building suggestions for a new home on our farm!

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

IF things go as planned, we will start building our new home on the 80 acres that we own, before year end.

It was so easy when it was a dream but now that it is reality--it's scary. We are both in our mid-forties and will never have a chance to do this again. I need help with keeping it in prepective--don't want to over or under do. MY questions are how do you know what is important and what is just a 'passing fancy'?

I have always wanted a very large kitchen--one for gathering, cooking and entertaining a very large extented family, a fireplace that will be built from the rocks on our property, a footed tub in my bathroom, and a pantry to hold all my canned goods---everything else is optional!

What should I remember to include? Any thing you have done or would do different if you could? Thank you for any help.

-- Debbie T in N.C. (rdtyner@mindspring.com), May 07, 2001

Answers

Debbie,

Put in the things that you feel you want in your home. But, remember energy efficiency and utilize passive solar features too. A big kitchen is terrific...I'm happy for you and a bit jealous...still looking for land I can afford to get onto. And I'm doing this solo. Plenty of storage space, your pantry and you might consider a root cellar too. Or instead of the typical pantry. I have an antique pedestal tub to put in my bathroom(someday). Carefully consider what your main heat source will be and build accordingly. You also might incorporate solar hot water heating which would need to be included in your plans. All things to save money in the long run. Congratulations and good luck with your home!

-- Deborah (bearwaoman@Yahoo.com), May 07, 2001.


On the practical side, you must have a back door mud room, call it a summer porch or whatever, but someplace for the dripping raincoats, newborn kids/chicks or whatever, muddy rubber boots, pails full of milk, basket of eggs that need cleaning, and all the produce BEFORE it comes into the spotless kitchen! Situating the rooms in your house that you will frequent most, to have windows facing the animal pastures. Nothing like having to hang out the back bedroom window to see the kids frolicing in the infant pen, to bad my house couldn't be turned so it is out the very much used living room window seat! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 07, 2001.

I will tell you my fathers idea. Draw out your kitchen as you want it and maybe the bathroom. Add the others to fit the important ones.

-- Jay Blair in N. Al (jayblair678@yahoo.com), May 07, 2001.

Wow... what a question. Never really gave it all that much thought, but I guess I should.

Hubby and I plan to build a timber frame/straw bale house. I wanted only four rooms... two bedrooms, a bath and a huge room to serve as kitchen/dining/family room etc. (We actually have scale drawings, but no prints, as we haven't the land yet, lol!) Anyway, there is a basement under the huge room, that will serve as a root cellar and storage area. Other than cabinets, it will also be our pantry. It also has a large wrap-around porch.

My idea was to build so that rooms could be added on as money and energy permitted, and, if needed, the main room could be divided instead of adding on. Don't know how that would work with conventional building, but I know its been done.

One thing we did was to make a list of everything we would include if money was no object. Then, it got widdled down piece by piece. (Being that I don't work, so far the four room idea is winning, lol.)

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), May 07, 2001.


Consider an on-demand hot water heater. Look for fuel efficiency. Locate your woodstove where the heat will circulate and rise passively. If you plan a greenhouse, figure where that will go sunwise and make it part of the house design. Unattached greenhouses soon become unused. Don't use river rocks for the chimney- the water in them can explode. Or, dry them out for a couple of years. If your kitchen is going to be the heart and livingroom and dining room of the house, forgoe building big living and dining rooms and try for an open design for circulation and maximum livability. Storage space is the name of the game- even a very small house can be very livable if there is storage built in. But, in the future, the livability of the house is going to center on energy efficiency. If gas is expected to go to $3 a gallon in California and Chicago this summer, look at heating oil costs, electrical and natural gas costs that will follow. Good luck on your dream!

-- seraphima (djones@kodiak.alaska.edu), May 07, 2001.


For temperate climates:

Design your house as much as possible with all the rooms you spend a lot of time in along the south wall, and spaces like stairways, laundry garage, etc. along the north side.

Put nearly all your windows on the south wall

Design the house so that the east west axis is about half again as long as the north south axis. This will maximize solar gain in winter, while minimizing it in winter.

Leave as many trees as possible around east, west and north sides of house. These (especially the east and west) will provide good shading in the summer, but not block the solar gain in the winter, because of where the sun rises and sets in different seasons.

If there's not adequate shading on east and west, build extra large overhangs on east and west roofs for summer shade.

Make sure you have enough windows (I also recommend a whole house fan) to cool off the house at night. Close windows and drapes after house cools down to keep house cool in summer.

Consider an attached greenhouse along the south side of house. This will help heat house when it's sunny, and will provide a tempered space along this side of house, helping to keep your heating bills low, even at night and during inclement weather. Waste heat from the house will help keep greenhouse warm, too. (I've only ever had to heat my greenhouse a total of two hours in three and a half years, because of this phenomenon)

Make sure you have plenty of ventilation in your attic, for keeping house cool in summer.

Install a heat exchanger gizmo to recover 50-80% of the energy used to heat the water you use in your shower (and possibly other areas)

Build, or buy, a solar water heater--big energy saver.

Install a wood heater, if you have a source of wood. For emergency power, it can't be beat (make sure it does not require electricity to run, though, as some, e.g. pellet stoves, do.)

Design your landscaping and install underground sprinklers before doing finish grading. Install automatic sprinler system-one little accident (like forgetting to turn off the water overnight) can waste as much water as you would otherwise use the rest of the irrigation season. It also allows you to use water all the time in a more efficient way, thus saving your water bills, or you aquifer.

If you are using a slab floor, consider installing pipes in the slab through which all your irrigation water passes, to cool off the slab in the summer.

Install an air inlet for the wood heater under the floor, which puts fresh air right next to the heater. This will avoid cold drafts coming around doors and windows.

Consider installing a "geothermal" (ground source) heat pump. They are as much as 400% efficient!

Evaluate the solar potential of your building site. Avoid building in a frost pocket (I did this on one house, and there was a temperature differential of as much as 28 degrees between my house site and my mailbox, which was 180 feet away)

Consider earth sheltering; while it's nice to cover the walls and the roof, you can cover only the walls, avoiding a lot of expense, and still have a very significant effect on heating and cooling. My house stays so cool, even though it's only earth sheltered downstairs, that we have only used the air con about five hours per summer.

Evaluate the overhangs on your south wall, for shading in summer and solar gain in winter.

Try to place water heater as close as possible to the points of use. Consider a small, separate water heater for very distant points of use.

Buy, borrow, or check out from the library, THE PASSIVE SOLAR ENERGY BOOK, by Edward Mazria. Read it; it's got lots of other good suggestions, energy charts, solar charts, etc. Published by Rodale Press, surprisingly enough.

I hope this gives you some ideas. Best wishes on your new house.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), May 07, 2001.


Hi Debbie!

I'm so happy for you!

My first thought was the same as Vicki's. A mud room! But also a coat closet by every entrance. This is the first house I've lived in that had a closet by the front door. No more coats hanging on the bottom of a stair rail or thrown over the first handy object such as a chair.

Don't skimp on windows! I know they're expensive but there's nothing worse than tiny windows. One house we rented had high windows that you couldn't see out of if you were sitting down. Felt like the walls were closing in on me all the time. Avoid too many on the south and west side though. Your a/c will be working overtime in the summer.

My other pet peeve is a long narrow hallway. If you have to have a long hall make it extra wide with built in book shelves! even an alcove with a seat. There are those round tube type sky lights if you need more natural light. Our long hall seems to be such a dark and wasted space.

My ex in-laws were French Canadian. They built their house so that all the bedrooms were right off of the kitchen. Dad said that was a traditional design up there. You come out of the bedroom and you're right there at the breakfast table.

Carpet in the dining room sucks!

Build in lots of storage space especially if you're a pack rat.

If it's more than one story try to position the main bathroom over the laundry room. Those same ex inlaws had what looked like a cupboard in the bathroom. It was actually a chute. You just gathered up the dirty laundry and threw it down there. It landed in the big laundry basket next to the washing machine.

ou'll also get a lot of great ideas if you can look at some of those Country Living type magazines at the library.

Have fun planning!!

Pauline NC

Oh, and a BIG deep sink in the mud room for washing collard greens, milking equipment and little kids (human type). Regular kitchen sinks just aren't big enough for that kind of stuff. And there's always some pan or dish in there waiting to be washed.

-- Pauline (tworoosters_farm@altavista.com), May 07, 2001.


Outdoor kitchen/screened porch for those hot summers!

-- Jerry (neljer@txcyber.com), May 07, 2001.

Outdoor kitchen/screened porch for those hot summers! Go ahead and add a fireplace out there too! Cellar/pantry accessible inside from the kitchen. Gravity supply water system.

-- Jerry (neljer@txcyber.com), May 07, 2001.

These are great! Thank you. Lots of things I haven't thought of and some I have already planned on. I have a 6'sink with drainboards on each side for the kitchen and a large/deep old one for the mudroom/sunroom. How about floors? I thought about brick or red clay colored tiles(less time cleaning red clay off the floor).

We will have a 'wood heated water stove for heat (housed in shed). We have all the wood that we will ever need and some needs to be cut.

Any one have a attached greenhouse? How do you like it?

How big are your kitchens? Thanks again. Keep them coming.

-- Debbie T in N.C. (rdtyner@mindspring.com), May 07, 2001.



Hello Debbie, Meli and I are building our house right now. We are doing the entire project on our own without contractors, heavy equipment, carpentry crews, nada. So, you can understand that we have to build it as effeciently and as cost conscious as possible. The way I figured it out was to first look at the natural aspects of my location. I followed the course of the sun to see whether or not the site had sufficient shade. I cut back into the forest thirty feet, just enough space for the house to be built into it and found that the trees provided shade nearly the entire day. I looked at how the rain fell and which way it rolled down the slope that I was planning on building on. It fortunately rolled away from the house enough that I felt confident that I could build a dry basement underneath the house. The size of the house was determined primary by the fact that we want to do it ourselves and wanted to pay cash. We chose a modest two story a-frame with two bedrooms upstairs, a large family room, a large kitchen and a large bathroom. There will be three porches, the largest one being the front porch as it is facing a spectacular view of the mountains. Another porch will come out from the upstairs bedroom which also faces the mountains. The third porch will be in the back of the house to use as a place to keep our freezer and wringer washing machine. Now, with all the minimum requirements figure out we will design each phase of the construction so that there will be room for expansion of either side or the back of the house in case we have more children or feel the need for additional rooms. The hardest task that we have faced is preparation of each step. Since we are the only one involved in the building of the house we have to gather the materials first before the actual building begins. Example, we poured our own concrete. The holes first had to be dug, (hand dug). Then the forms had to be built. The rebar, concrete mix and portland all had to be transported by us with the pick up truck. Then the concrete had to be mixed and poured by hand. The forms had to be torn down and the area had to be cleaned or cleared before the next phase. We have to do it all but, that is the fun part. Time of year, availability of materials, location, cost of type of materials you needs such as number 2 grade lumber verses number 3 grade lumber all had to be taken into consideration. How much of the work will you have to hire out? Will you be able to finish the house at a projected time schedule? We projected seven months to have the foundation and shell completed. Move in date will be as soon as the upstairs interior is completed. I have found that it is best to look at the whole project in sections or phases. That keeps it all in perspective and does not over whelm us with all the many things involved in the complete construction of the house. Right now we consider the building of the cellar as phase two. Phase one was the construction of the piers, which is to be our foundation. Phase three is the decking and phase four is the supersturcture. Phase five will be closing in the front and back walls and phase six will be insulating, and so on. I think you can see my point in how it keeps you in perspective of the project. With all of this in mind I wish you the best on your new building project and hope that I have offered you a little bit of help. Just make sure that you have fun and do not let it become a stressful experience. If you get a little stressed at what you are doing, just walk away for a while, take a swim, plant in your garden or whatever you do to relax and then try it again. Sincerely, Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), May 07, 2001.

My comments are shaped by living in Australia, and having more heat and less cold to worry about than most of you. However, some of my thoughts may still strike a chord. They are just random thoughts - not intended in any way to be a prescription.

Your back door mudroom or whatever (necessary!) may also be your laundry. Go from outside through laundry/mudroom to kitchen to living areas. Carry everything from living areas to laundry, wash, out back door to clothesline. Have a porch or verandah or carport or something there so you can still hang clothes or children outside even during rain. Think about putting bathroom adjacent to laundry and kitchen so plumbing is more compact (cheaper), and hot water doesn't have to run far. Think about having stove (and maybe space heater) heat your hot water - either completely, or with some other form of heating being a supplement. I'll be aiming for solar hot water when there's sun and (byproduct) wood-heated water when I need fires, but then I don't need to worry about a solar water heater freezing in winter.

The most efficient buildings as far as retaining heat are the most regular and compact (like a cube). For the same reason, they require the least outside wall material (cost) for the same amount of interior space, or give you more interior space for the same area of outside (walls and roof). Also, if you can heat a larger house it will retain the heat relatively more efficiently. Also, roofs are more expensive than walls - if you go two-storey then you (more or less) get the extra floor for the cost of its walls. Thus loft-houses retain heat better, and are more economical. Since hot air rises, it also puts the evening's heat up where you'll use it later - on the top-floor bedrooms. You need to think about the costs (and even dangers) of building high versus saving on material, though.

As above, hot air rises. Low ceilings will keep heat down where you can use it - high ceilings get the heat away from you in summer. If you do have high ceilings, think about having a big slow ceiling fan to circulate the hot air at ceiling height back down to you, with higher speeds to cool you during summer.

I won't build up because of bad back - stairs could be a problem at any time for any length of time, even if I don't break a leg. Think about health possibilities in the future - even in a loft house have at least one bedroom and bathroom downstairs. Also, think about building a ramp rather than stairs for at least your laundry/mudroom entrance - also means that you can wheel things in and out easily. Anyway in my case keeping cool is more of a worry than keeping warm - I'll tend to build more "ranch style" - strung out to cool off.

If you're using wood-heat and kitchen stove, think about having a small kitchen/kitchenette inside for winter use, where it can heat the house; and a separate summer/canning kitchen which won't heat the rest of the house during summer (or need heating during winter) when you don't want it to. This could even be a place of exile for rambunctious children during wet winter days, and that's important for the health of the adults and the continued existence of the children.

Investigate solar angles where you are during summer and winter. If you arrange the width of your eaves so that your windows receive the winter sun, but are shaded during summer, you're well on the way to solar-efficiency.

The suggestion about greenhouse for winter: use shadecloth in summer, and it can be a cool moist shaded buffer against the sun - natural air-conditioning.

Investigate composting toilet - can it work for you? Save enormous amounts of water if it can - does this matter to you, or do you have alternative sources of water good enough for this purpose?

Investigate storing the water that falls on your roof. Shed roofs too. We do this a lot in rural Australia. Divert the first few gallons to a smaller tank for the garden (all the dust and bird droppings), then the rest into a larger tank, and overflow to something else (more tanks, underground cistern?). Do the sums - how much roof area in square feet? How much annual rainfall in feet? Multiply together to give cubic feet, then convert to gallons. If you don't use it for flushing toilets, and you think water efficiency, that should be enough for a family for a year.

Investigate sheds. Agricultural sheds can provide a roof and some walls and lockable areas very quickly and quite economically. I'm thinking (long way off in my case) in terms of getting a big long one and putting everything into it. Build the house into one end of it, adjoining garages, then workshops, then agricultural machinery shed space (open front, with a section walled off by weldmesh for firewood storage and cutting), then hayshed, then grainshed, then barn / shearing shed / whatever for animals. I can walk from one end to the other with light and under shelter as if I were a gentleman, instead of slogging through the rain and sleet and mud and bitter wind at 3am. A LOT of water available from the roof. Also gives you a lot of undercover space while you’re building the residence. All your house- building could be undercover. Live in the garage while you’re building, or put a caravan in somewhere.

Investigate sheds. Or shipping containers. Or some form of on-site storage. The world is full of criminals. If they see you driving past on your way to town (or in town), or learn you're only there on weekends, or always at church on Sundays, or always have a meal out on Friday night, or hear you have to go away for a week, or anything, leaving a remote isolated spot unattended, they'll accept the invitation. They’ll steal your tools. They’ll steal your building materials. They’ll even steal your plants. Or maybe just trash everything because they’re juvenile delinquents.



-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), May 08, 2001.


We were in a similar situation 4 years ago when we built our home. Mid-life and never did this before. Here are my suggestions: 1) Do not finish everything at one time, live in the house as you're building to get a feel for what you want where and how it all works together. 2) Leave options for adding on as you go 3) Centralize as much as you can things like plumbing, electrical, storage. Hope this helps. We're 4 years into this and still finishing and making changes as we go. Good luck, have fun and get away from it once in awhile.

-- Rose Marie Wild (wintersongfarm@yahoo.com), May 08, 2001.

We close on our home in the country next month. The kitchen is 19'6" x 15'6". A large kitchen was my only criteria really, one that has windows I could look out of and plenty of light. The windows we will be adding. The people who own now enclosed the patio which is next to the kitchen and blocked out a lot of the light. We are going to put a sky light or 2 there and put in larger windows on the west side going into the enclosed patio. My wood cookstove will go out there. Now it is a 3 season porch but we will make it a year round affair. We will turn the closed that is in the kitchen into a pantry and probably enclose an area of the basement for a food storage room. I like a house with lots of light, one where even on a cloudy day you do not have to turn the lights on.

A mud room...YES!. In our home to be when you come in the back way you come in from the enclosed patio, up a step to a landing...that is where we will put hooks for coats, etc.,then into the kitchen or down into the basement.

I agree with the others about designing you kitchen/dining roomm/living room first and add on from there. How important are large bedrooms or bathrooms for example. I, for one do not want to clean all of that.

Maybe you would like a greenhouse attached to the kitchen so you could grow herbs year round. A lot depends on how much you have to spend.

I don't think any home will every be perfect, unless you have an unlimited source of money and my feeling on that is, I would rather help others than have a mansion.

Start looking in magazines to get ideas. Go to home shows and things like that. Somethings I thought I would want in the kitchen and after seeing them in a kitchen setting at some of the shows, I did not want anymore. Thought they were a waste of money. Same thing with the bathroom.

Good Luck!

-- Cordy (ckaylegian@aol.com), May 08, 2001.


Debbie,

You mentioned brick floors. We rented a wonderful little house in the woods in Western Washington and it had a floor of re-cycled brick. I loved it! Quarry tiles are nice but can be extremely slick after mopping. Pick something with texture.

Since this is the house you plan to live out your life in think ahead. The ramp into the mud room is a great idea. Also make all your doorways inside and out wide enough to accomodate a wheelchair. I know it's not something that's nice to think about but it would be awfull to have to leave your dream home in later life simply because you can't get around in it. (and it will be way more expensive then to re-model) May as well plan for the worst now and know that you'll be able to enjoy it for a good long time!

Another must have for me would be kitchen counter tops a little lower than the norm.(I'm short). Especially the one where you will be rolling pastry. I have to carry everything to the dining table to work comfortably and that's in our carpeted dining room. Then I have to get up all the bits of pastry out of the carpet (I'm short and messy).... Imagine all those little tasks you plan to do often and make the work space comfortable for you. And you can never have enough counter space!

Pauline

Pauline

-- Pauline (tworoosters_farm@altavista.com), May 09, 2001.



Pauline, good point about the bench height. I had already decided that kitchen benches will be at least two inches higher than normal (bad back again - it HURTS to have to bend over a bench that's too low). If I remarry, either she'll be tall, or she'll have to stand on a box. Get it right for your family. On the same subject, make sure the bases of the kitchen cupboards are recessed enough to get your toes under them - makes a lot of difference being able to get six inches closer to them, and stand straight (thanks, Dad). In fact, my kitchen cupboards will be hung from the walls, off the floor far enough so I can easily sweep under them, and see under them - no pests in cupboards.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), May 09, 2001.

Since you all are still at it :) Formica your window sills, sides and tops, makes cleanup a breeze and no more peeling paint. And do not move into a half finished house if at all possible! Once it is liveable you won't believe how quickly construction grinds to a halt! Especially when husband "Tim Allen" is all into the construction phase and not the girly baseboards, painting etc.! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 09, 2001.

Thanks everyone! I am going to print this out in a few days and put it with "The Book" as my oldest daughter calls it. I have a hugh note book full of things I like, things I need and things I want.

No one has mentioned a trash compactor-- Does anyone use one? I had thought it would be nice to make less trips to the dump!

Vicki, My husband is the same way! I won't move in unless there is NO other way (I won't say never because--- well you know)until it is complete.

-- Debbie T in N.C. (rdtyner@mindspring.com), May 10, 2001.


Has anyone mentioned a recycling area? Could be in the mud room, kitchen, whatever. And a floorplan I fell in love with had a room they called a "clutter room". They combined the laundry room with a potting area, sewing area and workbench. It was about 13x13, lined with cabinets and counters, with an island in the center for folding clothes, cutting patterns, etc.

-- Ladybug (sklukas@mail.state.tn.us), May 10, 2001.

Debbie, You've certainly gotten some excellent in-put here. I'll pass along a hint from when my in-laws remodeled their kitchen some years ago. My mother-in-law spent hours with her favorite recipes, mentally walking through the steps of preparation. She was able to arrange the kitchen for efficiency and convenience based on the way she really used it. Design for a big kitchen should take into account the 'little day to day jobs' as much as the big events like entertaining or canning. Good luck with your new home! -Nina

-- Nina in E TX (nchick4997@aol.com), May 12, 2001.

The best features of my new house: Island in the kitchen, and high counters in the bathrooms, insulated windows, nine foot ceilings, ceiling fans in every room, switches for exterior flood lights also located in my bedroom where I can reach them quickly at night if needed, extra deep kitchen sink with soap dispenser, the quietest dishwasher I could buy, the trash compactor was the best investment since it only churns out one sack a week, I only have to go to the dump once weekly and one sack is $1. Oh yeah... our water is very hard, so my water softener is a necessity ( less soap needed and the white things get whiter) Start early on making color selections, cause you'll change your mind many times before you have to make a final decision! :) Good luck and have fun with it... Carole

-- Carole in Texas (carle@earthlink.net), May 14, 2001.

Doing all that farm house building in the great state of North Carolina should include a ---generator house---. In today's world the farm can not go without at least some electricity. Do you have a stream or small river running on your property? If so, maybe a small hydro house. Chech out motherearthnews.com and the magazine and ask them. Also back woods magazine. I would also get rid of such things as electronic phones of all kinds, I have two old, black, rotary phones and they are the best, cant kill them. Also, get rid of answering machines, tv's, nintendo's, anything small. Food processors too. Keep the computer. I also dream of the same. And one day, who knows. Till then I will keep buying the books and picking other peoples brains. Any other questions, please e-mail me or if you just would like to share your " Book ". www.redbeardguy@hotmail.com have fun every day!

-- Donald White (redbeardguy@hotmail.com), August 20, 2001.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ