My wife and I rented "The Patriot", starring Mel Gibson. She was totally blown away by the movie, which we watched without any children around. (I had been warned it would be especially bloody, which was correct. It was.) Anyhow, Patti asked me when it was over, "could our kids do that?" (referring to the part where the dad gave the two younger boys the muskets to use). Sure, I replied. Our EIGHT year old could pick off a coffee can at sixty or eighty yards, with the 22. Her point was that most kids today are never trained in simple skills like how to shoot a racoon in the henhouse. Or take to arms in defense of their country. Of course, most times the media speaks about kids and firearms, they are referring to such and such a kid using a medium caliber semi-automatic pistol to destroy a classmate. NOT a realistic scenario, in terms of what most of America owns and shoots. Of course, the media is most notable for their UN-realistic coverage of our nation's news. The media never mentions facts like: skateboarders have FAR more fatalities than hunters, or bicyclists have FAR more fatalities, or surfers, or many other sports, actually. The reason for hunting's low numbers is simple, really... What other sport do you know of where you have to be ten years old, have to have a parent's support and guidance, have to attend and pass a three day, state supervised, safety course, and then be parentally supervised (physically there beside them to help) until they turn 15 or 16. Certainly not ICE HOCKEY, or HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL!!! Get real, folks. We've been sold a crock of stuff, concerning how we should raise our children safely. I thank God for homeschool, and a willing partner, here, that makes it all gel together and work. Our school has buses WITH seat belts, NO drugs or alcohol, and people either get along (and clean their room) or they don't eat. The words of Ted, the son of Ted are ended.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001

Answers

Response to Could our children do that?

I recently watched the Patriot and I really enjoyed it. Even though it was a bit gorey it was an excellent movie. As to your question....my son (12) yes...my daugter (9)no. My son has an interest in hunting so I have taught him how to safely use a firearm (wish I could interest him in learning to be quiet in the woods so he might actually get a shot at something:o). My daughter shows no interest as of yet so I will wait till she is a bit older before I teach her how to use a gun. I started thinking about myself and my brother as children..if we could have used a gun to defend ourselves and our family. Absolutely! My Dad started teaching us to use a gun when I was about 9....he taught safety first and foremost. I think most reasonable adults that own guns teach their children safety.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), February 02, 2001.

Response to Could our children do that?

I loved the Patriot as did my kids, 16, 18 and 22. Yes my children have the skills in which to have done the killing in the movie. But I don't see how being homeschooled or public schooled really has alot to do with this. Sometimes I think parents who homeschool think that us public school folks, pack our kids to school, having never taught them all the same things they have taught theirs. Learning is a way of life. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 02, 2001.

Response to Could our children do that?

Vicki, I stand corrected. There are certainly many caring parents that spend time with their children teaching them basic (and advanced) skills that life will require of them. In some cases, though, the parents are totally oblivious to the goings on in school, or the caliber of curriculum being shoved down their little one's noggin. In some cases, parents are to be commended for even UNdoing the damage that certain public schools inflict. In New Jersey, there are many fine schools, as I'm sure there are in Texas, or perhaps Colorado. But in Colorado, they have decided that if a school has a mass murder take place, then it is no longer such a fine school. Homeschool parents have one basic goal: send their children to a fine school. If I were to make any other point about homeschooling, it might be something to the effect that "after I've paid my $3000 in property taxes (1/2 of which goes to the school system that we don't attend), we pay for all our own research, curriculum, materials, and support a constant parade of field trips, museums (PLURAL), ski- trips, bowling, skating, planetareums, mock-trials, basketball league games, reading parties, grammar parties, ETC, ETC, Dad still has to come home and grade and review, teach some more, and still be the fun kind of person that everybody wants to be around. Do not read the word EASY into this system. Or CHEAP, either. But hey, if it was easy and cheap, wouldn't everyone be doing it???

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001.

Response to Could our children do that?

We had a 10 yr old in our area about 20 years ago that was home alone when someone broke in. The local police recieved the call of the breakin, and asked would they please hurry as this young boy had a shotgun pointed at his head. When asked, the boy told the officers that he didn't want to risk the crook getting the drop on him while he called the police so he had the crook do the dialing and talking.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001.

Response to Could our children do that?

I have never seen the movie, but would like to comment further on the gun issue. My two nephews (who lived with me for 3 1/2 years) were gun-crazy from birth! Anything they picked up became a weapon. Failing an inanimate object they used their index fingers to point at an imagined target. When they were 6 and 9 yo I started taking them camping at a state owned campground, complete with firing range. Both boys completed the required safety course and spent many happy hours plinking away with a variety of handguns, rifles, and shotguns under the supervision of several other adult members of our outdoor group, all of whom were certified safety officers. After a period of this activity, I noticed that their unbridled enthusiasm for anything resembling a firearm had begun to wane, replaced with a healthy, and informed, respect for weapons and an awareness of the responsibility that accompanies gun ownership and use. Two years later I gave them each a pellet/bb gun for xmas. The guns are stored away with trigger locks to which I hold the keys. The boys are allowed to use the guns whenever they want, but only with adult supervision. The guns are not toys and are not treated as such. I think this is one of the best things I have done for the boys. They handle guns with confidence, as well as intelligence. But, the adults around them remember that they are still kids, and supervise them accordingly. I know this is a controversial subject, but I believe the best approach is education, allowing the kids to learn enough about the subject to make informed, intelligent decisions for themselves as they mature. (This is REALLY controversial, but I feel the same about things like religion, sex education, drugs, and alcohol). Ignorance is not always bliss.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), February 02, 2001.

Response to Could our children do that?

Action Dude, I want to agree with nearly everything you said about homeschooling except for the cost. For us it is much cheaper to homeschool than to send them to public school. Well as long as you don't count the school taxes that I HAVE to pay even though it isn't educating my kids. During the brief time that my kids went to public schools I had to buy school clothes, specific school supplies, buy their lunch, $5-10 per week for various stuff. Seems like they always were coming home with a note needing money for something or they had a new fund raiser going(I never let my children participate in fund raisers....I paid plenty of taxes for their education). Not to mention what seemed like constant trips up to the school for one thing or another(gas is expensive).

My kids can do school in their work clothes or pj's. We only buy nice clothes for church. Their school supplies usually run about $50 a piece for a total of $100 per year. Ah if only our government could achieve that! This year I knew I wasn't going to be able to give them quite as much one on one as normal(we moved and I'm setting up a new farm) so I splurged and spent $200 on a computer program....that still comes out to $100 per kid. Sorry to get so far off topic but I wanted folks that might be thinking of homeschooling to realise it isn't expensive...you actually save money!

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), February 02, 2001.

On the same line of thinking, I have an old "Suzy Homemaker" (as my mother calls it) home economics book from the early 40's, intended for high-school and even jr. high scholl girls which blew me away when I read it. Not only were the girls being taught the same type of home budgeting stuff and cooking that they are taught today, but exceedingly complex directions for making clothes - no simply jumper shorts sets, but Hong Kong seam finishes and such (a very complicated technique to look good - as well as welt pockets, also considered not for beginners these days.). Also included is a section of furnishing your room, up to and including finding and refinishing a vanity and making your own curtains and matching closet shelf covers!

These projects today would hardly be taken on by fuuly grown women, let alone 13 year olds, who these days are often allowed to give the impression that they cna barely climb into the SUV that ferries themto the mall after school. I love this book, but feel somewhat undeserving (even though I can do most of the stuff it implies I should) just reading about what large and important tasks young ladies were supposed to shoulder (making family meals would baffle most of today's youth if there were no "meal in a box" foods in the pantry.) I take my hat off to those who grew up then and did what they did.

It was, however, just too much for me to be reading about how I should "put on a new and freshly pressed apron of a becoming print" so that my father would suddenly notice how beautiful and useful I was, and not (appearently) the slovenly and worhtless twit I would have been considered in an old, stained-up version! LOL!!!

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), February 02, 2001.

I agree with you about teaching kids the proper and safe way to handle guns. My daughter, age 15, is a nationaly ranked marksman (woman), and there has never been even a hint of trouble with all the shooting that she has done. The guns are in the gun case, and are NEVER used for anything but shooting or hunting. Both my girls know the rules, and they don't break them. When their cousen was over and started to try to get into the gun case, both the girls yelled at him. he has never tried to touch them again. My younger daughter knows how to shoot and handle a gun, even though she is not interested in target shooting or hunting.

-- Steve (collins@cpinternet.com), February 02, 2001.

Elizabeth, you got that right! We have to constantly remember that they are ONLY CHILDREN, when we are doing all that close supervision. We are constantly reminding them, and their friends to KEEP THE MUZZLE POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION. And not because they are doing it wrong, either. Just because they need to hear it over and over again. The familiarity with the things, also makes the boys less enamoured with 'em. They still enjoy a trip to the range to shoot clays. It's that brotherly competition thing. But the attraction or fascination it used to hold over them always fades by the time it's time to clean 'em afterwards. HA HA.

-- action dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

"I know this is a controversial subject, but I believe the best approach is education, allowing the kids to learn enough about the subject to make informed, intelligent decisions for themselves as they mature. (This is REALLY controversial, but I feel the same about things like religion, sex education, drugs, and alcohol). Ignorance is not always bliss." Amen, Elizabeth!

Daddy taught me and my siblings from an early age what guns were for. We learned how to carry them properly, how to shoot and what/when to shoot. My father educating us took all the mystery out of them ~ we knew what they would do. We were all crack shots and NEVER touched those guns unless Daddy knew about it, despite the fact that they were always kept fully loaded in an unlocked closet of my parent's room. I think the best lesson he taught us was that it's not like in the cartoons ~ when you shoot something, it doesn't shake it off and jump back up alive. One of my most vivid memories is of when Daddy shot an armadillo that kept digging up our yard. He made sure us kids ALL got a good look at it as it laid on the ground, writhing in pain, insides eviscerating, as he killed it. "See? THAT'S what guns will do to YOU if you're not careful."

I think that all of us, Mom included, had the skills to do what those boys in the movie did. I am going to make sure that my children could do the same.

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), February 04, 2001.

Wingnut- A friend related this story about teaching his young (gun crazy- are they all?) son about guns: My friend filled a 5 gallon bucket with red Kool aid, then covered the bucket. He let his 6 year old blast it with a 20 gauge shotgun, which left it riddled with holes, and kool aid all over the place. Well, young son thought that was great, till he asked to do it again. His dad told him to go fill the bucket up again so that could "kill" it again. As the boy struggled to restore the target to it's original condition, Dad asked him to imagine what he would do if the bucket had been a human being, or even an animal, and the kool aid had been blood. This was a pretty graphic illustration to the boy that the damage done by a firearm is REAL, and that you can't just put someone back together after they have been shot. I met my friend's son last year, when he was 10, and he had a vivid memory of the incident and of the impression it made on him at the time.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), February 04, 2001.

My wife is as good a rifle shot as I am, and nearly as good with a bow and a hand gun. She can even throw a knife and an axe. She claims it comes from having older brothers. I guess teaching 8th grade must make her tough.

As far as our kids being able to react to dangerous situations. I have 2 daughters from my first marriage ages 32, and 27. I think if anybody tried to harm the children of either of these girls, they would wish they had Mel Gibson after them instead. And if they lived through that, they would still have the men in the family to be concerned about.

-- Neal Van Milligen (cavm@aol.com), February 04, 2001.

Jay Blair, That's amazing about the little kid with the burglar. There are laws, though, that should have prevented him ever getting his hands on that weapon, (which enabled him to thwart the crime). I wonder what repercussions his parents met with, after the bad guy was whisked off to jail??? Hmmm.

-- action dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 04, 2001.

Neil, Ha ha, I'll betcha, for sure...

-- action dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 04, 2001.

Never saw the movie, yet I have read near everything Jefferson ever wrote. I am a hunter and a public school teacher{quite a combination huh} I know my nine year old son is a wicked good shot and I hope he never has to use that ability on any bipedal critter in his life. Having served in the infantry I understand that this matter is no game. there is no glory in death and killing. My son has a pellet gun that is his. I trust his judgement with it. He has also fired weapons up to 30 cal.and, as i have stated, he is a fine shot. there are lots of issues floating around in this stream of letters. I just wanted to get my 2 cents in. Education begins with the realization that there are lots of people in this world, and with those people come lots of opinions. An educated{intelligent?} person sees this and decides that he doesn't have to force his particular views and beliefs on those around him. so say's len son of len

-- me (cnllewis@email.com), February 04, 2001.

action dude, Those laws were not in existance in many parts of the country at that time. Then a fifteen year old could legally own a shotgun in many areas. If you recall gun control started in urban areas first. Rural areas had a vastly different view on firearms then. Something that I have noticed about youths and violence is that it became more of an issue in rural areas after telivision and family standards started falling and music turned violent. "Country" values began to be lost with kids longing for "city style". At the time we heard of the child I mentioned, the youth here still listened to the likes of Hank Jr. and Barbara Mandrell. Rock was considered Skynnyrd and Charlie Daniels. Most kids in our area now arn't in that catagory. Times change and not always for the better. Different values prevailed then, people overall were more trustable. Then many didn't even lock their doors in this area.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), February 05, 2001.

I agree with you action dude. Have you seen the reports on the new scooters? Not only are they way over priced but the kids are not being told and taught how to be safe with them. Parents just spent hundreds of dollars on them and turn the kids loose n the streets and forget about them. Parents have a huge responsibility but sad to say most parents don't want to take the time to raise those responsibilities. Sad but true. I'm glad we are in an area where we can teach our kids what we feel are better values.

-- michelle (tsjheath@ainop.com), February 06, 2001.

I don't watch many movies (about 4 in the last 2 years) but this one had a profound effect on me. I also found myself wondering why things are so different today and why are kids are so irresponsible and immature. I purchased an audio tape recently entitled "Bringing Your Children To Early Maturity" from www.familyministries.com. It blew me away! Only in modern Western society are teenagers considered youth. Prior to 200 years ago most 14 year olds were getting started in their careers and some of them were married. Now, I am not suggesting we marry our 14 year olds off - but we should be questioning why these young people were so responsible and our kids are not. We have been conditioned by Freud and others that we can't expect anything from our teens (I hate that word!) but rebellion and stupidity. Guess what folks? Teen rebellion is a new phenomena not present in any culture or in any time in history except the present. Recently for a homeschool project we read the diary of Sally Wister a youth during the revolutionary war. Folks, I could hardly believe this was written by what we would call today a "preteen". She was a responsible and intelligent young lady who had excellent command of the English language. I compared this with the average vocabulary of today's youth. How depressing! The problem is that most parents are immature. I am not trying to sound condescending but this is fact. I have dealt with this immaturity in my own life. When I got married I was 22 and I couldn't cook, clean, garden, or do much of anything that required that I spend less time shopping at the mall or watching TV. There is a price to pay for raising your children in the luxury of The Great Resort (America today). Most kids today think they exist to be served by society and pursue entertainment. Ugh! I shudder to think of what will happen if we have another war which would require the character qualities of endurance, self-sacrifice, etc.. I do not see these character qualities in the bell bottomed, pot smokin, porn toting flunkies that we have come to call "normal" teens of today. The solution lies with each one of us making the changes necessary to see that our children become truly responsible productive members of society. Hats off to all you homesteaders and responsible folks who teach your children real values and how to sweat!

-- Tiffani Cappello (cappello@alltel.net), February 06, 2001.

Tiffany, you are so right. I am constantly amazed at what kids can not do. My farming partner teaches Ag at the local county high school. I went in there one day when he was teaching a class of freshmen boys how to read a tape measure. When I laughed at such an elementary subject he said I should have been there yesterday when he spent 45 minutes trying to get them to drive a 10 penny nail in a pine board. At the end of the session only one boy had been able to drive the nail in and he could not repeat it.

He blames parents who don't take the time to do jobs with the kid's help. They would rather give junior $20 to go to the mall than to make him help with a tune up or a barn building or whatever. Sure it takes 2-3 times as long to do it with the kid helping but teaching those skills is part of our job.

On the other hand, they say even nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

-- Neal Van Milligen (cavm@aol.com), February 06, 2001.

Neal & Tiffani- 2 funny little kid stories you might both appreciate- 1. When my oldest nephew was little he and I were best pals and hung around together all the time (ok, now everyone knows I don't have a LIFE!). He went everywhere with me and he used to love to "help" with all of my projects. (I also bought most of his clothes and other necessities as his parents had very little money). His other aunt, Alison, didn't have a lot of time to spend with him, but felt left out, so she used to buy him a lot of expensive toys. When he was 4, a toy ad came on tv- he turned to look at me and asked "Do you think Auntie Alison would buy me that?" My feelings were a little hurt that he hadn't thought of me first, so I said "Why Alison?". Aaron's response was that she always buys him toys. So I said "what about me? what do I do?" Well, he's a very serious kid, so he thought about it for a minute, then looked at me again and said-" You do things with me". I was pretty amazed that such a young kid was able to make, and articulate, such a distinction, and also that he placed a high value on the time we spent together. The point he was making was that even though he really wanted the toy, time spent with me was just as important to him. 2. About kids, work, and self-esteem: Both of my nephews got pretty spoiled after their mother died- everyone felt so sorry for them that they showered the kids with gifts and toys. They got to a point where they began to expect gifts all the time, and whenever we were out in the car they constantly asked- "Auntie, do we have any money for (fill in the blank!)". Well, I didn't like their being so spoiled, plus I had quit my job to stay home and care for them so money was already a concern- eventually I declared a moratorium on toy purchases altogether. For my nephew's 9th bday I gave him a beehive. Then his little brother got one. When we started to extract honey from the hives, I told the kids that they could give away as much as they wanted and could sell the rest. Those kids were so proud of themselves when xmas rolled around and they were able to give jars of honey from their own hives, that they had helped extract and bottle, as gifts. No amount of money in the world could have generated as much satisfaction. After the holidays they began to sell their surplus, and it wasn't long before, instead of asking for $5 to buy things, they would ask for a jar of honey to sell. When the older boy was 10, he told me that the beehive was the best present he had ever received, because with the proceeds from his honey sales, he can buy his own toys and "stuff" for himself. And I'm happy because the kids have finally stopped "$5-ing" me to death! But more importantly, they are developing a work ethic of their own, learning the value of money and exercising judgement about spending it, and their self esteem has sky-rocketed. They are learning that they do not have to be dependent upon others to provide for all of their wants and needs- that they are capable of providing for themselves. They are also learning the joy of giving to others- in addition to the many jars of honey they have given as gifts, we donated $300 of our "honey money" to Heifer Project International last year, which the boys designated for the purchase of 30 beehives. So, they are also learning that their efforts can be of benefit to the lives of others less fortunate than themselves, and I think that's a pretty strong lesson for them.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), February 06, 2001.

Well, a number of good people have hit the nail in the proper part of it's anatomy! Guns are a positive factor, but it is the responsibility of the elders to conduct proper training. My kids are all well versed in gun handling, gun safety, and marksmanship. Some like to hunt, some like competitive shooting, some like to plink, and some are not all that interested. But they all know gun safety, as do THEIR children! Thank God we now have a President who places the Constitution ahead of dalliances! GL!

-- Brad (homefixer@SacoRiver.net), February 08, 2001.