We have heard coyotes at night but in the distance but this week my husband heard a group in the evening right behind the cabin in the horse pasture. The next morning, I saw a pair in the hayfield. I'm sure that they are a breeding pair. My youngest has saw one while doing morning chores. I have chickens that free range in the summer, Fiona the very pregnant Nubian, several cats, and 4 dogs. I'm worried that we are going to have coyote problem.

What do you do when you see predatory wildlife hanging around your farm? I verified with NYS DEC that I can shoot them. Should I wait until they do something, or do a preemptive strike? They have been nosing around the barn near where the chickens are but they can't get inside.

What to do?

Stacy Rohan in Windsor, NY

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), January 28, 2001

Answers

Shoot 'em.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), January 28, 2001.

This is the one animal that I let other people hunt on are land .There is a good chance they will go after your chickens if they go that close .How big are the dogs ?

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), January 28, 2001.

Shoot them as soon as possible or you won't have any chickens, cats or kid goats.

-- Hendo (redgate@echoweb.net), January 28, 2001.

I can not agree with shooting them, sorry, they to need to live somewhere. Is your farm alittle to inviting to them? are you leaving animals/feed/waste in the open? I would say lock up the animals at night in a secure building and send out your dog{if you have one}or borrow one from a friend. Make your farm not a nice place to be. play music at night ,fire a gun in the air what ever it takes to get them to leave and then keep it up for a few more days.I lost alot of chickens because i was careless this fall,we ended up trapping and releasing 9 fox.I now do not allow the birds to stay out and if i see or hear fox the GP is out in the hen house/yard w/ them.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), January 28, 2001.

This raises another great question. Aren't there breeds of dogs that instinctively protect your farm animals? What breeds are they? What sort of protecting might they do?

-- Paul Wheaton (paul@javaranch.com), January 28, 2001.

We see coyotes almost daily out here!If they get too close to the house we take a shot at them just to scare them away.We always know when they're around because our dogs will start growling instead of barking like they normally would.

-- nobrabit (conlane@prodigy.net), January 28, 2001.

If they attack some of your animals, then I'd say shoot them. All of our stock goes in at nignt except a big german shepard. When he hears something he barks and when the threat is over he goes back to sleep. He is a very big dog, and would be able to handle his own, at least long enough for us to get outside and help. He runs free, so he could escape if need be. Also, if you tied your dog up, it doesn't take long for the racoons and coyotes to figure this out and they'll come in closer. I have no neighbor's so I don't worry about him wondering. If he doesn't smell your neighbors trash, they'll usually stay home. (he's been nuetered) Dogs are driven on smell and sex.

Coyotes, are mother natures way of helping keep varmits in check.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), January 28, 2001.

My vote is don't shoot them. I'd try all the above suggestions to drive them away. If they actually do stay and hurt one of your nimals, then shooting can be justified. I swear, this "shoot 'em on sight" mentality is one thing I hate about this forum; it drives me away time & time again. (I know, I know, "no great loss", ha). Did we not all move out to the country to be closer to wildlife & nature? So what, we get out here and then shoot the wildlife cuz it happens to cross some man-made boundary that we've established? Don't know about you all, but when I see a coyote or a fox or other cool animal out this way, I am positively elated for the rest of the day! I feel honored, and in awe. Killing it would be the LAST thing on my mind. And yes, I have had losses of animals. In a way, I could argue that the losses here are even more difficult, because all these animals are pets & rescues, not livestock that we raise to eat or sell. But even so, when there is a loss, we try to view it in perspective. The wild animals have needs, too. How can we blame them for simply availing themselves of a food source? As mentioned above, it IS our responsibility to keep the domestic animals safe. If wild creatures can get 'em, it must be because we have not provided adequate housing or fencing or other protection (like a dog). Granted, sometimes wild animals become so destructive and bold that they must be done away with. I'm not saying that lethal means of control are NEVER justified. But to shoot on sight? No. Even if you gave the animal a chance and it DID cause trouble, how much trouble can it actually be? I mean, what does it REALLY cost to replace a few chickens or rabbits? The financial aspect is hardly a factor, in my view. The emotional loss is much more significant, but still does not justify the shooting of wildlife just because it dares to show up on "our" property!

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 28, 2001.

Back on the farm (growing up) we had a german shephard bitch that seemed to keep the coyotes out of the farm proper (shelters, coops, and small fenced places) near the house. I don't recall that they ever actually got into the chicken coop, which was nearest the outskirts but we could hear them in the woods and fields just beyond. They mostly roamed near at night, and the foul were out during he day. It seemed to me the coyotes kept the possums and raccons away from the grain and coops, since their were lots of wild animals interested in what the farm animals ate.

I wouldn't shoot an animal I wasn't going to eat without clear and present danger.

-- Marty Puckett (Mrs.Puck@Excite.com), January 28, 2001.

Even though I was outspoken on the predatory dog thread(shoot,shovel, and shut up), I really don't recommend shooting coyotes just because you see them. Did they look healthy? If they were out in your hay field they were probably looking for mice. If they look like they are starving then they are probably overpopulated and need thinning a bit. If they are skinny and starving then they will be more of a threat to your animals. The only animals I have ever lost to coyotes were some rabbits that I stupidly put in a hutch on the other side of the barn. This hutch was up on legs and the coyotes would try to get the rabbits from underneath and scarred the rabbits so badly that they broke their necks hitting the side of the cage. Of course rabbits are the natural prey of coyotes. We did go spotlighting for coyotes when I lived in Texas....but only because they were so overpopulated that they were sickly and starving. I saw my first coyote up here in Missouri the other day and it was really beautiful. Healthy, sleek, beautiful thick coat. I'd never seen one like this before. If you haven't actually lost any stock to these coyotes and they look healthy enough I recommend leaving them alone. They play an important role in keeping mice and rabbit populations in check.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), January 28, 2001.

I'm not far from you (Delaware County, New York). Its been my observation that coyotes here usually are in hayfields or along power line right of ways hunting mice and rabbits. Our rabbit population has rebounded the past couple of years as well as the turkeys and deer here. I have heard that if you have only one or two resident coyotes in the area and they haven't bothered you, let them be. They are terretorial and if you kill them, you might be inviting a larger, more aggressive group in. We have spotted often the past few years a large single coyote along the electric company right of way. He looks healthy and there are lots of food opportunities for him away from our sheep and ducks. I only leave the sheep out at night inside a pasture with 6 strand 52" high tensile electric ( the voltage is minimum 6000volts) The geese go in a building at night and the duck pond has high tensile around it as well. Of course, we still have great horned owl problems. I got them to leave the area by playing a radio near the pond at night one summer ( during the democratic conventions...wise old owls that they were, moved on).Seriously, I think you need to monitor your situation. If you have any dogs, just their proximity and barking can scare away the coyotes as well as a yard light.I walk my four dogs regularly around the property lines and love to mark everything along the way. My beekeeping supplier also sells a critter getter, a motion activated light and alarm system , for both 2 legged and 4 legged trespassers. I think that would work great.

-- kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), January 28, 2001.

If they are close enough to your stock to be nosing around the hen house than I would say you are only nights away from trouble. We have always used Rhodesian Ridgebacks for farm/stock dogs. They are wonderful with all of the stock, and can clear on a dead run any fence in their way to protect their stock. I would be very afraid to have to depend only upon fire power to keep predators at bay, especially in our area, where more and more of the forest is logged, people moving in. We don't allow, even the white tail deer into our fencelines. If I happened to be around I would shoot to kill them, I am just very glad that we only hear coyotes, and the only ones we have seen were dead. Fox around here cause us no problems, I think they have a larger population of rodents, even our dogs don't seem to mind them out in the woods. Farm dogs are the way to go, I am not really a fan of the guardian dog, locked out with the stock. My dogs protect the goats, the hens and us. I am looking forward to moving the donkeys out with the yearling goats this spring, I have heard some wonderful stories about them, and I can tell you just from the small amount of interaction they have had with the goats, that all is fine. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 28, 2001.

If you have small dogs or cats, you had better put them up at night or they will be coyote food. I'm not much at all on the shoot on site deal, but coyotes are perfectly capable of taking new born calves and anything else they come upon that is smaller or weaker. One of my childhood memories is hearing a new calf being eaten alive by coyotes in the dark in front of the house. The mother was fighting them, but they were eating the calf all the same. My father shot out over the area because it was so dark he couldn't see anything and was afraid he'd hit the cow. The coyotes continued to eat the calf, who was still bawling. I have no love lost on coyotes, and would advise caution when dealing with them. They are shy and sneaky in small numbers, but get brave in large packs. A pack of about 30 once charged my uncle when he was feeding cows in a remote creek bottom. Fortunately, he was near his truck. He never went down there without a gun after that, nor did he ever buy a hornless cow.

In December, human remains were found beside a highway near Shreveport, LA. The television report said the man had been eaten by coyotes, but they could not tell if he was already dead or if they killed him as there wasn't much left. He was a homeless person.

Chances are the coyotes you have are relatively harmless, but it always pays to be cautious. The paranoid survive.

-- (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), January 28, 2001.

Coyotes eat carrion and small prey (ie, rabbits, rats and, yes, house cats), so if you "shoot on sight" every one you see, you will more than likely have a population explosion of rabbits and field mice. I don't have to tell you what that will do to your gardens and crops. Long ago, coyotes did live and hunt in large packs, but more often nowadays you will see only small groups of two or four which to my knowledge can't bring down any kind of large livestock. Lambs will probably be fair game IF the coyotes are hungry, but if they are faced with either catching a rabbit or trying to bring down a lamb that's being protected by many other ewes and rams that are as big as if not bigger than the coyotes themselves, they will go after the easier prey. I started hearing coyotes off in the fields and pastures about 5 years ago and have yet to have a problem with them ~ no animals lost or even tracks seen in the daytime. We keep big dogs (90+ pound Rhodesian Ridgeback/Lab mixes) who run free so they can mark their territory, keep all types of wastes and animal carcasses away from the house and lock up all small animals at night (the barn cats hide in the barns). We have more of a problem with stray dogs. I still hate to kill them even after they've tried to get in to my animals, but I will kill them if I have to (which means that they would have become a real problem, killing and coming back for more). So far, I haven't had to do that as I give them a chance to make up there own mind that my place isn't a good place to be first ~ I shoot them with rock salt. Haven't seen one I've already hit with that come back yet. I'll bet that will work on the coyotes, too.

As for coyotes killing a grown person ... YA-HAH-HAH-CRAP!!!!! Show me documentation of that ever happening. My father-in-law helped build a ranch house (barns and all) in west Texas when he was younger. There wasn't anything to sleep in 'til they got the house built, so they had to sleep on army cots by the campfire in the open air. He said he would wake up most every morning to find coyote tracks all around the campfire and the cots and the only thing missing would be some bacon or leftovers from dinner. DO NOT EVER believe everything the media tells you. I worked on the local EMS and fire dept for 10 years and every time a news report came out about something that happened out here (a wreck, a house fire, etc.), they got something about it WRONG. How do I know? Because I there! The news media isn't there to give you the news ~ they are there to sell advertising time. They can't sell advertising time if no one watches their program, so what's the best way to get you to stay tuned? By telling you horrible wild stories like some guy MAY have been killed by coyotes. Hogwash!

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), January 28, 2001.

I admire anyone who wants to take a wait and see attitude toward coyotes. Your attitude might change when you are picking up the pieces of your favorite new goat, or watch coyotes eat the afterbirth out of the back end of a cow (while their buddies are eating the calf). I have cats to eat the mice, dogs to chase away the wild rabbits, and .22 hollow points for the coyotes. I can't afford to co- exist. I came here to build a life for myself, and that means the predators have to move on.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), January 28, 2001.

I would like to remind people again that not all coyotes attack stock. (and the story about them scavenging the human remains -- domestic dogs do the same thing. If not them, buzzards and crows. If not them, bacteria.) There is a lot of hysteria associated with coyotes and wolves. I'm living in the middle of nowhere, and coyotes kill cottontails under my windows at 4 AM -- they haven't taken so much as a duck or chicken. Some dumb ones(probably young ones)got a little pushy with the horses and got kicked for their troubles, never to try THAT again. It's called Aversion Training, the same as a load of rock salt in the backside. I rarely even see the wolves, except scavenging road kill.

If you shoot these coyotes that are not harming your livestock, you can be opening the door for others to move in that DO primarily prey on livestock. Wait and see, and see to your own stock's safety at night.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), January 28, 2001.

We moved to the mountains and everyone told us we wouldn't be able to raise sheep here. On their advice we bought our first rifle. Two years later, we've never needed to shoot anything, our great pyrs are all the protection we need. We are as rural as you can imagine, we hear coyotes everynight and haven't lost a citter yet. Get good dogs!! Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), January 28, 2001.

Holster your guns folks, noted and respected wildlife biologist Scott Shalloway reminds us rural dwellers over and over that predatory mammals of all types (this includes mountain lions and wolves and coyotes) serve an IMPORTANT ecological function in the food chain of North America, they eat the mice, moles, shrews, voles, rabbits, etc., etc. Without them we would have severe ecological repercussions like the Plague, Hanta virus, etc., just ask any of the Native Americans in AZ or NM, and they will explain it fully for you.

If a prey animal kills your domestic animal, it is YOUR FAULT, not the prey animal's fault. It is your responsibility to physically protect, either by guard dogs, stout fence or other enclosure, or by actually "shepherding" your herd or flock, you know, as it was done from the beginning of time, you are out there monitoring your flock or herd if they are out on unsecure pasture. We have gotten "lazy" about this!!!

Did you move to the country to appreciate and respect nature? To be a true caretaker of your animals? Or did you move to the country to be a "master of your domain", making nature bend to your unrealistic "law", and whining about the consequenses when nature's "law" dominates?

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 28, 2001.

I would say get a Great Pyrenees,turn them out with your stock and watch your problem go away. When we had a problem w/ dogs comeing here we sent the male and he fought them off we later learned we should but a spike collar on him.The collar is the type w/ the spikes pointing out ward worn loosely aroung the neck,this helps the dog if something goes for their neck. I have a nice male i could lend you.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), January 28, 2001.

We have plenty of coyotes here. I have seen them run right through our goat pasture while I was doing the morning milking, about 30 feet from the barn. They have to run through the pasture, to get to the colony of 'whistle pig' gophers that they prey on. I would never even consider shooting them unless they gave me cause to do so, and they haven't ever bothered anything of ours in all the time we've been here (over ten years). When I first moved to the country, I had the attitude that wildlife was for killing. We would talk about wanting to see a cougar, bear, deer,wolf,etc, so we could kill it. Now we have weasels that come right into our house to kill the mice, and move out again when the mice are gone. Whenever I tell people about it, they think I should kill the weasels, and get a cat for the mice, or poison the mice! Anyhow, about the coyotes, we have lots of kid goats every spring, as well as free ranging ducks and ducklings. The only thing that has ever been a problem is a racoon killing the ducks, and domestic dogs barking at the stock. I think it is far more likely that the person who had been eaten was already dead or that dogs had something to do with it.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 28, 2001.

I know people near here that say they don't bother the coyotes that they have because they haven't bothered their sheep. Thats good for them so far. We have not been so lucky. Have had large dogs killed and one took over 200 stitches to patch him up. They get the chickens and ducks as fast as we can get them, in broad daylight. We live completely isolated from other neighbors and have several hundred acres behind us that is a blow down from a tornado about five years ago. Its impossible for a human to crawl through the downed timber and will remain this way for probably 10 more years. Coyotes are rasing in this mess by the dozens, sounds like thousands some nights. We have to bring in the german shepards or they would get them. Coyotes are not native to North Alabama and were brought in here by some idiot years ago. They are really bad. We have no plans for livestock because we just can't keep trying to raise it when it just ends up coyote food. Last cattle we had we had to shoot two that were hurt by coyotes and yes it was coyotes we heard them but could do nothing. If we see a coyote it will be shot. We killed a hog three years ago and they came into the yard and we had to fire guns to make them leave so we could get to the house. We used to have several covies of quail on the place now none. Don't like them, have no use for them, and never will.

-- David (bluewaterfarm@mindspring.com), January 28, 2001.

Predator control is a contentious issue as you can see.In the north east they don't seem to be a big problem(coyotes)They are animals that are taught and socialized by the parents rather than running on 100% instinct.(mom taught me to eat mice and bunnies vs mom taught me the barn yard around lambing time is a great place for a meal)On my farm we miss the odd chicken that is free ranged.We also see the odd coyote running around the yard at night.We keep the majority of our animals penned.We haven't had any problems with them.On my brothers place in kansas they need to be shot out routienly because they attack mother cows and calfs.(they have become the local packs diet) If they are not making a habit of killing your stock leave them alone.They are interesting and clever critters.If I'm dumb enough to leave a pullet out were they can catch them it is my fault.We have a black bear that I bump into at night three or four times a year and he is startleing but has not been a problem either.It's fun to have them around.Then again I'm always armed so not much worries me out here.Keep your stock close stacy and wait and see is my advice.If there is enough natural food to support them they should not be a problem.It does not always need to be war with wild life.

-- Gregory J Smith (gsmith@tricountyi.net), January 29, 2001.

We had the same problem here in Middle Tennessee a couple of years ago - the population of coyotes got a little high. They were coming into suburban areas and killing small pets. We had orders to shoot them and report on the population. Most of the problem was with coy- dogs - they are bigger and more aggressive and not afraid of humans. There were some concerns about them attacking children, but no actual cases that I know of. I would be more afraid of disease. The population is down now, people still report them, but unless they appear sick we don't do much about it. Note: My friend Barbara uses the tails in her crafts, so if you shoot one, how would you feel about sending her the tail. (Weird I know, but she's my buddy - I had to ask)

-- Linda Al-Sangar (alsangal@brentwood-tn.org), January 29, 2001.

All of my stock is in at night...in the winter. The chickens, and goats will be in at night in the summer also, but the horses, and beef cows when we buy them this spring) are out nights during the warm weather. I would rather co-exist with the coyotes but not at the expense of my stock. I have a friend that lives about 15 miles from me and they are having a very bad time with coyotes. They lost one beef calf and a neighoring dairy farmer lost 5 calves last spring. My friend was walking down a dirt road near their home and a coyote shadowed her for over a half mile. I have another friend that has a riding stable and she has had problems with coyotes chasing horses and one or two were put through fences. My husband and I saw coyote tracks while deer hunting this fall but this was our first sighting (and hearing) of them.

They have definately been around the barn. The female is large, and looks to be in good health, the male is smaller and has a useless back leg--he is basically three legged. Three of my dogs are large enough to kill them (110# (and he's just a year old), 82#, and 60#) but the fourth is a beagle (who thinks he's huge), and I have 3 cats. I can't let the dogs free roam at night as I have one close neighbor and they're older people. I'd like to be able to put the goat(s) in a portable pen made of cattle panels and move them around in the summer, and free range the chickens only during the day tho. I've decided to wait and see, but I won't allow anything to be killed, even a chicken. I know I will be considered soft hearted (and/or stupid to many) but all my animals mean something to me and I can't allow them to be hurt...I'm responsible for them.

Stacy Rohan, in Windsor NY where it's 2 degrees.

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), January 29, 2001.

Hey Wingnut!

My husband got attacked by 3 adult coyotes last summer.He has no doubt that if they had gotten him on the ground that they would have killed him!Never underestimate wildlife!If you're going to depend on a dog for your livestock it better be a couple of big bad dogs-we just had a full grown HUGE Lab killed by 2 coyotes at our neighbors last week!We have a Border Collie and a good size Shephard mix.Both have been in fights with coyotes and both have been saved by my husbands' gun.The Shephard mix was being dragged away by one coyote when my husband shot it!

-- nobrabbit (conlane@prodigy.net), January 29, 2001.

This is a tough decision. We shoot the coyotes here. We lost every single chicken I had and most of the ducks and half of my geese to them. They would come clear into the yard to get them. They ignored the sheep and goats (Nubians and very protective) - would even walk through them. They have run the cattle though and the horses - more than one night I have had to run out with a gun because I could hear the horses raising cain.

Too many so-called coyotes are half-breeds that have in-bred with coyotes - domestic dogs that have been dumped. If you do not keep the population of coyotes down, you will be over run with them in short order. When we first moved here, we let them be, but within a couple of years there were too many. They even follow the tractors when we are baling - they are just not afraid of humans and that is bad. They have killed off any other small wildlife on the property.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), January 29, 2001.

I agree that the biggest danger is from crossbreed coyotes, the smartest dogs I ever had where coy/sheltie mix,our old female killed a 6ft rattle snake in our back yard. Be sure to keep your animals vaccinated against rabies, you can buy the stuff and do shots your self. I lived in a suburb of El paso TX for many years, LOTS of coyotes they come up to the houses to get food and all it takes to have them attack a person is no fear of humans,or being cornerd, a little domestic blood does alot of harm, and some will follow a dog as leader which is a vary bad deal.Remember coyotes make their living by grabing and running from larger pred's, they are risk takers by design,for the most part one or two, no problem, a working pack[which don't take long]different story.

-- Thumper (slrldr@aol.com), January 29, 2001.

Wingnut, I tried to find the documentation you wanted, but the archives don't go back that far. I'm glad your relatives didn't have any trouble with coyotes. They were in west Texas. I am in east. We have coyotes here that stand waist tall on me, and I'm 5'8". They are enormous, well fed on Pilgrim's Pride chickens and all the hormones that go with it, as we live in the chicken production area of east Texas. The uncle I spoke of was no coward. There really are huge packs of coyotes here and have been since the county quite paying a bounty on them in the seventies. It is impossible to camp out in our area. Our neighbors tried a couple of years ago, and the coyotes literally ran across them in their sleeping bags in the night. They were no cowards either, but they formed a tight group and worked their way back home, guns in hand, abandoning all their equipment until daylight. If you would like to come camp here, let me know. I'd be glad to point you to the place the neighbors set up, and even help you tote in your stuff.

-- (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), January 29, 2001.

I hope I haven't jumped on this thread too late. First let me say that while all advice is well intended , it isn't always pertinent. The horror stories of west Texas, etc. need be all but fully ignored here, only because the biological situations are vastly different. The coyote in NY is on a comeback, after decades of the senseless killing prescribed in some of these responses. Secondly the NYSDEC is not always the best source for info. , I've found their responses to be more practical for them but not neccessarily the bigger picture. Thirdly, let us not fall into the same silly ways of thinking our forefathers did that perpetuated this current environmental wasteland. To have livestock invariably means to have loss of a percentage of it, do we give in ? NO. but do we restart the same hysteria that killed the coyote and a number of other predators off to begin with? NO. The spiritually sound thought process understands that we are only a cog in a much larger wheel. Homesteaders or otherwise. Try any method of discouraging their efforts, including security for your stock, before loading the gun. Gun first, thought second got us into trouble the first time around, let us all (where possible) have more insight this time around. E-mail me personally if you wish so this doesn't get any longer, we are in WNY. And as always best of luck!!

-- dan (dcbaker@2ki.net), January 30, 2001.

Coyotes are out both night and day. They are omnivores, meaning they will eat everything from meat to berries to whatever. One taste of any of your critters, and they will return until the restaurant is out of food. Your problems will really explode when they have pups to feed. Shoot 'em!!

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), February 01, 2001.

Rogo,

This very situation has been running through my mind. Coyotes talking, "Honey, why should we have squirrel when we can go to Chez Kincora and have chicken or goat? Both are wonderful this time of year". "Yes dear, and the best part--no hunting"!

OK, I know that I have an active imagination. But, everyone that I've talked to in my area has said to shoot them---now. I haven't seen nor heard them in 3 days, does that mean they've moved on? I'm a decent shot, and can legally shoot them, but I don't really want to do it if there is any other alternative. I guess I'm gonna have to think on this a bit longer.

Stacy Rohan, in Windsor, NY where the driveway and barnyard are a skating rink.

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), February 01, 2001.

I read all the answers to your problem today and am amazed that only one of them had the solution: GREAT PYRENEES dogs. Period. Nothing else. No shooting. No one needs to be afraid. Depending on the area in need of protection, one may be sufficient. In a wide open area covering several acres, two may be necessary. And no, they are not just dogs. They are guardians of anything in need of protection, and that includes you. Predators of any kind have no chance of even coming near. Exception maybe at night a snake that they don't notice getting some of the eggs or baby chicks. The amazing thing is that the dogs are exceptionally gentle. Of all guardian dog breeds (NOT guard dogs!) they have the least documented incurrance of ever having bitten a human. They are never on the offense and will apply only as much defense as necessary. If no aggresion on the part of the intruder, the only thing they will do is make it impossible to move about. In case of aggression however, they will kill. Great Pyrenees have killed bears and mountain lions. They will also prevent neighbors' pet dogs mauling your baby goats or cats. Even large birds flying over your place are considered a possible threat. After getting my first GP 12 years ago and being totally amazed, I have never been without one. I live in the woods without close neighbors, surrounded by coyotes, skunks, racoons, opossums. As soon as the sun goes down, the coyotes start howling and the dogs start barking, warning them. I have seen coyotes from my front yard at different times in each direction. After I leave for work in the morning, my herd of dairy goats, including kids, walk all over the woods browsing. One or two of the dogs are with them at all times, the others take care of approaching threats. And no, they are not like other dogs: they have no hunting instinct (chase an intruder only as far as necessary), do not retrieve (do not play frisbie). They are very intelligent and think for themselves. They will protect anything in their charge, including cats and chickens. So if you have a chance to get one of these dogs, consider yourself lucky. It will turn out to be your working partner, totally aware of the job you expect them to fulfill. And make sure it is one from a working line, does not have to be registered to work well. Don't be impressed by one from a champion blood line, they are bred strictly for show and have hardly any working instincts left. I have learned a lot from these dogs and from time to time am still amazed at what I still learn from them. I will be happy to answer anyone having a specific question about these dogs.

-- karin macaulay (kmacaulay@co.brazos.tx.us), February 01, 2001.

Stacy, you've got a lot of answers to sort through, you'll have to decide what to do. Personally, I would leave them alone until they caused problems, then shoot them.

Dan, what environmental wasteland do you live in? We are in Central NH, with woods, lakes (clean), rivers (also clean), and all kinds of wildlife all over the place. I certainly wouldn't call it any kind of a wasteland, though not the best soil for farming. I think some people are a little paranoid on this topic!

About dogs, Great Pyrenees and the other LGD's are excellent dogs, and two or three of them could solve your problem without having to shoot anything. However, they do have some drawbacks, as neat as they are, and aren't for everyone. They are nocturnal, and can be very noisy at night, not a problem unless you have close neighbors who are annoyed by it. And they often will decide that they need more territory to guard than actually belongs to their owners, which may or may not be all right with the neighbors. Whether it's all right with the neighbors or not, it takes an excellent fence to keep them in if they want to get out. An alternative, which may be better for some people, is the old-fashioned farm collie. (No, I am not talking about Border collies, here!) They are very protective, and more territorial; once they know the boundaries of your property, they usually won't leave it. It will still take two or three of them to deal with a pack of coyotes, though. The farm collies all but died out because no one ever bothered to set up a registry for them until fairly recently. Now their numbers are starting to increase again, which is wonderful, as they are not only useful, they are an heritage breed. For more information, go to

http://www.geocities.com/farmcollie1/index.html

Someone commented that one thing that is often lacking on farms today is direct supervision of the livestock. We expect to put them out in a field, and be there when we go to look at them, but in the meantime they take care of themselves. There are two reasons for this. One is the invention of wire fencing that made it possible to keep most stock in and relatively safe. The other is a shortage of man-power to spend hours every day, actually living with the animals. It might be ideal to be able to do so, but most of us, even if we are home full-time, just can't do this. We have other chores to do. Our ancestors often used to just turn their stock loose to fend for themselves, and hope they could keep the predators down enough by hunting that they didn't lose all the stock. We can't do that, and don't want to. Yes, use protection dogs of whatever breed suits your situation, good fencing, put the animals up at night if you have to, but if you are still having problems, shoot the coyotes. You will never eliminate them -- wouldn't want to -- but they don't seem to have too many natural enemies, and someone has to keep them in check.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), February 01, 2001.

I feel I must apologize for coming on so strong in my answer to the possibility that coyotes may have killed a man. When I wrote that, I think I was reacting more to the media reporting aspect. A local family's house recently burned down and they lost their 6 year old daughter in the fire. The local news media was very harsh on the parents. I know these people and the people who fought the fire and what the news station reported was far from accurate or fair. I'm sure there are lots of reporters and news stations who do report accurately and fairly, but this one didn't ~ they only heaped more misery and pain on those parents' shoulders when they already had more than they could deal with.

Please accept my apology. I was giving a blanket statement and that was wrong for me to do. I still say that coyotes won't attack a person, but I don't doubt that there have been coy-dogs who have. Heck, I'm not the definitive expert on them, so there may have been some isolated incident of a hungry coyote pack who have lost their fear of humans and have come after someone, but I seriously doubt it and really wouldn't believe it unless I saw some type of hard proof. And this is only my opinion.

I still also stand by my opinion that I wouldn't shoot them unless they become destructive and pose a threat to me or my livestock. Then with rock salt the first time and lead the next.

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), February 02, 2001.

those stinkin coyotes breed like mice--killl em every chance you get.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), February 03, 2001.

The Coyote

Once upon a time, in what they called “ The New World.” the coyote was the master of his universe. he roamed wide and free, going wherever he chose. The coyote had many brothers upon this land, all living in harmony, neither destroying nor deleting the natural supplies of the earth. Then an Introduced species had begun to multiply across this New World. These newcomers believed that what they needed and desired was more important then the health of the whole. The coyote understood that he had much that he could teach these newcomers. But the newcomers were in too big of a hurry to stop and listen to the message of the coyote, instead they persisted in tearing down the old system, taking the best land for themselves, then depleting and poisoning the soil. They dirtied the very air that they breathed and made the water unfit to drink. The newcomers couldn't understand, and thus feared the ways of the coyote and set out to destroy him. The coyote mourned for the life that he once knew, and he wept to see the wild places disappear. But the coyote knew that there would come a time when once again the coyote would spread far and wide, reclaiming his territories, to howl his message to the wind. This would be during the time of the newcomer’s second choice. The newcomers would start to feel the results of their ways. They would become more aware of the fact that when they destroyed any little part of God’s creation then, they ultimately destroyed a part of themselves. They would come to realize that the future of the earth was up to them. So when the coyote begins to howl his message through the night air in places where he has long been absent, the newcomers will get their second chance to listen and to learn, to choose not to conquer but to live in peace with, and to respect all other forms of life or to choose to continue in their hot headed attack upon the earth and it's inhabitants.

-- Trendle ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), February 07, 2001.

Would someone please explain to me how you put "rock salt" into a gun?

-- van (vangel@canada.com), February 07, 2001.

Dont shoot them!!! What I would do is fire bullets in the air. That will scare them off. Dont leave your food out, then the cyoties will realize that there isnt enogh to feed a family. Shoot NEAR them NOT at them! That will scare them away and evertime you see them do that. They will realize that it's not safe here to live.It's not their fault that they kill. Thats their instinct.Please dont shoot them! I love animals and it would brake my hart if you did. I would even PAY you for not shooting them!!!!!

-- Stephanie (chihuahua_pup@hotmail.com), April 10, 2001.

Shoot 'em! We got along fine without 'em. Now that they have re-introduced them to our area we have the frequent pleasure of listening to cows bawling for their slaughtered calves. They'll come right into the farrowing house and get baby pigs out of the crates. I say kill them all!

-- Paul (hoyt@egyptian.net), April 11, 2001.

I understand how you feel Stephanie, really I do. I haven't shot a coyote yet as I haven't seen any lately, but I will if they attack my stock.

I don't shoot guns in the air either the bullets have to come down somewhere, right? I aim to kill, because what I find ugly is a wounded animal that crawls off to die somewhere.

Stacy Rohan in Windsor, NY

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), April 11, 2001.

What we do is shoot close enough to them to make the dirt fly near them. That's what scares them around here, not the sound of the gun, they're used to that. They've never actually killed anything out here but dogs and cats and I think maybe a goat. We have lots of calves around here roaming the hills and not one has ever been bothered. In fact, we watched 3 coyotes cut through a herd of cows and calves just last week. The cattle didn't pay the first bit of attention to them and vice versa. I guess it just depends on your area and how much food there is for them around.

-- Nobrabbit (KY) (conlane@prodigy.net), April 11, 2001.

They've never actually killed anything out here but dogs and cats and I think maybe a goat.

......................................

This would only be nothing if it wasn't your dog, your cat, or your best goat!

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 11, 2001.

Duh Vicki! Only meaning not livestock. The goat had gotten loose and was running around in the woods.

-- nobrabbit (conlane@prodigy.net), April 11, 2001.

Shoot 'em. And by the way... NEVER fire a bullet up into the air. They have to come down someplace!

-- DK (bow300fps@yahoo.com), June 01, 2001.

I don't advocate killing anything without need but coyotes and feral dogs come near to being exceptions.

If you are able you should lock up your stock at night if you have real predator problems but dogs and coyotes are not adverse to killing during the day and are quite capable of waiting until you're not there to do it. Good guard dogs are very helpful but dogs can also be somewhat problematical. You can't just buy them at the hardware store and turn them loose. Some careful investigation and an understanding of your obligations towards them to get what you need from them is in order.

Here in the state of Florida the Fish & Game Commission will shake your hand if you can kill coyotes. They're not native here and are becoming an increasing problem. They're also very intelligent, very adaptable and not very discriminating about what they'll eat. Lot of people around here have goats, sheep, poultry and small pets and I know several who have lost animals to coyotes, some taken in broad daylight. Coyote hunting takes a bit of skill and understanding but it may be that you'll have to resort to it.

Other predators I'm much more forebearing on. Just drove forty miles round trip hauling off three yellow rat snakes who'd gotten into the habit of eating my eggs. I'd tolerated one for months because he also at the local rodents but he started inviting his relatives for supper! Took a couple of days to catch and transport them but I did. Our local NATIVE predatory birds I wouldn't shoot even if they did eat my hens. I'd find another way to deterring them. Coyotes and feral dogs I don't even think twice about before I reach for the .22 rifle.

={(Oak)-

-- LiveOak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), June 01, 2001.