This might seem to be obvious to you, but I have trouble understanding why we as a culture, insist on drinking cow, goat, or sheep's milk? It is not a natural food for us, it is only natural for the baby cow, goat, or sheep that produced it, and I'm wondering if this mindset has a lot to do with much of the health problems in this country, ie., high blood pressure, high cholesterol levels, heart attack, stroke, cancer, you get the idea! The vast majority of other countries find this practice abhorrent, so I wondered where this idea came from, and why we still practice it if it is so unhealthy. I cannot eat dairy at all anymore, so my answer is moot. This should be interesting..... Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 02, 2000

Answers

I don't drink milk, but I haven't given up cheese, or the occasional ice cream, though I should.

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), November 03, 2000.

I don't agree at all that 'the vast majority of other countries find this practice abhorrent'. Quite the contrary, I would submit that most cultures throughout history have partaken of the milk of mammals.What is unnatural is what modern western society has DONE to milk,to make it unhealthy. I too believe grocery-store milk probably contributes to heart disease, cancer, and all the other things you mentioned, but it is because it has been adulterated by pasteurizing, homogenizing,separating, and the addition of synthetic vitamin D --- not to mention how commercial cows are raised and fed, that is the culprit.Homogenizing in particular seems to be harmful to arteries; the fat molecules apparently do not assimilate properly because the chemical structure is changed. I have know many people who could not tolerate dairy products until they tried raw real milk, and they digest it perfectly well. In its natural state, it is a fantastically nutritious food, in all of its myriad forms. JUst another example of how wonderful the natural world is, and how we manage to mess it up. EArthmama

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

Annie, a better argeument would be that we are the only mammal that continues to drink milk after we are weaned. And I do agree with Earth that it is the hormones fed to cows, the synthetic additives and homogenized, sterilized milk that is the problem. As close to a natural diet is of course the healthiest. Damn were out of Hersheys for our milk in the morning :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 03, 2000.

Vicki, you are absolutely right about the weaning part! But, Earthmomma, what other culture on Earth partakes of milk on a daily basis, occasional is one thing, but Americans drink more milk than water, it seems like! I don't see how this could be healthy. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 03, 2000.

Well lets see,just to get started (I'm certain there are many many more examples): Most Spanish-speaking cultures drink or eat some type of milk--most commonly goats milk cheese or yogurt-like products, but sometimes from llama and horse and cattle. Many African tribes utilize milk as their main food; in fact there are two tribes, one is the Masai,who drink about a gallon and a half of milk a day, and have almost none of the diseases we have;and the other is the Samburu,who eat several hundred grams of fat a day, most of it in the form of cultured milk, the rest in meat, and almost no vegetables, and they too have low cholesterol, almost no heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity, arthritis, etc. The Hunzas that are always quoted as being the longest-lived people on earth partake of goats milk, as do the centenarians in the mountainous village in Russia made famous in the 70's. The Swiss have an age-old custom of their athletes preparing for competion by drinking several bowlsful of cream. Many Eastern European societies drink a form of kefir-like stuff daily, and some rural Asian cultures have long utilized sheep and goat milk in their normal diet.Its true some people just cannot metabolize milk protein, it has a lot to do with one's genetics too; but there are probably many who can if they have available the real thing, and in a more utilizable form. Butter and yougurt and cheese are much easier for most people to digest than fresh milk. Earthmama

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

The fact humans may be the only species to continue to drink milk after being weaned is simply a matter of access. In other species the female must wean last birthing cycle off-spring so she has milk for the new one(s). I don't normally keep calves for more than about seven months, but occasionally winter them over. Most cows will self- wean, but some don't. Having a 500 pound calf on one side and a 60 or so pound calf on the other doesn't work very well. Unless it is a really nice calf I want to separate for some reason, one or the other or both go. Even if separated out for several months, so lose their interest for milk while some don't.

Show me the cat who doesn't lap up milk if given the opportunity. Once a week my mother would stir up a raw egg in milk and give it to the dogs. They certainly seemed to enjoy it. Would adult goats or sheep drink milk if given the opporunity? I suspect so. Many a hog has been raised on supplements of surplus milk, skim milk from a creamery or whey.

There are simply too many variables to try to correlate general health problems to any one factor.

On the centurians in Russia, they have largely found out they were not as old as they said. Men of draft age would assume an older brother's identity to avoid being drafted. On the Huzans, other have speculated long lives are due to lifestyles, not necessary diet (including water directly from under glaciers with its fine particles of various minerals).

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 03, 2000.

HERE, HERE, EarthMama, I do know in Mexico they use goats milk mostly if available. We don't drink a lot of milk per-say I and two of my children were allergic to cows milk (from the store) but we can eat cheese, so we've never been accustomed to doing without drinking it. I got goats due to these allergies, for improving our overall heatlh, we didn't need the volumn cows give and because I've always favored those cute goats over cows. ( a childhood thing) We don't drink gallons a week like some but I cook a lot from scratch and use quite a bit that way, pancaked, cornbread, puddings etc.

-- Carol in Tx (cwaldrop@peoplescom.net), November 03, 2000.

I suspect that many drink milk for the calcium that it contains in hopes of strengthing their bones.

We had one or two milk cows on the farm as I was growing up, so I got my fill of milk. While I do try to keep powdered milk around to use in cooking, I havn't purchased a carton or jug of milk in several years.

-- Notforprint (Not@thekeyboard.com), November 03, 2000.

I love milk! Goats milk is good for you. Will cure almost any stomach problem too. Goat's milk also helps me keep the weight on, which I need. And strong bones. I have guzzled milk my whole life. I give Lily, my doe, a bit of milk after milking her and she loves it. My pony I bottle fed will still suck up a bowl of milk. My dogs love it and can't get enough. When you take milk away too early from animals is when you get problems. Milk is good for the stomach. Fast food is what is unhealthy in my opinion and causing so many of the problems. And soda pop.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 03, 2000.

It's a cultural thing, based on economic necessity originally. A lot of the US is descended from European immigrants, and our culture is based on their culture. And once you realize that the foods a culture eats is based on what they could produce and store over the long winter season, it's clear that milk and cheese were ideal foods for these folks, since the climate & topography did not allow for the easy production and storage of grains. Hilly grasslands is what northern Europe had, not plains suitable for grain, and ruminant animals eat and make lots of milk on good grazing. Surplus male animals could be butchered and eaten as meat, but it would not make good economic sense to butcher the females (since they created the next generation), and so they were milked, and cheese was made which could be stored for long periods (years even) against famine.

Anyway, it tasted good. And still does...

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), November 03, 2000.

When I went to nutritionist several years ago, she said that people can't get calcium from animal milk. I've heard that a few other places over the years. I don't know for sure if that's true or to what degree it may be true. I drink milk when I can get it from my friend's cow, which isn't very often. I like the real stuff, and I especially like cream:-]

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

Cindy, you're right, we do not metabolise calcium from any animal source well at all, vegetable sources are utilized much easier by the body. My Granfather was a dairy farmer his whole life, they used raw milk, grew all their own vegetables, and got plenty of exersise by being a farmer, and he died of heart disease at age 67, plus he had gout ( from too much animal protein in his diet) so bad he had to give up farming at 62. I worked for a leading cardiologist for 15 years and we had some very lively discussions about this topic, he used to think some animal products in our diet did no harm, he has had a heart attack and is recovering, and is really rethinking his position on a low fat diet being nessesary to eliminate/reduce heart disease, like 15% - 20% total fat. Since heart disease is the number one killer in this country, 5 times more people die of it than cancer, I just figured milk drinking, not so much cheese or milk product consumption, had a definite effect of contributing to this . Also, heart disease starts at birth, some autopsies of young children show significant hardening of the arteries from fat plaques at ages as young as one year. This question is posed just to make you realize that what we do without really thinking about it has significant effect on our lives, some that may not show up till later, like affter your first heart attack; a public service annoucement brought to you by, Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 03, 2000.

I LOVE ice cream!! That is my main source of milk. ;-)I am loving all this information on the origins of milk drinking!!

-- Cindy in OK (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

I only need a splash in my morning oatmeal.

-- Sandy (smd2@netzero.net), November 03, 2000.

People drink far less milk today than they have in the recent past. We're raising our children on carbonated soft drinks today & I'm not at all sure that's an improvement. But the fact is that most folks decline to add a drop of milk to their coffee for health reasons, and then stop off at the grocery for a quart of Ben & Jerry's ice cream. This makes sense to them, somehow.

And anyway, France, which has the highest per capita consumption of cheese in the world, has far less heart disease than the US does, so I wonder whether dairy products are indeed to blame.

As for calcium, it's not that the calcium in milk isn't utilized by humans, but that the overall high protein content of our diets in this culture interferes with calcium deposition in our bones, whether that calcium comes from milk or vegetables. Moderation, I would guess, is the key here.

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), November 03, 2000.

Why Annie......

Milk and Oreo cookies. An American institution. D*MN the cholesterol. Full Speed Ahead.

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), November 03, 2000.

I LOVE milk! Cow's or goat's. Cheese, yogurt, whey -- yum yum yum! If'n you don't like it, don't drink it, but it's not necessary to pronounce others "unnatural" because they do. High blood pressure & high cholesterol levels are caused by stress, as are heart attacks & stroke, and by being too fat (and "too fat" is different for different people), and too fat often is the result of a sedentary lifestyle with an overactive elbow. (I've often thought the simplest way to reduce weight would be elbow splints...) I think cancer is caused, again, by stress and by the chemicals in our food, environment, and, yes, milk, which is why I try to only drink organic milk. The drinking of milk is not "abhorrent" in most places. Some people don't digest it well, so they don't drink it.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), November 03, 2000.

Hi Annie, Here I go, being a general pain and disagreeing with you again! If we do not metabolize any calcium from animal foods, how would you explain the excellent health and bone structure of the many cultures who rely almost exlusively on animal products for their nutrition? This sounds like more info from the low-fat crowd, who like to attribute all health evils to animal foods. My huge extended family has almost entirely lived into their late eighties and nineties, and they were without exception generous partakers of animal protein every day of their long lives.My father, on the other hand, was put on a low-fat diet in the sixties, and although he is still alive, he has had four heart attacks, three by-passes, and so many other blockage-related surgeries I can't remember them all. As far as obtaining sufficient calcium from vegetable foods, this is the difficult thing for the body to do. Whole grains contain anti- nutrients that interfere with the absorption of minerals. Its true that as part of a deficient diet-caused imbalance, minerals even in milk products can be difficult to assimilate, but this I dont believe is a natural state. Skim milk is useless for calcium for instance, because the milkfat is essential to calcium absorption. As to your grandfather, I'm very sorry for you that he died at such a young age. Do you know about other factors in his diet? Was he a generous eater of carbohydrates? Particularly, but not limited to, sugar? What sort of personality did he have? Was it an "A" type, which some believe are more apt to have circulatory problems? Was the water he drank on a daily basis pure and whole; as Ken mentioned , the quality of the minerals in ones water is vitally important to good health, as is drinking sufficient amounts of it. I'm not going to ask you if your grandpa was a tippler (!) but alcohol consumption is very frequently connected to gout sufferers. I absolutely do not believe reducing intake of animal products is a good idea at all; I dont buy any of that stuff; figure it has been an excellent way for corporate America to get filthy rich by convincing us their manufactured junk is better than whole natural food. It's the way the food is raised that affects its nutritional quality, both good and bad, not the fact that it contains fat. The medical establishment/government has been pushing this low-fat nonsense for 30 years, and we keep dying of heart disease, cancer, etc, etc, and getting fatter and fatter. I would propose that the reason we are finding arterial plaque in young children is because of the phony milk they are being fed. Soy milk is nasty stuff too. Dont get me started on that! Well actually, you can get me started, these are some of my favorite subjects! Blessings, Earthmama

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

Earthmama, I enjoy talking, debating, about everthing, to learn, you must question, there are no dumb questions! No, my granfather did not drink, was definitely type "B" personality, very laid back. Their water was pure very deep well water, tested often because of the grade AAA dairy status. Snoozy....... I don't imply people are unnatural who drink it, just it seems an odd product to consume so much of, moderation is the key, as mentioned above. Craig....... I am allergic to milk, didn't used to be, now I use White Wave organic soy milk, I figure millions of those of oriental culture might have a better idea. I do enjoy an occasional Oreo with the soy milk! Eartmomma........ What is it about soy milk that upsets you? Enjoying this immensely, Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 03, 2000.

I don't drink milk, I can't stand the taste and feel of it, and I'm allergic to it. Makes my throat itch inside! ( yes, even the goat's milk) But I do apprecaite it as an easy, versatile, abundant source of protein, calcium, and other minerals. The nice thing is that the protein can be had everyday without having to kill something to get it. For some reason, I can take it cooked (soups), or as yogurt and cheese, but not ice cream or cream cheese. I still eat the ice cream, but when the itching and bellyache begins, I regret it! Thank goodness for those who do consume a lot of milk, I'd have no excuse for raising goats otherwise! Has anyone else seen the study comparing children raised exclusively on cow's or goat's milk? The cow milk children were taller, had longer bones, but the bones were more fragile and prone to breaking. The goat's milk children were a little shorter, but had very dense bones. I would really like to find that study again, if anyone has seen it.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 03, 2000.

Rebekah, do you mean the children were given nothing else to eat but goat's milk? Or that the milk they drank was exclusively one or the other, but otherwise they were on a normal diet?!?

I was raised drinking lots of milk. My mother's family had dairy cows when she was small, and so did my family (as in a small commercial dairy). I've always liked it. Have had to cut back on plain milk consumption, as I have celiac disease, and presumably leaky gut syndrome to go with it -- there are a number of others in our family with related or similar problems, so it's definitely running in the family. Almost all of my relatives have lived into their late eighties or nineties, most in relatively good health right up to the last, and all have been heavy consumers of animal products. Also of lots of home-grown veggies and fruits, and non- smokers and -drinkers. FWIW.

I agree with Earthmama about the carbohydrates being a more likely cause of overweight, stroke, diabetes, etc., than protein or animal fat. Seems like up until about fifteen or twenty years ago, everybody KNEW that sugar was what made people fat, then suddenly everybody *knew* that fat was the culprit -- and guess what!!! In the past twenty years of trying to eliminate fat from our diets, and not worrying about carbohydrates, the nation has grown fatter and unhealthier by far than it was before!! Earthmama, again, is probably right about the producers of processed foods being largely to blame for the so-called research results pointing the finger at dietary fat, rather than carbohydrates. How many research studies do the livestock associations fund, as compared to Nabisco and the other mega-giant processors (I'm not meaning to point the finger just at Nabisco here -- I don't eat processed foods much, and that's the only name I could think of right off the top of my head). On the other hand, consumption of feedlot beef, factory-raised pork and chicken, and eggs from battery hens, isn't healthy either. All of which is a very good reason for people to raise as much of their own food as possible!! You know, if we ate what was easiest to raise and store for the winter, as our ancestors did, we would be eating lots of veggies and meat and milk, a few eggs (old-fashioned hens didn't lat quite as well as modern breeds), some fruit, and a little grain, nuts, etc. Very little sugar, and that mostly in the form of honey. I think someone above mentioned moderation, and that is really a key. If from infancy people ate a variety of foods in moderation (and having 70% of the diet be carbohydrates is NOT moderation), we would all be much healthier. Also, something I was thinking about the other day, which has nothing to do with diet but a lot to do with health, is that sitting at a desk for eight hours a day, then trying to make up for it with an hours sustained exercise, isn't healthy either. Much better to work at a steady, moderate pace all day, as in the daily routine of chores our ancestors used to have before the advent of modern *conveniences*. Whew! I guess I put in more than my two cents worth -- sorry!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 03, 2000.

I LIKE IT.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

I also like it.[Still want a couple goats-husband says N.O.]

This has been an interesting read!Here's a verse from Proverbs 27:27- ...And thou shalt have goats' milk enough for thy food,for the food of thy household,and for the maintenance for thy maidens.

Blessings,~~Tracy~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), November 03, 2000.

Kathleen, very interesting comments, but do you think carbohydrates are the problem, or just refined sugars? Earthmomma,..... the largest culture on this planet are the Chinese, they eat very little meat of any type, hardly any animal products at all. The basis of their diet is rice, usually white rice, and soybean products for protein, and home-raised native vegetables. They have viturally no heart disease, high blood pressure, and one of the lowest cancer rates around, especially reproductive cancers. Using numbers as a guide, their diet is by far the most used. You switch their diet to "American type", and their rates of disease match ours. ???? My mother-in-law is French, raised there, she says the French eat very little meat, use aged cheeses a lot, basis of their diet is carbohydrates and fruits and vegetables, very little refined sugar, they eat fruit for dessert. The French paradox does exist concerning their dairy fat intake though, has everyone stumped. Jay..... I like your answer!!!! Still thinking...... Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 03, 2000.

Annie, in response to your soy question, try this: http://www.westonaprice.org/ploy.htm

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

The Chinese culture differs significantly from ours in other ways than cuisine. They are still largely an agrarian culture, where the vast majority of the population physically works the farms by hand. There is little or no public transportation, and cars are quite expensive, so even the relatively few office workers/city dwellers walk or bicycle everywhere they need to go. And finally, the Chinese live in large, extended families rather than single isolated units like we do. All this is far more natural to the human animal than our own culture. So how do you know it's soybeans and not their lifestyle that gives them the apparent protection against modern diseases?

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), November 03, 2000.

I am lactose intolerant so I can't have cows milk. I was raised on goat milk and did just fine on it. Many folks in Africa consume large amounts of milk. In fact, I just saw a program about some who's favorite "treat" is a mix of semi-coagulated blood & milk! Egyptions milked camels, the Khans milked mares, and many asian people milk tame buffalo. It all comes down to personal tastes and availability. BTW, for those who have never tried it, mares milk is super sweet...almost like a vanilla shake! Yummy!

-- elle (hotging@aol.com), November 03, 2000.

Kathleen, the study was done on children raised from birth on goat's and cow's milk. I presume that they ate other foods as they grew older. If I remeber correctly, the cow milk children had more broken bones than the goat milk kids.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 03, 2000.

I drink milk because it goes better with chocolate than anything else!!!

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), November 03, 2000.

Why do I drink Milk??? To wash the cookies down!!!!!! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), November 04, 2000.

Hi Everyone ! Thanks for all your input so far! Please do me two favors: have your blood pressure checked regularly, and have your cholesterol checked annually. If either, or both, are not normal, under 140/90 for BP, and under 175 for cholesterol, DO something to bring it under control, change your diet, exercise more, less stress, whatever it takes to get your numbers down. I got mine down from 150/110 to 127/76 for BP, and 210 to 150 for cholesterol, just by reducing the amount of animal products in my diet, mainly it was the fat reduction, now under 25% in my diet. What ever it takes, do it. I just don't want you to be another statistic in the war on heart disease. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 04, 2000.

Very good discussion here! I enjoy all the different perspectives that added up give a good insight and answer. Can't add a lot other than Our total fat intake and total carb intake is gennerally much higher than it should be. Processed and Hydrogenated fats in particular, are espcially bad for us. Hard to avoid in store bought premade stuff.

Genetics must factor in somewhere also, espcially in regards to the very young w/ big fatty plaques and those 90 year olds who've been smoking for 75 years.

Hard physical work daily seems to help. I met another 80+ year old, contankerous farmer yesterday at work. "I had chest pain on & off all day. Had to finish my work 'fore I could come in". I'm hoping the contankerousness helps in regards to myself. I see a lot of really active old people and very few of them smoke. Most of the smokers die younger. Don't get mad if you smoke, just the facts. I only quit a couple of years ago myself. John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 04, 2000.

Thank you John, I really value your opinion, especially on health concerns! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 04, 2000.

Hi Annie, I'm perplexed about your comments regarding your mother-in-law. I too know people from France, and they have a completely different take on the French diet. Animal products played a very important role in their cuisine. Could be a class difference maybe? As far as the Chinese, my understanding is that their overall cancer rate is actually quite a bit worse than ours. I quote from the WestonAPrice website:" In general, the modern Chinese diet does not protect them against cancer. The overall rate of cancer in China is twice that of the United States. The Chinese have less cancer of the colon, lung and breast, but far greater levels esophageal, stomach and liver cancer. Heart disease mortality is greater in the US but the Chinese have more strokeBin some districts the rate of death by stroke for those under 65 is as high as 8 percent. " As for when the Chinese, or any other more "backward" (!) culture switches to the western diet, yes, they always go downhill fast! Typical American diet is a disgrace. I don't know what to say about your grandfather, except that I don't believe you responded to the enquirey about his carb intake. And about the suggestion to have your vitals checked every year: certainly that is the standard belief, and we all have to do what feels right for us, but as for me, the less I see the inside of a physicians office the better. All the people I know who are the sickest are the ones who are always at the doctors for something or other. As for my family, we never go, are almost never sick, and if we do catch something, we go to mother nature for help. I believe that what you concentrate on grows,whether it be positive or negative.If I worry about my BP, or my cholesterol, or any other markers the establishment uses for whether or not Im healthy, I'm quite sure I would develop those conditions. I guess I think good health is quite simple for most people (notice I didnt say easy): a wide variety of whole, unadulterated natural foods, a generous amount of pure mineral-rich water, enjoyable exercise, one's days filled with doing work that one loves and makes one's life feel valuable, and an open expansive heart, accepting life's difficulties and joys with equal gratitude.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 04, 2000.

Earthmomma, you are blessed with the luck of having very healthy genes, genetic predisposition to certain aliments is a proven fact. Our family has a definite predisposition for HBP, high cholesterol, and reproductive cancers, on both my father's side, and my mother's. I do not agree that we have any control over genetic factors, other than trying to reduce our risk factors we can control, like diet, excersise, stress reduction, etc. That is what I'm trying to do, and so far, it is working. My grandfather lived a very healthy lifestyle, other than consuming a lot of animal products, the carbohydrates he ate were of the complex variety, very little refined sugars. Please realize that our genetic risk factors were there before the advent of processed foods, soda pop, and chemical farming, BTW, he farmed organically, that is, the manure from the dairy cows provided the fertilizer he needed, the cows got no hormones, etc. I don't know all the answers, but have to do what works to reduce my risk factors as much as possible, as anyone should do. I do believe some of us are born slightly defective in non-apparent ways, a hundred years ago, we defective ones would have died at a very young age, Mother Nature does make mistakes occasionally, but in her natural world, you die out before you adversely effect the gene pool. This is one reason I believe we have more "strange" type diseases now than years ago, and I feel it will only get worse as science reaches even farther forward. I do not have the answer to that dilemma however. I really appreciate your ideas and input, it's very educational! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 04, 2000.

Earthmomma, I forgot to mention that my mother-in-law lived in a rural area, but she said most people, unless the were quite well off, ate the way they did, even in the cities. My sister-in-law from Italy, who just recently moved to the States, says their diet was very similar, except even more pasta was used. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 04, 2000.

The big difference about most of the worlds diet and the American one is that most of the world is eating fresh, homemade, in season food.And most of America is downing Big Macs, super no fat insta nuke whatisit?, and I am sorry for all you oreo cookie fans out there but that is on my list as well (I do eat one once or twice a year!). I don't drink that much milk and nor do my kids - my ma took my kids to the doctors once in the States (doesn't trust the italian ones!!) and the doctor told me that I should give my kids icecream if they didn't want milk- HELLO!! Why should I want to make my kids eat ice cream as if it was doctors orders? Needless to say my kids are perfectly healthy (the italian doctors aren't THAT bad!! As far as I know, since we almost never go!!)

-- kelly (kellytree@hotmail.com), November 04, 2000.

As a vegetarian, all my animal protein comes from home raised milk and eggs. I like milk, cheese, yogurt, ice cream. When my mom was dieing from breats cancer, the doctors suggested to my sister and I to drink whole milk, not 2%skim etc and said that my milk (not homoginzed) was the best. My step dad who was healthy, average cholesterol exercised daily, had a huge heart attack last Saturday (OK, he did still smoke) I think is has a lot to do with genes and over all lifestyle. You haven't really lived until you've had a bowl of cereal with unskimmed Jersey milk on it!!!!

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), November 04, 2000.

Dianne, sorry to hear about your father, but unless your cholesterol is below 175, and 150 is even more desirable, you still have increased risk of heart disease. You do not reverse existing vascular damage (fat plaques in arteries) until you are below 150. That, and his smoking, huge risk all by itself, contributed to his heart attack. Please have him re-evaluate his diet, and his smoking, after he is feeling better so it does not happen again.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 05, 2000.

Annie, see if you can get ahold of a book called Protein Power -- I saw it in B.J.'s yesterday for under ten dollars, and it is well worth it. The two doctors who wrote it present a very strong case for the need to cut back on carbohydrate intake -- all carbohydrates turn into sugar as they are digested, so it doesn't matter where they come from. The *average* sugar (all forms, including all carbs.) consumption in this country is two cups per day. Consider that some people eat less, so some must be eating a lot more. In the back of the book, there is some very interesting information about ancient Egypt. The Egyptians did not have refined carbohydrates like we do, they ate pretty well, according to modern medical *wisdom*. So the archaeologists expected the huge numbers of mummies they've found to be pretty healthy. Lo and behold, obesity was rampant, as were other modern health problems as far as can be determined from the remains. The Egyptians were eating whole grains, vegetables, fruits, only small amounts of honey (the only available sweetener) -- so why did they have all these health problems that we think that diet should solve (and obviously ISN'T!!!). Archaeology has studied the remains of (what they call) hunter-gatherer populations, which ate only very small amounts of grains, and found a total contrast to the Egyptian population. Few or no cavities in the teeth, strong bones, no obesity, no cancer or heart problems, etc.

I've never had really high blood pressure, but mine did drop after I started the low-carb diet. Too many carbohydrates in the diet causes water retention (which you will see, if you go on a low-carb diet -- there is an initial large loss of several pounds. Loss then stabilizes to a more reasonable amount per week -- but if you binge on carbs one day, you will see a weight jump of two to six pounds the next day -- which very rapidly disappears upon a return to the low- carb diet.)._ Water retention causes high blood pressure. I suppose there is more to it than that, but since I'm not a doctor, that's the best I can explain it. Also, thousands and thousands of people have used the low-carb diets over the years, and it has been found that if you stick to it, your cholesterol will go *down*, but the good cholesterol goes *up*.

If you can't get ahold of the book I mentioned right now, at least read the low-carb and paleolithic diet websites, and seriously investigate the research cited on those sites. There is a lot that we aren't being told by the dietary establishment -- it is politially correct to be vegetarian right now, or as close as you can get, so anything that contradicts that gets suppressed or ignored. And people's health is suffering as a result. We've got an epidemic of diabetes in the making right now -- just look at all the obese people next time you go to the mall. Obesity itself does not cause diabetes, but they are both caused by the same thing -- insulin resistance -- and that is caused by over-consumption of carbohydrates.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 05, 2000.

Thanks Kathleen, for the ideas and input, I have read many of the "protein diet" books, but I have to watch my protein intake or my kidneys suffer for it, even though I drink of a gallon of filtered water daily, also gout runs in our family, and excess protein makes that worse. My joints are worse for about a week following a meat/steak feast, like when I get hungry for a 10 ounce prime rib! Being overweight is really not a problem in the family, indeed many could use 10-20 pounds, and no one has, or has had, diabetes. Regarding the Egytptian mummies, only the very rich, or very royal, members of society were mummified, very few examples of ordinary members of their society are available for study, which would provide a more accurate indication of the effects of their diet. Thanks again for the ideas! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 05, 2000.

This is my opinion. I believe that both low carb and extremely low fat diets are unhealthy. Many people who go on very low fat diets have a short term drop in blood cholesterol levels and then bounce back higher than before. Blood cholesterol is not dependent on the cholesterol you eat. It is dependent upon the amount of cholesterol your liver manufactures. This is why some people can be on a very low cholesterol lowfat diet and still have high cholesterol. Most of this is genetic predisposition. I honestly think much of the problem is malnutrition. Most people don't eat enough vegetables. They also eat food which is devoid of nutrition. Inorganic farming has led to vegetables not having the mineral content that they ought to have. I blieve that the first thing that should be done is to switch dietary habits to only homegrown food. If I was making a pyramid for health it would be upside down with vegetables at the top fruit next and meats and grains last. That doesn't mean that there is not a place for meats and grains but that the nutrition in the fruits and vegetables is more important. To me an ideal meal is two large servings of vegetables (1cup or more) and either meat or whole geain in some form 6oz. fruit should be eaten alone and milk drunk alone. Daily at least 6 servings of vegetables, 3 of fruit, 2 of meat or grain and three of milk. The problem is that most americans won't eat this way. Fat is neutral and should be eaten conservatively. After eating a meal of either meat or grains, two hours should be allowed to elapse for grains, and three hours for meat. This gives the stomach time to empty before putting more food in it. Breakfast should be fruit. this works with the bodies natural cycles of assimlation and elimination. This way of eating was outlined in the book Fit for life, by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond. I don't eat like this enough myself, but it is my ideal. When I have eaten this way I felt better, I lost weight, It cured my stomach ailments and they never came back. My husband and I use this diet as our yearly detox and it works. Why don't I stay on it all the time? Well it works better when the garden is in full force and the fruit is fresh off the tree. My plan is to slowly just eat that way all the time, but I don't ever forsee a time of not missing a hamburger. My body tell me when it is time to hit the fit for life trail though. I can't wait for next years garden.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), November 06, 2000.

Hi there Little Bit, thanks for your input. It's not per se the low cholesterol in the diet that lowers BP, but TOTAL lower fat in the diet allows the arteries to clean themselves out. I eat lots of my own home produced eggs each week, at least a dozen or more, but my total fat intake is below 25%, which is not that extreme at all, which keeps my arteries clean and healthy, my BP has stayed down for over a year now, thank goodness! Your right about the vegetables, I eat 5 or 6 times more vegetables than meat. Thanks again, Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 06, 2000.

i drink milk because nestle's quik is pretty rank and powdery on it's own. :)

-- juno redleaf (gofish@presys.com), November 07, 2000.

Annie, Having read much of the same information you might have read I can understand your reasons for asking this question. Having seriously researched both sides of this issue, I have concluded that milk has been used by cultures around the world since antiquity with positive health benefits. If you want to do a serious study of this issue based on real research (Frank Onski and his antimilk cohorts (sp) are not a valid researchers in my estimation), read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price. You should be able to get that through interlibrary loan. It will really open your eyes. There is alot of misinformation in the healthy eating arena today. For example, acidopholus, the beneficial bacteria in our intestines is enhanced and fed by dairy products. I had a condition called dysbiosis and had NO acidopholus present in my intestines whatsoever. I could not drink milk and could not get the supplemental acidopholus to reinplant in my intestines. When I started using goat's milk yogurt daily (up to a half gallon daily), this acidopholus has been able to reinplant itself and my many health problems related to digestion have cleared up. I have been on both sides of the fence on this issue and I can tell you that the anti-dairy people are dead wrong. Any good study of intestinal microbiology will show this. Much of the anti-milk rhetoric centers around it being mucous forming. However, the mucous formed by dairy product is precisely what is need for maximum adherance of beneficial bacteria to occur in the small intestines. Without this mucous layer, those of us with little or no acidopholus in our intestines with not be helped by DDS supplements. There is plenty of research to prove this available from the Dysbiosis Research Foundation. If you are allergic to milk it is probably because you are acidopholus deficient. If you are lactose intolerant it may be genetic. Also try www.WestonAPrice.org for more information on this controversy.

-- Tiffani (cappello@alltel.net), November 09, 2000.

A good book for Homesteaders who try to raise most of there food to be healthyis Nourishing Traditions The Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats, by Sally Fallon. And if you have a library with the Nexus magizine, read Emerging health risks of Soy Products, also by Sally Fallon.

And if you really want to contemplate the value of good Fats in the diet, RAW fats that is, read: We want to live by Aajonus Vonderplanitz.

Earthmama, great comments.

-- (schlut@adams.net), November 09, 2000.

Thanks Tiffani, for your information, I'm lactose intolerant, but I can eat small amouts of cultured dairy products, like naturally cultured yogurt and the like. I have read Weston Price's contributions extensively, and although he represents a good case at some points, mostly dietary common-sense, he fails to back up ANY of his theories with double blind, placebo controlled, long time/effect, studies. I have to believe what can be proven, verified, and duplicated with real life clinical trial studies, not just theories. Scientific process must be followed for results/theories to become accepted by the worldwide scientific (not just Doctors) community as fact. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 09, 2000.

Hello everyone what an interesting topic. I believe it was not at kyeboard or something like that that said they keep powdered milk on hand. Just thought I tell you what my Step-mum's chiropractor said about powdered milk, first it is loaded with sugar and secondly it has gone bad. I don't know how he knows that all that I know is that he asked her if she ate a lot of sugar and she said no and believe she doesn't, then he said well do you eat alot of powdered milk and believe me she did, and he said that was where all the sugar was coming from and then added that is off. Well that's it, thanks maybe someone can confirm or not.

-- Megan Milliken (millikenfarm@altavista.com), November 09, 2000.

Annie, about the Egyptian mummies, in the last ten years or so, some HUGE burial grounds have been uncovered with literally thousands of mummies in them. They may not have been the poorest working people of the era, but they were a pretty good cross-section of the middle class. It is these new finds that the studies have been done on. Little Bit, you see if you can get ahold of Protein Power, too! I don't agree with their premise that people have trouble with carbohydrates because we didn't *evolve* to eat them (I believe our bodies are slowly deteriorating as the result of the original sin, and death and decay coming into the world), but the science behind their arguments is very sound, as has been attested to by several biochemists and nurses that I've talked to who've read the book also. One friend of mine, a retired nurse, a few years ago told me that the low-carb diets were very unhealthy, but I gave her my copy of the book to read, and she came back with a totally changed mind on the subject, telling me that they were right on all counts. She said the diet they were encouraging was very similar to what the Weight- Watcher's diet used to be, before the low-fat, no-fat craze. I believe there has been a lot of propaganda against the low-carb diets by people who are ideologically in favor of vegetarianism, but even in the initial weight-loss stage, the diet recommended is actually a very sensible one including a lot of vegetables. I know I feel better, have more energy, and feel more awake on this diet than I have since I was a pre-teenager, even though I still weigh more than I did when I got married. And better than I did even on an almost grain-free diet prior to this (I have celiac disease) when I was still eating a lot of carbohydrates. Back to the original topic of milk, milk itself is actually rather high in carbohydrates, but made into yogurt with live cultures, you can subtract eight grams of carbohydrate per cup (of plain yogurt). The little critters in the live culture eat a lot of the milk sugars. Which may be why some of you can tolerate yogurt but not plain milk.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 09, 2000.

Blame it on Doctors and marketing and the whole dairy industry.

-- Christina Liu (christina_liu@excite.com), January 11, 2001.

Everybody should be vegans. Besides, you can get most of the good with less of the bad from soy (or rice, or almond, you get the idea) "milk."

-- Erin (erinr24@yahoo.com), April 12, 2001.

i think milk is not so important. the milk that come from our parent's breasts are more important.

-- setan iblis (kelasmelayu5@hotmail.com), April 14, 2001.

i don't drink milk. i drink soy bean milk :)

-- miriam (foo@bar.com), May 27, 2001.

im on a diet that you are not alowed to drink milk in its the x factor diet its brilliant i lost so much weight try it

-- coolgal3000 (iamnot@aol.com), March 25, 2002.

Let's hear it for Devonshire (clotted) cream, and strawberries....

Although I do think a lot of the problems traced to dairy products are that they can be a "hidden allergy" that develops over time because they are found in lots of the foods we eat, like wheat products.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 25, 2002.

I haven't drank milk since I was 10 years old. Not even once since then. I just lost my appetite for it one day. A few years later I was over at the neighbors dairy farm a few times a week and really lost my appetite for it then. ; )

I eat alot of cheese and also take calcium supplements. I've never had any problems related to calcium deficiency. My kids don't drink it much either, about 12oz a day if that. They've never had any bone growth or health problems.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), March 25, 2002.

I always drank alot of milk because I like it. Then I developed an allergy to it. I tried soy milk, but it messed up my hormones-REALLY. Then I bought goats. I could drink that, but the goats wouldn't stay home. I got tired of chasing them down so I sold them. Then I bought a cow, but someone shot her during hunting season. I finally gave up and just don't drink milk.

-- Gayle in KY (gayleannesmith@yahoo.com), March 25, 2002.

Dag, I missed this post the first time around:( I agree with what many ahve mentioned so far, its the processing of the milk we drink that appears to being the culprit, now if only we could invest money in research we could make a point that raw milk is better for us and then we can acutally see more favorable regs for raw milk. In my humble opinion folks ahve been drinking milk since the days of the old testament. The early nomads made cheese by placing milk in bags, maybe leather? Can't recall, and using it for food. The also drank the milk as well. I think this would be a great research project for someone ambitious.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 25, 2002.

First many populations that have traditionally used milk were nomadic. They werent around to harvest crops. Their animals moved with them. Cold climate populations also had grass to feed animals but couldnt maybe always grow an abundance of grain.

I have a notion that nomadic hunters and gatherers had healthier bones not because they did or didnt have milk, but because minerals are more abundant in wild game and plants than in crop land that is plowed year after year and the domestic animals that are fed hay from this land. Floods on Nile may have replenished some fertility yearly to Egyptian crops but not mineral availability. We've mined the soil now in most areas of the world. I wonder if cultures like Japan who were/are dependent on natural sea food (plant and animal)have gotten more minerals so less. They eat lot of fish and seaweed in their diet. Now that we "farm" fish, the fish's flesh probably is less nutritious and no better than other "farmed" foods.

-- Hermitjohn (Hermit@hilltop_homestead.zzn.com), May 11, 2002.