Taxes are voluntary

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I first learned about this site here, but with tax season upon us, I figured I would mention it. http://www.paynoincometax.com

I recently purchased some of Irwin's material. So far, the biggest thing that has struck me is that even official IRS correspondence takes great pains to document income tax as voluntary. They use double-speak to make it appear compulsory -- but the term "voluntary compliance" is prevalent in their documents. They never use the term "compulsory compliance". When referring to legislated taxes on Alcohol and Tobacco (witness BATF), the term "compulsory" is everywhere.

My question is this: if you were in charge of relating material about a mandatory tax, would you pepper your composition with the word "voluntary"? Wouldn't a mandated authority take great pains to highlight a word like "compulsory"? I guess the IRS is not such an authority -- they must deliberately stay away from terms which hint at compulsory because income tax is unconstitutional.

Look at the site and make up your own mind -- it could mean a fair chunk of change for you...

Regards Mike O

-- Michael Olson (olsonmr@yahoo.com), February 01, 2001

Answers

Have a friend that for years said taxes were voluntary and you didn't have to pay. So he didn't, even insisted that all taxes if legal had to be paid in gold. Even went to pay his property taxes in gold coins, he had the TV people there to show them turn him down. They just accepted the gold exchanged the gold for cash at a large bullion dealer and billed him for the difference. He lost a ton on that idea. Well now he has just lost his case. Lost his home every thing, his wife has lost most of her property even though she divorced him several years ago, and started paying her taxes, she did not pay while married to him. They lost every thing they worked for, for the past 50 years and now at too old to start over are pennie less. You have to pay taxes or pay the results of listening to some idiot that thinks he has a new idea and is a slick talker. No one likes to pay taxes but there is no choice. How about a plan to cut out waste of tax money that we can do.

-- David (bluewaterfarm@mindspring.com), February 01, 2001.

I've heard about the thing where you are supposed to pay in gold. I've also heard about income tax being illegal. Well that may all be true but take it from someone who has seen the IRS in action...guns drawn ..the works, don't try it unless you have nothing to loose! My ex's old boss didn't pay taxes...quite a bit of taxes..for several years. IRS came in with guns...detained everyone...seized everything and locked that place down totally in under 10 mins. If only the rest of the government could be that efficient...lol. Kind of funny this thread came up today. I spent most of the afternoon on hold with the IRS listening to some really dull classical music. I didn't file taxes for 1999...figured if I didn't make anything I didn't owe anything. Well I forgot about a really small disbursement from an annuity after my grandmother passed away. They sure didn't forget!

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), February 01, 2001.

Income taxes voluntary? The jail time which comes with not paying them isn't. Other taxes? Try not paying your property taxes. At the checkout tell the cashier since taxes are voluntary you don't want them to be included in your bill. Try sending in your phone bill minus the taxes included in it.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 02, 2001.

Nice Thought! Did a quick search and found this site refuting the above- http://www.taxprophet.com/hot/june98.html I thought this section was particularly appropriate- "Many such pages populate the Web, but the leading guru of this group must be Irwin Schiff. Visit his website at http://www.ischiff.com/ and you might be convinced that you don’t have to pay income taxes. Schiff fails to mention that he is a criminally-convicted tax evader and has lost -- big time -- in every court that has heard his meritless theories." He is the same guy on http://www.paynoincometax.com Good luck! Jack

-- jack (atl.jack@mailexcite.com), February 02, 2001.

Nope Ken, you're wrong. You can't be thrown in jail for not paying your taxes. But they can take everything you own, but you can't be put in jail for not paying taxes or for any other debt. Now, you can be put in jail for not filing your taxes or for falsafying them, but not for not paying them.

-- Joe (jcole@apha.com), February 02, 2001.


Pay the extortionists and they will continue to extort. Seek the trut and you will find it buried under piles of misinformation and scam artists.

-- Robin (robinhood@taxmenot.com), February 02, 2001.

First, I was talking about income tax -- not all taxes.

Second, the courts and judges are comspirators up to their gills in this stuff -- it does not surprise me that Schiff is a "convicted" tax evader.

Third, in my reading last night, the only way that you can get the IRS off your back is to claim protection from the 4th and 5th amendments. Any IRS audit or request for financial records is an illegal search because they are on a fishing expedition. The 5th amendment (usually used to avoid "self-incrimination") exists to say that you cannot be forced to bear witness to your own affairs -- legal or illegal.

The IRS Handbook for Special Agents specifically states that these rights are implicitly waived unless you invoke them. If you do not know, you're hosed and they continue to extort.

I am bringing this up becasue it is something I am learning about. There may be others who want to learn about it to. I, for one, am through believing something just because I never bothered to investigate it.

Has the government enslaved us? How much money do you have left over after the bare necessities? Even slaves since ancient times have been provided the bare necessities. Why do corporations pay taxes on net profits when an individual payes on his gross income? Do we not have expenses incurred because of the job that brings in the wages in the first place?

-- Michael Olson (olsonmr@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001.


As for the "Tax Prophet", do you think he has a vested interest in promoting tax as compulsory or refuting proponents of voluntary income tax? Has he not most likely built his entire law career around the belief that we are legislated to pay income tax. What would happen to him if everyone acts upon taxes being voluntary?

Another thing that I have been learning lately is that anybody has a vested interest in their opinion, stance, or point of view and, thus , a conflict of interest with the truth -- if not monetarily, or for preservation of power, or for preservation of "their life" as they have come to know it, then even for smaller stakes like increased self-esteem or the need to be listened to. However, (trying to be fair) just because they have a conflict of interest with the truth does not mean it is not truth -- even a squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

The only way for anyone to get to the truth is to put ideas to the test; coming to your own conclusion according to your own situation.

-- Michael Olson (olsonmr@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001.


Mike, I am with 100%. Please check into ths site. www.ottoskinner.com Of all of the tax websites out there this is the only guy with NO lawsuits against him. I've studied this whole thing pretty intesely and I recently bought Skinner's books. It's like going back to college, but here's a question for all the folks who love to pay illegal taxes just to keep the paltry freedoms we have.....Is the income tax a direct tax, an excise tax, a duty, or an impost? These are the only taxes provided for by the Constitution. It is clearly a violation of the Constituion to implememnt a capitation tax. It's bogus. And believe me, I have paid and am studying this out thouroughly because I rather cherish the little bit of freedom I still have and am claustrophobic and asocial to boot, so I wouldn't fare well in a prison.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), February 02, 2001.

Michael, I agree with you 100%. I was just reminding Ken about the Constitution saying we can't be imprisoned for our debts. But sure, the stinking IRS dosen't pay too much attention to the constitution. From what I've heard and read, you're guilty until proven innocent when it comes to dealing with the IRS. I'm a card-carrying Libertarian and I suspect you know what we think of the IRS. If not, you might like checking into the party web site.

-- Joe (jcole@apha.com), February 02, 2001.


Taxes are voluntary, jail time is not.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), February 02, 2001.

You folks who want to lose your farms, and anything else IRS wants, go right ahead. But keep in mind that speed limits rely on "voluntary compliance" too.

I'm personally in favor elimination of income tax and replacing it with a fixed rate sales tax. Less loopholes for corporations, I'm thinking.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), February 02, 2001.


New Zealand has a 12.5% tax on all goods and services, this is payable only by the final consumer. There was a lot of objections when it was introduced some years ago and although our economy is not what one would call robust I am sure it would be worse without GST. Australia has introduced GST recently but they did it differently, they have exemptions and maybe different rates. Their approach, in my opinion, lost many of the advantages of GST one of which is uniformity.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 03, 2001.

I know somebody that doesn't pay taxes. They're working child doesn't have a ss#. They have all the forms to avoid such things. About 7 years ago I heard a guy on the radio WLW(I think) from Cincy talk about the subject. He said make sure you have a trust fund for retirement.

Somebody close to hear was raided for not paying taxes.

Somebody in Montana that I met, lost everything.

-- Cindy (SE In) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.


Michael,

Individuals pay taxes on gross income and then the deductables come into play. Right now, our standard dedutions rose from 6900 to 7200. (married, no kids) That's allot. Our itemized receipts, including mortage interest, medical, tools, church, uniforms, car taxes, prop. taxes, etc., everything dedectable for us, dosen't even come close to the standard deductable. We don't pay taxes on gross income, if you don't itemize, you have a standard deduction.

Gross and net in wholesale or retail is entirely different cuz you must purchase something to sell it. Labor is pure income.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@hotmail.com), February 03, 2001.



cindy in ky I beg to difer on your last statment (labour is pure income) man needs food to labour

-- nick (raymondetdesrosier@smpatico.ca), February 05, 2001.

Man needs lots more than food to labor -- food, shelter, security, transportation, fuel and probably many others I have not spent time thinking about.

The gov't gets much more income from a "metropolitan" economy than it would get from a rural economy. Does the gov't consider the cost to a taxpayer of living in a city where high wages are met with high home costs, rent costs, land costs, food costs, commuting costs, etc...

Labor is surely not "pure income".

-- Michael Olson (olsonmr@yahoo.com), February 07, 2001.


I love to see a consumer based tax. After all as homesteaders that try to be as self-reliant and responsible as we can be, I feel most of us would come out on the best end of that stick. At least we would be in some control of the amount we paid. The average Joe Consumer, and we all know lots of them, would pay the majority of the taxes. Sounds good to me.

-- jean (dandrea@duo-county.comm), February 08, 2001.

Unfortunately, the avereage member of the working poor, living from paycheck to paycheck would be the one that suffers most in this scenario. Much better to have one flat tax rate which doesn't kick in until some, to be determined, income level is reached. If I didn't make over $15,000, for example, I wouldn't pay any fed. tax.

-- ray s (mmoetc@yahoo.com), February 08, 2001.

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