I'm looking for advice from those who may have been in similar circumstances. We have owned our property for 11 years, and it adjoins property previously owned by my grandmother and now by my mother. This complicates everything. There is a small stream flowing on Mom's property and a dirt lane that serves about 20 properties past ours, including ours. What was once a farm lane through fields became the road/right of way when Mom deeded it to the other landowners about 3 years ago. By that time the road had been used for 100 plus years as a right of way and couldn't be closed. Having lived here for 11 years, we have seen numerous small floods and several big floods, messy, but never getting into our house or buildings. Our house has stood for 90 years and never had water in it. Three years ago, these other landowners decided to place a bridge over the small creek, changing the creek to make 2 90 degree turns to go under the bridge. For three years we have had a drought, but June 22, we had 9 inches of rain in about 2 hours, bringing the total to 12 inches in three days. Guess what, water everywhere, in our cars and outbuilding, but thankfully not in the house. The bridge is about 100 feet from our house, with the creek about 60 feet away. We tried to fight the bridge in the first place, but not owning the land, and with my mother giving the right of way to others, there was little we could do. Has anybody had any experience with this sort of thing? Are there state and federal agencies we should contact? Is there some law prohibiting others from doing something on their property that puts ours in danger? Water did not come in my house, but went all under it and around, and from our past experience, it is only a matter of time before another flood. I truly believe that this bridge is the problem. Help! Let me add that in the past 5-6 years, we have had what the local officials deem 2 100 years floods and one flood deemed a 500 year flood, meaning that floods of this madnitude only occur that often. There was also a devastating flood in 1985 that made all the record books. Never before last Friday had the water gotten as high, even through the four previous bad floods. We are not willing to let our property be damaged, and do not want to move. Also, none of the people who put in the bridge live here, not even my mother, and they can't appreciate seeing the flood happer, or what it is like to carry your small child out of here to safety. Any advice is welcome. Thanks!

-- Denyelle Stroup (dedestroup@hotmail.com), June 30, 2001

Answers

I dont know who to contact for something like this. but i would think about putting in a small dike along the creek. It might be more work then its worth, but it might keep water away from your home. just an idea. Mike

-- MikeinKS (mhonk@oz-online.net), June 30, 2001.

Thanks for your idea--we have thought of that, but it would be expensive, and really, the road and creek lay in my front yard, with not much room for a dike, plus, it would look bad, and we'd still need an entrance for our existing driveway, making an opening in the dike. Let me say that before the bridge, the flood water could spread out through the roadway and an adjacent field and just didn't get so much force going. In building the bridge, they removed all the large trees that had stabalized the creek edge, and replaced it with fill dirt (in front of our house, but on my mother's land) Where the trees and grass were left, there is debris, but not so much wash-out damage. I don't feel that these folks put this bridge in properly with any of this in mind, plus now the area under the bridge is packed with drbris and stones--guess what will happen with even a moderate amount of rain? I quess I am asking if anyone knows if there are guidelines and regulations governing bridge construction or if a couple of guys with a dozer can just do this. I live in Virginia, and here the state owns all the waterways, even creeks. Farmers are only allowed to spread so much manure on fields because of the run-off into the Chesapeake, etc. There are laws in place for many other things, and as much as I hate government intervention, I just wonder if there is any protection for folks from something the adjacent property owners decide to do. Anyone?

-- Denyelle Stroup (dedestroup@hotmail.com), June 30, 2001.

I would check with the DNR about this. It is likely that they should not have been allowed to change the course of the creek.

Check with a lawyer. If something they have done on another property causes damage to your property, you may have some recourse. Also just having a right of way doesn't automatically give them the right to build a bridge. I would ask my lawyer about that as well.

Good luck.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

Contact the county engineer, he may be able to resolve your problem. It sound as if the area under the bridge is not large enough to carry the volume of water away. The county engineer can easily determine this.

You could also try the State depoart of natural resources or state EPA, changing the flow of a stream may have require permits. Another source is FEMA. I know "we are from the goverment and are here to help".... but in this case they might be able to.

-- Rich (pntbeldyk@wirefire.com), June 30, 2001.

Denyelle:

What state and county do you live in? Local regulations make a big difference as to what kind of help you can expect from government agencies. Was the bridge work performed with permits from the county? Is this a fish bearing stream? If the work was not permitted and the stream is habitat to any threatened or endangered species of fish or other critter, then you can turn the violators in to your local code enforcement officer and they will deal with the problem. No one has the right to flood your property. The local regulation of streams and wetlands are based on the U.S. Corp of Engineers Manual so enforcement is pretty much the same everywhere. Try talking to the County Biologist in the County Planning Department.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), June 30, 2001.

Denyelle, Get a Lawyer ! Politicians and public workers dont want to have to think,Get a lawyer , You will get more results and get them immediately.I know most people dont want to cause hard feelings, and we make jokes about lawyers, but there are times when we need them. I AM NOT A LAWYER Be good, and good luck . Big george

-- George Wilson (cwwhtw@aol.com), June 30, 2001.

I had a problem with a neighbor putting in a smaller, higher culvert under his driveway which caused my property to flood out (I am upstream from him). There was another neighbor who was also affected, they worse than us (their basement flooded out since they have a spring that was backflowing since it couldn't drain properly). The other affected neighbors, my husband and I sat down and worked out a solution. The neighbor with the culvert agreed to pay as much as it would cost for him to replace the existing ,offending culvert. We (the adversely affected neighbors) split the bill to have a second culvert put in along side the first. This did resolve our problems. It did cost us money for a problem we did not create, but it cemented good relations between all of us. That was definately worth it!! I don't know if anyone else was affected by this bridge construction, but you should get some ideas as to what could repair the damage then speak to the neighbor about it. Tell them what you told us about taking on no water with the 100 year and 500 year floods. Offer to pick up some of the tab if they would repair the damage they've caused. Then, if they won't deal, sue for damages. It's the American way.

-- Sheryl in ME (radams@sacoriver.net), June 30, 2001.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Much of the problem lies in the fact that everyone here is well aware of the problems this bridge has caused us. Everyone has to drive right by the property where we live to get to their own property, and you can't miss the mess. This property has been in my family since the 1740's and most of the adjacent landowners have had their property in their family as long. We are related to nearly everyone involved, so we are not the new folks moving in and changing things. We had a legal mediation in which we offered an alternative right-of-way to the other landowners, ammounting to about 1/2 acre of our land for a new road to be built, far from the creek and the front of our house, but not adding any real distance to the lane (accross a field on higher ground, no stream or flooding to contend with) We were turned down because "the road has always been here" etc. These are not very well- educated people, nor are they prone to change. They also wanted access for large logging trucks and did log off several hundred acres up the hollow. That makes flooding even more likely because now those trees are gone and nothing holds back the water. As I said, it's been 3 years since the bridge, and 3 years since we have had such abundant rainfall as this year. It could be years before another flood, but it could be next week. We do have a meeting with the biologist from the local office of the Army Corps of Engineers on Thursday July 5. Maybe he can offer advice, but he was here when the bridge went in, and didn't seem to be knowledgeable about design, etc. We will look into the other agencies you folks have mentioned. County engineer is one I hadn't thought of. I guess we have one. Oh yes, we live in Rockingham County Virginia. The area is growing by leaps and bounds, proclaimed to be one of the fastest growing areas in VA. Sad, because we have some of the prime farm land in the state, and it's being paved over rapidly. I am terribly emotionally invested in this property because my children are the 11th generation to live here. The family has held it since a land patent from King George the Third in the early 1700's and it's home. I'm not willing to give up.

-- Denyelle Stroup (dedestroup@hotmail.com), July 01, 2001.

Years attached to the phrase "flood plane" are somewhat misleading. A 100 year flood plane means you have a 1/100 chance of being flooded every year. You may be flooded 5 years in a row, or you may not be flooded for several hundred years.

If the last ten years are any indication, the weather is getting more bizarre.

cheers,

-- Max (Maxel@inwindsor.com), July 01, 2001.

go to the FEMA/ERSI website and look up your property on the flood plain maps.

-- Rich (pntbeldyk@wirefire.com), July 01, 2001.

Sorry here is the site

http://www.esri.com/hazards/makemap.html

-- Rich (pntbeldyk@wirefire.com), July 01, 2001.

You need to get a lawyer on this case. Anytime adjoinning landowners do something that will have a effect on your property, than they have to fix the problem with there money.

-- Russell Hays (rhays@sstelco.com), July 01, 2001.

Denyelle, hello from Augusta County! I am familiar somewhat with your area. ( I wont tell what your address is.) Um, you might wish to use a made up name in the future when conversing on the net, as I found all about you easily in the phone book. Its a good thing I am a "relatively good" person. lol

I hope you get the problem solved satisfactorily. I would get another lawyer if the one you have now isn't panning out. One possible recourse is to build a sub-par pond with the intention of creating a dam burst in case of flood. lol! No, forget I mentioned it.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 01, 2001.

Hi Denyelle,

Your first stop should be to the County Engineer. They usually know all the regulations regarding land use AND who to contact when things go wrong. It seems inappropriate for You to invest time and money in the solution since You tried to avoid problems when offering the half acre for an alternate roadway.

Even if Your neighbor had permission to install the bridge, they would be responsible for upkeep and maintenance since it's on a private lane. The only way around that for them would be if it's the only possible access route to thier home, which it doesn't sound like.

Give the County Engineer a chance before going with a lawyer. The CE usually has the authority to enforce any regulations already in place and can probably get quicker action than a suit. Most lawyers would have to consult anyway unless they specialize in land transactions.

Hope this helps. Please let us know what happens. Good Luck!!!

Randle

-- Randle Gay (rangay@hotmail.com), July 02, 2001.

We have a meeting with the rep from the Army Corps of Engineers (he's a biologist!) I can't find a county engineer listed under any of the county gov't listings--anyone know what agency he would represent? Also, this time, we didn't sustain any real permanant damage-yet. The water was just under the house, not in it (never mind that that has NEVER happened before, water even under the house like this.) I think I'm hearing from some of the officials ( my hubby is doing the contacting and feeding me the info) that until we have some real damage, they can do nothing. We finally have the money to put into some remodeling and improving that we have always wanted to do in order to live out our lives here, and I'm leery of investing any more time or money with this hanging over our heads. My family thinks I'm being unreasonable, that the flood is just an act of God and be glad we weren't hurt. So I get no support there, even though my mom gave these guys the right-of-way. Yes, I'm furious that this has happened, and my family (siblings) see this as a grudge. But none of them can see that this mountain of stone and steel in front of my house has acted as a dam when the water came. The water might not come again like that for years, but in the 11 years we have owned this property, this is the 4th flood, and I know this was the worse. 9 inches of rain in 2 hours is bad, but we have had hurricane totals exceeding that amount over several days and the flooding was not that bad, not around the house. It's bad enough to have to contend with all this without having to contend with my city-dwelling siblings who just can't see it. By the way, the guys who put in the bridge just use their property to hunt and log, they do not live here, and the other dwellings on the road are on higher ground than us. Whether the bridge is there or not, the road itself will always be subject to flooding since for most of its course, it paralells the stream, about 1 1/2 miles total. This flood was bad enough to make a blurb in USA Today for the state of VA one day last week.

-- Denyelle Stroup (dedestroup@hotmail.com), July 03, 2001.

First of all, you need to verify whether or not the creek was so high because of the bridge or because of the extra rainfall.

If there is a stream gauge on the creek, (check with local officials and the US Geological Survey), you can correlate the flood levels at your house with those at the stream gauge.

If no stream gauge exists, try to locate someone nearby your place, who is not affected by the bridge, and find out if this recent flood was unusually high at their place. If not, it's a good bet that the bridge is responsible.

What kind of debris are you talking about? If it's trees and such, that may account for the stones, in which case the bridge obviously didn't have enough cross sectional area beneath it to successfully allow passage of the debris. If the debris is merely stones and mud, and such, the problem is likely not the bridge. I wish I could see it. I have over twenty years of experience with this type of problem, and it's a bit hard to make a fair conclusion from this distance.

I don't intend this as an insult, in any way, but it is very instructive that you say, "as much as I hate government intervention, I just wonder if there is any protection for folks from something the adjacent property owners decide to do". This is a very common attitude about government. I see it all the time. It seems to be human nature to complain about government regulations, until we need them to work in our favor. I'm as guilty as anyone. But I think we should learn from this type of experience. Sometimes government is the only way to solve problems, short of gunfire or fisticuffs!

Here in Oregon, there are several agencies who would throw fits about these folks changing the course of the creek, and it would also have been necessary to have an engineer calculate the clearances needed to allow at least a 100 year flood flow pass without backing up water onto upstream properties. Also the Corps of Engineers may be interested in this.

In my county, here in Josephine County Oregon, we only have a population of 75,000 or so, and we "can't afford" a county engineer. You said, "that until we have some real damage, they can do nothing". NOT! If that's the attitude your county mounties are adopting, I would have to agree with the folks recommending a lawyer. But you will definitely need to be able to demonstrate that the bridge is an actual problem, as I was trying to explain above.

In your most recent post, you say, "9 inches of rain in 2 hours is bad, but we have had hurricane totals exceeding that amount over several days and the flooding was not that bad, not around the house". The total rainfall, especially in a small stream situation, is not nearly as important as such a major rainfall intensity such as you mentioned (nine inches in two hours) The thing with large rainfall totals over a few days, is that the water has a few days to flow through the bridge opening. When this huge concentration of rain falls in a couple of hours, it has to pass under the bridge in a short period of time--more cfs (cubic feet per second). It's a much more serious problem, potentially.

I'm interested in hearing how you make out on this, and am happy to give you further advice, if you are interested. To get my real email address, just change "eco" to "echo".

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), July 03, 2001.

Hi Joe. I'm sure a guage is not in place on this creek. It's mostly very small, you could wade across anywhere and it's not knee deep. Until 3 years ago, all traffic crossed a ford 3-4 inches deep. Cars and pick-ups had no problem at all, unless the water was up, in which case, those of us who needed to get out took necessary steps and parked our cars out and walked, or occasionally drove across the field. It didn't happen often and we all just lived with it. These guys who own the land on up the hollow wanted to log it and make hay with huge machinery which would drag in the ford, due to the length of the machinery and trucks. They wanted a bridge. To my knowledge, no permit was issued for the bridge, because the county told us they don't issue those permits, most people put in a low water bridge. This is a fairly high metal bridge, wooden bedded, on concrete abuttments, poured in place, and the bridge set. It is very similar to the ones our state road folks would use on public roads. My feeling is that all was installed correctly EXCEPT to make the bridge fit and make the road continue straight through the ford, they made the creek a new bed, taking a 90 degree turn under the bridge and another 90 degree turn as it exits the bridge. Too much water hits the large stones and fill they placed to turn the creek and it just backs up, some going under the bridge, but much of it backing out and seeking a lower path--our yard. As I said, I had misgivings about the design or lack thereof, when the bridge went in, but that was 3 years ago, and the only thing to do was wait for high water and see. Here again, these guys who put in the bridge didn't see what was happening as it was happening, but only the next morning when the creek was still in our yard, but had basically cut itself back into it's old bed. I wish I could share a photo or drawing, but I can't. However, even in the chaos of evacuating the house, I had my hubby snap a couple of pictures (the camera was laying there) and the next morning we did do some video of the area and water before anyone had a chance to clean up or try to repair the road. Maybe that will help. Imagine a creek and road running with the creek on one side, paralel for about 1 1/2 miles, the creek lying about 1-3 feet lower than the road, with the road crossing the creek at about a 30 degree angle and continuing on, the road rising over a distance of 150 yards about a vertical distance of 20 feet to meet a highway. When they bridged the creek, they stopped it, turned it 90 degrees under the bridge, and turned it back 90 degrees to resume its course. The creek flowing hard just can't do it, it wants to go on straight and it's only spillway is to one side, my side. The lowest place along the road on the approach to the bridge is right in front of my house about 60 feet from where I am sitting, looking at it right now. I know the 9 inches of rain was extreme in a short time, but 2-3 inches could make this happen again right now. I've lived here 11 years and seen it, plus I spent much time in my childhood playing in this stream. My grandmother who was 87 when she died almost 4 years ago could attest that through her lifetime never had the water entered this house. My great grandfather milled the lumber to build this house, and grandma's cousin lived her life here and died in 1987, never having had water in the house. Everyone around here involved knows this too. I am hoping that after our meeting with the county rep from Army Corps on Thursday, I have some news to share. Thanks to everyone.

-- Denyelle Stroup (dedestroup@hotmail.com), July 03, 2001.

Denyelle,

Do you have a scanner available? If so, Tripod has an excellent site where you can get a free webpage - it takes just a few minutes to set it up and you could post your pics there.

Tripod's homepage:

http://www.tripod.lycos.com/

By posting the pics on the website, you might be able to get more definitive answers from others. At any rate, good luck!

-- Deb Mc. (trollsabout@not.now), July 04, 2001.

One of the usual steps in the process of determining the necessary cross-sectional opening for a new bridge is to check the opening of the nearest existing bridges upstream and downstream from the proposed new bridge. Obviously, you would not want the new bridge opening sized smaller than those adjacent to it.

In our area, the county engineer would have no authority in the matter.

If enough debris plugs the opening of the new bridge, Mother Nature might solve the problem for you by washing the bridge off of it's abutments.

-- Paul (hoyt@egyptian.net), July 06, 2001.

Hi again Denyelle.

If You can't find a phone number for the County engineer under Your county, try the county seat listing ie look under city of Columbus instead of Fairfield County. If that doesn't work, try a trip to the county courthouse and ask around. Another possibility is contacting the county commissioners and asking for help or a reference.

Good luck with the Corps of Engineers. We'll be anxious to hear what happens.

Ramdle

-- Randle Gay (rangay@hotmail.com), July 06, 2001.