Serious Question About Continued Trade with Chinagreenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread |
Have you seen the news reports about China now testing nuclear weapons. (missiles) Our Mayor had a special radio report about the test last week and the "Real Threat" China is.
What do you think? Is China our enemy? If so why do we keep buying stuff from them?
CHINA said they had missiles pointed at the US so why dont we do something about it?
OK I'll hush I just get worked up when the USA acts like a coward nation. (sorry)
-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 13, 2000
What do you want to do, blow them to hell and back because they have a few missiles. What about Russia whom sill has hundreds and probably thousands in their arsenal. Do you think it is OK to only pick on those that are much, much weaker than you? If we were to go to war every time someone threatens us, we would become pariahs the of the world (if we are not already). Merry Christmas and Peace to the World?
-- JLS in NW AZ (stalkingbull007@AOL.com), December 13, 2000.
Don't you think we have maybe a hundred or so missles aimed at them? We have done this for a long time. Actually if we had left Yugoslavia alone and not bombed the Chinese Embassy they might not think we are trying to take over the world.Weather you like it or not we need their markets for our products. I know people that have traveled over there and seen programs that took place there. It is a nice country with a lot of history. Most of it intervention by other nations. Many of which belong to NATO.They have a right to their own government the same as we do. If someone killed your people how would you feel. We had no right to even be bombing in that area in the first place.Also Tiawan belongs to them and guess who is causing trouble in that area. If you said the US you win. Since the English, French and Americans tried to take them over and rule them, I'm surprised they tolerate us as much as they do.
-- Nick (wildheart@ekyol.com), December 13, 2000.
Hi Ken,You think our military DOESN'T have every major Chinese city and military installation targeted? Of course they do. They can dial in the coordinates and hit the firing button in a matter of minutes. The Chinese saber rattling doesn't bother me. Just showing their oats. I guess in their case they're showing their rice :). I'm willing to bet that they have better control of their warheads than the Russians do. So, as long as we keep buying their stuff, they won't get so excited. It's power politics. That's what the big boys play. And China wants to be one of the big boys. So, fine. Let 'em play.
Besides, I'm corresponding with a third grade teacher in Shanghai who is collecting our "state" quarters for her class as part of her geography lessons. Great idea. At least, don't start shooting until the collection is complete.
(:raig
-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), December 13, 2000.
Kenneth, If you really want to get upset check out www.gertzfile.com. Find out what the Chinese are really up to. The one thing to keep in mind is that even if their weapons are not up to the capability of ours (which I doubt) they have millions of expendable people that will be sacrificed in the event of a conflict with us. Have you ever thought of how many military personnel could fit into an oil tanker? To sail into one of our ports? Through the Chinese controlled Panama Canal? I think about this stuff all the time, and try not to buy "made in China" but it is difficult. Mary
-- Mary in East TN (barnwood@preferred.com), December 13, 2000.
Yes, Ken. China is our enemy, and they have already told us that if we act like we are defending Taiwan, then they will blow away the major cities on our western seaboard. They now have the capibility to do this, thanks in part to technology that the Clinton administration has allowed to be sold to them. One wonders if the Chinese contributions to Democratic presidential campaigns (the last time Clinton ran) had something to do with the sales, and the disapearances of "sensitive" information (with a trail that led to China).As for buying Chinese...I have been thinking about this. Since I don't very often buy things at full price, I don't think that the Chinese are making much money off of me. But there is NO doubt that a BUNCH of stuff in our house came from there. Crud, I was shocked when I got a closer look at the package of fish fillets that I pulled out of the freezer the other day. The FISH was from China! The leather work boots that I bought for $12.00 on K-Mart clearance and am wearing now are from China. A LOT of our clothing is from there (but I buy most of it at yard and thrift sales, so the Chinese don't profit too much there0. But the stuff is everywhere, and made in sweatshops by mostly slave labor. It has started to bother me, and I wonder what to do about it.
-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), December 13, 2000.
In the early years of Clinton, he, Russia and China agreed to point their missiles elsewhere. Clinton claimed the missiles could be re- aimed within minutes. According to friends who worked at the missile silos in North Dakota, it can take several hours, if not days to reset the coordinates for those things. Clinton also dismantled quite a few of them. How long do you think it would take to transport all the components to one site and call up those veterans who know how to assemble them?China owns Taiwan? Perhaps we need to read real history about Formosa and Chan Kai Shek (sp?), not the revisionist history pushed upon students in public schools. Oh sorry, high school history probably doesn't even go that deep.
So does China also own Tibet and Mongolia?
-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), December 13, 2000.
Yes, China does hate us. They hate Christians even more than us. I read a few days ago that they (the Chinese gov't) bombed and/or burned 400+ non-state churches in one province.....sounds like a bunch of Wacos.China has a plan and they are sticking to it, we on the other hand are falling fast asleep.
-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 14, 2000.
I have worked for a japanese family [ on a azalia farm] and a chinese gentleman[landscape mant]. They are hard to get to know [so am I so we got along great]but once your are there friend they treat you like family.I dont think the problem is the chinese people I think the problem is with the chinese goverment. ANY goverment which uses students as traction for there tanks I have to be suspicious of.
-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), December 14, 2000.
Hear, hear, Kathy. My beef is with the Chinese gov't. I can't imagine that it's citizens are hapy about enforced family size (sometimes, forced abortions); or the killing of student activists at Tienemen (Sp?) square, or practically slave conditions in factories. And it isn't just Christians that are being persectued; there are other religious groups that are the recipients of the Chinese gov'ts "attention." What people WOULD be happy about that? And I cut my baby Christian teeth on the writings of Watchman Nee. Anyone out there remember him?
-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), December 14, 2000.
First Off I want to say Thank You for your responses. I'm glad we can have a discussion. On some of the other BB's I go its often chaos.I read a book that states that in China if a family has a baby girl the government encourages them to kill it. In fact if its a second girl they can make the family kill her. That sends waves through my system.
No jLS I'm not advocating we bomb them. If I had a true 100% SOLUTION i'D GET IT IN politicians hands and let them take credit for it.
My wife has started watching the Made In: labels. If it says china and we can do without it she skips it.
One thought Please do not lump the Chinese with the Japaniese I've had no bad experiences with Japaniese> The Japan culture is a lot different than the chiniese.
Thanks for listening and for talking about this.
-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 14, 2000.
This is very un PC but I am going to point it out anyway. The problem IS indeed with the Chinese government, BUT the people of China are the ones who let that government continue, so they do have some culpability as well. I certainly have empathy for them, but they need to join together and take their government out if they find it nearly as abhorrent as most of us seem to.
-- Doreen (animalwaitresss@excite.com), December 15, 2000.
It is not about China. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. China probably has orders to have missiles pointed at the U.S.. Just as the U.S. has orders to have missiles pointed back at them. Niether will be used, but sometimes talked about.The occupants of both countries and many others are after all only slaves. Converting natural resources into cash (that's MONEY) for the benefit of the few hundred eliete that own everyone, and everything that they will ever hope to produce.
I wonder where the Chinese got the missile technology that enables them to point milliles at us anyway. Did not the current outgoing U.S presidential administration just hand it over to them? Will there be some "favors" in the future for this "kindness" on the part of our leaders. Isn't it really "all about money". The age old measure of money is all about how many slaves that you own.
It looks to me like "self sufficient living" is becoming more and more valuable every day.
-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), December 15, 2000.
There are no "winners" in ANY type of nuclear conflict, this is all a giant lesson in futility, when will we "wake up" and fully realize this!!! Perhaps when a woman is in a position of political power in this country will nuclear disarmament really happen. Annie in SE OH.
-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), December 15, 2000.
Yikes, better get to building those bombshelters. You think men are bad? And women are better? As tho women are somehow endowed with greater wisdom or better peacemaking abilities?! He-He, I'm thinking of all the daughter and mother-in-laws of the world, chuckle.....how come sons and father-in-laws don't have the same reputation?No thanks, I love women (I are one, my mother is one, my daughter is one....) but give me a man who is in a position to blow up things anyday, over a woman.
BTW, I also agree with the comment Doreen made.
-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), December 15, 2000.
I have to jump in here and add to/correct something Ken said. The Chinese do not encourage any of their people to kill their children, boy or girl. The Chinese have a one-child policy. Many folks there want a boy because a boy stays with the family and is support in old age. A girl goes to live with the husband's family and cannot support her parents. No social security there. In rural families a boy is almost necessary. That is why some families give up their girls at birth. Many women leave their babies in a crowded safe place where they are sure to be found quickly. And yes, it has happened that some women or men kill their girl children, but this is rare. The government does enforce birth control and abortions. I know all this because my daughter is adopted from China. Her birth mom left her in a safe place for someone to find. When we were in China, we noticed that the people there just love their children. It is obvious that this law they are burdened with is awful to them, and they want more children. The people we met in China doted on my daughter, and were happy she was going to America where she will have a good life. These people are just like us, they want a peaceful and quiet life. It's just too bad they have a rotten, evil government. Mary
-- Mary Fraley (kmfraley@orwell.net), December 15, 2000.
I tend to view the Chinese government as a tough love parent. They know their resources are not unlimited and just about every piece of ground which can be under cultivation is. They have to keep their population under control to avoid the problems, such as widespread famines, which come from overpopulation if there is the least bump in food production.If the people were to rise and overthrow their government what would replace it? I predict they would have mass starvation within just a couple of years. The U.S. imports food now. I rather doubt all the rest of the world combined could feed their billion or so people.
Mentioned have been birth control and abortions. What about vasectimes (spelling?) for men. Years ago I saw a program to where in India mobile clinics offered the inducement of a free radio. Perhaps this is something the U.S. should consider. Offer a new car as an incentive, since it would be cheaper for the U.S. government in the long-run. (And, yes, I had myself done years ago.)
Chinese scientists and engineers are at least as capable as ours. The U.S. created inter-continental missile in what, the 50's? Think it would take the Chinese 50 years to do the same? Missile and warhead technology is pretty standard stuff. It is the guidance system to put it on target which counts.
Someone mentioned the dismantling of U.S. missiles and silos under disarmament agreements. That is what happens. The silos are destroyed or made totally inoperative, as are the missiles. I have been told by the guy who actually did it the guidance systems are soaked in liquid nitrogen until they become brittle and are then placed under a large powerhammer, which smashes them into pieces which fit through a screen of a certain size. Remember also, land- based missiles are but one leg of the nuclear triad, with submarines and bombers as the other two. Maybe they could shoot down bombers, but as far as I know they do not have the technology to hunt down and destroy our submarines.
No one has mentioned North Korea. It seems a classic example of what can happen when an inept goverment meets an unkind Mother Nature.
-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 16, 2000.
Ken, I take EXTREME exception to so much of what you just said that I have to take a break before I respond!
-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 16, 2000.
Doreen:Before you answer try not to try to force our Western culture, ideals or religion on another society. They had an advanced society when Europe was just coming out of the iron/stone ages and the U.S. wouldn't even exist for many, many years. Case in point. When you are given a death sentence, you are lead out to a field and the sentence is carried out, although, conceding to Western pressure, they now are starting to use lethal injections. No appeals. There ain't no Chinese Civil Liberties Union. It is their culture and I don't have a problem with it.
-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 16, 2000.
Okay Ken. I've got a hot cup of tea and my fuzzy bunny slippers on and I am feeling pretty relaxed...I realize that China had a civilization long before Europe came into it's own, but they weren't a Communist nation with nuclear missles (aimed at us) that our esteemed government had given most favored nation trading status to. They weren't a nation that could give nuclear missle technology to other nations that hate us and would like to see us glowing, and STILL maintain most favored nation trading status.They just found a canyon in China two years ago that is almost the size of the Grand canyon. They aren't killing babies because they don't have the wherewithal to figure out how to feed them. They are building an Army to kill you and I. You generally need men to do that, us females tend to get a woozy about blasting someone in the face with an SKS when they haven't even insulted us personally. (don't want to offend, but I see this as being a general truth)
The entire objective of Communism is to destroy everything that is near and dear to traditional American principles. This is Communism in practice as opposed to theory. The Government and several powerful people in China control literally everything. The people themselves don't benefit much themselves from our money.
This is really long, but it is extremely well put and it's over two years old! Amazingly enough, it's from a Ca representative, as well.
may 8 Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA)
By Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) This is one of the most disturbing issues with which I have had to deal since being elected to Congress 10 years ago. The facts are still being uncovered, but it appears now that America has been betrayed, betrayed by several large, high-technology corporations and by the Clinton administration. I do not use the word `betrayal' lightly. When Bill Clinton was elected President of the United States 5 years ago, we could confront wrongdoing on the part of the Red Chinese with little direct threat to the United States. This, unfortunately, is no longer true. In the future, should we confront the Communist Chinese over an act of aggression, perhaps against our friends in the Philippines, for example, where the Communist Chinese are trying to occupy some of the Spratly Islands by force, and the Filipinos have no ability to defend themselves, but in the future when the Communist Chinese commit these acts of aggression, they will have the capability of launching a missile from the mainland of China and landing a nuclear weapon in the United States. This puts every man, woman and child in our country in jeopardy. How is it that the Communist Chinese have improved their missile capability? You better sit down, Mr. and Mrs. America, because it appears that several large American high-tech corporations, in collusion with the Clinton administration, provided technology to the Communist Chinese that perfected their nuclear weapons delivery systems, and you can read that, `missiles.' American technology is being used to upgrade the capability of the Communist Chinese to launch a nuclear strike against the United States. It takes the wind right out of your lungs, does it not, just to think about it? If this is true, it is the worst technological betrayal of the American people since the Rosenbergs. This is nothing less than a catastrophe for the security of our Nation and the safety of our people. So if it did happen, which there seems to be evidence that it did, how did such a thing happen? First and foremost, pushed by corporate leaders eager for profit and liberal foreign policy polls, America has been walking down a dangerous and counterproductive road with the Communist Chinese for a decade. Yes, reasonable people can disagree. Even I was optimistic before Tiananmen Square. I was optimistic that China would evolve out of its Communist dictatorship and perhaps evolve into a freer society, perhaps even a democracy. And, in the late 1980s, when there were clear signs of an evolution in the right direction, a policy of goodwill, sincerity, and on building the Chinese economy through trade made sense, even if it meant at the time that the trade between us was a little bit unequal; and was unequal, certainly. But all that changed, Mr. Speaker, on June 4, 1989. What happened in Tiananmen Square was not just a massacre of several thousand unarmed Chinese students, it was an internal declaration of war against democracy and human rights and all of those decent people in China who advocate more humane and democratic government. All those who claim that doing business with China will make that country a more open and free society have been proven wrong. That trend, which we saw in the 1980s, was reversed. That trend for the last 10 years has been in the opposite direction, even as massive investments have been made in these last 10 years since Tiananmen Square in China. Ten years ago there was a reform movement in China. There was hope for an evolution in Tibet; there was the growth of Christianity. Today, all the reformers have fled or are in jail or are dead. Christians, Tibetan Buddhists, Muslims, all of the religious believers alike, are being persecuted with increased and renewed intensity. Even as the Chinese regime shoots its prisoners and sells their body organs in order to make money from this gruesome task, during these last 10 years, the investment in China from the United States has accelerated, even as we continue to go in the wrong direction, totally disproving this theory that all we have to do is trade with these people. It is the idea that if we just trade more with Hitler and interact with him socially, we are going to make Hitler into a nice, fuzzy, warm liberal instead of a Nazi. That, of course, was stupid. Hitler and Germany at that time, as well as Italy, were economically advanced countries. The same with Japan, an economically advanced country, yet they had vicious dictatorships in the 1930s. Our businessmen traded with these people. They did their best to establish economic ties with these people. Yet the Japanese militarists, the Nazis and the Fascists, they just drove their tanks right over the hopes and dreams of all of these people who were wishful thinkers. China today is the worst abuser of human rights on this planet. It maintains a 30 to 40 percent tariff on all U.S. imports, while at the same time the Chinese consumer products are flooded into our market with a 3 or 4 percent tariff. So here we have a country that is the worst human rights abuser in the world today, a dictatorship, a country that is belligerent towards the West and has been giving technological secrets to the Iranians and other terrorist states, yet we have given this country the right to import with a flood of imports into the United States of America consumer goods at only 3 or 4 percent tariffs, while their tariffs are 30 or 40 percent at times on American goods. Who negotiated that treaty? Who was watching out for our interests? The Communist Chinese continue to enjoy a $40 to $50 billion trade surplus with us because of this unfair trade relationship. No wonder, when we permit that to keep an unfair trade relationship, to keep a situation where they can charge us tariffs on our goods and they get to flood theirs in here and they make $50 billion a year, no wonder they do not take us seriously when our leaders talk about human rights. They must know that when Bill Clinton, as President of the United States, is talking about human rights, he is only doing it for domestic consumption, because if he really meant it, he would do something that would threaten this $50 billion trade surplus that they have. And what are they doing with their trade surplus? They are building weapons. They are building ships and missiles and military weapons that will someday threaten the United States, and in fact, their missiles already threaten the United States. President Clinton, reversing an election commitment to oppose Most Favored Nation status for China has strenuously pushed Most Favored Nation status for China every year, even though supposedly, we are concerned about human rights and the human rights situation like in Tibet and elsewhere continues to decline. Well, what does MFN really mean, by the way, if there are a lot of free traders in this country who believe that if one is against Most Favored Nation status for China, that means one is against any trade with China? Well, that is just not the truth. That is not what Most Favored Nation status is about. People are perfectly free to trade with a country that does not have Most Favored Nation status. In fact, one is free to do so, but one has to do so at one's own risk. What Most Favored Nation status means is that the taxpayers of this country will guarantee investments made in Communist China and in other countries like Vietnam where we just gave them Most Favored Nation status through the Export-Import Bank or the World Bank or OPIC or many of these other institutions that were set up to utilize American taxpayers' dollars, the IMF and others, so that investments could be made in these brutal dictatorships to build factories there, and they would be guaranteed or they would be subsidized in some way by American tax dollars. That is what goes on when we are talking about Most Favored Nation status. This, in itself, is a betrayal of the American people, using our tax dollars to set up companies overseas that will put our own people out of work. Because those companies then produce products with slave labor, and they are brought into the United States, and they put out of work the same people who pay the taxes to secure the investment made overseas. That is an economic betrayal of our people. Now, this result that our country is in jeopardy today from nuclear weapons is also a result of the blurring of the distinctions that permitted us to have this sort of crazy, unfair trading relationship with a dictatorship. And with us providing taxpayer guarantees for people who want to invest in dictatorships, there has been a blurring in our country of the distinction between what is a free country and what is a dictatorship. Every time we turn around, when we try to condemn Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin, we have these people, and I might say they are modern-day people who are equivalent of the Hitlers and Stalins, we have people who say, yes, but you have race problems in the United States; or how about this or this or that unjustice that exists in this or that democratic country? As if there is no difference between democratic countries and dictatorships. Well, there is a difference and we have our faults. But we are trying to do our best to correct them and we have made major strides in correcting our imperfections. But America at its most imperfect was better than any of these dictatorships and our President, of course, has blurred the distinction between right and wrong. What is morality? What is right and wrong? What is giving your word? These things today with the scandal going on in the White House, and I will not go into any of that because what I am talking about is far worse than that, but the distinctions of right and wrong have been blurred; of truth and honesty on one side, of lies and dishonesty on the other. There is a difference. When people talked about character, that is what we talked about. At the same time, when someone gives their word and pledges they are against Most Favored Nations status for China and asks for a vote and then reverses himself immediately after the election, this creates something in people's mind that says even the President of the United States when giving his word it means nothing. At the same time that we have had these moral distinctions blurred we have been barraged in our country with talk about a global economy. We are not just talking about our economy anymore and the well-being of our people, we are talking about a global economy, about a new world order, and about multinational corporations. Not companies, not American companies anymore. Not what is good for the American people, not policies aimed at building our standard of living, but instead the idea that we have got to go out and work for a global economy. We have got to have a system of stability around the world with economic interchange that the net result is the United States ends up propping up dictators and ends up creating stability for people who live under tyranny, which to them means keeping their tyrants in power and establishing trade relationships that provide those tyrants with weapons and the means to oppress their own people. All of this has blurred, all of these things have blurred the concept of patriotism and loyalty and truth and justice and all of those things that America is supposed to stand for. But, of course, that is old fashioned and to stand for things, they say there is a single standard instead of a subjective standard, that is passe. Well, there are consequences to the blurring of morality. There are consequences to telling people there is no right and wrong and anyone can make an agreement and break it. There is a consequence when the level of patriotism in our society declines. This is what has happened when American businessmen, some very high-tech businessmen, have gone overseas and made decisions that put not only our economic well-being at risk, not only selling out the economic well-being of the American working people who they tax in order to get a guarantee to build their factory in Vietnam or some other dictatorship in China. But some businessmen now we find are making decisions that are putting all of us at risk in order to bolster a business relationship with a communist dictatorship. This story, it is a sad story, and here we are in a different world in which every man, woman, and child may well be in greater risk of nuclear annihilation because American technology was taken by an American citizen and given to the communist Chinese regime. This story started a few years ago which several American aerospace companies pushed to have permission to launch their satellites on foreign rockets. This happened while I was a Member of Congress, and the arguments these companies made were legitimate arguments. They said that there were not enough launchers in the United States. Furthermore, if their satellites could be sold, some countries would demand that their satellites be launched on otherrockets, cheaper rockets than could be afforded in the United States. Well, knowing the different rockets and missiles that were available around the world, I agreed with that strategy, because our satellite industry is just as important as our missile industry in southern California. It is part of our aerospace industry. And satellite producers hire many, many thousands of people, just as rocket builders do. And so we could not jeopardize our satellite industry, which is in the forefront of technological development, could not sacrifice them because our rocket people were being left behind somewhat. And in fact in the years since then, I might add as chairman of the Subcommittee on Space, I have moved to ensure, and we had a pretty wide coalition behind this, to make sure that America's space delivery systems will outcompete any in the world and we are well on our way to developing new space transportation systems that will leave the old systems and our competitors overseas in the dust. But that is a few years down the road. But even then I might add when our systems are better, we will still be in jeopardy from a missile launched from China at the United States. Later, after the satellite manufacturers were able to receive the permission to launch on foreign launchers, they went to what is called the Long March Rocket in China when they wanted to launch in China. The Long March Rocket is the mainstay of the Chinese rocket industry. Unfortunately, the Long March Rocket blew up often. The Long March Rocket was being looked at by the satellite manufacturers of the United States as a way to put up their satellites, but this Long March Rocket blew up; three out of four Long March Rockets ended up blowing up. In fact it blew up more than it went up, as we like to say. And the insurance cost on putting a satellite that costs tens of millions of dollars on a Long March Rocket became prohibitive because the satellite makers could see that the chances of it blowing up were rather high. Those of us in Congress who approved of the idea of launching on foreign rockets understood this when that approval was given. There was never a hint anywhere along the line or in any legislation or by anyone that an American company had a right to transfer technology to the Chinese in order to improve the Long March Rocket. No one had suggested that. Everyone knew that was crossing the line. Yet American satellite manufacturers were faced with that dilemma. If they did not use the Long March, they would have to use the American rockets. The Chinese government supposedly did not want the American rockets and there were not enough American rockets around supposedly. But in my district they make the Delta rocket system. The only thing we are really talking about here is that if the Long March could not be used because it was too unreliable, it meant the cost of a launch would go up because there were more launches bidding for fewer missiles. Well, instead of letting the cost go up, what it appears is that at least one, if not more, U.S. aerospace firms, instead of going to the United States and hiring American aerospace workers to do the job and to provide the rockets, these American companies passed on to the communist Chinese the know-how and the technology they needed to perfect their Long March Rocket. Let us make this very clear. The alternative was using rockets that were produced in the United States, it would cost more money because American aerospace workers have a better product. They work harder. They are more equipped and they have got a better product. But yet instead of choosing the better product built by American workers at a higher price, these several companies, or maybe even just one company, but Americans, it appears may have chosen to perfect the Long March Chinese rocket rather than going with the Americans. Thus, by making the Long March a more reliable space transportation system, these Americans at the same time were making the Chinese more capable of launching and delivering a nuclear weapon to the United States. The Long March Rocket has a history of misfires, explosions and unreliability. Today it is all different. Today there is an advertisement being run by the Chinese in Space News saying use the Long March Rocket and bragging about its reliability. That did not just happen. It was not a gift of the Tooth Fairy that permitted the Chinese to perfect the Long March. They did not just think of it because a ray of wisdom just shone down into their heads from above. The Chinese engineers and rocket builders were not struck with some brilliance that they did not have before. What likely happened was an American, probably an American from a large American aerospace company, helped them upgrade their missile even though that left the people of the United States vulnerable to an attack by a communist Chinese nuclear weapon. I cannot think of anything more despicable. I cannot think of anything in my 10 years in this office, or even before when I was a journalist, that matches this. I cannot believe that an American would dream of doing such a thing. But we have to live with that now because the Chinese rockets now, there is a new generation coming out and we can guess whether or not they are equipped with this same new technology that was transmitted to the Long March. We do not know, but we are going to get what really went on, who made this transfer, we are going to get to the bottom of it. Hughes Electronics denies that it transferred any technology to the communist Chinese, even though Hughes Electronics is involved with launching satellites over China and was involved with one satellite that blew up on top of a rocket. So Hughes Electronics totally denies this and we have to give them the benefit of the doubt until we find out otherwise. Loral Space, however, it appears that they may well have been deeply engaged in this situation. Loral may have, because Loral makes satellites and was involved in this satellite launch in China that blew up, Loral engineers may have just rolled up their sleeves and just looked at it and said to themselves, well, this is an engineering project and looked at it as just an engineering project to help the Chinese and not even thinking about the national security interests of the United States. I hope that no one at Loral thought of the national security interest of the United States when this was done. Because if they did, if it even crossed their mind that the people of the United States might be put in jeopardy, what they were saying to themselves was, to hell with the people of the United States, I do not care if every man, woman and child is in greater danger because of what I am doing. We are going to make sure this project is successful and we are going to make our profit on this Chinese satellite missile deal. So I hope they did not think that way. I hope it never crossed their mind. I hope they just coldly and calculatedly went forward on an engineering project. Of course, and we can be happy for this, this did not escape the attention of American watchdogs when they noticed that the Chinese were being given new technology that enhanced their capability to deliver nuclear weapons. I mean, after all, we have got some Americans whose job it is to see that this does not happen in our government. Well, this is where the story gets really ugly. It even gets worse if we think it could get worse. It appears that an investigation into this illegal transfer was thwarted when permission was granted by the President, that is President Bill Clinton, to export some of the technology in question. Again, we have got to confirm this. We have got to see whether or not that is actually the case. But it appears in short, that our President may have knocked the legs out from under an investigation of this high tech betrayal by an action that, in effect, was retroactively permitting the transfer of this technology by saying that it no longer is illegal to transfer the technology. Again, this has to be confirmed. We need to know if this can be verified or not. Whether it is verified or not or whether Motorola or Loral or any other company transferred this technology, we are going to have to find that out, too. This is something that calls out for clarification. This President may have made it impossible for our people to intervene to prevent the Chinese in the future, prevent them from acts of aggression without risking our entire population. What are we talking about now? The risk to our population. A Chinese missile system before that was antiquated and blew up on the launch pad equipped with American technology, equipped with American guidance systems, control technology, staged separation technology, and even perhaps MIRV technology. MIRV technology. Do you know what MIRV technology is? MIRV technology is a rocket that has gone into space, and our aerospace companies may have said we can get it into space, but it cannot spit out a satellite. So we are going to give them an MIRV technology that, once the rocket is in space, it can spit out the satellite. MIRV technology. It is exactly the same technology that permits a rocket to go into space and spit out a nuclear warhead; not just one nuclear warhead, but multiple nuclear warheads. This is technology built in the United States of America for our protection and to deter war for the Soviet during the Cold War, that may have been given to the Communist Chinese to facilitate the launching of satellites for profit by that company; and, in the end, we find out that it has given them the ability not just to launch the missile to the United States, but launch a missile carrying multiple warheads. We need to know this. One engineer described it to me. He said, Congressman, the Chinese missiles were going up, this launch was going up, and it would explode. It would explode because they did not have the stage separation technology they needed. I looked at him, and I said, you mean it would go up and just explode before it goes into space? He said, that is right. And I looked at him and said, Red Chinese rockets exploding is a good thing. We like that. We like Communist rockets to explode before they get to their target. But I guess it is something that just no one had thought of in these companies, or whoever was giving this technology. Now, this is the same administration, I might add, that thwarted the investigation into this or may have thwarted it; we will see about that. This is the same administration that thwarts our efforts right now to build a missile defense shield so that the United States can shoot down a missile that is launched at our country. The Republicans and I do not want to be political here about it, because there are some Democrats that support an SDI missile shield as well, but Republicans have been trying to do this. This is Reagan's vision: Let us not build more missiles that carry rockets, that carry nuclear weapons. Let us build a system instead, use the money that will build the system that will protect us against incoming rockets and incoming nuclear weapons. That makes all the sense in the world. Let us buy a shield rather than buy a sword. Now it is even more so that we even have a greater chance; it took a little longer than Ronald Reagan thought to build this thing, but we now have the capability. If the Chinese would launch a rocket towards us, we would then have a way of stopping that rocket. Today, because this administration has put its thumb down on missile defense time and time again, we do not have the ability to protect ourselves should the Chinese launch a rocket toward the United States. To put this in perspective, there was a conflict about a year and a half ago in the Taiwan Straits, and the Red Chinese were shooting short-range rockets in the area of Taiwan. We took several carrier battle groups down there. A noted Chinese general commented, well, the American people are someday going to have to decide between Taiwan and Los Angeles. His meaning was clear. That statement was never repudiated by the Chinese Government. They could launch one rocket to the United States and blow up Los Angeles, kill millions of people. We do not have the ability to stop that now because the President will not let us build an adequate missile shield. Do you know what we would have to do? We would be faced with a choice of either retaliating and murdering, through a nuclear attack, millions of hinese, most of whom love, probably love the United States and think of us as a good country, because their Chinese leadership is a dictatorship and holds them in a grip of tyranny. We would end up having to kill, we are going to wipe out Shanghai and all those millions of people because Los Angeles was bombed? That would be our option? That is a terrible option. Number one, the Chinese should not have the capability of hitting us with nuclear weapons. But number two, we should have a shield so that we can defend ourselves so we are not faced with that choice. Yet, the same administration that thwarts our investigation into the Communist Chinese, perfection of Communist Chinese rockets, now prevents us from building a system to protect ourselves against missiles. We are going to face this situation, and this issue will grow and will do nothing but grow until we get these questions answered. But it should not escape the attention of the American people that President Clinton will be visiting Communist China, will be visiting Communist China at the end of June. What has just been announced by the White House? What have they just announced that the President is going to bring to China and offer to the Communist Chinese dictatorship? He is going to offer them a new package of space cooperation. Well, my colleagues, I am the chairman of the Subcommittee on Space in this body. It is my job to oversee American space policy. There is nothing that the United States will benefit from by establishing a cooperative relationship with China over space. They have nothing to share with us. I believe that this is nothing more than an attempt by this administration to hide the fact that there has been even more technological transfers to the Communist Chinese that we do not even know about now. Why else are we going to China to cooperate with them in space? Space missiles, missiles launched that will launch satellites, can launch nuclear weapons to the United States. Who paid for this technology, by the way, that the President wants to share with the Communist Chinese? Who invented it? The American people are being betrayed when their tax dollars are being used to build competing companies overseas. That is to say, the same truth as they are being betrayed when we give somebody who hates us a missile or technology for a missile that is aimed at us and armed with a nuclear weapon. May of '98
-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 16, 2000.
Oh wow! Comments by a relatively junior member of the House of Representatives no doubt delivered, at least in part, after the House was done for business for the day. You know, when C-SPAN records the speech, but you can see no one is listening, and they reserve the right to amplify their comments in the Congressional Record. As I recall the death toll in the student uprising was well under 100, not thousands as indicted. I suspect there are those in the northern half of CA which would gladly trade Los Angeles for Taiwan.
-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 16, 2000.
Geez, Ken, the guy is a member of the party YOU endorse. Tienaman Square did indeed result in the deaths of over a thousand people. Did you happen to forget about all of the resistors who were summarily rounded up and sent off to the death camps. Maybe they made some little Disney figurines for us before they had their organs harvested for the preservation of someone else's life and the escalation of the Chinese Army.Truth is truth regardless of the seniority level of a representative.
-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 17, 2000.
Doreen:Was just watching a CNN news program on Bush's starting to form his White House team. At the end of the program they got around to other countries perceptions of his administration. One guest had just returned from an extended stay in China. He said 80-90% of the leaders he met there were strongly in favor of Gore since they thought he would be far easier to deal with on issues such as trade and human rights than Bush.
Bush has now nominated (Powell) or named four high-level positions. Two Afro-Americans, two women and one Latino.
-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 17, 2000.
Okay. ? I am sure the Chinese are disappointed as the Clinton-Gore administration was squarely in their pocket and they must think they lost out on a good business relationship. they are also probably disappointed at losing their investments in Gore....but what was it you were trying to point out to me?If you think I was more in favor of Gore than Bush, please let me say that isn't the case. I am firmly more in favor of one of the three presidential candidates that would actually follow the Constitution and none of them were even close to 5%.
-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 17, 2000.
According to an 12/19/00 Associated Press article, this is the Chinese population control policy: In urban areas, one child per household. In rural areas, two per household, providing the first was a girl. Ethnic minorities are allowed broader exemptions. Women are encouraged to have the baby at a later age. The government does not condone the killing of girl babies, nor forced abortions or sterilization of women.From a TV program I saw a couple of years ago, couple who violate the policy face increasing severe penalities, such as loss of jobs.
Is it working? Average family size has shrunk to 3.6 people per family from more than 4.8 in the early 1970s.
-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 19, 2000.
Ducks as he enters the forum...LOL Ok a friend of mine in California has pointed out something I had not considered. Here it is..China is poised a knife edge much like Germany was right before Hitler. If we stop buying & selling goods to them their economic platform would collasp. Then a savy vulture might encourage them to do much more than rattle their armor. So for now I will agree that trade is a necessary thing.
-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 19, 2000.
That was funny! ummmm, so we allow ourselves to continue to support that which has threatend to and still wants to destroy us? Just cause we are afraid if we stop supporting them they will try to destroy us? Let's hear it for foresight, and reason and logic and the ability to make our own useless goods! We are not too bright, are we?
-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 19, 2000.
Hey Ken, I mean "we" as a nation; not doing a hack job here.Sorry if it wasn't clear.
-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 20, 2000.
China is now more powerful than ever. They are spreading there government all over the world and are isolating the Americans. Unfortunally, it is all because of Clinton. Do you know that he had many silos not only shut down, but filled with cement. Most americans don't really care because they worry about their own lives and not about the big picture. They now have a Blue Water Navy and are spreading even to South America now.Also the have bases in Cuba. They have satellites that are being upgraded everyday and soon will be able to knock-out our satellites. As for the trading, they do make a lot of stuff for us and we shouldnt stop unless they keep spreading closer to us. I do my homework and I know what I'm talking about.
-- steve (NauticaSJM@aol.com), April 16, 2001.
The United States is really not looking that good with this proposed ABM treaty business. China is in my eyes doing a lot of thing to prepare for the future. Russia looks like it needs a ally in the Asian area. So, China looks eager to join some form of military alliance with the Russians. China with a few nuclear missiles and Russia with thousands both countries are posed to counter NATO and the United States in the UN securtiy concil. Both nations have common interests anyway in Central Asia with the Taliban. And both are trying to stop the spread of Ismalic fundelmentalists. The United States near future looks grim, with China posed to become a major world power in at least 25 years with a matching economy, Russia becoming a partner with China in. The European Union spreading and looking like it will become a form of central government. Latin America trying to distance itself from the United States economically, and politicallly. The United States will no doubt be a premier force militarially and economically but it won't be the only one the game just got bigger.
-- Johansan Katz (Nicouru@hotmail.com), May 10, 2001.