I received an email from a group called TOTO who are meeting in Washington to discuss the constituionality of income taxes. They claim to have found proof that the federal government has no legal right to take income taxes. They will follow the meeting with a publicity campaign. I forwarded the info to Wayne Hicks, who does a radio show for sierratimes.com and he has done a week long series on the tax issue. He has begun a Truth and Taxation Association in response to verifying this info. You are not required, by law, to pay income taxes! Not only that, but you can get the proof and exactly what to do with it from votinghouse.com or by emailing hicks@sierratimes.com. Go on over to sierratimes.com, scroll down to the headline about the radio show on taxation, and go listen to it. If you can't listen to it, there is a printable version available. Tell me what you think!

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), January 26, 2001

Answers

I know there are at least 2 reason. Taxation without reprsentation,, whos your rep in the IRS??? Also,, income,, isnt income as defined,, its a trade for services,, your time,, talents, ect.. for a paycheck. Income as in intrest from a bank,, stocks, ect, is the only thing taxable.

-- Stan (sopal@net-port.com), January 26, 2001.

I was typing an answer and it disappeared. I think, if this is on twice, oh well. Here's a shorter version.

Not only is the income tax illegal, so is drivers' license and marriage license. You need to have a trust fund set up cause you sure won't be getting social security. There's a place in Fl. you can send for a packet of forms for $20.

I have been told if you don't have a contract with a collection agency, you don't have to pay them either, unless the original contract with the original company states a collection agency could be involved. They paid off your loan and now they want you to pay them. There's a form for that too.

-- Cindy (SE IN.) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 26, 2001.

www.endtheirs.com

is another good place

-- noone (nowhere@nowhere.com), January 26, 2001.

I went to the endtheirs site. I understand what he wants us to do but he is suggesting sending the letters to the office here in Cinti. Wouldn't the IRS need to receive an overabundance of these letters at all their offices to make any difference? It sounds like a good idea but I think it would take everyone sending his letter to the processing office where they would normally send their taxes. Just wondering what you think.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), January 26, 2001.

Considering that the sixteenth amendment states:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived,without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

anybody that tries to say that income tax is unconstitutional is rather ignorant or a huckster.

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), January 26, 2001.

My neighbor and his partner used to council people on this type of stuff. Regardless of your interpretation, the IRS has more guns than you do, and WILL take your house, etc. if you aren't careful.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), January 26, 2001.

OK, look at the other side. The federal (and by inference) state income taxes are declared to be unconstitutional. That actually solves some other problems.

- Don't like the military. Hey, no problem. The U.S. won't have any since they will be no money available to pay for it.

- Don't like a particular federal or state agency. Hey, no problem...

- Don't want you children to be education...

- Want to have to ride on interstate highways at a maximum speed of 20 mph because there has been no road repair...

- Don't want your parents to receive their social security payments? The money may be in a trust, but who is going to be available to send out the checks.

- Don't like the welfare system. No problem...

What are you offered as a replacement for a federal/state income tax. I happen to live in one of the few states without a state income tax. However, there is a state sales tax on just about everything, including groceries. Somehow or other the piper is going to have to be paid!

A national sales tax, on top of other retail taxes, is about the only other viable alternative. This type of taxation has repeatedly been shown to be regressive, in that it hurts those with the lowest income the most.

I consider the taxes I pay (including federal income taxes) to be a tremendous bargain for the quality of life it affords me.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 27, 2001.

Sounds great doesn't it, no income taxes, try it and sooner or later you will find you listened to some idiot and they are selling your house and you are on the inside of some bars looking out. You have to pay taxes, and really no one would like to have to provide the services we get for them out of their pockets. Now as to cutting out the waste that is a good idea.

-- David (bluewaterfarm@mindspring.com), January 27, 2001.

It's really academic. You'll never find a judge to side with you against the IRS. If he did, it would be his last case! My solution is a little different: no income, no taxes! This is one of the benefits of homesteading and being out of debt. If you own your land and home outright, grow your own food and barter where possible, you can maybe keep your required income low enough to pay little or no income tax. Not there yet by any means, but working on it.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), January 27, 2001.

The first income and property taxes were levied to fund the Continental Army in 1775, before the drafting of the Constitution.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 28, 2001.

The only fair way to have an income tax is to tax at the time of purchase (10% or what ever). A national sales tax, This will save millions in paper work alone, and a reduction in staff at IRS. It will be the most fair, as long as they don't start granting dedutions. Everyone pays the same Rich or Poor. The Tax structer today interfers with the free market structure of our country.

Of course changing the current system will be discouraged by big business.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), January 28, 2001.

Hillbilly:

Think about it. There is a huge difference if you have to pay a 10% retail tax and you earn $20,000 a year versus if you earn $200,000 a year. I'm not, in principle, against a national sales tax instead of a federal income tax. I just don't know how it could be implemented to be as fair to the bottom wage earners as the top ones.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 28, 2001.

The IRS isn't doing their job as delineated in the Constitution by collecting a VOLUNTARY tax from people's pay checks without....get ready here's the word that is the OBJECT.......REPRESENTATION.Remember the Declaration of Independence? The money they collect from income taxes with the exception of SS does NOT stay in this country. It goes to the Federal Reserve Board and gets divied up and sent to the World Bank, and the IMF. The Federal Reserve isn't any more federal than Federal Express or Federal Ammunition.

I'll post a million sites to look into this further later today. I have them bookmarked on another computer. There are several proven arguments and several where for lack of understanding of the law people have lost big time.

"The IRS....They've got what it takes to take what you've got"

"US Constitution....VOID where prohibited by law"

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 29, 2001.

http://www.teamlaw.org/mainTB.htm

http://thorin.adnc.com/~hank14/

http://www.givemeliberty.org/

http://www.joyfoundation.com/

http://www.informamerica.com/

http://www.freedomabovefortune.com/

http://www.devvy.com/irsindex.html

http://www.independentamerica.org/detaxanswers.htm

www.ottoskinner.com

Now for the other side:

http://members.home.com/flaherty15/conspire.htm

www.militiawatchdog.com - This site has a bunch of cases (with numbers etc.) against different people with their arguments that are helpful to research.

There are links off of many of these sites to other aspects of the "question" both pro and con. That's how I research things myself, but beware as there are a lot of real scams everywhere.

Have a nice journey!

-- Like that makes any difference! (nodyourmamma@baba.com), January 29, 2001.

Ken, why wouldn't it be fair. It's not the fault of the poor man or the rich man, this is a country of opportunity and to penalize the rich man for earning so much money is unfair. This is why I think a national sales tax with a rate of about 10% insures everyone is paying an equal amount of tax at the time of their purchase no matter how much money they make.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), January 29, 2001.

FWIW, I've heard something like this before. Some of the so-called patriot groups are into the tax protesting thing. A buddy of mine is nearly done serving almost five years for his troubles so think very carefully before risking it all.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 30, 2001.

I have been to at least two countries where the government does not collect income tax, trust me you would not like it...

-- John Hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 31, 2001.

The whole issue of the illegality of the income tax stems from the (apparently) accurate information that the constitutional amendment that set up the income tax (btw: the founding fathers made it unconstitutional to levy an income tax..had to change the Constitution to do it...was never supposed to go over 3%, and was not intended to apply to the average worker, stc) was never actually ratified by the number of states required for it to become law. For instance, Kentucky is shown as approving it, when in fact they voted against it. There seems to be a lot of this type of hanky-panky in the approval. So...it probably isn't really legal, but that isn;t going to stop the IRS(gestapo?) when they come to get you. Just shows what happens when you let socialists (liberals) loose in the government. They were in power at the time of the enactment. Prior to that time, the federal government was financed through excises and tariffs. Nice thing about that was it kept them doing their constitutionally-mandated jobs, rather than interfering in our everyday lives.

-- Wayne (wallen328@aol.com), February 01, 2001.

We have paid big bucks for lawyers and others who have claimed to take care of the problem with the IRS. it has cost us more to do that than to pay what we orignally owed which is now almost doubled because of it. It has only been one year now. We also have our employer taking out the max from my husbands checks because the IRS threatened them and they wont listen to us, they will only listen to the IRS> thus.. we are on the verge of losing our home. We now cannot make all our payments. We are also losing our family members who do not agree with it. It has nearly cost us our membership in our church, they have refused to even help us with our housepayment as we are soon to live in the streets after buying our new home one year ago. We have also been threatend that we cannot use our temple recommends with our church now also. We have suffered much emotional trauma not to mention the toll its taken on our marriage.

I would think twice about this folks. My attorney is still taking my money and says,, i dont know what else to do. Nice...............

Well, we will probably end up in jail and paying them forever. It may be right, but you can't fight it. It is bigger than us.

-- Cameron (pennihold@directcon.net), November 12, 2001.