Morons with Guns, or Anybody Else Want to Bring Back Public Hanging?

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This is not about gun control, this is about the basic Libertarian philosophy that begs/pleads for personal responsibilty, that is, "You do the crime, you do the time". Specifically, the high school student in San Diego that killed two folks and injured many others. If I hear one more time on NPR (I don't watch/listen to any other bleeding heart liberal media, especially TV) that this person was the subject of frequent teasing, I am going to scream! Plenty of us managed to become responsible, non-violent teenagers, then adults, that were raised in "less than ideal" curcumstances, so why make such "excuses" for this criminal?

I am all for bringing back public hanging for such cases as capitol crimes like this, and feel that the parents of this criminal deserve a minimum sentence of at 10,000 hours of community service for their responibilty, or lack thereof, in "raising" this person.

What's your opinion on this matter?

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 07, 2001

Answers

I think you are crazy.

-- (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), March 07, 2001.

Hi Annie, I tend to agree with your attitude though we might not agree on the details.

Public hanging was a great, cheap, public spectacle for centuries. There was a recent case in Afghanistan where a man was found guilty of murder but there they give the victims' family a say in the punishment including 'an eye for an eye'. The government officials recommended clemency but the family demanded their rights so one man got to cut another man's throat in front of a big crowd at the stadium.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 07, 2001.


Personal responsibility or the lack of is what I think is probably THE root cause for most of our societal woes. EVERYTHING seems to be the fault of someone else, never-ever the person with the problem, fault or "dysfunction".

I agree about this "he was constantly teased" defense. I was the skinny dorky kid who was always chosen last and teased incessantly and bullied every day (or so it seemed to me at the time). But I also had the fear of consequences imbedded in me. I was made to take the consequences for my actions both at home AND at school. I was given corporal punishment in the home and at school. If I was to use the wrong tone of voice to my parents or teachers, there were consequences, usually a quickly administered slap to bring me quickly back to reality and civility. I made it through all of this without any major problems, and a deep respect for taking responsibility for my own actions.

In our house, there were at minimum 30 rifles and about 20 handguns, with at least 1000 rounds of ammunition per caliber. It was this imbedded fear/respect for having to answer for my actions that kept me from taking advantage of the weapons and blowing away my advisories. Hell, I carried myself correctly because my concern went so far as to worrying about a neighbor calling my folks to tell them that they saw me smoking or in the wrong place at the wrong time or with the wrong kind of folks - anything that would put my young but in jeopardy with my parents. You always have to pay the piper - ALWAYS!

People today, and kids in particular have no concept of having to take responsibility for their actions. It is always something or someone else's fault. They were teased, they were bullied, they had attention deficit disorder, they were hyper active, they had bad toilet training, their Mother smoked, their blah blah blah...

Believe me once you know the sting of assuming responsibility, you lead a different life style. If you know what it's like to get punched in the nose for opening your mouth in a smartalec way, you'll way your words next time.

-- Willy Allen (willyallen2@yahoo.com), March 07, 2001.


I personally would have just liked to have teachers able to open cary on campus. If someone would have been there with an available gun at least twelve of those people would not have been hurt or killed. I think we need to make schools liberal free zones. As far as public hanging goes, why don't we just follow through on the laws we already have? Long live Texas and Oklahoma!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), March 07, 2001.


Hang the parents and give the kid a lifetime in prison to think about his actions.

-- Lynn Goltz (lynngoltz@aol.com), March 07, 2001.


I think the kid should be executed within one week with students of that school all standing around him shouting things like "dork" and "four-eyes" and all the other things the media say he was called.

-- Joe (jcole@apha.com), March 07, 2001.

YES!!!!

First... don't all the 'experts' tell us that the punishment should fit the crime??? Well - I am all for public executions. But. Don't hang him... Pump him full of bullets!! Let the punishment FIT the crime!!!

Second... While I agree that under normal circumstances the parents should also be punished... I think we ought to start with the people that tie our hands. Government should not expect the parents to have the responsibility when the government has taken away our authority.

First lets get our rights as parents back. THEN we can punish the parents when they lose control of their children.

I spanked my daughter for lighting the grass in our yard on fire, playing with a neighbor's lighter. That neighbor called DCFS. I now have a file. Go figure. The neighbor can give the kid a lighter to go burn down the neighborhood (INCLUDING HER HOUSE, right next door), but I go to court and face losing the child because I took it away and spanked her butt.

Now, I don't believe in beating a kid half to death, but there ain't nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned spanking - and that's exactly what I told the judge. Got 80 hours community service and a suspended sentence.

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), March 07, 2001.


Sorry that you got in trouble for tanning her hide. Instant retribution to fit the crime should be metered out on the spot, butas you found out these days we can't do that. That is what I was carping about above... Ten to one she'll think thrice about playing with fire next time because she don't want her butt warmed. She stood the consequences for her actions. Now had she gotten a "time out" and a " I don't want to deminish your image of self in any way but I must tell you that we don't really want you to play with fire, but you can if you need too." for her trouble, she wouldn't think twice about the consequences because there were none.

-- Willy Alln (willyallen2@yahoo.com), March 07, 2001.

Annie, I agree in principle with your position here, but we shouldn't categorically blame the parents. Their responsibility lies somewhere between 0 percent and 100 percent, and that's all we know at this point. If you raise 6 kids with the same genes, the same priviledges and the same discipline, you will come out with 6 different personalities. Five could be saints and the other turn out like Jeffery Dahmer.

-- Dan G. (stagecoach@hotmail.com), March 07, 2001.

I agree with Dan! A good parent can have a bad child. Government needs to back off and let parents raise their children.

-- Shau Marie (shau@centurytel.net), March 07, 2001.


Annie, I haven't listened to whatever you have, so I don't know what they said or are saying about teasing. However, I DO believe that the reasons (ALL the reasons) for this kid's actions should be known and examined. I believe in taking responsibility for your own actions -- so, if there are people tormenting others, how about THEM taking responsibility for THEIR actions?

Yeah, yeah, I know, there are lots of people who were tormented and didn't go kill anyone. I'm not defending the killing -- I'm saying the actions of the tormentors have consequences as well. Illustrative story: A boy a year ahead of me in high school (and this was the late 1960's) was constantly teased, denigrated, picked on and put down. He had nothing going for him as far as I could tell (I wasn't personally acquainted with him, but it was a small school where you at least knew WHO was who, even if you didn't actually know them), but does that mean he deserved such treatment? Not in my opinion, not then, not now. Eventually, he found a girlfriend, a sort of an outcast herself. Then she dumped him in a very cruel manner, and he had to endure more teasing about this. So he got a gun (very accessible in my community/culture at that time). And he blew his own brains out.

When I heard the news, I was horrified. And I felt so sorry for him, to think that he was so tormented that he thought it better to be dead than face any more of it. Can we imagine that much pain? Maybe some of us can, but were lucky that something happened that they didn't follow this path. Some kids who are tormented turn and murder others; many, many more just kill themselves. Doesn't this matter? Where is the responsibility for causing the torment? Where are the parents of the tormenters? Some aren't aware that their kids are bullies. But there is a whole wide band of indifference when it comes to PREVENTING such bullying behavior. Both from parents and from the rest of the population.

As for public hanging/execution, I cannot imagine wanting to observe such a thing. Would you truly want to see with your own eyes any human being twisting and slowly strangling? You see, they don't always just instantly break their necks. Would you enjoy it? Would you want your children to watch that? Would you make them watch that? To me, that would be child abuse.

What about this: This murderous kid felt he was wronged and took revenge. Now you feel you have been wronged by his actions and want the revenge of seeing him publicly hanged. Are your desires so different?

Annie, I've always enjoyed your posts in the past. If you don't really mean that you believe in public execution, that you're just expressing your frustration over this horrific (and increasingly prevalent) crime, I understand. I once posted here that I'd probably kill someone who purposely ran over my cat. I really don't think that I would, but I would be FURIOUS, and I probably would NEVER forgive that person. But if you really do mean it, then I totally disagree, and if that sort of thing were to become law, I would attempt to move to some other country that wouldn't countenance such a thing.

-- Joy F (So.Central Wisconsin) (CatFlunky@excite.com), March 07, 2001.


No Joy, I would not enjoy watching a public hanging and I know that capitol punishment is no way to bring back those who have been killed, and that two wrongs do not make a right, but we need SOMETHING to deter these people from their actions, I cannot simply see keeping them locked up for the rest of their lives as a deterrent! That is NOT working at all. I would not let my children watch a public hanging either, it would not be suitable.

I reiterate that public hanging would be for capitol crimes ONLY, those crimes that are so horrendous that an example must me made so society can see the cause and effect of responsibilty in action.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 07, 2001.


Oh, Joy, NPR is National Public Radio, sorry for the initials.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 07, 2001.

Now they are "wondering" about chemical imbalances and the onset of puberty as the reasons for his actions, or rather in the liberals eyes, excuses for his actions. Understanding the reasons for someones actions should not be confused with their having to stand up for the consequences. I think that we should nod knowingly and say "Yes, I understand" as we place the noose around their neck and trip the trap door.

-- Willy Allen (willyallen2@yahoo.com), March 07, 2001.

Get a rope.Hang the kid slowly.Leave the parents alone.We are all responsible for our own actions if old enough to know right from wrong.

-- JT (gone2seed@hotmail.com), March 07, 2001.


Annie did you take your kava today?????? But I do happen to agree with you! What else is new in that ! I would like to say that I think the punishment should be immediate. You do it this hour you are gone the next. No time for pitty parties or maybe just this once we will give you a break since everyone was SOOOO mean to you and you had such a rough life!!!! If people know that punshment IS death and it IS going to be done I don't think you would see all this happening! Robin

-- Robin (frontzfarm@1st.net), March 07, 2001.

I had been (all of my school "career", since 1st grade) teased, bullied, laughed at, and made fun of for reasons which I am still (at 32) in the dark about. Maybe it was my clothes, my brains, my indifference to social ranking or (for that matter) anything outside my own skull (well, everytime I peeked out, someone was there to poke me in the eye). It must have been something consistant, because we moved around a lot, to a widely diverse group of areas, and the abuse and ridicule followed me without wavering from school to school. Nothing I could say or do would stop it, ameliorate it, or do so much as dent it. If I had had access to a gun, would I have gone postal?

Quite likely. Those of you who have been there know what I mean. I'm not talking about a little nya-nya on the playground, either. In (I believe) second grade, it was so bad that the teacher had a Soncire day, In which everyone was required to bring me a card or something nice, with recess withheld for those who didn't! Like that was going to do anything but make it worse. However, the feeling of ha! ha! and power that I felt at being in a position to take away someone's recess merely by reporting a no-show (which I did gleefully) was intoxicating, and I can readily understand how some kids in a more violence saturated society than I grew up in, with ready access to firearms could easily give themselves over to the same feelings that I did, with whatever tools are at hand.

Not being near a gun, or other fairly success-assured weapon, I combatted it another way - I simply "bled" internally for years on end. I ended up with a ruined digestive system (at 15), an ongoing distrust and general loathing for my fellow man (which I am just now barely coming out of), and a permanent set of dangerously frayed nerves (can you say heart palpitations and stress-related disorders?). Finally, when I was old enough to get my share of attention and approval by other means, I did - to be blunt, I f****d every man in sight for most of my teen years because 1) suddenly, I was very popular, and with guys that were even (gasp) out of school, and 2) it gave me a sense of control and power over them that I can still feel tempting me sorely, like a powerful drug once tasted and now restrained from, 12 years into a faithfully monogamous marriage.

So, the lesson for the day is - when people gang up on others, to tease, taunt, and ridicule, then somebody is going to end up seriously wounded, if not dead. Who ends up this way is more a matter of complete, random chance than any of you want to believe. Humans will only take so much abuse and degradation before fighting back - we all know this. These days, fighting back just involves bigger sticks than it used to. I could have been a shooter - I know that in my heart, and I loathe those who thought it was in their best interests to put me in that state of mind for 12 years straight. (No problems in college, where such losers tend to be winnowed out pretty early, or sent to hazings in fraternity houses for their sins).

So do I say hang him? No. Take away his reward - don't make his name a household one, don't let anyone know who did it and the thrill of getting even pales. But that's beside the point. My verdict, from a jury that knows, is to hang the tormentors. Slowly. And let me watch.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), March 07, 2001.


when most of us were growing up we had families not many of us knew any kids who had separated or divorced parents. (i'm speaking in general here), teachers, parents, police were respected , not today. 50% +- of marriages fail latch key kids, filth & vile crap on tv, music (if, you can call it that ie rap). religion banned from just about everywhere. i don't know about you but, this is one reason out of many that i made the decision to be out beyod the sidewalks. this young boy did a terrible thing his life is over. never mind all the liberal claptrap it's over as much as the other kids that he killed. how bout the copy cat stuff going on all over the country what do you have to say about that? why? what do children need to put themselves back onto the right track? how about parents that are involved... parents that care.. parents that lock up yah! the guns. no, this is not a second ammendment issue. but, the discussion has to begin, this must be addressed before we lose our rights to own firearms and these lives must be saved. give me your ideas. bob m.

-- bob mccaffrey (bobmccaffrey1@netscape.net), March 07, 2001.

Bob, guns don't kill people, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE, and that has got to stop by having a deterrent that means something, like death. Yeah, it's not pretty, but what other deterrent is appropriate for MURDER IN THE FIRST DEGREE?

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 07, 2001.

I think we really have to remember that kids are flat out cruel a lot of the time. In the society we have fostered, there really isn't a lot care giving being done in a lot of homes. A tv and a computer are poor replacements for loving and concerened and AVAILABLE parentS. Also, the entire system at this point is a piece of garbage. We throw kids into school as early as we can, straight out of daycare...they never feel loved and secure and then WE BLAME THE OTHER KIDS???? We feed them a steady diet of wrasslin' and football and shoot em up videos and movies, not to mention food that causes lab rats to become extremely anti social and hostile, throw them into situations where the people in "power" are not given full authority, or given the wrong kinds of authority, and are amazed when this stuff happens? I don't think so. It's a recipe for disaster.

Parents have a most tremendous responsibility and the government and the people of this country, in the name of 2 things, commerce and ill conceived do gooding, have insured that we have a larger supply of little homicidal maniacs on the rampage.

Public hanging would only feed the blood lust we already have. By the time a kid is 8 the parents are almost done, I'd guess at ten it isn't anything more than guidance for very few people. If a person is old enough to decide to kill someone, they already know what they are doing and are culpable themselves. Some things shouldn't be tolerated, no matter what level of teasing one has endured. Murder and child molestation ought to both be punished by the death penalty, in my opinion. Never, ever should it be televised, nor should life be trivialized. It's serious business.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 07, 2001.


I agree Doreen, the enforcement of the death penalty should not be televised or made the latest media "event", that would indeed trivialise it. But death by lethal injection is too clean and nice, the same as euthanasia in my opinion. What I mean by public hanging is the punishment be carried out, without fanfare, behind the jail nearest the town where the murder occured. That way those involved and affected can observe, or not.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 07, 2001.

Locked up guns are only going to cost more INNOCENT lives. "Uh excuse me, Mr. Rapistmurderingburglar, sir...I need to get my key before I can properly defend myself and my family against you, hold please......" What a crock. Keeping drugs from kids has seemed to cause them to become even more violent. Does anyone else find that kind of darkly humorous? Just an observation, certainly not meant to be seen as a solution to the violence.

I agree with you, Annie, that the solution is to make it quick and local. I just have qualms about making it as violent as the original act...It's like when you have to kill anything sentient, it should pain you, even if the death is completely warranted and deserved. I believe that punishment should be carried out, but it shouldn't be done with vengeance as the first and most apparent attribute, even if it's an especially heinous crime. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, even though I am having trouble trying to say it.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 07, 2001.


Qh My God Soni!!!! Thats the most honest post I've heard in a long time. I grew up in public schools and I witnessed incredble suffering. Kids getting picked on not just every day but year after year! I once saw a kid, who had enough, drive his pencil 4 inches into a guys back. If he had a gun we would have all been dead! Until ALL children can have a learning place thats safe, I guess this will just keep happening. So what we witness is only the tragic end result of a much greater problem......Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), March 08, 2001.

One more reason to homeschool and ban TV and Nintendo. Kids raised thinking it's okay for SuperMario to bash someone's brain in tend to be less concerned about it when it really happens.

I agree that good parents can have bad kids -- the chance is there -- but bad parents almost ALWAYS have bad kids -- so lessen the odds. Parent your kids, don't ignore them in favor of another sitcom.

-- Tracy (trimmer@westzone.com), March 08, 2001.


Tracy, that was well spoken.

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 08, 2001.

Annie, Doreen DO THE MATH!!!

There were about 25,000 murders last year. Let's say conservatively that about 12,000 fall into the pre-meditated / heinous / dispicable category. Okay, take 12,000 divided by 313 days (subtract 52 Sundays from 365 days. We don't want to execute on the Sabbath! HORRORS!)...

...and you get 38 EXECUTIONS A DAY, MONDAY THRU SATURDAY! Now consider that the Chinese Commies ONLY executed about 1200 people last year. So in the land of the free and the home of the brave our execution ratio to the Commies would be 10 to 1.

Ah yes, we would REALLY be sending a message to the rest of the world now wouldn't we. And of course, public executions would deter crime. Just the way they have for the past several thousand years. Uh, huh. You Betcha.

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (cmiller@ssd.com), March 08, 2001.


Growing up the odd ball as i did i was treased alot. sadly when i hear storys like this and i know its wrong, i still cheer for the odd ball. I've wanted to shoot a few folks my self, and its not like i didn't have access to guns. Dad had a closet full with amo right there . I also was shown how to handle a gun at a early age. but I was also told that you never point a gun at some one unless you intend to kill them, and you had better have a damn good reason. every thing you do has a price attached to it. I think the kid should be hung, but i also think that those who teased him should be there to see what their teaseing brought about( everything we do has a price ) and i also think that this should stay in that area. that is their heartache, we shouldnt make a spectacal out of it, as the media seems to often do.

-- MikeinKS (mhonk@oz-online.net), March 08, 2001.

I wholeheartedly agree that the punishment should fit the crime. However I am not a big advocate of public hanging. Hanging I have no problem with but I sure don't want to be driving through town and come upon a hanging in progress. Do ya'll remember here a couple of years back when there was a public outcry about the teen that got into trouble in Singapore and they caned him? Now that is a fitting punishment for his crime....bet it was a pretty good deterent to that young man for the remainder of his stay there too. I wouldn't mind bringing back public 'stocks'(those things where you sit there with your head and hands locked in the wooden thing), humiliation is a good teacher.

Prison time is no deterrent. Now a days it is a status thing for a young person to have been in jail....the other teens look up to them! I am all for bringing back hard time....they should be made to do hard physical labor. We have a large prison population. They could go a long ways toward paying their debt to society in a lot of ways. Unfortunately a lot of folks look at this as inhumane.....they should have feather pillows and the best of medical care(even if hard working tax payers can't afford basic medical care). Our system has gotten so far out of balance I'm afraid that it will take a radical revamping for us to come back to any kind of sane system.

I agree with what has been said by several others on here. Give the parents back their rights. Get rid of the trash that is on TV. Something that hasn't been mentioned previously.....do ya'll know what percentage of our young people are on ritalin or similar drugs? I can't help but think that this will really accelerate or societies downward spiral. Oh don't worry about restraining yourself....we'll give you a pill and we won't hold you responsible for anything you do. Children can't have changed that much from when I was little. In my younger years I only knew one young man that truely needed medication. The rest of us were just normal kids(normal meaning full of energy and curiosity). I don't know what the exact right answer is to dealing with our increasingly insane society but I danged sure know it isn't what is being done now!

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), March 08, 2001.


Craig...it would certainly be a deterrent to the gangs that have you kill someone in order to get in....Kill the people who kill. Jail isn't any deterrent. Three squares a day and a bestial existence in a penned atmosphere isn't going to reform anyone. Maybe one or two who just MADE A MISTAKE like burglary or God forbid, drugs; murder isn't something to be taken lightly, and right now for the most part, we have the same punishment for every crime in this country and it isn't doing any good. And the numbers on the Chinese are circumspect and their own propaganda. Let's see how you feel if someone were to brutally murder your daughter.

I know a man who murdered. He had been incarecerated since the age of thirteen. He lived with us as part of a prison outreach for a year or more when I was around nine. James Multaler(sp) in Wisconsin. He raped and killed 6 women after living with us. My dad quit working with the prison outreach after that. I believe he never harmed any of us because we were nothing but kind to the man. It didn't stop him from killing six innocent women down the road.He told the judge that he was dangerous and needed to be locked up permanently, and I believe he was. He was in for armed robbery prior to living with us. I don't believe my father would have knowingly housed a murderer with 5 young kids. The point is, some people will not be reformed. Some crimes REQUIRE the ultimate penalty.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 08, 2001.


"We have the SAME punishment for every crime in this country and it isn't doing any good." Workplace theft: time in jail. Axe murder: time in jail. Insurance fraud: time in jail. Child molester: time in jail. Shoplifting: time in jail. Gang rape: time in jail. Perjury: time in jail. (well...depends who you are) Shooting spree: time in jail. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??? Doreen has a point. "Some crimes require the ULTIMATE penalty."

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 08, 2001.

Craig, good point, but using your figures as an example, 38 capital punishments a day is less than one per state per day, I do not have a problem with that. Do you have any idea how many criminals have been put to death in the states of Texas and Oklahoma in the past year alone? I don't know offhand, but I bet Doreen or Little Bit know, it's a lot considering those states don't have such high population density numbers, it translates into a very high per capita capital punishment ratio per state population! Nobody has complained about those states killing criminals yet, so why here and now?

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 08, 2001.

I like the idea of armed school teachers, of course all the pupils should be armed too, just to equalise things you know.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 08, 2001.

I would like to know why so many are ignoring Soni's post like it never happened...like it was fine to mentally torture a person every day and that they should just suck it up and 'deal with it'. I am sure this will get ignored as well, because the truth is that people don't want to deal with their possible culpability in this. While this is likely an insoluable problem, what is being done to curb the problem before it starts? What are you doing to prevent this tragedy from happening again? It is far easier to build a decent child than try to repair a damaged adult.

As Craig observed, a death penalty has never deterred murder and as long as humans remain as they are, it isn't likely to. If you want the figures for executions for in Texas, here they are: 1977/1, 1978/0, 1979/2, 80/0, 81/1,82/2,83/5,84/21,85/18,86/18,87/25, 88/11, 89/16, 90/23, 91/14, 92/31, 93/38, 94/31, 95/74, 96/68, 97/74, 98/68, 99/98, 2000/85. This seems to indicate to me that A. it's not a deterrant and B. the increasing numbers show this fallacy.

I greatly admire Soni for her candor and for baring such an intimate detail of her life. I think it is one that more people need to start looking at and stop ignoring.

We are dealing with a subject that does NOT have easy, one-word solutions. I am speaking of the 'Just say "NO"' philosophy. Homeschooling is not the solution to the problem, altho it could keep a lot of bullies home and protect the children in school. A ban on Television is not the solution, sadistic torture and murder have been with us for thousands of years. Hanging is not the solution, nor any other threat of terminal bodily harm, murder rates do not decrease. Locking up guns/arming all is not the solution. In all likelihood, we are dealing with an INSOLUABLE problem, short of the extinction of the human race as a whole.

A good friend of mine of many years finally opened up to me one day, and told how she was systematically raped and sodomized every Sunday after church by her grandfather (non biological). This went on from the ages of 7 to 14. This man didn't see this on Television. Nor on a Nintendo game. He wasn't on drugs. Church didn't deter him. Neither did his wife(who encouraged it, and accused her of "not being able to show affection properly"), nor this woman's mother(makes you wonder what SHE was exposed to growing up) , and as it turned out in later years, neither did her relatives. Did she turn out to be a killer? No, 'merely' an near-alcoholic (and her younger brother an alcoholic) because the family thought that drinking was immoral. It was their one possible form of rebellion. And she has been in psychotherapy for 15+ years.

She said that she LOVED school. School was the place where she was safe from being dragged out of her hiding place and raped. In this instance, homeschooling is not the answer. She would have also loved it if some child welfare people had forced their way into their home and saved her, but unfortunately, no one outside the family suspected.

It is amazing that she, like Soni, survived at all, unlike the boy that Joy mentioned above. Perhaps it is because women are more resiliant and have had to be over the centuries, or perhaps it is because these two have had a deeper well in their souls to draw from.

I do not think that execution, whether a swifter one through lethal injection, or more sadistic methods suggested are going to make a difference. It hasn't for thousands of years.

I have another friend...a wonderfull, funny, bright friend, extremely intelligent (scholarships galore), with great notivation, a kind heart, and all kinds of stress related health problems. As she said to me in a late night heart-to-heart..."Well. YOU know what it's like...when you come home late, and your father is waiting for you with a baseball bat again, so you run to a friend's house to sleep instead."

No. I have NO IDEA. I have NO IDEA what these people -- Soni,my two friends, and others --have had to endure. I am deeply, truly, humbly grateful that I Do Not Know the first-hand way that they do.

-- julie f. (rumplefrogskin@excite.com), March 08, 2001.


I'm proud of ya, Jules! I, too, am in awe of Soni's bravery in making such a post, and I wonder why so many are ignoring it, as if this is something that doesn't exist.

I see that 20/20 (TONIGHT--March 8th, ABC, 9 pm CST) will be having a report on what adolescents that have been "educated" about guns will do when they "find" a gun and no adults are around. I haven't seen it yet either, but I did see a few clips on the evening news. Their parents were shocked. You all might want to watch that.

-- Joy F (So.Central Wisconsin) (CatFlunky@excite.com), March 08, 2001.


And just as sure as the sun rises in the east, ABC's 20/20 program will ONLY ONLY ONLY portray the odd 4% of 'gun-exposed' adolescents! (the ones that could help their 'gun-control' agenda............... No, Joy, I do not see that watching that yarn would help anything or anyone.

-- The Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 08, 2001.

Can somebody tell me what liberal means when it's used, as it is on several posts here, as a cussword? I've considered myself a liberal for years and I'll be reading a post, pretty much agreeing or at least understanding the sentiment, then suddenly the poster will spit out this "liberal" word that could easily be replaced in context with a number of cusswords. What is that about? Feels a lot like a slap in the face to me. And this is from people whose posts I normally enjoy!

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), March 08, 2001.

Capital punshment is a sad but necessary evil in today's society. However, I feel that a lethal injection is all that is required: hanging, electric chair, etc. is overkill (no pun intended). Death is the punishment, there is no need to be as sadistic or cruel as the perpetrator. Soni, I love your honesty and my heart goes out to you. You are an incredibly strong person, whether you know it or not, and I'm glad yours is a story with a happy ending. Forgiveness. Every child needs to learn how to forgive early in his/her life. It does not get easier as we grow older - on the contrary! Don't forgive because they deserve it...forgive because you do! It is not a one-time act. I have to work at forgiving what was done to me as a child every day of my life, and I do it because it eases the turmoil/pain in my head, heart & soul. My life is better because I can forgive, though I will never forget, and I feel it makes me a stronger person for it. Parents' responsibility for their children...hmmmm...I could really be long winded here. All the members in a Native American tribe were responsible for the children. They ran free through the village and were protected & corrected by all who saw them. This is as it should be today, people helping people, watching out for one another young and old. Parents do hold the main responsibility for their own children, of course, I am not denying that. A big problem with today's society is that people are afraid to help others when they see someone in need for fear of rebuke, retaliation or worse! The Golden Rule should practiced at home, and be taught in every school, grade and classroom in America. Not just a banner on the wall, but studies and examples to learn by. Every teacher should make a point of having a practical application for TGR each month. Again, this is something parents' should do, but we know that they all don't. Teachers reach so many kids, and often the children will listen to the teacher whereas they may not listen to their folks. There is an empty void in too many of our children!

-- Melody, AL (RealWorld3D@hotmail.com), March 08, 2001.

It's pretty simple if there was more people like Soni, JOY, and Jules, around we wouldn't be discussing this at all. The rest of you are sad cases to say the least.

And while i'm getting your hate mail. Explain why the lady doesn't know her daughters at the neighbors obtaining a lighter. Hasn't taught the consequences of playing w/fire. But has taught not to get caught or you'll get hit. Then lays the blame on the neighbor for a file??

-- (digger1936@yahoo.com), March 08, 2001.


Most of us grew up with the little ditty "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me." Any of you who have been on the wrong side of those words know that it should go "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words forever harm me." My first thought was that all of those who did the teasing should be forced to realize that their actions had a DIRECT relationship pn achild losing his ability to cope and committing a deed he had no real way of fully realizing the scope and terror of. Recent research into brain structure and adolescent thinking and ability to reason has shown that teenagers really don't have a full long range picture of the consesquences of their actions-even very serious actions. Their brain chemistry and maturity just aren't adult yet, even when their bodies look like grown up. I can't even imagine how hearing that from peers over a long period of time could affect a child-especially one that had only one parent at home to support him. As a single parent I know how hard it is to be there completely for your child when you've worked a full shift, done the grocery shopping, meal prep and clean- up and the laundry-and now they need homework, discipline and love. I understand where the rest of you come from, a different world than I do. I for one feel only sorrow that his pain and alienation left him feeling that he had no other comfort, and now he will spend the rest of his life paying for the only way he could think of to stop the pain. Was he right? NO, NO a thousand times NO. Was he in pain? yes Confused? yes Scared? that it would never stop, YES. Can't you just for a moment stop feeling the pain for the dead and injured and feel the pain of the one who will suffer for the rest of his life for this action? He was wrong, he deserves to be punished- BUT he is and was a little boy, scared, sad and in mental anguish. No child thinks totally rationally all the time, few adults do. We can not turn back the clock to the "good old days" and if we are truly honest few of us would really want to do that. I work with children every day who would have been left to die at birth or instutionalized in the "good old days" and I love every one of them. Society hid it's mistakes, swept them under the rug, didn't talk about it in 'polite company' back in the 'good old days'. I don't think things are as the should be now, I don't think every child has the care he or she deserves and needs, and I don't think that hatred, bigotry and prejudice are outgrown and outlawed just yet. It's not a perfect world-IT NEVER WAS. Remember that God islove and HE loves that sad, scared man- child- so should we. Said too much, now I'll shut up and go on feeling sorry for the less fortunate children of the world. betty

-- betty modin (betty_m9@yahoo.com), March 08, 2001.

Well, I posted that last one after having read a number of posts at the beginning. I hadn't gotten to Soni's and Julie's posts, and now I feel like my post was kind of stupid and whiney. Those were pretty incredible posts. I have given quite a bit of thought to the solution to this violence problem and haven't come up with anything really good yet. Maybe, after all, it is a problem that's impossible to solve, peacefully or otherwise.

There is a saying, though, that the more violent a society is, the more polite people are. So maybe if everyone were armed with equalizing weapons, people would be a bit more thoughtful, if just for their own self preservation. If Soni had been packing and everyone knew it, I bet they wouldn't have been teasing her. They might have killed her, but they wouldn't have teased her. I'm guessing Julie's friend's grandfather wouldn't have lasted long either, or he would have kept to himself. When I was in a class of 30-odd where I was the only white kid, I would either have been dead or left alone, but I wouldn't have been mugged at the bus stop.

In the end, I think we're always going to have a very few psychopathic predators among us, and we just have to deal with them as they come along.

It's the other killers that concern me more. The ones who start out with all their parts in the right places. The ones whose numbers are on the rise. The kids, who under the best circumstances suffer from hormonal and social adjustment stresses, and who also suffer from an inability to comprehend their own mortality or anyone else's.

Many of us had trials as children and learned to cope without resorting to killing people, no matter how richly they "deserved" it, no matter how sweet we imagined it would be to watch them die. In my own little world, I have to believe that the constant exposure to violence and death our children currently endure has made it significantly easier for kids who are not inherently psychopathic to overcome their natural revulsion to killing and take that irreversible step.

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), March 08, 2001.


Laura, in response to your question concerning the L word, (liberal), I think another word might clarify it's use in some of the above posts. The b word, (bigot)- a person of strong conviction or prejudice, especially in matters of religion, race, or politics, who is intolerant of those who differ with him or her.

-- jz (oz49us@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.

Soni,

Thanks for "baring your soul" like that - you have my deepest respect.

I too was tormented in school and your post hit a nerve with me (I was one of those fat kids - and it was at a time when obesity in children wasn't as prevalent as it is today so I was a minority in that aspect). The experiences I went through caused me to also have "distrust and general loathing for my fellow man" just like you. To call me misanthropic would be highly accurate.

The things I went through in school have contributed greatly to my desire to live far away from people and to keep to myself.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing what you went through. I know you don't know me but after reading your post I feel like we're kindred spirits. :-)

-- Jim Morris (prism@bevcomm.net), March 09, 2001.


John Hill, I like your thinking.armed teachers. armed students.Works for me.(works for the Israelis too)Then again I think abortion should be retroactive until age 18."Sorry Billy but you are just not working out"............................................................ John ,I'll answer your e-mail as soon as I can I am using my folks PC and don't have access to my email just now. Greg

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), March 09, 2001.

Joy, Julie, Craig, Soni, and others that do not believe in the death penalty, 20 years ago I did not feel it was morally correct to ever take another human beings life, no matter what they did. Is it because I am older now and have less patience with criminals, or is it because of the growing number of horrendous crimes now as opposed to 20 years ago? Yes, we had ax murders and child molesters then too, but not the number PER CAPITA that we have now. Rehab, for the most part, does not work, and I do not think it's fair to anyone in our society to allow these criminals to live out their lives at tax payers expense in relatively "plush" surroundings as punishment for their crimes. I feel that the "Hitler's of society" must be removed before their evil is spread even further, even in prison the evil is contagious.

I do not have all the answers to this delemma, Julie is right, whatever we do DO, it will be simply a stop gap measure, human nature can be incredibly cruel and torturous, every day I am shocked at the way we treat on another, and I try my best to intercede whenever I can to make life better for all of us, to make our life here on Earth gentler and kinder despite the "Hitlers" that reside with us.

Soni, my heart goes out to you, and I deeply respect your bravery in baring your soul to all here, but remember these wise words, "That what does not kill us, makes us stronger." This is not meant as apologyfor those that are responsible for your mistreatment, but words to soothe your troubled soul and lift your spririts, if only briefly.

This question, as Joy guessed correctly, was entirely rhetorical, when it gets right down to it, I could no more be responsible for directly killing another human being myself as I could butcher a cow or chicken, which those that know me know I could never do. This was posed to make people think, about their actions, and how these actions can DRASTICALLY effect and affect another person's life, sometimes with tragic consequences.

Please try harder in your everyday life to be more kind, understanding and empathetic to other peoples ideas, thoughts, and their basic right to share a small part of Mother Earth with you. This will help tremendously, but we will still a problem with "What to do with the Hitlers of society" forevermore.

Thanks for all your input and soulbaring, it is very enlightening and reflective of what society REALLY thinks and feels! To better understand life's problems, you must better understand people.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 09, 2001.


Annie,

I wasn't arguing against the death penalty, I was arguing against PUBLIC executions as a deterence. They just don't work. And they would never work in this country anyway, because they would be so arbitrarily applied. You would have to have all the judges and all the courts in lock-step throughout the country. Not likely.

P.S. to LBF - So you want to arm the teachers? Any student hell bent on mayhem and self-destruction would target the teachers first. Standard military tactics. And I guarentee that 99.9999% of teachers who might be armed, wouldn't have the fire discipline to handle the situation. A fire fight in a hallway with several hundred students running and screaming for cover? BANG! Oops! Sorry! You were in my line of fire. BANG! Oops! Sorry! That one ricocheted! Oh Crap! TIME OUT! I left my other ammo clip in my purse!

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (cmiller@ssd.com), March 09, 2001.


You know I too was teased unmercifully as a child, but my father had a pistol. I could have gotten his gun if I really wanted to, but such a thing never would have occurred to me. Children who stick by their beliefs and don't follow the crowd are targets. I could have been popular, if I had made the general sacrifices of values that it takes to be so. An example is when I was in Jr High and I was ordered by the popular crowd to abandon some friends or else be rejected. After being teased for years in grammer school, and finally changing schools and beginning to make friends, I told them off and walked over and sat with the unpopular ones. I said, "Friends like you, I don't need." I paid an extreme social price for this, but I never regretted it. Later on you had to drink, do drugs and party to be popular. Kids were always required to something other than themselves.

I disagree that homeschooling isn't a good way to deal with this problem. It always shocks me, how we cram kids into classes of their peers, and make their peers the most important people in their lives, and then when they turn 16 we say, "Don't give in to peer pressure". What a crock!!! I find the whole system to be divisive and hurtful. I know it was for me. The problem was, I just wouldn't knuckle under and give up my own personality, and take on the group mentality. As a result I paid the price, and so have many others. Contrast that to my homeschooled children, who get to be themselves 24-7. They don't have to leave their values at the door. They can stand for their beliefs and they do. When my little ones are faced with people who are doing wrong, they are likely to tell them so. It doesn't matter to them if someone doesn't like them for who they are. They just are. Their self esteem is not based on peers, their self esteem is based on those who love them, and God. Period. Homeschooled kids don't pick on other children by and large. I have observed this by being a member of several homeschool groups. If someone does try that,they are usually reported to a parent, who is always readily available to solve the problem. Homeschooled children also get along with people of all ages, and are respectful of adults. Homeschooled children tend to communicate on multiple levels and are just as able to speak frankly with and adult as they are a child. Homeschooled teens look adults in the eye when they speak with them, and are interested in what adults have to say to them. Homeschooled children always have a trusted adult to share their problems with before they become depressed and anxious enough to do things like kill themselves or others. When's the last time you heard of a homeschooled child taking his parents weapon and shooting up a homeschool meeting?

The thing here is, children were not ever meant to be herded like cattle into schools. They were meant to be raised by their parents. Parents today have abdicated their responsibility for their own convenience. It is a hundred year experiment that has obviously failed. Children do not do well when they spend so much time away from home. Our society is a reflection of that, it is easy to see. Most children of the past had guns readily at their disposal, and yet what is happening today did not happen then. If a parent is never around their child how are they supposed to know their child? How are they supposed to sense their moods? How are they supposed to really love someone they don't know? The answer is, they can't.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), March 09, 2001.


Soni's words hit home. I was always teased and had very few friends. I watched over the years and saw others who were treated the same way, but instead of shooting others, they shot themselves. I thought of suicide every day for 8 years, then finally dropped off to just a couple of times a week. I've known several people who killed themselves because of the hurt caused them by their peers and their families. As for executing the boy who did the shooting at Santana High, I really doubt he cares. I suspect strongly that he gave up caring if he lived or died quite a while back.

It is curious to me that so many of you who are ready and willing to execute this boy and have his parents punished severely as well are the same ones who are so quick to quote Jesus and "give God the glory". Perhaps you should study the teachings of Jesus a little more. Yes, I am familiar with the old testament teachings of "an eye for an eye". It was my understanding that the New Testament was to supercede the Old. Knee-jerk reactions such as the ones above are part of the reason that I no longer consider myself a Christian. If this is Christ-like, I want no part. By the way, don't bother with the flaming that always comes whenever anyone criticizes a Christian. I'll just delete it without reading it.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.


Personally I think this post demonstrates the overwhelming influence of public opinion flying in the face of logic, reason and the facts. It is a demonstrated fact that the death penalty does NOT deter crime (including first degree murder). Have you ever said to yourself - "I won't kill this person because I might get executed"? Of course not! You don't do it because it's wrong, or you couldn't live with yourself, or you have too much respect for life, law & order, God's creation, etc.

I won't even go into the people on death row wrongfully.

Our society has gotten so crowded and crazy that crazy things happen. Personally I think it has a lot to do with too many people crowded into too little space - human beings are not meant/evolved to live in these kinds of conditions. In an average city high school a student will encounter (see) thousands of people and may actually know a couple hundred of them. It's too depersonalizing. It enables us to judge others in abstract - she's too fat, stupid, doesn't dress right - he's too small, wimpy, doesn't comb his hair right. He picked on me and he doesn't even know me so I need to get even.

I don't have an answer except I know the death penalty (or lack of it) isn't going to change anything. My solution is to get out the city and make sure I've got breathing room.

-- Deborah (ActuaryMom@hotmail.com), March 09, 2001.


Green: I hope that your only exposure to Christians has not been on this forum or other guntoting,(oxymoron) hate filled Christians? like them. You will see that most of us that disagree are no longer posting because we got flamed for "disagreeing with the brethern" in public. You have the right idea of what Christ taught; we are to love even our enemy. In my opinion these attitudes of "self-righteous hatred and bigotry" are far more dangerous and capable of creating "monsters" than anything any so-called heathen could ever produce. I wish you peace, love and serenity and I chose Christ and all he taught. God's blessings to you and remember, people have been killing in the name of Christ for many, many years-but that does not make them right.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.

Wow, Diane, well-said!!!

And thanks jz for the above clarification. It was an eye-opener!

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@seedlaw.com), March 09, 2001.


Excellent posts Soni and Betty. How ironic that he did not aim at the kids who had been brutilizing him! I was the bully all through school, and from the bullies view point, I was so miserable at home, I just wanted everybody to be as unhappy as I was. My sister teases me that one day Jerry Springer or some such show is going to call me to be on "Bully day", and I do deserve it. Everyone deals with abuse in different ways, it made me mean, but it made me ultimately stronger. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 09, 2001.

I usually try to avoid commenting on this type of thread, but this is my turf. Most of you know I am a middle school science teacher.

I see the effects of teasing and tauting every day. We impose stiff penalties for it when we see it, but you know we can't see and hear everything. It is a seriously sick individual who gets his jollies by making others suffer. Yes, the parents of these sickos share responsibility in the deaths of those two California kids. Yes, the parents of the shooter share responsibilty for not making it perfectly clear to him that taking a life is wrong.

Lest you think I am a bleeding heart NEA liberal, I would have hung that shooter before the sun went down. He is unsalvageable, and thus a permanent burden on society. I also agree with many of you that teachers should be carrying guns. The cops often visit our school and no one thinks it unreasonable that they openly carry weapons onto our campus. Why does it seem so outrageous that educated, trained, intelligent teachers should be carrying the same weapons?

More guns; Less crime. It's a proven fact.

-- Jim (catchthesun@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.


Vickie, I think it takes a lot of courage to admit to having been one of the bullies! And I believe your explanation of why someone would be a bully is true in many, if not all, cases. It may be ironic that the children killed and injured were not the ones who had been brutalizing the perpetrator, but not that surprising I guess. He apparently turned to "bullying" behavior himself -- taking his rage out on those that he could.

And thank you, Betty, for posting the information about the development of the adolescent brain. I had heard of it before, but sort of forgot about it, and it certainly bears repeating!

-- Joy F (So.Central Wisconsin) (CatFlunky@excite.com), March 09, 2001.


Jay Baker, the check's in the mail. Catch you again next month.

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.

http://www.detroitnews.com/2001/schools/0103/07/a01-196600.htm

Yet another victim in the war against the 'weird.' Who seems to be the target? Anyone who doesn't 'fit in.'

Too fat, too skinny, braces, not wearing the 'in' clothes openly religious, in any religion, Not smart enough, too smart, new kid in town, the kids with the guts to be themselves. . . More often than not, the pain just turns inward. And then I read an editorial somewhere, some sorry SOB talking about how this is due to the new 'attitude of tolerance.' If there is so much 'tolerance' now, why are these kids being tormented to death?

-- Connie (Connie@lunehaven.com), March 10, 2001.


I understand with everyone herein. I can say I can feel the pecking order at work. I think alot of these kids feel abandoned by their piers. I also think it's time to abandon the HIERARCHY,s that exisit in our schools. I think a slow death would be more of a deterrent. I don't think teachers need guns in classrooms. Guns and classrooms don't mix no matter who's in control of the weapon. Too many other if's.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), March 10, 2001.

I am fully for the right to bear arms, and will support it with my dying breath, but arming all school teachers or administrators is not necessarily the solution. The principal at the high school here is a good man, a true and dedicated educator. However, a couple of years ago the school hired a new coach who looked remarkably like the principal's best friend who was killed in Vietnam. One day during school lunch, the principal freaked out. He grabbed the coach and threw him to the ground, then crawled under a parked car, all the while telling his "friend" to stay down or he would be shot. If the principal had had a gun that day, it is common opinion that he probably would have shot the other coaches in the group, because they were the ones he thought were the VC. School is stressful for everyone--not just the students. LIFE is stressful.

Life is also complicated. No one here knows any of the people who were involved in the shooting. It is really not for us to say what should be done. That will have to be decided by a jury in the area the shooting occurred.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), March 10, 2001.


I see a parallel between these school shootings and terrorism in the world at large. It is the response of those who perceive themselves to be abused in some way, not being heard, and powerless to stop it. Like in the mideast where one faction is so outgunned by the other side and they feel that their side is wronged with no hope in making things 'right', people resort to barbaric acts which often hurt the innocent. I'm certainly not condoning the injury of innocents, but you know if someone torments me or my family and for some reason I am powerless to stop them in like fashion, I think human nature will get me thinking along the lines of an 'evener'. Something which will stop the torment. Depending on how long the abuse has been going on an has rearranged my reality, who knows what means I might use to stop it. My point being, If we all stood up for the little guy or girl when we see the bullys of this world picking on them maybe we all could do our part to lessen the chances of this type of thing happening.

-- jz (oz49us@yahoo.com), March 10, 2001.

While I understand the sentiment expressed by those who're supporting public revenge and agree with those who're saying people need to be accountable for their own actions I also understand the frustration of the assailants.

High school was the worst four years of my life. I was one of those kids who was always watching his back. My dad was a pacifist but also a hunter so I was raised with guns.

For the first couple years in HS I'd just take it or run or hide from it. In my jr yr I'd had enuf and started lifting weights. Being fairly strong I got a rep as not the wimp everyone seemed to think I was. Then I publicly kicked the shit outa one of the bullies and protected some others who were getting the same treatment and the harassment stopped.

It never ocurred to me to go postal and start shooting but times have changed and not for the better as far as I'm concerned. Life has become too cheap on the media and public meaness is applauded by those who are the same side of any given issue. I don't condone the actions of the shooters but I think its true that we create our own monsters to some extent.

And I don't think there's an easy answer to it either because all of the causal reasons given above are valid and accurate from what I can tell. The bottom line is we've all gotta learn to get along, in spite of differences.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 10, 2001.


Green, your argument against arming teachers doesn't hold water. Using your logic, we should disarm all cops. No one is more unstable than those guys.

I don't think arming the teachers will correct the problem, but it will address some of the symptoms. It would save some lives. It would have saved lives at Columbine when the cop on duty turned tail and ran. Most teachers I know would have stood their ground against those scumbags.

More guns will save lives. They will save lives when we have more of them in schools, churches, hospitals, and all the other places that are frequented by cowards looking to massacre innocent people. Ever wonder why these sickos don't go to police stations to massacre people? Yeah, that's right. They know that cops carry guns. When teachers carry guns, the killing will stop.

-- Jim (catchthesun@yahoo.com), March 10, 2001.


I think we should stop raising our kids out there in the back yard, and go out there and plant a garden with them.

-- woodsbilly (coleenl@penn.com), March 10, 2001.

Wow. It really seems that the best solution to te whole thing is to just get rid of public schools and let people fend for themselves. I mean, half of the schools NEAR a large metropolitan area look like prisons. Kids have to go through metal detectors, submit to searches, give up all of their "rights" and we continue to call it an education as opposed to an indoctrination..? Just think how much money communinties would have to invest as parents see fit on education if there were no more school taxes?

Listen, it doesn't matter how many guns anyone has. If someone wants to kill a bunch of people in a school there are plenty of other ways to do so. Bleach and ammonia in the air filters, fire bombs, loading the assembly hall with exlosives, or gas, or whatever else someone can dream up. It just doesn't matter.

This whole thing is VERY, VERY sad. I hope no one interprted my previous comments as not thinking or feeling sincere saddness over ALL the school killings. I've considered the death penalty seriously and I do feel it is the only responsible course of action for society to take in flat out murder cases. Be they random or specific. Others disagree. Fine. Don't flash your headlights around gang initiation time. I have lived in enough neighborhoods with gangs to know that this is a truthful intitiation rite. I had a neighbor who was shot because he had on the wrong color of shirt. He lived, but it really isn't pleasant to be shot for literally no reason. I don't know if the perp was ever apprehended, but I do think it matters when people get killed or hurt.

Please take into consideration that all of this comes from a previously depressed fat child who first tried to kill herself at the ripe old age of nine. I know what teasing is, I know how it is to feel worthless, powerless, and beyond all caring. It doesn't excuse murder.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 10, 2001.


My mind boggles at the thought of what the international news organisations will report when the USA arms all school teachers.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 11, 2001.

Blaming everything that you do wrong on someone else,has happened in the last 20 years or so,as an excuse,to get away with anything you want to get away with ! I too am sick of that cop out,but how can we stop it? Executing people for executing people will not deter crime,but it will sure as hell prevent that one person from killing at random again ! Take away guns? Then you have to take away knives,then 2X4's,then bricks,then rocks,...What then? Cut off everybodys arms,because they beat someone to death? We live in a society that has lost all caring for others,get out of my way,I'm in a hurry,and the rules only apply to everybody else,not me ! If you get in trouble for spanking your kid outside in the yard,then take them in the house,but help them understand right from wrong,and let them know they will be punished for wrongdoings !!!! We may not be able to cure todays problems,but we can sure bring up the next generation to know right from wrong,and to expect to be punished if they break the rules! Work on that ! PPRAY! Don

-- Don Sloan (twosloans@texoma.net), March 11, 2001.

Well said Don.

-- Jim (catchthesun@yahoo.com), March 11, 2001.

Soni and other who bared their soul: Stand proud that you worked it out to a correct solution.

The media's sensatialism sure mixes the pot. The boy should be dealt the same fate he delivered and his tormentors should watch it being done. The parents should do community service.

A friend's younger brother was a real bully in school. I had seen that he watched power rangers and the other TeeVee tripe, and suggested his Mommy sit and watch every thing he watched, 2 days later he could no longer watch the box. By the end of the month he was a much better kid.

Being a nerd, and been teased though JH [nicked name Jail For Kids] and HS, it sucked. Yes, Dad had a .22 in the closet, I NEVER EVER thought of using it. But then we didn't have video games and continual violence piped into our minds. Yes, we had Saturday nite wrestling - but you knew it was a stage show and it was on every few months.

I did get 'even' with my tormenetors one by one, some were expelled for various odd reasons. The cruelest ones, had problems with gravity. Am I proud of that, no, but the crime fit the punishment - as the teachers would do nothing about it. And they stopped being bullies - because I'd reminded them that I'd return with more pain.

As far as the death penalty goes, it has not been effective because it takes to long to for the execution. I do agree that it should be the least sadistic method. But it should be very propmtly.

Guns in school? Considering a discussion with my newphew, who just graduated, said how easy it is for kids to get them. that seems to be the only option. As mentioned before: it works in Isreal, and oddly it works at the police stations, too.

Jon in NZ, considering how much the crime rate has risen in your neck of the pond, you should be screaming at your poly-tick-ers to have a cop on every street corner armed with a bazooka to protect y'all from those thugs.

Did you know that when you call 911 [help in the USA] the police are not REQUIRED to respond? And the average response time is more than 5 minutes. Five minutes is a long time to be hiding from the bad people.

-- (perry@ofuzzy1.com), March 12, 2001.


Thank you Soni and others who also suffered through school. I hadn't realized that in one way my childhood was "normal" - I was teased and laughed at because I just didn't fit in. I had revenge fantisies for years, tho I never acted on them. I still have problems (at 47!) socially. I have read advice columns that say "Get over it" but it't hard to just forget 12 years of abuse. I wonder how many of us have chosen to homeschool because of our experience? I would never want my children to go through what I did. When I read about the latest HS killer, I thought, "There but for the grace of God go I". The day before the killing our newspapter had an article that teasing was normal and helps children be stronger! A few months ago a boy just down the road from us killed his entire family. He had been teased a lot, but there were family problems as well. He is only 14. I don't have any answers, but I think these young people are sick and we should at least try to cure them, not just kill them. As a Christian, I just don't see that as doing anybody any good.

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), March 12, 2001.

I think this attitude is harsh. What this boy did is disgusting, but he is also a boy--a very disturbed boy. We need to question what is going wrong in society where kids are unable to cope with problems and are resorting to violence. My hunch is that children are exposed to too much violence, and that parents aren't stable or involved enough in their childrens' lives. The school are also inept--they are largely institutions that perform substandard babysitting duties. It is easy for an adolescent to feel lost at school.

Teasing has been an age-old problem--it is *not* acceptable for children to bully and tease, nor is it healthy to assume that children need to "deal with it." Many folks grow up unhappy due to troubled childhoods (including being bullied) and instead of resorting to external violence, they turn that violence onto themselves by engaging in self-abusive behaviors such as alcoholism, promiscuity, drug abuse, choosing bad partners, or anything that damages the person's soul (is this what we consider to be dealing with it?) Now it seems children are so angry that they turn that anger outwards. We need to wonder why this is happening.

It is easy to react to this with violent ideas. Will public hangings solve the problem? That only addresses a symptom. I'm becoming more and more convinced that I need to throw out the TV and homeschool my children. If I cannot change society I sure can work to change my situation so that my children are safe and protected.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), March 12, 2001.


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