As people sit worrying about helicopters flying over their land, and if they can legalize marijuana, they don't realize the freedoms they have. You can worship who you want, burn your nations flag, talk your politics and make puns about the president. You have what all countries look for, the american dream. We have just had seventeen sailors die! And I look on the forum and see a thread about helicopters and legalization of marijuana, and their whinning about their country, that has had people die that they can speak like this. This is sheer ingnorance. If you don't like this country, go to another. My husband has been active duty for 17 yrs. and he has told me of what he has seen in other countries. You would be in prison for half of the things you say here. We are blessed. Things are not the greatest here but it is better than all the others. I thank God I live in a country where I can say my opinion, like in this forum, and not be in prison tomorrow. Love and God Bless. Judy Livengood

-- Judy (allsmile@ctnet.net), October 15, 2000

Answers

Judy, I read that thread and didn't perceive it as whining, but rather that people are voicing their opinions freely. From participating on this forum for a long time, I have concluded that most posters here are quite serious about issues, very patriotic in their own ways, and care deeply about our country. Maybe check out the "fly the flag" post. Anyway, I agree with you that we do need to be appreciative of our freedoms. We do take a lot for granted.

I thank God for a country like this, too. Thanks for reminding us all.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), October 15, 2000.

Pleas see my reply in the thread about the helicopters flying over...

I have been a newspaper reporter for more than 20 years and every government entity I cover...local, county and state, are continually trying to undermine our personal and family freedoms and our property rights....don't let our current freedoms fool you into complacity...while I agree with have more freedoms than any other country...don't you realize that when they take away a few of our freedoms they want to take more??? Look at Hitler's Germany. If we don't stand up to our rights here we'll loose them.

We were a homeschooling family. The public schools and the big teacher's unions are constantly working to have new laws that would do away with homeschooling because the more kids that are taught at home, the more MONEY the public schools loose.

We have a 13 acre homestead. The county continually tries to undermine our rights as property owners. And this is going on all across the country.

I have a college degree and I consider myself a conservative Christian...but our country is quickly going to hell in a hand basket because we are apathetic and are letting our governmental leaders get away with all kinds of things.

You need to attend some city council meetings, some county commission meetings...read some of their minutes....look at some of the planning commission and zoning commission meetings...

The United States was founded on certain principals and those rights are being taken away from us every day.

Free speech is one of the most vital of those rights. I'm proud that even folks I disagree with can let their feelings be known on forums like this.

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), October 15, 2000.

So as not to pick a fight but point out somtehing to you....Your husband has three years left before he can take the best retirement plan in the country.....I agree that military should have the best retirement, BUT Constitutionally we are not supposed to have a standing military in times of peace. Everyone who is a male between 17 and 40 is supposed to be the MILITIA.

I have no disillusions nor am I ignorant about what all of these soldiers of ours died for, it was FREEDOM. Not so they could become the SS of our country and fly around in helicopters over citizens property and pull over buses and search peoples personal effects, nor did they think that they were guaranteeing a future where the Government would have them participate in the murder of innocent civilians. They were fighting for the very thing that would disallow such actions...The preservation of the Constitution and FREEDOM.

The role of the military isn't to be the World Police.

As for better than all the others? Actually quite questionable now. Last time I was in Germany it was quite a bit more free than we are here. Also, the news showed other sides of stories which I later found out were MUCH closer to the truth.

Please don't think that there aren't political prisoners in this country! There most certainly are, and most of them are there for speaking their mind. I do thank God that I can still speak my mind, but my phone is tapped, I have to worry about my business being confiscated under drug seizure and forfeiture laws if someone comes on my premises with even one joint, I had to argue with a police officer about not giving him my SS# when I was pulled over for not wearing a seat belt, and my right to keep and bear arms is routinely being whittled away by underhanded legislation. Drug laws are allowing police to bust into houses like the Gestapo and shoot people before they even verify that they are in the right house....on and on. Is that whining? Or is that an awareness that you would rather not have?

I agree that the deaths of those sailors is horrendous and I feel terrible for their families. Senseless violence.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 15, 2000.

I'm sorry, I forgot to say : "The price of freedom is constant vigilance."

And also, thank your husband. I can see you still have faith in the system, and it's most likely because he's a decent man!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 15, 2000.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU WROTE, AND I ALSO FEEL THAT THE LAST PERSON WHO WROTE A RESPOSNE NEEDS TO GO BACK TO GERMANY, ESPECIALLY SINCE I WAS THERE FOR 4YRS, AND OUR MILITARY ACTIVE AND RETIRED SHOULD BE COMPENSATED SUBSTAINUALLY FOR ALL THEY HAVE TO ENDURE TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY FROM COMMUNISM AND THE CONSTANT THREAT OF WAR. OUR GOVERNMENT HAS PROMISED AND PROMISED TO TAKE CARE OF OUR SOLDIERS AND AFTER THEIR DONE CRIPPLING AND SCREWING WITH THEIR MINDS THEY DESERT THE SOLDIER, AND EXPECT THEM TO SURVIVE ON LESS THAN WELFARE OFFERS. THAT'S SAD, THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT SHOULD BE, I'M SURE IF SHE HAD A HUSBAND THAT WAS COMMITTED TO THEIR COUNTRY LIKE WE DO SHE'D UNDERSTAND MORE COMPLETELY HUH JUDY. THANKS FOR WRITING YOUR ARTICLE.

-- PAULA (EPACO13@EXCITE.COM), October 15, 2000.

You cant fault people for various discussions on the varied threads. Yes, it is a tragedy, but life also goes on. If you took the time to read all the threads, you will see many of the same participants speaking on this tragedy, flag flying, white washing, fireplace inserts feminine hygene farming, gun rights and anymore of the 29000 and counting threads here. Something to keep in mind, those sailors chose the service as their profession. As of now our military is all volunteer. The ones who volunteer for the profession of soldier or sailor do so to insure that life in this country can go on as we know it. Honor them with your respect, but most of all honor them with continueing the day to day lives, they sacrificed to preserve. I agree with you that there is a lot of ignorance and whinnig in this world, but that is just my opinion, which is one of my freedoms.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 15, 2000.

Am I right to assume you forgot the punctuation? Cause this doesn't make sense (but it gave me a laugh!) ", fireplace inserts feminine hygene farming, gun rights and anymore of the 29000 and counting threads here"

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), October 15, 2000.

PAULA, I never said anything to give the impression that I don't have respect for the military. The fact is that our lovely government which no longer represents our country nor it's foundational premises is DESTROYING the members of the services, with more than low wages.

You obviously are misconstruing my feelings about our country. I am an EXTREME Constitutionalist and will gladly die defending my country from it's present government. That is the REAL enemy!!!! And do you want to talk about communism????I suggest that you review the Democratic parties voting record and proferred legislation, then double check it agaisnt the Republicans and you will see a pretty good overlap. Go into the archives and look up two posts called "Long Term Planning..." then check who posted it before throwing out insults! I wouldn't die defending this flippin government from enemies to whom they have contributed financially and militarily.

If I were married to a man that was in the military I would encourage him to dessert! This government is not worth risking your life for, this country is!

-- Doreen (aanimalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 15, 2000.

Punctuation due to bad eyes, small monitor and dirty keyboard, but you get the point. The last few days, I have seen people all over that are wearing bigger blinders than the mule my grandfather had.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 15, 2000.

I read this thread several times before posting. No surprises here, I disagree ! If you feel a person belongs in jail for what they say than I suggest you come right on over and try and put me there. You will need to bring several items. The body that drives your speech, lots of weapons and ammunition, and a lot of body bags.

I respect the men who died for my freedom in the past and also the sailors of recent. However, we are not the world police and we have no need of a standing military. I suggest your comments are geared more toward counting your retirement benefits !

The military, like other government personnel, believe strongly that the ciizens owe them some great debt. How about a watch and a SSI check ? That is all we common people get--what makes you feel you are any better ? The military and most government jobs are slack jobs, no real work required. I know this for a fact as I work part time for a local government. Most government employees would be fired for incompetence if they were required to boil water for a living ! Most military personnel after 10 years in, just ride the gravy train, dress nice and look pretty. They have gone a far in rank as they are going so all that is left is gain 50 pounds, buy a Harley, and eat like there is no tommorrow.

I don't mean to be rude but I don't need to hear about what your husband did for me. I saw first hand what a standing army in peacetime can do when Vicki Weaver was murdered. He can retire now as we really have no futher need to pay any military personnal. Thank You for your service ! Here is our gold watch and your SSI check--Have fun !

-- Joel Rosen (Joe681@webtv.net), October 16, 2000.

OKAY, YOU CAN SAY ALL YOU WANT ABOUT WHAT I WROTE. BUT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW MY HUSBAND JOEL. HE WEIGHS 145 PDS. INFANTRY, RANGER SCHOOL, DELTA FORCE SCHOOL, AIR ASSAULT, YOU NAME IT MY HUSBANDS DONE IT. HE IS NOT ON NO GRAVY TRAIN. HE HAS WORKED HARD FOR THIS COUNTRY, AND IS NOT A LAZY MAN. HE HAS MORALS AND RESPECTS THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY. WHY DON'T YOU GO SIT IN A FOX HOLE FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS IN JAPANS WINTER. OR TRAIN SOLDIERS IN AUSTRAILIA. GO LIVE ON THE DMZ IN KOREA, AND LOOK AT THE CHILDREN RUN FOR THE BRASS ON AMMO TO SELL. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

-- Judy Livengood (allsmile@ctnet.net), October 16, 2000.

boy i am sure i am going to really piss alot of people off but here it goes...joel you could not be more right if you tried. my x was in the army why ? because as teenagers we got in alot of trouble and it was either army or jail. we lived in el paso tx for 2 yrs then over seas for 2, never had so much fun in my life,no real bills,rent paid for,med and dental paid for food and stuff bought at the px and commisary{sp}. the best part he worked on the patriot missel,drove it all over the country, set it up and even went "somewhere"and shot off a live one, this was a guy {he would agree w/ me }at the time drank more then a fish,cheated and lied but yet we paid him to defend us? he finally got kicked out after being drunk on duty for the 3rd time. the good old army paid to have us flown home w/ all our stuff and he is still able to get a v.a. loan. he was released w/ an honorable discharge{he promised to go to a.a.}. what point am i getting to ...when are army becomes a place to hide we dont need it.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), October 16, 2000.

I agree with Renee. Our county has one of the highest enlistment records in the state of Texas. Why? Because the kids got in trouble and had to leave or go to jail, or because they live in such poor home conditions (drunk, doper, or abusive parents) they are desparate to get out no matter what. As most of the jobs are part time, minimum wage, their only real out is the military. My son's friend just enlisted because she got herself hooked on herion and plans to use the Army as a rehab!!!! May the Creator help her. I fear she has made a terrible mistake. Meanwhile, what is she doing in the military??? Just what we need to defend us.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), October 16, 2000.

All right, now we are pulling all stops!

DELTA FORCE!!!!?????!!!!!! Gee, I am so happy to hear that your husband is a member of one of the most despicable squads in the military. I think it is just super cool that they go into a town withpout telling anyone and literally blow up buildings, rapel from helicopters onto roof tops and shoot out windows and doors of buildings with ceramic shells. Also, I think tht the nice little adventures where they cut electricity and take over airports and shut down towns to "exercise" in a closer to real life scenario are just exactly the kinds of things we should pay our loving government for..... Brilliant adherence to common sense, huh? Never mind that the first attack by these armed and moronic thugs was less than one hunbdred yards from a nursing home and all of the old people thought we were being invaded by another country!

What kind of a government encourages this kind of behavior on the part of a peacetime military?

"WHY DON'T YOU GO SIT IN A FOX HOLE FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS IN JAPANS WINTER. OR TRAIN SOLDIERS IN AUSTRAILIA. GO LIVE ON THE DMZ IN KOREA"

What is your husband even DOING in JAPAN???We haven't been at war with Japan, Korea or Austalia. Why do you think it's necessary to TRAIN Austrailians troops???? Can't they train their own troops? Your husband must not really know the original law.

Why don't you ask your husband if he has learned how to successfully round up civilians? That's what they are training him for, and I am sure he will be quite good at with all of the Delta Force and Ranger experience!

You my dear, are part of the problem. I hope I have ticked you off enough to make you pull your head out of the sand and research this stuff. But if you like make believe, you will just keep believing that it's all for the good ole USA.

ps. Do you guys know that when you type in all caps it is the same as yelling? It's kind of impolite.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 16, 2000.

I am so glad that all of you feel the same way that i do about our country. I do belive that we should not have a standing army during piece time. I think that we should just wait to a war breaks out and draft all our little kidies that have no training the more blood and guts the better. this would ensure a great turn over in our population. this would also help with enployment in the united states due to the large number of body bags that we will need. in response to all this great information that you have on how they get recruits in the army i have been trying to get in the army so i can get that great training so i can protect my self from all these nuts that are in the u.s. goverment. but they just wont let me in because i had asthmia as a child and never had it since age 10 that makes me mad. i had a dui when i was sixteen and they still hold that against me and i am 27 at this time. all of you that are saying this country is so bad i have a great place for you to move i have been their it is ZIMBABWE. you can walk down the street and shoot any body you want with no reprocussion. you want have to worry about them dumd hellicopters just blow them out of the sky sound great hu! hey dont worry about that little bit of pot growing in you back yard just grow you big field and prtect it with all them guns. as you can see bye know i have some great ideas if you like this i will run for president. Hey aint it great i could be elected with my great morals looking forward to sending you children to war in the future with your help im going to run for presedent next time around. plese dont hold that dui against me when i run like the army did, also dont worry about your kids serving in the army befor war starts i want it to be bloody them kids dont need any training. bye the time you have spent your time reading this i have woke up ran five miles and practiced killing the people that would take your freedoms from you. so when you wake up with no worries in your head i want you to remeber all those people that have given all their freedoms up and are serving in the military so you can sleep well at night. the people you talk about you don't know and dont care about. they wake up every morning not knowing if they will live or die for you but you go ahead and talk about them as free loaders or drunks .

-- Bill (Messenger@ctnet.com), October 16, 2000.

I agree with Joel, Doreen, and the others, being in the military is no different than being a policeman, fireman, or working the EMS squad in the inner city; it's a public service job inwhich your life is at risk at all times, you know that when you go in, it entitles you to no special privilages other than than the heartfelt thanks of those you personally serve/save. The military has its place of course, but they should be subject to the same laws we are. I lost family members in the last 5 wars, but that does not mean I agree that we even should have been involved in all of them at all. We simply want our rightful say so in getting involved militarily in foreign conflicts, we should not be the World's police. W.W.II was the last war we should have been involved in, a lot of young men and women lost their lives needlessly in the rest. Just my opinion, Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), October 16, 2000.

I was horrified to see the explosion and see Americans lose their lives. I've lived overseas, and have lived where it is illegal to go against the goverment. There are always extremes - I am thankful to live in a country where I can voice my opinion, but it is also a country that spent over 100 million for foreign elections but won't contribute to the campaigns of third parties in America. It is a country that is run by rich white men who have no idea what it is like to actually work for a living - they debate the theory of education, while I work in a school where over 70% of the kids are living below poverty, that smells like urine in the hallways, that doesn't have a library, and the other day had no running water. We are the richest country in the world, yet have 1 in 5 kids living in poverty. We keep hearing about our great tax surplus - how come they never talk about the billions of dollars that is missing from the budget of the Dept. of Education, Commerce, and several other federal agencies. The government talks about openning free trade, but they don't tell us about all the factories closing to go to Mexico and pay 12 year olds a dollar a day to make $120 pair of Nikes. They sign on to the WTO, but don't tell us that the rules of WTO trade override American laws. The government bans chemicals in our country, then exports them to be sprayed on food in Mexico, that is imported back to us. We critize countries on their human rights issues, but lock up and execute innocent citizens. We place trade sanctions on Cuba for human rights violations, but open free trade to China, ignoring their human rights violations. I participate in peaceful protests against the presidential debates and the WTO, and now have an FBI file. We can recognize the flaws of our own government, fight for change, but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate what we have. It just means we don't have to settle. We are continuing the fight to preserve what was fought for so long ago. Because something is issued by the governemnt, doesn't make it right. If it is the government that represents us, it is our responsibility to challenge and question that which we don't like.

-- Julia in Tally (tofubiscuit@excite.com), October 17, 2000.

Way to go Bill the messenger! You tell all these idots that seem to despise this country (if they dont like it here then go live in another, us true americans out there would love to rid this country of all the nonpatriotics. i don't agree with all the things our government has done and will do in the future eighter but hey, i've lived in a foreign country and after that experience i personally know first hand this country is by far the best the world has to offer. Why does everyone think all the foreigners keep fleeing to this country in the first place? Because it is the land of oppertunity, and all i have to say now is WHOEVER OUT THERE THAT DOESN'T LIKE IT HERE, THEN LEAVE, AUSTA LAVISTA BABY, AND GOOD RIDANCE.

-- Paula (epaco13@excite.com), October 17, 2000.

Billy, Paula and Judy...I believe all of the people you are referring to as "unpatriotic" and/or idiots are EXACTLY the people that are stemming the tide to communism and dictatorship (via executive orders and unconstitutional legislation), might I suggest to you that if WE left you'd all be hiding in your closets when the SS boys decided you'd had a thought. That might be dangerous....but I suppose the latter would take a lot of time to have occur.

Why can't you take off your blinders and look for real information????? It's out there in vast quantities. With you bending the ear of the enlisted men, I fear that totalitarinism is just a lock step away. I wish I could stoop to name calling, but I will resist the temptation. I hope you wake up before your husband tries to put us "dissentors" on the buses. He won't get much cooperation.

-- Doreen (aniamlwaitress@yahoo.com), October 17, 2000.

Bravo Julia!!! Well said!!!

-- Cathy Horn (hrnofplnty@webtv.net), October 17, 2000.

THIS IS FOR THE ANIMALWAITRESS WHICH BY THE WAY TELLS ALL, ANYWAY ITS IDOTS LIKE YOU THAT NEED TO LEAVE THIS COUNTRY AND STAY GONE.

-- PAULA (EPACO13@EXCITE.COM), October 17, 2000.

come on everyone,are we going to degrade ourselves by calling names? i dont much like being called an idiot, is it not my right to speak too?or only when we all agree?freedom of speach..remember that one?

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), October 17, 2000.

Come On Everyone, remember this a Forum, same as a debate, which in case you've forgotten, means different people expressing different opinions about whatever is being discussed. Quit taking someones opinion so personally, we all have the right to our own opinion, and to voice it. We have the Framers of the Constitution to thank for being able to do this, no one else! People who stand up for their Constitutional rights and refuse to compromise them are the people who keep this country truely free, remember that please! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), October 17, 2000.

I have to look at the evidence --Point in fact: These are all newbies in this forum--never saw anyone of them post here before. Add: Joel was missing for a week and you got a good recipe for smoke to draw me back out. I had to sneak out one night and it drives them crazy ! Than you have to look at the calender and we all know what they are planning on November 2, 2000.

Let them talk--Delta, HRT, Seals, Rangers--I've seen them all before. BOO RAH They are just flesh and blood that have been brainwashed to believe they are invincible. Not a chance ! They fatique, bleed and die like any other mammal on the planet. That superiorty complex is their worst enemy and my greatest advantage.

So, go ahead and worship the flag of the whore of Babylon. A whore dressed in red,white, and blue is still a whore. Follow greedy men, Follow them to your graves and never, ever stop and think for yourselves. And if you ever wonder what gave you away--? You people stand out like sore thumbs in a homesteaders forum. These are intelligent people with creative minds. They are not mindless kids with GED's, government issued everything(including IQ's). I'll see ya'll in Texas !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 17, 2000.

REMEMBER IN SOME COUNTRIES YOU DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH. AND THATS ALL THIS FORUM IS ABOUT, YOU ALL REMEMBER THAT ONE. OK?

-- PAULA (EPACO13@EXCITE.COM), October 17, 2000.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 18, 2000.

LOOKS LIKE JANE FONDA IS A LITTLE UPSET.

-- Judy (allsmile@ctnet.net), October 18, 2000.

Who are you calling Jane Fonda? Anyone who doesn't agree with you? Come on dear, grow up a little. We are all sorry for the tragedy of the Cole, and all other loss of life in the military that occurs overseas. What we are also sorry for is the fact that our government sees fit to use our military to "train" on our own people and the fact that our military personnel does not see that it is wrong and against the law. We are also sorry that apparently a number of people on this forum have never read the Constitution or at least do not understand it although it is written plain and simple and anyone with a seventh grade education should be able to understand what it means. The Constitution means quite simply what it says. We do not need anyone to translate it for us.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), October 18, 2000.

i am so thankful that my computer was down yesterday and would not send messages, i wrote a pretty nasty responds to being called an idiot and would have regretted it {that karma thing}.

paula please dont belittle your self so much, you too might regret what you have said one day. a few ? that may shed light on why others feel the way they do. some times more facts will make a point known better.

have you ever had to work in your field all day just to eat?or raised stock to have them die, or worst go to market and not bring enough to cover their feed? or been sitting in your house and had folks show up "to look around".?or had a phone call in the dead of night from a friend begging you to help because her husband is in jail because he believes in things that do not fall under the heading of"normal"?.or sat in a hospital watching your best friend die because he got shot for defending his rights and way of life?.i have.

i have walked the road of"normal" and alot of what i saw i did not like, then i stepped over that line and saw a whole new u.s.a., i am on lists , my family and friends are on them too, we are proud to be on them. i am not unamerican,i just am not for a standing army, a government that thinks they have more rights then i do and can tell me what i can and can not do. i think until you have lived away from the army and tried to make it work you will have blinders on, not a bad thing just a sad thing. your anger is so deep it must have roots else where, just please remember we are all tring to make our lives "work" in what ever way we see fit. i do not condon you, i do not wish you harm i only ask you not to be so harsh in your remarks, and to stop and realize that no place is perfect for everyone and some of us like to {or are forced to}live the way we do.

we are not the "almighty" country we are part of the world, we have no more right to tell others how to live then they us.why do i live in this country? because i was born here , my roots are here and i will stay here, why do you live here and fight for this country and for people like me? if you prefer a country were we all think alike and are "raised" by the government maybe you should consider moving, there are still communist places out there, were the gove. can feed you, house you and if your a good girl throw you bone.

i am willing to listen to your views and try to understand them ,i ask the same from you. thank you

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), October 19, 2000.

Is it too much to ask that if you don't know how to spell something, you look it up in a dictionary? Please capitalize the words that should be, and try using a comma every once in a while. It's hard to prove the intelligence of an argument whehn IT looks lik a 3rd grayder writ IT.

-- JC (survivors00@hotmail.com), October 19, 2000.

JC, And just how smart is it to judge an item by the way it's packaged, as opposed to the content? You sound like a little 4 year old. I can just see your tongue stickin' out.

To the rest of the name callers: The comments made here are made by individuals, and as such, will vary. It's called discussion. There is more than one side to each argument, as opinions can and do vary. A one sided conversation, views wise, isn't as educational, nor as lively, as a one sided, mutual admiration society. My views on the subject aren't nearly as important as my right to express them, read yours, and agree or disagree as I see fit. But to belittle, make fun of and/or name call, just because you don't agree, only shows that you don't have a clear grasp of the topic, and the only way you can contribute is to attack the person instead of their position. I outgrew that in the third grade, and thought that the mean intelligence level here was higher than that. Whatever happened to "We agree to disagree"? Just my two cents on common sense. Y'all take care and play nice. John

-- John D. in Pa. (mrmopar@penn.com), October 19, 2000.

The content includes the package (where do you think manners and appropriate dress come from), and "a four year old with my tongue sticking out"....sounds like name calling to me Johnny Boy. So you aren't immune either....good....for a minute I thought you were perfect. Agree or disagree, the idea that "This is still the best country in the world to live in!", without acknowledging that our freedoms and rights are under severe attack, is ignorant. Best country or not it still sucks to see the Constitution violated and ripped apart by those pledged to protect it, while others sit around on their uneducated asses and say "love it or leave it buddy!". You won't recognize this country in 20 years because of that kind of mindset (ie. as long as the cable works and the beers cold, everythings fine).

-- JC (survivors00@hotmail.com), October 19, 2000.

JC, obviously we are in agreement as far as where this country is headed....except I believe it's going to be a lot fewer than twenty years. I believe it is less than two.

Now, as for the name calling, I asked quite a few questions that NEVER received a reply from the progenitor of the thread, Judy/LAURA, or whatever your real name is, instead it was inferred that I was a Communist, suggested that I leave the country, stated that I despise this country and then called unpatriotic and an IDOT. I looked in the dictionary for some obscure word that perhaps I was unaware of and found none. I realize that all of the insults were not thrown at me alone and I don't mean to make it sound as if I was the only one with whom this person had such a problem , but it's obvious that since she couldn't address anything about Delta Force or any other questions she felt that I was personally attacking her instead of the entire line of garbage that she espouses. The obvious lack of ability to discuss as opposed to just rail in unintelligent and uninformed party line diatribe indicated that there was very little reason to expect or continue an attempt at intelligent discourse. So.... I resorted to something she would understand. In a pretty intelligent manner for an IDOT, I think.

I would like to have a discussion, but it isn't much fun to argue with the furniture on differences of opinion. If there is anyone who is in agreement with Judy/Laura that we should be pleased to live in a country that likes to use the military to fly over houses and kill civilians because they think the Constitution still has merit, I would be happy to DISCUSS our differences of opinion.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 19, 2000.

I'm sorry, I meant PAULA, not Laura. I ask your forgiveness for the mistake.

Also, I don't know if this is proper ettiquette, but Judy emailed me privatly to tell me that the helicopter fly overs are a good thing because people won't do the right thing and turn in their neighbors....Does anyone else see this as dangerous?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 19, 2000.

doreen, i have also received e-mail telling me i deserve what i get and to drop it.i must be hiding from someone or hiding something and to "get a life". i wish i was then at least all the money spent on me would not be such a waste.i hate seeing peoples hard earn money going to such dumb investigations,but it is a persons right to complain. good luck to all.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), October 19, 2000.

The Making of the Military Wife The Good Lord was creating a model for military wives and into his sixth day of overtime when an angel appeared. She said, "Lord, you seem to be having alot of trouble with this one. What's wrong with the standard model?" The Lord replied, "Have you seen the specs on this order?" "She's got to be completely independant, possess the qualities of both father and mother, be a perfect hostess to four or fourty, with an hour's notice, urn on black coffee, handle every emergency imaginable without a manual, be able to carry on cheerfully, even if she's pregnant and has the flu, and she must be willing to move to a new location in any country ten times in seventeen years, and oh yes, she must have six pairs of hands." "The angel shook her head, "six pairs of hands? No way." The Lord continued, "Don't worry. We will make other military wives to help her. We will give her an unusually strong heart so it can swell with pride in her husband's achievements, sustain the pain of separations, beat soundly when it is overworked and tired, and be large enough to say, 'I understand' when she doesn't and say, 'I love you, regardless." "Lord," said the angel, touching his arm gently, "Go to bed and get some rest. You can finish this tomottow." "I can't stop now," said the Lord. "I'm so close to creating something really unique. Already this model heals herself when she is sick, can put up six unexpected guests for the weekend, wave goodbye to her husband from a pier, a runway or a depot, and understand why it's important that he leave." The angel circled the model of the military wife, looked at it very closely and sighed, "It looks fine but it's too soft." "She might look soft," replied the Lord, "but she has the strength of a Lion. You would not believe what she can endure." Finally, the angel bent over and ran her finger across the cheek af the Lord's creation. "There's a leak," she announced. There is something wrong with the construction. I'm not surprised that it has cracked. You are trying to put too much into this model." The Lord appeared offended at the angel's lack of confidence. "What you see is not a leak," he said, "it's a tear." "A tear? What is it there for?" asked the angel. The Lord replied, "It's for joy, sadness, pain, disappointment, loneliness, pride, and a dedication to all the values she and her husband hold dear." "You are a genius!" exclaimed the Angel. The Lord looked puzzled and replied, "I didn't put it there."

author unknown...

-- PACO (epaco13@excite.com), October 19, 2000.

I read this thread over and it reminds me of a cat fight. Let's fall back and discuss the issues without casting aspersions. This is the deal Yes we have more freedom in America than most other countries around the world. Yes, many of our military personnel genuinely want to serve their country and their fellow citizens by preserving freedom. The problems are that like it or not, just because we are still free doesn't mean we will always be so, if the erosion of freedom from the last 75 years continues. Freedom requires vigilance. It requires constant protection through the faithful pursuit of the citizens who enjoy it. Does the concern of citizens on this forum with regard to their perception of the loss of freedom deny the existance of our freedoms? No! To the contrary, It insures the freedoms of future generations. Without the vigilant expression and determined pursuit of freedom by the citizens of this forum and these United States, the freedom that you passionately claim we are the recipients of would most assuredly dissappear. So, do I want to hear about government or terrorist helicopters flying over someones private land? You'd better believe I do? For if we relegate the assertions of our fellow citezens to the wings of ludicrousy, how will we ever know when someone or some group of someones attempts to wrest away the freedom that your husband and others fight to protect. It must also be stated that although the men and women of our armed services have enlisted their aid for the reasons of patriotism, that at some point in the future, the wrath of the military could someday be unleashed upon Americas own citizens. If we are not vigilant, each and everyone of us to preserve freedoms cause. When our military begins to have training sessions in the art of controlling and squelching the rights and privacy of civilians, we should be concerned. This does not mean that every person in the military is out to get us, but it does mean that historically there is a cause for concern that any military organization can turn upon it's own citizens. History is replete with examples, not the least of which is Hitler's Germany. Does this make the military bad, of course not. It means that we must be very careful to preserve the constitional protections provided by our forefather's. Some of the protections are a well armed Militia, a well ordered military that only sees to American interests, and the right of seccession of the various states. The phrase "American interests" in all cases should be interpreted as conservatively as possible and still protect our borders. So do I believe like Joel that there should be no standing army? No, I believe we must have an organization in place to bring to bear the combined efforts of the military and the ever present militia to protect our national interests, but we should not be gallavanting around the globe solving everyone elses problems. We should not be fighting other's civil wars. We should be a shining example of freedom, but allow other nations to find their own way.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), October 19, 2000.

very well said little bit, very well said.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), October 19, 2000.

Welcome Back, LBF ! We have missed you so !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 19, 2000.

Now I'm feeling a bit left out. (pout) Why didn't I get a private e-mail from our celebrity guest speaker ?

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 19, 2000.

The forum that I have read, through this internet site has been very funny to me. We yell about our constitunal rights when we have lost track of them. When they wrote the constitution they said that all men were created equal. they had no mention of women. I have been married for seventeen years and she is probably not equal. She is better, to put up with the army and me for so many years. the army was organized 1n 1775. If you don't think that it was part of our constitution you might be right, but it was before women had the right to vote. Yes I agree that the goverment tries to take away some of our rights and that might be wrong but they are continualy tring to give us more. I will give you a few I dont agree with all of them or sometimes none of them. Gay rights, abortion, kkk rights to adopt a highway and the government put a sign out for the kkk. Freedom to burn the U.S. flag and the list goes on, giving money to those who don't work. You have to give a little to gain in some circumstances. This great nation was founded by great christian men, who wanted the freedoms that they did not have, being ruled by another country. The only way we got these freedoms is through the army that no one wants. I have heard and read many of the articles about the United States using our military to police the states, that is only when keeping people from looting, or a national disaster, or when protests get out of hand. I had to stand guard at a protest for the homosexuals of America, and I did not like this, but in this country they have their rights too. They police certain things that need to be policed that the police cant deal with on their own. this is to protect the majority not the minority. The country we are living in is growing on a daily basis. Some is for the good and some is for the bad. The helicopters flying overhead should not worry you if you are obeying the laws set fourth in our country. If the helicopters flying over head are disturbing your animals im sorry> You need to call your city and put in a complaint. My father in law had a nieghbor that decided he would disobey the law, and grow weed on his property, my father in law drew a map of the exact location, and his problem was gone, thank God for the helicopters. I don't want my children around any drugs. THE END

-- a soldier (blessed@USA.com), October 19, 2000.

THIS IS TO A SOLDIER. BLESSED@USA.COM MANY APPLAUSE TO YOU. THANKS FOR YOUR OPINION; VERY WELL SPOKEN!

-- Paco (epaco@excite.com), October 19, 2000.

I hope half the energy that was put into this debate will be equally applied to voting in the coming election, my, if everyone cared so much about trying to make a change from "the same old, same old" we could get a third party candidate elected for once. Voter apathy causes a tremendous loss of freedom, please vote your heart, but please vote, it does count ! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), October 20, 2000.

Thank you, Doreen, for clarifying that it was not I who entered the fray, yet.

The problem with today's military is they are stressed out. The present administration has cut so much of the meat from our defense budget, yet committed our troops to more hotspots all over the world than all the previous administrations. They are overseas, on ships and on foreign patrol and away from their families for far longer times than that of any previous "peacetime" exercises. Our soldiers are out there, not to defend our constitution, but to defend Clinton's whim of being a world-class jerk-off. These soldiers know if things get tough, they are dead ducks. We have nothing to back them up with. No parts for their equipment, no new equipment, no ammo and no brains. But they also have to deal with the real possibility of getting orders to fire upon their own citizens. It's gotta suck!

We have a standing army in this country. It is our veterans who are on call-up. I do not know one veteran who is sorry for their service and not one of them would want to serve in the current "New Military." Our veterans and their neighbors fight everyday on the homefront to protect our constitutional rights and freedoms from greedy government and not a one of them will ever take action against civillians because of an "executive order." Not one of them have any respect for our current leaders, not one of them will respond to the authority of the U.N. and not one of them will participate in civil action again.

My problem with helicopters flying level with my second story window? Besides pissing off the bears and harrassing the wildlife, it is disturbing the peace, invasion of privacy, a violation of civil rights and a violation of FAA regulations pertaining to safety. It also gave me serious emotional flashbacks of the fear I felt when touring a remote village in South America, the helicopters came in, apparently "recruiting" a new army. We hid in the church terrified of being kidnapped or worse. I just can't help but think those helicopters were curtesy of the U.S.A. for the war on drugs.

If you got proof there are drugs, fine, get a warrant and make a bust. If not, get out of my space, get out of my face, get off my property and spend my tax money on widows and orphans.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), October 20, 2000.

This is my last say, I have a high respect for all the men and woman that serve, and have served my country (that I love). Thank you to all these wonderful citizens. It is comments that I have heard here that really gripe alot of military folks. First it was about the helicopters, than the military. I can only imagine what our guys felt like coming back from Vietnam, and being called baby killers as they stepped off that plane, onto the ground of their beloved country. We are living in sad times people.

-- Judy (allsmile@ctnet.net), October 20, 2000.

Heres my 2 cents.America is great...but not perfect, like anything else human. The price of all this freedom and greatness is eternal vigilence as stated before. To me, that would mean constantly improving what we have and striving to bring about the priciples that this country was founded on, not sitting back with our mouths shut thinking the work is all done. why fight for something you resent people doing? My own father died for this country and the idea of world peace;but before he did, he taught me to always question everything and decide for myself if it is right or wrong and not let anyone tell me what to think.I feel that the constitution was not a statement of fact for the time it was written in, but rather a wish list that is our job to continually work towards.We can't do that quietly; we must hash it out and there will always be someone around who doesn't like it.To sit back and not ever question what our government is doing is Germany, so why bother moving?

-- maureenb (firegirl102@hotmail.com), October 20, 2000.

Judy, Vietnam sucked. What sucked even worse was what happened when we left. Many of us had uncles, brothers, cousins and friends in Vietnam. They were not allowed to fight a just war.

Everyone here on this forum is a defender of the constitution. I don't believe anyone on this forum spit on a Vietnam Vet. Clinton is not using the military to defend our constitution. Instead he is ready to commit us to another Vietnam type "police action" at the drop of another supoena and threat of investigation into his twisted world. He is trying to put our military under the authority of the U.N. Clinton is doing his best to destroy our constitution and would use our military against us civillians for a "police action" if he thought he could get away with it.

The thing with our constitution and the rights, freedoms and responsibilities that go along with it is, we gotta use it or lose it.

We have the illusion free speech, but people are harrassed and jailed everyday in this country for exercising it. Others are told to just shut up.

We have the right to bear arms. Except in some cities. Other places only if you are registered and fingerprinted and the cops or feds say you can or if it is the right kind of gun. Even if you live in a fairly constitutional state, and you have too many guns for the feds to feel comfortable, they have no problem coming in and gunning you down for exercising that right. If you exercise both the freedom of speech AND the right to bear arms...well you might as well toss all your other rights out the window because you won't be using any of them!

The current political agenda is to destroy our sovereignity and our rights against unlawful search and seizure, and our rights of privacy under the guise of "war on drugs." If we wish to exercise our right of free speech to speak out against it, we are defending our constitution against totalitarian government exesses, we are not defending drug abuse.

In what way are the boys in the Korean DMZ defending the Constitution of the United States?

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), October 20, 2000.

To answer your question Laura, Our solders are on the korean dmz to defend south koreas rights to freedom from north korea, and if they wern't there then north korea would try and take them over, then we would possibly be in a world war. Our being in Korea at all is to stop the spread of communism.

-- Paco (epaco@excite.com), October 20, 2000.

Paco, I know about Korean politics, and I know the UN party line about how we need to be the world police.

Again, I ask the question, in what way are our boys in the Korean DMZ defending the Constitutiion of the United States?

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), October 20, 2000.

Would I spit on a vet ? Never, but wasn't that war really about culling a 80% negro army ? Didn't work, did it ? Now it is a 95% black army and I still wouldn't even dream of spitting on them !

But now I am faced wih shooting them. I have read that some of these men are your sons, daughters,and grandchildren--husbands ? Don't think for one second that this fact doesn't bother me. I think you might suggest to them that they do not fire on their own countrymen and I will return the favor.

However, I cannot allow them to over run natural law--no matter what flag they fly ! Truth is unchanging law, that is natural law. I defend men who say " enough of the bull" sometimes I may not even agree with them but their way is more correct than murders and liars.

So, as a peaceful end to this arguement--I might suggest---Throw off that idea that one idea is better than another, that America is better than everyone else and that your commander is smarter than you because he gets drunk in the officers club.

I can only plead to you, after that we follow the DEAD end road where no one wins--mothers wail, fathers curse God and the winner is the mortician. I'm sure we could work it out if you refuse to follow rank--you know --the guy 40 miles away who never gets shot at ! Think about it ?

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 20, 2000.

It has been so well put by one of our great founding fathers.

"A people can loose their freedoms in a moment, and not miss them for a century."

We must remain seadfast, unmoveable in our guard over our freedom.

For if we will not stand and defend it we will surely loose it.

-- Jason Foster (jkfoster@mail.com), October 21, 2000.

As I sat here reading these various comments I felt very sad for many of you. You have missed the point....entirely. Citizens must be ever vigilent, ever ready to defend their rights and freedoms from both without and within. That is one of the primary reasons they (our Forefathers) gave each and every American the RIGHT and the RESPONISIBLITY to keep and bare Arms. It was not only to protect us from outside aggression (the purpose of a standing army) but to protect us from within (ie. OUR OWN GOVERNMENT)! It is our individual responsibility to pull in hard on the choke collar that we should always maintain on those elected officials we send forth to represent us. If they are not doing their job properly...then FIRE THEM! Since the 1970's the size of our government has increased three fold. That's not the military either, we are currently at PRE-1940's level there...and we know what happened a year later. We got caught with our pants down). Yet all we hear is the continued whinning about what we want the government to do for us. We want more and more and more done for us and are (incredibily) willing to give up our individual sovereignty for cushy guarenties of welfare and handouts etc. Nothing in life is guarenteed! Not even life itself! One reader commented on how a young girl she knew who was hooked on drugs joined the Army to go into rehab. Lets look at this young ladies decision shall we. She left a wild and carefree lifestyle where there is NO accountability, NO responsibility, NO leadership, NO ADULT supervision, NO morality, NO FUTURE! To try to become an worth while adult under the strict supervision of professional leadership. Where people live by a code of conduct, honor and integrity....sort of reminds you of what being an American is all about. I applaude her attempt, but it will not be an easy road for her. She will have to entirely remake her life under strict dicipline and accountability. Many try....and just as many fail. These young men and women joining the military today are striving to find the kind of leadership, courage and honor that was once in every American household. Where parents worked hard to raise honest, hardworking, God fearing children. Where God, Country and Family were the watchwords. Look how far they must go to find that today. As for the sniveling coward that felt military personnel are not a cut above and deserve nothing better than a gold watch and SSI. You Sir (I use the term loosely) are talking out the hind end of your mule! They do deserve more, ARE a cut above and should be compensated properly for what they have surrendered in order for you to be able to shoot your mouth off as you have. We may well be the greatest nation on this planet, with the highest standard of living, greatest freedoms, with the strongest military but our most valuable commodity (our service men and women) who guarentee your freedom are NOT receiving top pay. In fact they (American servicemen and women) are about 25th in the world for military pay. Men and women who stand ready to pay the ultimate sacrifice must apply for Welfare, Wic, and Food Stamps to ensure that their children are fed properly. And that is not just young service families. I had over 20 years of dedicated service and still quilified for these services for my family. My youth was spent working HARDER than ANY CIVILIAN I have ever met, in jungles, deserts, frozen wastes, isolated commands and lonely posts. My pay back for twenty plus years of dedicated service is a worn out body, permanent disabilities, a compromised immune system (Gulf War Syndrome), failing health, and a thankless country served. But it is still, with all its faults.....the best country there is on this planet. If there was another one better, that is where I would be. So step back for a second and revel in all the freedoms you have and remember.....THEY ARE NOT FREE, and if you have not paid for your freedoms yourself....then YOU OWE SOMEONE WHO DID!

-- Steve (sln7001@humboldt.edu), October 21, 2000.

Steve, I sure hope you check back on this! You need to go to Gulf War Vets.com all one word, sorry. It's the FACT that the military is not being properly used to defend the Constitution and our interests only that result in the feelings being expressed here that you perceive as anti- military. The military has been being destroyed (including areas of pay and benefits) by a GOVERNMENT that is not adhering to the mandates of the Constitution. Don't blame it on "civilians" for being ticked that the goverment uses the military like their own personal Gestapo. That is just the way it is now. That girl isn't going to be fighting for the US when the heroin has finished leaving her veins, she most likely will be serving the interests of the UN. Which BTW are completely and utterly communist. That used to mean un-American.

I am mad at the government for what it has done to the individuals who THOUGHT they were serving this country. I am upset with INDIVIDUALS who can't see the truth that the military is being polarized to treat the citizenry, of which they are a part, as dangerous or unintelligent people. The only care the "soldiers" need take any more is to minimize "the number of people that need to be killed".....That is a quote from the PR guy at Operation Urban Warrior while explaining how necessary it was that soldiers train with foreign troops to round up US CITIZENS.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 21, 2000.

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH STEVE; BRAVO! AND MANY MANY APPLAUSE! YOU SAID IT FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE BEEN TRING TO GET THROUGH TO ALOT OF THE "IDOTS" THAT RESPONDED SO NEGITIVELY AND SEEM TO HAVE NO RESPECT FOR OUR GREAT COUNTRY. I DO KNOW HOW YOU FEEL, BECAUSE MY HUSBAND WAS IN THE ARMY FOR 15YEARS AND HE IS DISABLED TOO. IT DOES FEEL LIKE OUR GOVERNMENT DESERTED US AS FAR AS COMPENSATION IS CONCERNED. IF ONLY PEOPLE COULD ONLY REALIZE HOW LITTLE OUR ACTIVE AND RETIRED SOLDERS ARE SUPPOSE TO LIVE ON, NOW THATS SAD. I DO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL YOU SAID. IT'S A GOOD FEELING TO KNOW THAT THEIR ARE SOME INTELLIGENT, EXPERIENCED WRITERS TO THIS AD OUT THERE. PAULA

-- Paula (epaco13@excite.com), October 21, 2000.

Being a soldier is a chosen profession much like choosing to be a farmer. So, please tell me again why you deserve something more than a citizen because I'm not seeing it !

Grandpa (foot soldier) fought in World War I--came home--no syndrome--no benefits. Dad fought in the Burma theater World War II--came home--no syndrome--got a G. I. Bill and never used it. My Brother was a Marine Air Trafic Controller during the Viet Nam era--retired when Reagan forced the military controllers to replace striking controllers--came home--no syndrome--never used benefit one. So why is it you got a failing body, Steve ? And tell me more about this syndrome ? What syndrome occurs from a picnic in Kuwait ? Is that toxic oil syndrome ?

Your wrong about me being ungrateful. I have the fullest dedication for men who died in battle. However, as evidenced by your letter--you didn't. So your just another man doing what your supposed to do. You got up went to work and came home. The so called war you referred to was a camping trip complete with picnic for starving enemies. My nephew, who did go, refers to it as the Golf War and Kuwait had some really nice coarses. Forgive me if I don't see your great sacrifice, but your nothing special--just a normal man, and you get your watch and SSI check. I don't mean to make light of your health but I believe it is called getting old syndrome and we all have it !

Now, about the money. Because that is really what you all so called "Super Patriots" are really boring me to death with, isn't it ? Soldiers are paid very well considering the education it takes to be one. I'm sorry you couldn't manage your money, but you always had more than the average american. Yes, it is difficult to raise a family in america on what we make--I agree, but we all did it. Now tell me again why you think your different because I'm still failing to see any of your points ?

Ungrateful Nation, Huh ? Next time you want gratification from me than you'll have to ask me if I care about what you do. If you asked me ---Should I go to Kuwait to defend some multi-billionaire sheik ?--I would have said --no way and this whole arguement becomes a mute point. As it turns out, you expect me to pay you for something I could care less about. I think I'm being generous ofering you the watch when all you should get is the SSI check !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 22, 2000.

You chose to be in the Army,you chose to learn how to jump off a tower roll under wire and shoot a gun,so if you get worn out and the body goes so be it. Ever go into a feed store and watch the "old"farmers walk?most cant stand up straight or are missing fingers to worst whole arms,you think they cry syndrome? what one would fit them? Ever talk to a chicken farmer who as a kid dusted chickens with powder only to find out is causes cancer?again what syndrome?look we are not talking war time here we are talking YOU CHOSE it.

have you ever been to an Amish farm?watch them work and i mean work all day 6 days a week,ever hear them say were is my check after 20 yrs? if we all followed the armys idea of work at 40 we would all sitting back waiting to die,no thank you!

what kind of shape do you think i will be in at the age of 40? well lets see,so far broke a hand real bad tring to catch a hog, lifting 50lb.feed bags does wonders for your back,lets not forget the hay and straw too. Water weights 8lbs. a gallon so in winter add carring 5 gal. buckets 2 xs a day to 4 pens and you come up320lbs. of weight that needs moving, how much does your back-back weight?how often do you even carry it? Do not forget the stress, i cant expect a pay check once a month,nor do i. We live on what we are lucky enough to make,we do not expect it or do i expect a check in 5 yrs. for what i CHOSE to do. Do i cry syndrome,worn out body ,poor pay?HELL NO i chose my "job" i will never regret it for a minute. Please do not send me a check or watch ,i do not much like hand outs. i am proud of who i am and as long as we eat and have a roof i will know we have the right move for our family.

I do honor those who have died for us , i do feel they deserve respect but not anymore then a policeman,fireman or average man who has died helping others,defending thier rights or keeping their families safe.HEY enough with the idiot stuff, learn respect for others, and you will gain respect.

sure do like all those nasty e-mails over the last few days, computer has been acting funky{Joel must be your friends up to their good old tricks} and i have not been able to get back to you all, then again there is work to be done and animals to be feed and they are grateful for farmers, they know where thier food comes from.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), October 22, 2000.

I'm feeling bad these days. I think it is a combination of Ruby Ridge, Miami, and Trinidad syndromes. They say everything is bigger in Texas so it must be the Trinidad syndrome that finally got to me. Not to mention my AFD (acute farming disorder)has been aggravating me lately.

So, Doreen ? You got a website for these ? Where do I sign up for benefits ? How much do I get a month ?

Because that's what this whole thread was about--Mine, Mine, Mine. Sick really, but more sad than sick. The word grateful expressed by the question, How much ? The word respect downgraded to money. The words duty, honor, and service beaten to an unprecedented depth of deplorablity by the question---where is mine ? However, you have to respect the fact that during the whole serade of flag waving they kept that one common goal in mind --MORE MONEY !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 22, 2000.

Renee and Joel, here's the thing about the Golf War, which wasn't a war, and we had no business being there PERIOD....Our government, yes the very one that you demand to take care of you, found it to be expedient to test out chemical, and biological warfare on all of these super bright soldiers who seem to think that they are better than everyone else for being unobservant enough to continue taking the meds they doled out when they saw their fellows getting sick.

I know seveeral Golf War vets, and I know two of them who are very ill and 6 who saw the effects of the PROTECTIVE meds and pretended to take them while they actually dropped them into the sand and ground them down. One of the vets that is sick came home at 24 years od age and cannot be further than five minutes from a bathroom. He has to carry a roll of toilet paper and plastic bags with him as well as a change of clothes. What did he do there in the Gulf? He was part of an anti-scud crew, the firing pins were bad on the Patriot missles and he got the job of smacking them with a hammer having the powders or whatever fall all over him every time. Also, he took his meds like a good little soldier. Does he think the people of this country owe him some great debt? NO!!!! He sees the thing for what it was, a way to bring US troops under the command of foreign officers and a way to kill a lot of people for oil.

Joel, sorry, but I don't have a web site for you. You are experiencing the fallout of a destructive government and a morally bankrupt country. Maybe we can file a class action suit....like money can fix it.

Someday maybe I will relate my experience with the military. Luckily I snapped to before I got brainwashed.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 22, 2000.

This is just a general comment on the quality of the military, but before I proceed, I want to say that I do have respect for those who faithfully serve and PROTECT OUR COUNTRY. My husband was in the Air Force for ten years, his dad was in for twenty-seven, my dad was in the Army for a few years. So I've been a military wife. There are a lot of good, patriotic, hard-working men and women in the military. There are also a lot of people I wouldn't willingly have on my property. I have a nephew in the army right now. After he'd been in for two or three years, he visited us, and one of my daughters, half- teasing, said she was thinking about enlisting. My nephew emphatically said she should NOT, that it was not a good place for her to be. He also said that the enlisted women were not good wife candidates. This from a young man who, while a nice young man, was not raised in a Christian home and doesn't have very high standards. But the young women he knew in the army weren't even up to his standards morally. I know that the military has always been viewed by a lot of youngsters as an opportunity to carrouse and generally go a little wild (as long as it doesn't affect their work, no one really cares). What's making things worse now is that the older personnel are retiring or just getting out, and for the most part are being replaced by products of the public school system who have corrupt morals and no idea of the history of this country, and no clue at all about the constitution. This makes them perfect tools for a corrupt government. Someone commented above that if we didn't have a standing army, in case of need the young conscripts would be un- trained cannon fodder. The original idea of a citizen militia (which Switzerland has) was that ALL able-bodied men of the appropriate ages were to be armed and meet regularly for training, even in peace time. Therefore, no need for a standing professional army, and no division between civilians and military. With no division, you would have a hard time finding military willing to shoot at their own countrymen, which we now obviously have. You also would not need to call in the national guard in times of civil disturbance if all the local armed citizens could be called on. I found it interesting that in the latest issue of Backwoods Home (hubby picked it up on the newstand) there is a lengthy article on why this country is on the verge of a dictatorship -- and unfortunately, the arguments all hold water. (Not that I didn't already know most of what they were saying, thanks in part to well-informed patriotic people on this forum like Little Bit, Doreen, and Joel.) The article is to be continued in the next issue, perhaps then they will address the role that a brain-washed amoral demoralized military will play in all of us losing what freedoms we still have left. I know that is strong words, and some of you (new readers who obviously haven't been here long enough to know where people are coming from before you start abusing them) may think it right to slam me. But as I said, I've been a military wife, too. My husband lost a lot of illusions while he was in the military -- he went in largely out of patriotism. I've known and do know a lot of former military who were in for the right reasons, and are greatly saddened by what has happened to this country -- and wouldn't go back in. None would serve under the UN flag. I also know people who were in Vietnam, and some have made something of themselves (by the grace of God), and others are first- class self-centered complainers bent on having a pity party while being supported by others so they can go fishing or live on a mining claim out in the desert. (That's my vent at a couple of people I know!) Unfortunately, their behavior is typical of an entire self- centered generation, just most of that generation didn't have quite as good an excuse -- but believe me, if they could think of one, they used it! As far as the silly comments that if people don't like this country, they should go to another one -- the people you are talking to LOVE this country! It is going down the tubes at a terrifying rate, and they are trying to do what they can to save it!! If we aren't allowed to criticize the problems, they will continue to grow and overwhelm us and before very long we won't even be free to do that much. This has been one of the nastiest threads I have seen on this forum, and I hope that the new people will *quietly* observe and read for a while to get the tone in which people are usually addressed here before they speak up again. And hopefully will have a better understanding of where we really stand before they start attacking people out of thin air.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), October 22, 2000.

What, are all of you mad...or just missing the point...its all too late, the apathetic shoppers of the usa have failed... blame yourselves for putting up with the 1st freedom stripped away in the name of protecting the people from their neighbor, its children from free thought. go on...keep shopping, buy more worthless dung for your temporary home and temporary lifestyle. the people of the united states follow blindly, follow words. that lazy apptitude for understand and involving oneself with goverment has now totally failed...actually it was the 50's when it really failed...or was it when we raped and killed the indians for this land...or was it when we stold oil from africa in 94-95...or was it when we placed our first mc donnads on mexico, or was it when we paid sadam h. to kill the kurds in 85-88..or was it when we paid ben ladin to stop the once ussr because we beat them in weapons production and use...or was it when naftaq went to mexico to steal the jobs from higher paid us jobs and started paying 35 cents an hour to starveing homelss mexicians who will take the job and long hours, and underpay and rapid fire rate because the usa has abused mexico economicly for so long that they just don't have a choice anymore...just don't have a choice any more. fuck your so called freedom...i remember hitler and how his social reform kept

-- jody m wineberg (dancer@hotmail.com), December 15, 2001.

Wow, talk about pulling up a thread from the past!!! This should be fun. ;>)

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 15, 2001.

hee hee Diane, I was thinking the same thing! Not going to touch this with a ten foot pole!

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), December 15, 2001.

I am a new private in the army and for all of those people that believe that the military is worhtless or just totally rip up on it should stop and think for a second. What would happen if everyone in the military just said f*** it, and they all quit or stopped defending this country. Would you be the one to step up and take their places or sit back and watch us all go under? I think you are all a bunch of cowards. Sure, with all the freedoms we have now you can completely disrespect the government or just about anything without any serious consequences, but look at some of the third world countries. If you even say anything remotely bad about your husband, brother, or father they can down right kill you in the streets without any punishment at all. What do you think the US would be like if that happened here on a regular basis? I bet you don't wanna imagine it, you can't imagine it because as long as their is a military like ours it won't happen. I would pay all the money in the world to see people like you become a citizen in one of those countries and watch to see what happens in the first few days. Not even days, minutes. You couldn't survive a second over there. With all those freedoms come a price and obviously you aren't willing to pay that price. You take your freedoms for granted. I wish just for a few years this country would just turn to a monarchy, i would love to see all the close-minded people get what they deserve. I defend this country for anyone. I am proud to do it. I don't care what you believe in, what you look like, how you act, but you should show some respect towards the men and women that stand up for what they believe in. Right now, if not for the military, we would all be speaking spanish or even german. Not by choice, but by chance. Think about this, what if you saw your family being tortured or beaten, would you be willing to pick up a weapon and defend them or just sit back and watch? I would hope you would defend them without thought, that in essence is the same as the military. Everyone here is family and i would defend it to the death if that is what it took. Thanks for letting me speak my piece. Oh wait, i don't have to ask for thanks for speaking thats correct it's my right to say whatever i want.

-- David (d_dinardo@yahoo.com), February 21, 2002.

I'm wondering WHERE this came from! Oy vey! Talk about rehashing old news!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 21, 2002.

Okay, so I'm reading along on this thread without noticing the date and I come upon a post. So there I am totally agreeing, and saying to myself this is exactly what I would write, when I scroll down and see that I did write it. Glad to know I still agree with myself.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), February 21, 2002.

Watch it there, private David. You're making some slight generalizations. Be careful or Ranger Chuck just might have to drop you for pushups until he gets tired of watching... (:-)

Lots of folks on this forum have been shot at and spilled blood for the country. Nice to hear you're patriotic and all, but don't assume everyone here isn't.

-- (reply@mission4me.com), February 21, 2002.

"I defend this country for anyone. I am proud to do it. I don't care what you believe in, what you look like, how you act, but you should show some respect towards the men and women that stand up for what they believe in."

David, Thank You! AND, you have my utmost respect. God Bless you -- and all those who serve.

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), February 21, 2002.