a change of environment can be a very healthy thing. If parents are having trouble with a kid, by all means bring in someone else. Whether it's a therapist or a sports coach or a teacher or a wilderness instructor, someone with a different perspective on your kid can work wonders. Remember when you were a kid and your parents asked you to do something, and you said "No, I won't"? And then couldn't back down and do it because that would mean losing face? It's the same idea.

That being said, no one - in a week or a month or a year - is going to create permanent changes. If you ship your kid off for a summer and expect them to come back "fixed" without any involvement from you at all, you're kidding yourself. Even assuming the kid gets a lot out of the program, you have to be willing to acknowledge and work with that change. A good program that's claiming to rehabilitate troubled kids ought to be able to suggest ways of helping the new behaviors "stick" once the kid comes home, I would think.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I think the point has been well made that there is a huge difference between those horrible boot kamps and the sort of program that helps kids realize that they have some control over their own destiny.

My parents put my younger sister in juvenile hall as an out of control minor because she spent the night with the boyfriend she wasn't even supposed to see. She was a mainly a good kid, no stealing or drug abuse or anything, but willful. They put my step- brother in a tough-love program for ditching school too much and smoking. He came back tranformed from a nice kid who didn't like to go to school into someone with anger-management problems (he tends to hit and has two restraining orders on him right now.)

Then there is my own stepson who went off to Blue Cross Leadership Camp in the mountains and came back transformed from a whiny child into the first incarnation of the confident fellow he is now.

I guess my point is that anything that teaches a troubled kid that they actually have a choice about their own behavior is good. It will help them make that transition that Lynda spoke about and I saw in my own kid. Anything that teaches them to behave because otherwise they will be brutally punished is bad. They are still out of control if no one is watching. They still think of themselves as bad people.

Seems simple as that.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001