If so, why? What sorts of things do you eat or not eat? How long has it been since you had meat? Do you miss it?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Answers

I stopped eating meat (with the exception of seafood) twelve years ago, after reading Tony Robbins Diet for a New America, and learning that half of the antibiotics produced in the U.S. went towards the biological arms race caused by raising poultry in overcrowded cages. I was also realizing, slowly, that my body doesn't metabolize meat all that well. I don't miss meat, though the occasional whiff of barbeque sauce brings back memories...

I expected that the first few months without meat would be a problem, but I barely noticed the difference (except that my skin cleared up within after a week). I noticed a bigger difference recently when I stopped drinking caffiene for a year.

A couple of things to watch out for: take a good multivitamin, and figure out a way to get some protien for breakfast (like adding crushed almonds to your oatmeal).

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't eat a lot of meat. Barbequed cheeseburgers in the summer, of course. But I'm not a big fan of steak or pork. I quit eating meat for a few months a while ago, and ended up feeling really run-down---I'm just not good with the substitute protein thing. I think vegetarianism is a good thing, I just don't have the will power to do it.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I've been a vegetarian for oh, I don't know, fifteen or sixteen years now. I suppose I'd say I'm an ethical vegetarian, because the idea of killing something and eating it, well, it's just not very appetizing when I think about it. However, I don't tell other people what they should eat, and lo, I would love it if they would return the favor. This is unfortunately pretty rare.

I don't eat animals, at all: not cows, not pigs, not sheep, not goats, not horses or buffaloes or ostriches or kangaroos or frogs or snails (I live in France), not chickens, not turkeys, not fish, not shellfish. I do eat cheese and milk and eggs, though for about five years I was pretty much a complete vegan, except that I couldn't make myself care about honey. But I couldn't take it anymore; being a vegan made me feel awful, socially, and I was also having serious migraine trouble. When the neurologist told me I needed to start eating a protein food before bed that wasn't nuts or soy, I returned to eating dairy and eggs and have never looked back. While it is technically correct that eating eggs and milk is still involvement in the meat industry (where all the little boy cows and chickens are sent) I also believe that it's not a Manichean world, and we all make compromises.

I missed meat occasionally for the first couple of years, but the desire left and has never returned. However, living in France as a vegetarian can be hard, though the news about mad cow and what not has really increased my options. I've thought about eating fish again someday, because it would increase our eating out options, and it might someday happen. But since I don't really want to, it hardly seems worth it.

An advantage that I never imagined to being vegetarian for all of my adolescent and adult life, incidentally, is that I can keep my kitchen safe without pouring bleach over everything constantly, and I've never had to worry much about food poisoning. Even in the event that I completely changed my mind about eating meat (unlikely at this point) I can't imagine ever feeling safe cooking meat in my own kitchen. Plus, for bonus in-law points, it's easy to keep kosher. This is apparently invaluable ammunition for my mother-in-law when her friends ask her why her son married a shiksa. I have no trouble getting the minimum five servings of vegetables recommended by the Food Pyramid. And I love tofu (it took a while, but man, tofu rocks.) I could say more, but the general idea is that being vegetarian is great for me.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I used to be a vegetarian from the ages of 15-25 or so. When I started frequently cooking for myself I cooked beans and tofu and stuff (I always ate seafood and dairy and eggs) and it was easy to do once you learn. Now I live with a meat eater and I eat chicken quite frequently now. It was hard to get used to cooking where you have meat as the centerpiece. Stir fries aren't as important. One thing I hate about vegetarian cuisine is the reliance on eggs and cheese, so I figure eating chicken is better than that, at the moment.

I spent some time in Europe when I was vegetarian and it was difficult, but I was poor, so not that difficult. Recently I went to Spain and its totally different eating meat in Europe. Of course, I grew up kosher too, so its hard for me to eat pork, but I tried a little of everything and it was fine. In general, I'm a no-meat kind of girl. Give me a good vegetarian option any day.

Oddly, the only thing I really missed when I was a vegetarian was the most disgusting meat there is: a hebrew national hot dog. I still don't eat them, but I missed them. I don't miss steak, or anything. The worst day was Thanksgiving. Chili for thanksgiving is not the same.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Background for me: I've never liked poultry. The taste of chicken and turkey can be disguised pretty easily, but I don't really like either. I love beef and pork, though, although I haven't eaten much of either since leaving my parents' home. I love prime rib, and I love carnitas and chile verde. I really hate tofu except in hot and sour soup. I'm not much of a cheese fan, either, which makes things difficult.

Jeremy originally agreed to do this with me, but I've heard on the street that he's having pork tacos and turkey sandwiches for lunch, and last night he cooked meat for his dinner. One thing I'm finding is that I'm just not hungry at night anymore. I'm still eating dinner sometimes, but I don't really want it. I have my big meal at lunch because there are good vegetarian options nearby. (Ugh. Except the Mexican restaurant across the street from work just started putting giant mushy unpeeled CARROTS in their rice and beans burrito. Nasty. I always put veggies in burritos, but this was bad, bad, bad.) For breakfast I still have what I always had, my homemade fruit smoothies, and then around ten I have some carrots (raw, and not in a burrito, thank you) and usually a handful of nuts or something. A decent lunch and then some microwave popcorn when I get home, and I'm just not really hungry after that, except for maybe a salad or something.

So it's working out so far. Seafood was the hardest for me to give up the last time I did this, so I'm not trying this time. I've had fish twice in the last few weeks.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

It wasn't terribly hard for me (well, except for those couple of times where I thought I'd just sneak a Wendy's double with cheese in- I regreted it about three bites in, and for most of the following day . . .).

I'm not a big fan of seafood, and I hate eggs. But I still manage to find *lots* of things to eat on a daily basis (too many, some might say . . ). There's more to vegetables than 'maters, lettuce, and celery. And spices and mustards . . .wow- make more of a difference than I'd ever thought with meats. No dearth of cookbooks out there, you know.

And soy . . .last time most folks tried soy-anything, it was probably pretty narsty. I was pleasantly surprised at what they've been able to do with it. I avoid the ones that try too hard to taste like meat, though.

As to eating out- there's the everpresent portobello mushroom sandwich around here (good thing I like it). Indian restaraunts almost always offer a good array of veg. choices, too.

And when folks start in on the 'why don't you eat meat?' line, I can quickly start relaying the details of my time in Minnesota slaughterhouses if they don't give it a rest.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

How do you keep from losing muscle when you are vegetarian? I just lost about a hundred pounds in the last year, and rarely eat meat, but found out that I've lost about 25% of my muscle in the process. Not good. So that's why my arms hurt when I water my garden. I swear I try to eat a lot of protein, but evidently not enough.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

In college I gave up four-footed meat, never even considering giving up poultry and fish. When I moved in with Rich a few years later, my laziness overcame my discipline and I ate what he cooked, which was some, but not a lot, of meat and poultry. We've gone back and forth over the years, and now we're eating much less meat again.

The biggest obstacle for me is beans, which I can't stomach. I can't get them past my palate to my stomach, for that matter. So I will buy a turkey sandwich when Rich buys a rice-and-bean burrito. I have never liked eggs, either. We both eat fish, vacillating on the morality of fished-out oceans vs. antibiotics and other health concerns about fish-farms. The majority of my diet is vegetarian, which is where I feel healthiest if not morally certain. I do not foresee forswearing meat entirely, because I Love Lamb.

And I want to try rattlesnake, even though (farmed!) turtle didn't thrill me. And ostrich is amazing! (I'm sorry, Beth, that your first attempt tasted about like beef.)

Side question, which occured to me this weekend as we passed some horse ranches: when people eat horse, do they eat foals, the way you eat lamb in preference to mutton? or do they not eat foals, the way you don't eat veal?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

The Lisa Who Is Not Me:

Some people seem to be able to manage keeping muscle without animal proteins and others, more women according to my anecdotal knowledge, don't. I do think it's difficult, though possible, to get complete proteins as a vegan and a little easier as a vegetarian. Some bodies just don't seem to manage without actual animal tissue. At least two female vegetarians of my acquaintance have compromised on fish and diary on medical advice.

I *don't* understand how vegans reproduce and rear healthy children on a vegan diet. I admit near-total ignorance on this topic, but I don't Get how a body can thrive and grow from infancy without animal proteins. I'm sure parents research this and wouldn't compromise their children's health for their own aesthetic and I grant that it very well may be possible, but it's counter-intuitive to me.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Almost as far back as I can remember, I always thought about being vegetarian, I just didn't know how. Then, about a year ago, I spent a whole lot of time with a friend who was 1) a vegetarian and 2) professional athlete. (and he has *great* (ga-ga great at that) muscle tone, so I don't know what to tell you...) I learned enough from him to be able to make the transition and haven't looked back.

I can't imagine any other way, really. I never really cared for meat either, especially red meat or pork. Before I was veg, a couple of times a week I'd eat chicken or turkey, but otherwise, I was just an unhealthy omnivore.

I still haven't shaken my fear of tofu.

(Oh, but I will empathize with the Thanksgiving comment. Thanksgiving & Christmas were both a bitch last year. For Thanksgiving I had salad and rolls - all that was there I'd eat. For Christmas I ate something equally ridiculous in a test of wills between me and my family. You'd think that since I'm 27 they'd just let me be.)

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I've been a vegetarian since I was 12, and I'm now 29. When I started, it was because some of my friends were vegetarians and I thought it was cool. And then after I outgrew my obsession with coolness, there just didn't seem to be any good reason to start eating meal again.

And Lisa, in answer to your question about muscle, if you're losing it, it's probably from your weight loss rather than from being a vegetarian (when you eat fewer calories than you expend, your body will burn muscle for fuel, and also, as your body becomes smaller, you need less muscle). If you want to maintain your muscle mass, the best way is by lifting weights a few times a week. If you really think you're not getting enough protein, though, there are plenty of ways to get vegetarian protein: any soy product, rice and beans, nuts, dairy products, etc...

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

When my daughters decided to become vegetarians, oh, 15 years ago or so...I started buying vegetarian cookbooks and looking for good vegetarian entrees. It rekindled an interest in cooking, in good, natural foods, and in eating well for health reasons that is still with me. The daughters are grown up and both are eating some meat these days. I will also eat meat ...never at home, but sometimes when dining out. Well, I do eat chicken sometimes, but not much in the last year. I never use cheese for my protein (too fattening)...I eat beans (if I don't have plans for the evening), and I really like those veggie burgers. I saute onions and peppers in olive oil, then make a hole in the middle, plop in my burger, then add broccoli or cauliflower or whatever or top, put the lid on, let it steam. voila! a whole meal...only one dirty pan. I also like those small frozen broiled fish patties...low calorie and easy to bake. I aim for 8 veggies a day. I have some good recipies too for entrees that I don't make as often anymore as I live alone. Oh, and I like those veggie corndogs as I quit eating weiners a long time ago. And I buy those veggie crumbles (fake hamburger meat) to make quesadillas with....I do it like the skillet bit above...except some veggies I don't like in a quesadilla...then I sprinkle on some low fat cheese, lay my tortilla over the top....the cheese melts and I flip the whole skillet over onto my plate! Some salsa and plain yogurt and it's quite a meal!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I was a relatively strict ecological (for lack of a better term) vegetarian for 8 years, until about 2 years ago. I would eat fish and seafood, although I steered away from over-fished species, and I drank milk and ate cheese, but didn't eat any land animal or things with animal fat or rennet in them (on a side note, it is so much easier to find rennet-free cheese now than it was a decade ago). I don't have a moral problem with eating animals, but I'm uncomfortable about the way animals are treated by the industry, I'm worried about antibiotics, and I also like the idea of getting protein and calories in a way that taxes our environmental resources less.

It's not that hard, if you know the general combinations of things that create complete proteins (rice and beans, whole wheat bread and almond or peanut butter, etc.) to make sure you have some of each every day. My favorite staples were onions/peppers/black beans/tomatos/chilis in whole wheat tortillas, and a Morroccan stew with chickpeas/tomatos/ peppers/onions/sweet potatos over couscous with a hot sauce.

But, I never disliked the taste of meat, and sometimes I actively missed turkey, and my great weakness is a craving for BLT's in the summer (yeah, here I am so worried about being healthy and I have a humongous bacon craving). About 4 years ago I started swimming intensively again on a team, doing 3 2-hour workouts a week. And one day I had a turkey sandwich for lunch, out of the blue, and felt fantastic. So I decided to add back some lean animal protein and see if I felt better, which I did. Now, I don't think I was particularly low on protein before, and I think there was an interaction between the increase in exercising and the healthiness of my diet in general, so I don't think that eating meat again was magical. But it felt okay, and now I can afford to buy free-range and antibiotic-free/organic animal products, so that is what I do occasionally, about once a week or less. I rarely cook meat myself, because I just never did it when I was learning how to cook and I find it kind of gross.

I do have to admit that some of this is laziness on my part too - I got tired of having to be a constraint on the restaurant that got picked, and of having to tell any dinner hosts that I couldn't eat what they wanted to cook.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I am weak, I suppose, or selfish - I need a cheeseburger once a week, and the odd steak. I flirt with vegetarianism, though - I just ordered the books "Diet For a Small Planet" and "Recipes For a Small Planet", and would love a vegetarian's insight on whether or not these are good guides, and if they aren't, any suggested reading is welcome. Convert me!

I cook for two of us, and those meals are generally meatless, or use meat substitute, but I don't know how to make the jump to no-meat-at- all. I took some printouts from vegetarian sites to a nutritionist, and she didn't think they had nearly enough protein in their diet guides.

2 ladies from my gym are vegans, and I have to wonder, how can there be grossly overweight vegetarians? I always think of the whole vegetarian/vegan thing as very healthful, but these women are about 400 lbs apiece.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I've known vegetarians who had horrible diets. Some people basically take out meat and add cheese just about everywhere (I had one friend in grad school who ate potatos and cheese in some combination every single day), or other high-fat diary products, and don't add in a variety of grains, legumes, or vegetables.

One of my staples is Laurel's Kitchen. Even though they present a whole lifestyle thing that is a little crunchy granola for me in places, they have a wide variety of recipes, including just simple ways to combine vegetables, and have a great calorie/nutritional content guide for their recipes and foods in general in the back. Moosewood cookbooks are good too, although tend to be a little less conscious of how much fat their recipes contain. I have a subscription to Cooking Light, which is not vegetarian, and they have a good vegetarian column and many of their recipes can be adapted.

With the recent high protein/low carb craze, even more people comment on the worry about vegetarians getting enough protein. Americans eat much more protein, especially animal-based protein, than much of the world, and while protein is necessary we don't actually need nearly as much as we get. And it really isn't at all hard, with a decent variety of foods in your diet, to get complete proteins. Also, most vegetarians consume protein through dairy and eggs as well.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I heartily second Joy's recommendation about the Moosewood cookbooks. The more recent ones are a lot more fat-conscious than the early ones, and they also have very detailed nutrition information about each of the recipes.

I like these books because everything in them is easy to cook, and there's a broad range of cooking styles, so there's something for everyone.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I did the vegetarian thing for about two years (before I had babies) but lving with a dyed-in-the-wool meat eater who had no interest giving up his meat and potatoes diet - well, it got to be such a hassle cooking for two different lifestyles that I gave it up. I still eat a lot more veggies and meatless meals not really for any other reason expcet that is what I like. A big, fresh salad is much more appealing to me than a cheesburger any day. On the rare occassion I do have a craving for a big hunk of steak but its usually in the summer when I'm grilling out.

I have friends who are vegetarian - and some that are vegan - and the way they handle it all is very different. Some friends you wouldn't even know because they keep such a low profile about it - and then I have some who are militant about the whole thing and take every opportunity to explain to the rest of us how our eating habits are horrible, etc. etc. They make it very difficult to plan a dinner party for sure.

One set of vegan friends is super healthy as they stick to the veggies only - they are lean and tough, in very good shape. The other set of vegans could lose about 75 pounds each at LEAST - all they eat are starches: pasta, pasta, pasta - and tons of desserts. I don't think a vegan diet is a very healthy one in general - I have seen the rare person be healthy on it but the majority of people I know who are vegan have not changed their eating habits for the better, IMO. What's the point of going vegan if you're going to be all fat and pasty? That isn't healthy to your body for sure.

- t

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I've never been a vegetarian, even when I was an impressionable teen. I just like meat too much. And I feel like it makes more sense because we're omnivores.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

In the news today: yet more reason to go vegetarian--or at least to cut way down on meat. Only animal-derived foods contain cholesterol.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Laurel's Kitchen is an essential reference. My only complaint is that their muffin recipes are on the dry side. "Healthy muffins" are two words that induce fear in our kitchen.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Oh man - I was doing so well, too. About two years as a vegetarian, until last fall when work became stressville USA and I ended up down at the Zephyr gobbling down a big cheeseburger. After about six months going full tilt back into red meat eating territory, I'm back to fish, chicken and turkey - with the odd urge (like, right now) for hamburger.

I felt better when I was a vegetarian, I know that much. I'm trying to be a bit more gradual about things this time, so that I'm not easily pushed into the arms of a buger when I'm stressing.

As for cookbooks, if you can find Madhur Jaffrey's World of the East Vegetarian Cooking - buy it. The only way I even learned to like vegetables was via Indian/Eastern cooking because it smothers vegetables in spices. I've got Sundays at Moosewood Restaurant which I like best of all the series, Vegetarian Planet and Essential Vegetarian Cooking. I also have some traditional cookbooks (one by Emeril, and the New Basics) which have provided me with great veggie only recipes, or recipes that can easily be adapted to meat-free.

I have decided that I will not give up dairy - I don't eat that much of it, but it comes down to my love for milk chocolate. Also, a good cheese is a thing of sublime beauty.

Tofu, well - tofu pretty much sucks. There's a Thai restaurant down the street that works minor miracles with it, but it's still not something I can imagine incoroporating into my diet regularly. For me, the key to veggie happiness revolves largely around black beans and cilantro.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

"Healthy muffins" are two words that induce fear in our kitchen.

Not ours. I'm not a big muffin fan, but Jeremy regularly requests my apple raisin bran muffins. They're pretty high in sugar, though:

3/4 cup whole wheat flour
1/2 cup white flour
1 cup unprocessed bran (Quaker is the best if you can find it)
1 cup packed brown sugar
1 tbsp baking powder
1 tsp cinnamon
1/2 tsp salt
1 1/2 cups unsweetened applesauce
1/4 cup skim milk
1/8 cup vegetable oil
1 egg, beaten, or 1 cup egg substitute
1 cup raisins or dried cranberries

Heat oven to 400 degrees. Combine flour, bran, baking powder, cinnamon, and salt in large bowl; mix well. In separate bowl, combine applesauce, brown sugar, milk, oil, and egg; blend well. Add all at once to dry ingredients, and mix just until flour mixture is moistened. Don't overmix. Spray 12 muffin cups with nonstick cooking spray, or line with baking cups. Fill each about 2/3 full. Bake 18-20 minutes or until toothpick inserted in center comes out clean.

As I said, I'm not a big muffin fan, but these go pretty quickly.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Twice I've attempted to go Veggie. Both times for eco reasons. After about 5 months I found myself always thinking about how much I'd like some chicken. After the first slide I only ate poutry (I can't stand fish) for about 2 years.

After the more recent slide, about a year and a half ago, I started eating everything under the sun again.

I'm amazed, more than anything else, by the people who can remain vegitarian. It's like watching someone on a tightrope for me, though I doubt it feels that way to them.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I don't miss meat right now. I definitely don't miss chicken or turkey. I'll miss chile verde and carnitas sooner or later, but right now I'm kind of grossed out by pork.

My neighbors barbecued steaks the other day and they smelled really good, but I often have something else (portabello mushrooms, or a garden burger) when other people are eating beef, anyway, so that's not a big deal.

As of last week I was really craving fish, so I've had fish twice recently -- salmon on Friday night, and orange roughy two days ago. No meat cravings since then.

As I said, though, I'm not being super strict. We went out for dim sum for Mother's Day, and I just ate what everyone else had, which included pork and shrimp in small amounts. I may become more strict later on, but right now I'm not ready to impose my eating habits on everyone else.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Meant to add: Garden Burgers are the greatest thing ever. Either they didn't have them when I was a vegetarian before, or I didn't know about them. Jeremy likes them, too, especially the mushroom ones. I keep a mix of the original kind (grains, veggies, cheese) and the soy protein kind around, and we have them for lunches or for days when we're eating dinner separately. A Garden Burger on a cracked wheat bun, along with roasted asparagus (thank you, Trouble) and a mixed green salad, is our new standard summer meal, replacing barbecued chicken and caesar salad.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I can't speak to the question of whether people eat foals or full- grown horses from personal experience or anything, but judging by the size of the carcasses I see people lugging out of the trucks and into the horse meat store in the mornings, I'd say that at least some of the meat comes from full-grown horses.

Aside: in the US, I was told that all sheep meat is called lamb, but much of it is really adult sheep. Only something called "spring lamb" is really made of lambs. This was apparently the result of a lobbying effort by the sheep industry, which wished to fool people and charge higher prices.

If you're really curious to know the provenance of your meat in France, you can, at most restaurants, ask to see the biography of the animal you're planning to eat, which contains information about bloodlines, the farm where the animal was raised, what the animal was fed, and to answer the question that was asked, how old it was when it was slaughtered. We went out with a friend who eats meat and he was offered one of these little fact sheets. That would be the direct way to answer the question, if you are interested enough.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I love Garden Burgers too - especially the black bean/spicy ones. I like crumbling them up in a wrap, usually with steamed asparagus or some leftover salad (spinach with a bit of feta). Yes, I'm queen of weird combinations of leftover foods. I don't like any of the meat- flavored veggie burgers. I guess maybe some people are trying to cut back on meat, or can't eat it anymore for health reasons, and therefore like the fake meat flavored foods, but I can't stand them.

I was once at a conference in Manhattan, and a Chinese restaurant was recommended to us as having good vegetarian food. It turns out that while some of the food was indeed what you would expect non-meat Chinese food to be, most of it was tofu made to taste and *look* exactly like all the different meat and seafood Chinese dishes. The waiters kept taking orders saying "it tastes just like beef", "it tastes just like chicken", "it tastes just like pork". Gross.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

A serious second endorsement for "Madhur Jaffrey's World of the East Vegetarian Cooking." I actually thought of that when I first saw this thread, but couldn't remember how to spell the name . . .

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

POST-A-RAMA!

I was a vegetarian for about three years, eventually falling off the wagon for (surprise, surprise) bacon (mmm, bacon).

I don't remember the name of the cookbook, but the Deborah Madison tome (she once was a chef at Greens, the oh-so-chic vegetarian place at Fort Mason where dinners cost as much as Puck's Postrio on Post) has been invaluable. I still use it, and I'm eating lots of meat these days.

Sei

P.S. Bacon saves the world -- or, at least I think it's going to -- in King's latest, you know. "'Oh,' he thought. 'It's even BETTER this way...cold, and slimy, and almost ALIVE.'" I like it extra-crispy, but then that's just me.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

"Garden Burgers are great; Garden Burgers are good. Garden Burgers taste only a LITTLE like wood."

Actually, Beth, you're the first person I've ever heard say that she likes the more "meat-like" ones. Frankly, they're at least as meat- like as the "two-fer-a-buck" little grossouts I used to buy at AM/PM during especially tough commutes. Which do you think are better, the "traditional" Garden Burgers, or the more progressive ones? ("BBQ," "Spicy," etc.)

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I cut out everything but fish, because man, if I can't eat my sushi, I am one bitter little woman.

One of my good friends was a vegetarian, solid, for like five or six years, until all of a sudden, she craved a pork chop. So she had one. And now, everyone always razzes her for loving pork so much. "Marcy eats pork," "Marcy loves pork," "Marcy eats tons of pork." She's had only a handful of pork chops, ever. Hee!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Oh, I didn't mean I *liked* the more meat-like ones. They just have more protein, so I try to alternate. For those ones, I have three words for you: LOTS. OF. MUSTARD.

I really like the original Garden Burgers, but the mushroom ones are probably my favorite.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Tome Greene, overhead at a posh Hollywood party, "I'll give up beef when they pry my sick twisted unfunny stupid lips from its huge salty cow penis."

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Many years back, some friends held regular "tasting" parties. A week before the party, the hosts would call around (this was the days before everyone had email) and assign people a particular brand of something to bring. Once we did canned Chile, and tasted 9 brands.

I'm tempted to hold another tasting party. First up: vegiburgers.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

No, I'm not a vegetarian although I eat beef and chicken sparingly. Not because I don't like them but because I love fruits and vegetables and base most of meals around them. I prefer fish/seafood to beef or chicken and I rarely eat pork or veal.

I have two cousins that have been vegetarians since they were 14. You would never know because they never talk about it. I probably wouldn't even know if my aunt hadn't mentioned it to me in passing once. I've never had a debate or discussion about this with anyone so this thread is interesting reading for me.

It seems that if you live in a big city/town there are many restaurant options open to you. Since the majority of people enjoy dining out I think it must be difficult for anyone not living in a big city to find a good selection of restaurants that offer meals that fit a vegetarian diet. Do many of you, not living in NYC/LA sized city, find this to be true ? If you don't eat in a Vegetarian Restaurant how hard is it to find something on a menu (besides salad) to eat ?

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

I think California in general is pretty good for vegetarian fare in restaurants. Sacramento is a pretty small city, and there are only a few restaurants that specifically cater to vegetarians, but most places have some vegetarian options, and the waiters are often very helpful -- like if you order something without meat, they'll point out if a side dish is made with meat stock, for instance.

I'm pretty lucky because I work down the street from a deli that really caters to vegetarians, even though they also sell meat. There are at least seven different lunch options for me that don't involve meat, and two or three of those are vegan.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

I like Sundays at Moosewood best of the Moosewood series.

This whole thread is making me crave a cheeseburger.

I like veggie burgers, but I can never get the texture right at home.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Is it possible to be a vegetarian, if you really hate beans? Everything I am reading now points to Beans as the Magical Fruit For Protein, but I hate all beans, all the time. What else do Vegetarians do for their protein consumption?

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

seitan--it's essentially wheat gluten. High in protein and has a chewy texture that people find less disturbing than tofu.

It also works better with flavorings that aren't heavily based in asian cooking.

Oh, and tempeh.

Also, do you like less beany-beans? Like soybeans, butter beans, or lima beans?

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Kristen - I don't actually go heavy on the beans, or tofu either which is a big way to add protein. I consume dairy almost every day (usually skim milk at breakfast, yogurt, or some cheese with lunch or dinner), and make sure that I have a variety of grains and vegetables every week. Long ago I looked up all the combinations of foods that make whole proteins (whole wheat bread + peanut butter; certain vegetables + potato, legumes like peas + I can't remember) and I've been cooking that way for so long that I don't even think about it anymore. I might have something with beans in it once or twice a week. I did always eat fish when I wasn't eating any meat, so that was an option once a week or so. I do eat chickpeas (in mediterranean stews and hummous) a lot; I don't know if you don't like these either.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Oh, just wanted to say sorry about the Kristin misspelling.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Everybody spells it wrong, but almost nobody ever realizes they do and then corrects it -you totally rock!

Ok, now - I was raised on Protestant Eating - everything is beige, somewhat flavourless, and comes with a side of potato. So, start with the basics, and use itty bitty words - what is a 'whole protein'?

Reading this thread I am finding it is a wonder I am still alive - I have no clue what i should eat, or why I should eat it, or when, or in what quantity.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Oh, okay, proteins are composed of amino acids, and to make use of protein our bodies need to either receive whole proteins or the component amino acids so that a whole protein can be synthesized. Whole proteins are present in animal products, and different foods (rice/whole grains/legumes/vegetables) have different component amino acids in them (I think soy might have whole protein?). So as long as you eat the right combinations of foods, you can even be vegan and still get protein.

One of my cookbooks has a simple guide to which kinds of foods have which partial proteins in them, and which foods to combine. I'll look at it tonight and post tomorrow. You don't have to combine them in a single meal by the way, only in the course of a day or so.

I hope that helps.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Tempeh is the answer to right-thinking bean- and tofu-haters like me. I was raised on your diet, Kristin--grey meat and beige potatoes and sad little wilted canned green thing on the side. I can't take spicy- hot foot, like Indian, Mexian, or Thai. I'm applied for disabled parking. Refried beans are the worst, and even the veggie, non-lard sort are still full of some sort of fat; but I struggle with all beans' taste and texture and cannot digest them. I don't even know if tempeh is soy- or grain-based, but it can easily (ie, by a noncooker like me) into a veggie stir-fry and eaten with rice, or put into a nonthreatening chile. Unlike tofu, it has a palatable texture, rather like sticky rice, and a good flavor, kind of nutty.

I'm not eating lamb when I think I'm eating lamb? Damn.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

I read the nutrition segments of a couple of vegetarian recipe cookbooks last night. *The New Laurel's Kitchen* (from late 80's) points out that most Americans get about 100 grams or more of protein a day from animal products, that the recommended daily allowance is about half that (44 grams for women), and that getting a specific and high amount of protein is only a concern if you are a child, pregnant, or building a lot of muscle. They say that protein is much more important if you aren't taking in enough calories, but that most vegetarians don't even need to think about combining foods with different amino acids because a whole foods, healthy, varied diet will definitely supply you with the minimum necessary (they say about 10 grams a day) and most likely much more. Just as a rough benchmark, one 8 oz glass of milk has 8 grams of protein, a potato about 5 grams, and a cup of broccoli 3 grams. I think maybe it was reading the above that made me stop worrying too much about exactly what foods I was eating as long as I was including some dairy and getting a varied diet.

In *Vegetarian Favorites: Delicious Recipes from Around the World* (1983), they have a chart of different foods that are short in critical amino acids. Dairy products, eggs, and soy products all have whole proteins (they aren't low in any of the component amino acids). In the following three groups of foods, you should combine one food from one group with a different food from another group to avoid missing a critical amino acid. The list is:

Group 1 (low in lysine): Legumes - peanuts Grains - barley, buckwheat, bulger, cornmeal, millet, oats, rice, rye, wheat Nuts & Seeds - almonds, brazil nuts, cashews, coconut, pecans, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, walnuts Vegetables - asparagus, beet greens, corn, kale, mushrooms, potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams

Group 2 (low in sulfur-carrying amino acids): Legumes - beans, black eyed peas, garbanzos, lentils, limas, peanuts Nuts - filberts Vegetables - asparagus, green beans, beet greens, broccoli, brussels sprouts, mushrooms, parsley, green peas, potatoes, swiss chard

Group 3 (low in tryptophan): Legumes - beans, garbanzos, limas, mung beans, peanuts Grains - cornmeal Nuts - almonds, brazil nuts, walnuts Vegetables - corn, beet greens, mushrooms, green peas, swiss chard

Obviously this list is not comprehensive. I tend to eat relatively simple meals - cereal with fruit and skim milk for breakfast, usually with a piece of whole grain toast with a bit of almond butter on it; for dinner either a vegetable stew over couscous with a hot sauce, or a onion/bean/pepper/tomato/chiles mix in a whole wheat tortilla and some sour cream, or pasta with lightly sauteed tomatoes/artichoke hearts/ fresh basil and some steamed broccoli rabe on the side. Sometimes I have whole dinners of broccoli rabe because I'm addicted to it right now - steam it, then sautee very very briefly in a little olive oil with lots of sliced garlic, yum. Broiled or grilled salmon and chard is a favorite too.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

I stopped eating beef a couple of months ago after an article in the Washington Post. (I can't link to it because they charge for articles older than 2 weeks.) It was so disturbing, I could only read the first part, but I knew I could never eat beef again after that. The gist of it was that slaughterhouses are self regulated, and apparently they're not doing such a good job. Cows are supposed to be stunned (brain dead) when slaughtered, but according to workers, many times they're still alive while they're getting cut apart. It was the most appalling article I'd read in a long time, and I can honestly say it changed my life. I decided I was not going to support in any way an industry that is so inhumane.

I feel guilty because I still eat chicken and turkey - I'm sure the conditions in which they are raised and slaughtered are bad, too. I don't eat that much of it (I hate those icky rubbery parts you sometimes get in chicken) but I do eat it occasionally.

I like tofu, especially the baked kind you can get at Whole Foods - it comes in a little plastic pack and there are different flavors (Thai, Mexican...). It's in the refrigerated section. I also like cottage cheese, light (not fat free) cheese, egg whites, and yogurt as other sources of protein.

Sorry if this was TMI....

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

If God didn't want man to eat meat, he would have made animals out of vegetables.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001

I'm not a vegetarian, though I eat red meat only when I'm at a restaurant renowned for their prime rib, whathaveyou. When I lived in Sydney, I had emu, crocodile, camel, kangaroo, etc, and in Kenya, I had zebra, giraffe, ostrich, crocodile, etc, at The Carnivore restaurant. This tends to horrify the more staunch vegetarians.

For the most part, I eat organic, and a lot of soy, because soy makes you strong and crushes your enemies! Edamame, soy milk, soy coffee creamer, soy margarine, soy and flax waffles, soy ice cream. I draw the line at soy cheese, which is too...sticky, like you'll never get it off your teeth. I also like Van's waffles, esp. the soy and flax kind.

As for eating out in the pig-pullin' state of North Carolina, I go for Japanese, or Mexican, for fajitas. North Carolinians love buffets, especially a place called The Golden Corral, where they pile their plates with the starchiest, fattest, most arteriosclerosis- inducing food available, in horrifying quantity. In the morning, they eat chicken or ham biscuits from Hardee's. One breakfast place has a pepperoni omelette special.

In general, people here tend to be large and have no regard for nutritional health. Though I don't comment on how someone's diet is drastically unhealthy, they have no compunction about making me the center of attention because of what I eat, or politely refuse to eat. They usually treat me like a refugee they found munching on a flower, in critical need of sustenance, and flesh.

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2001

i'm just a baby vegetarian: i'm 24 and i haven't had meat for about two years now. i went veggie for a combination of ecological and ethical reasons, although these days i shy away from talking about it with people, thanks to a few non-vegetarians who took great joy in antagonizing me with mean-spirited (and totally unprovoked) questions about my diet.

i don't eat any kind of animal, including seafood, but i do eat dairy and occasionally eggs. i feel a bit guilty about it, but like dorie said, i figure it's not a perfect world and we do what we can. i drink soy milk instead of real milk, but i don't think i'll ever be able to give up real cheese.

i don't miss meat very often. the few things i do miss are, of course, the most disgusting and unhealthy: salami, pepperoni pizza, german sausage. and i miss a few things from my childhood: smoked salmon, my mom's chicken adobo. but overall, the longer i don't eat meat, the more...icky it seems to me. i was always a squeamish eater and i never much liked big morsels of fat or bones or veiny bits.

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2001

I gave up beef and pork over fifteen years ago and haven't looked back. After reading up on the details of the poultry and dairy industries, became a strict vegan two months ago and have been struck by how easy it is.

I eat extremely well finding that Indian, Thai, Chinese, and Italian cuisines are most adapted/adaptive to an all-veg diet. Don't feel much need for substitute-type eating except in the way of milk products. Whole Foods own brand of soy milk (365 Days) is among the best and half the price of the name brands. Silk is the best of the expensive ones. Soy Delicious is an excellent ice cream substitute and it's cheaper too. Silk makes a great cultured soy product that I find better than yogurt. Diet becomes a matter of habit and familiarity. After only two months, soy has a familiar taste; milk tastes, strong, sour and unhealthy.

Have no patience with claims that veganism is anti-social or unhealthy. If your idea of "society" includes hungry people who need grain, sentient creatures who need freedom from pain, and a society in need of clean air and water, the disapproval/inconvenience of a few intolerant carnivores is rather a small thing indeed. It is far more anti-social to give in to it. I was raised in a racist town. Doesn't mean I acted racist so they'd like me better. Certain things aren't negotiable.

As to health, the rare unhealthy vegetarians you see, the ones whose doctors put them back on the old-nutrition straight and narrow (as decreed by the meat and dairy industries), are usually starchetarians. They stop eating meat and start eating spaghetti every night and wonder why they feel bad. Vegetables actually have quite a lot of protein especially when you learn how deliberately deluded Americans have been about how much protein they need. A vegetarian diet is also rich in fiber and other goodies like isoflavones. For males, becoming vegan practically eliminates your likelihood of heart disease, and if you're heart is sick already, you may actually bring it back to health.

As to the impact on muscles and athletes, best to ask Martina Navritilova and Carl Lewis and any of the several vegan body-builders and triathletes.

Meat eaters need to get a heart and a clue.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2001

You seem very social. Point taken. Vegans=tolerant and social. You also get two points.

Oh, and a question: can veganism cure circumcision?

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2001

I became a vegetarian in 1988, just prior to entering graduate school, and a vegan in 1992, after becoming familiar with the work of John McDougall. My diet is starch-centered and low/very low in fat (~ 10% to 15% of calories from fat). Breakfast usually involves hot cereal (oat bran or "Bear Mush", a Cream of Wheat alternative from Arrowhead Mills). My evening meal (I ususually skip lunch) is focused on grains as well, such as rice and beans, couscous, potatoes, etc. I am a big fan of packaged foods, provided that they are vegan and without added oils or preservatives. After an initial learning curve, shopping really becomes quite easy (and far more interesting, actually, as you investigate the ingredients of various products).

My initial basis for avoiding animal products was a "philosophical" one, and I remain firmly committed to my decision (I use vegan soaps/shampoos as well). The health benefits are significant, however, and not to be overlooked by someone who is exploring veganism solely for that reason. I never (literally) have headaches, no matter how stressful my work environment, and have a cold perhaps once per year, from which I recover quickly. As was pointed out, the risk of heart disease (and, if we agree with McDougall, many forms of cancer) are virtually nil. All in all, it is one of the best decisions I ever made.

Fear not the starch!

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

Hey chinchona19, thanks for the lecture on being nice. You seem real sweet yourself -- sort of a smug, sarcastic Dale Carnegie. How I wish I had your people skills.

Some clarification. I don't generally attempt to pick fights with carnivores (they invariably get ridiculous) but I also never said I was tolerant about things I find entirely wrong. This is true of most people. You don't hear people say, for instance "murdering someone isn't something I'd choose to do, but who am I to say no one else should?"

And as for being sociable, there are those who think being kind is about not ruffling feathers even if it means doing and saying things in which you do not believe, and maybe it is more sociable. I weigh the great suffering my irritating unwillingness to eat meat must surely cause carnivorous hypocrites against that of an anemic veal calf standing in the dark in its own shit because its pen isn't clean and there's not enough room to lay down -- and gosh -- it's a tough one -- but then when I consider the toll meat-eating takes on the environment and on the world's protein supply, it sort of becomes a no-brainer. Don't really want to be that kind of nice.

Now run along and give smart-ass lectures to someone who might actually think you're cogent.

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

Actually, *two* people have told me that I'm very clever indeed. You're outnumbered. And totally blowing my preconceptions about asshole vegans. I like the other type quite a bit already.

Shout out to my soy friends!

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

Michael McFadden, while I'm reserving judgment on whether you're a troll, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the moment and assume you just have no sense of tact. Just a word of advice: Wading into a forum and finding several ways to insult people with whom you disagree (calling us "carnivores" when we're actually omnivores, and equating a non-vegan diet with racism) in your first post out of the gate is not a really effective way of getting yourself taken seriously. That's especially true when you're taking a minority view and opposing something most people consider normal.

And it takes some nerve to do it when by your own admission you've only been strict vegan for two months. That doesn't exactly give you a long and steady track record from which you can issue your proclamations.

Case in point: I'm not a vegetarian, but I know a number of people who are, and I like them and understand their reasons for adopting a non-meat diet (some are lacto-ovo vegetarians and one or two are vegans), even though I don't share it. We get along well and we respect each other's opinons. You, on the other hand, came out swinging and on the defensive when no one had attacked you, and so I'm about 2/3 of the way to thinking you're just a jerk.



-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

McFadden: ... I also never said I was tolerant about things I find entirely wrong. This is true of most people. You don't hear people say, for instance "murdering someone isn't something I'd choose to do, but who am I to say no one else should?"

You don't have much grasp of the principle of analogy, do you? The idea is that the two ideas be equivalent, so the person can glean an understanding of one of them based on a pre-existing understanding of the other.

So a fair analogy would be for you to say "You don't hear people saying 'I don't practice acupuncture, but who am I to say no one else should?'" There you have a minority view (acupuncture) that, while not mainstream, is also not so exotic as to be unfamiliar, and that allows people who understand this to understand your point about your opinion. The only problem is, people actually do say that about acupuncture, which has the unfortunate side effect of undermining your argument's weak foundation.

Which is probably why you knew better than to look for an analogy that was actually appropriate.



-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

"You don't hear people say, for instance 'murdering someone isn't something I'd choose to do, but who am I to say no one else should?'"

(Boy, if I wanted to get really controversial, I could point out that some pro-lifers on the abortion question think they hear that argument all the time from the pro-choicers...I stress the "think". In that case it's a matter of definition on what a fetus is...whether it's a "someone" or not.)

But as long as we're on the matter of definition....

Um.

Question.

Why is it better to eat plants than animals? They're both living things, right?

If you were just eating fruits and other seed-bearing appendages that are meant to fall off---nuts, oranges, apples, etc....you'd have a point.

(And oddly enough, in the Bible, the only thing Adam and Eve were given permission to eat---and even there they had an exception---were fruit....)

But most people make no such distinction. They will heartlessly eat an entire head of lettuce, stalks of brocolli, even spinach, without a twinge of guilt.

Is it the nervous system? Is it the fact that animals can feel pain that makes the difference?

Honestly curious.

Where do you draw the line? Is it the degree their nervous system is developed? Can one eat chocolate covered ants without a twinge of guilt?

Whatabout microscopic animals your white corpuscles might do away with? Are they, the protozoa, more precious than bacteria? (Animals vs. plants, again.)

I'm always impressed by highly principled people. I just always wonder where they draw the line for that principle...

Al of NOVA NOTES.

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

So, Al, do your kids want to keep a dog or a head of lettuce for a pet? Don't be a moron. You're not "honestly curious", you're trolling a troll (not that I would *ever* do such a thing myself . . ).

~

I started vegetarianism, very slowly, for health reasons, years ago. Never gave a thought to the ethical aspect of it. But recently, more and more, I'm rather repulsed by the sight of dead, formerly living running twitching feeling, flesh sitting on the counter at my local deli.

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

Curtis: well,yeah, maybe I was trolling a troll a little, but the question is still fair; there are certainly people who breed rare orchids and tend rosebushes that give the plants every bit as much love, or more, as some kids give their pets.

Why is the killing of a plant more "acceptable" than the killing of an animal?

If you want to say because the animal can feel pain and agony, that's fine. It's a reasonable benchmark, something we have in common with the animal.

Yet any of those, vegetarian or non, involves taking a life....unless you subsist solely on fruits and nuts or other seed-bearing appendages of a plant that are meant to fall off.

I am curious where people draw the line....and why.

Al of NOVA NOTES.

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

Because spelling "sentient" is beyond me, how 'bout a "it screams when you stab it" litmus test? Of course, fish are at a disadvantage here, but hey, there are compromises everywhere, right?

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

To answer the original questions: I'm a vegetarian and have been so for almost three years. I eat a variety of foods; I'm not a picky eater. I chose to do so for moral and ethical reasons after realizing the atrocites of the meat industry. I don't miss it, and really can't imagine eating it again.

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2001

McFadden, step off. This forum wasn't a bunch of meat-eaters defending their choices; it was mostly a discussion of choices by people experimenting with vegetarianism, veganism, and just eating less meat. You came in and turned it into a war zone when it wasn't one before you got here. Did you even read the other posts? Go away.

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2001

Interestingly, #3 definition for "carnivore" in my dictionary is "An insectivorous plant"

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2001

I will step off -- but a few points.

I can't see that my first post turned this "into a war zone", as I never directed a single comment at any single poster in particular. That was achichona who broke that ice. And I responded in kind.

And you must have noticed that your halcyon little bulletin board had no posts between May 14 and mine and is now full of activity, mostly consisting of giving an "asshole vegan", that's me, lessons in grammar and laughingly, good manners and ethics, simply for calling a smartass a smartass.

So post away folks, I stopped reading about three down and won't be coming back. I'm just overwhelmed by all that wit, ethical reasoning and good grammar.

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2001

Sure. Everyone who says they won't be coming back is telling the absolute truth.

But thanks for confirming my suspicions, that you came in from Google or some place and didn't actually read the rest of the board. This is one thread, genius. Plenty of posts since May 14; we've just moved on from this one. And now, from you. Adieu!

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2001

Ahhh, now I understand why you want to make sure the new forum can't be read by Google.

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2001