Why some people are confused by the Bible:

I found this in The Catalyst (Salt Lake City) and offer it here without comment.But it does seem pertinent for some of the discussions here.

Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding Gods law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how best to follow them. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this? I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Edxodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10) it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I dont agree. Can you settle this? Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that Gods word is eternal and unchanging.

-- Jd (belanger@tds.net), August 22, 2000

Answers

Jd, I have seen this before. I was really surprized that nobody posted it! Be prepared for the longest thread ever.

I personally really struggle with the shellfish, as it's one of my favorite food types.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 22, 2000.

i guess this shows how a few words can and do have so many meanings.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 22, 2000.

This should be interesting . I do wonder if it will be a little tamer due to the author ? God Bless I think ?

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), August 22, 2000.

Perhaps a Rabbi could better explain Jewish Law. As a christian, not ever having been a Jew under the law, it does not apply to me. This is not a problem nor a contradiction for those who accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. As no man could possibly keep the law, the concept of Grace is made manifest. I would point out that to perfectly understand the Holiness of God, it is helpful to look at Jewish Law to see the fultilty of mans attempt to "approach" God through his own means.

God's word is eternal and unchanging. Christ was prophesied throughout the old testament, no changes there. I am not without humor, but think this is a cheap shot at the Bible, faith and Dr.Laura. Sounds cute, but very little substance or understanding. I do not claim to know how the Jewish faith settles these matters, or what their understanding of them is, but I can tell you as a born again christian it is perfectly understandable. In fact, like pieces of a puzzle, without the whole lot put in place, it looks like a scrambled mess. But once you apply yourself to the task at hand, an amazing "picture" emerges. From start to end. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 22, 2000.

So what meanings can selling a daughter or buying slaves have besides what they literally say? God thinks slavery is OK even tho homesexuality isn't? Wow!

-- J. (earthfarm@aol.com), August 22, 2000.

This has been around for over a year and can't believe its wasting space here. I wish that religion didn't matter to so many here. Geez. What a waste of time. Sigh. Split hairs somewhere else, unless there is room for those of other beliefs (I think there could be here if they spoke up) and those of no beliefs( who think you're all looney toons). We'll know on that last day won't we?

Speak up, you of other beliefs!

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), August 22, 2000.

J, which really puts the question of oysters in it's right perspective!

Maybe it should be: Why some people are confused by Dr. Laura!

Removing tongue from cheek, now, so I can taste my shellfish,

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 22, 2000.

Hey JD, You did not give the reins of the magazine over to your son Steve when he was but a small child , but waited until he had matured enough to have understanding of the operation of your business. As he was growing in stature and age you probably introduced him to more and deeper truths about life and business both. In the same way , Almighty God took out from a pagan world a man (Abram ) and began the slow process of setting apart a people holy unto himself.By thr time of Moses, Almighty God revealed himself to the Isrealites through mighty deeds and wonders to deliver them from the bondage of egyptian slavery. During the time of wandering in the desert he revealed to them a set of Laws, precepts and principals which, by obeying they would become a peculiar people, not sold into pagan idolatry, but seperated from the nations around them.Many of the laws seem contrary. I know , but in the context of the life of middle eastern peoples, it was a starting point for the process of seperation that would lead to the cvoming of the Messiah, who would come into the world to save sinful mankind from the penalty of their sins. It says in the book of Galatians that the law was a scool teacher to lead us unto Christ. If you are looking at the laws of the Old Testament as a way to measure righteousness you will fall short. The real test is measure yourself against Christ Jesus.Everything else is not relevant ...Almighty God has a litmus test: Do you trust in the shed blood of His only begotten son to be the only way to be accepted by Him? If not, then any discussion of Old Testament law will be a useless wrangling over words, profiting no one, angering many.God has revealed Himself to mankind and revealed his plan of redemption via progressive revelation. I encourage all those who dont believe to "progress" a little farther into the scriptures and contemplate the whole message. It really is a wonderful story of how much our wise and powerful Father in heaven loves us. Do you know him? Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.You can argue with me or the other Believers on this forum ( btw- Brothers and Sisters, some of you really have a wonderful gift for communicating your faith ) but it is ultimately a decision you make alone and stand alone before the throne to give an account of yourself.If you dont believe that then you have more severe problems than what Dr. Laura thinks about homosexuals or what some Dr. Laura basher thinks about her!.......I'm done. Mike

-- Mike (mstydale@aeroinc.net), August 22, 2000.

I have the armor at the ready! Perhaps the largest reason that people are confused by the Bible is that they don't have the spirit of God in Christ Jesus dwelling in them. Also, perhaps they don't read it.

To quote Mark Twain, "It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma." If you don't know "who done it" personally how can you understand why?

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 23, 2000.

I have no confusion about the bible. Amtrak time tables maybe.

-- Hendo (redgate@echoweb.net), August 23, 2000.

That was good, Hendo!

I just realized that some people might think I am saying I understand it all, and that is certainly not the case. I don't, I understand more than I did last week, through studying and praying and meditating on His word, but I surely don't understand the whole bible completely. It's God's Word and He reveals more of it to you as you grow in Him, but I personally don't think that any human can have complete understanding until we are perfected in Christ.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 23, 2000.

What bothers me is not just the inconsistencys but that the major religons are so dripping with blood! How many wars in history? But of course the Pope did briefly apologize for some of the churches past behavior! With a past like that they want to save my soul?....Kirk.....P.S. I'm with Anne. I wish everone would speak up with all kinds views.

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), August 23, 2000.

I did ask that in all seriousness! Does it mean what it says? What other context can those things be taken in?

-- J. (earthfarm@aol.com), August 23, 2000.

i will only address the things i remember . in school we were told we must believe in the whole bible we must not question it or dout itor only except part of it.well the problem i have is this.... if it is gods word why has it been changed so much? and how does anyone know for sure it is real?.

i live my life by what i see ,feel,hear,smell and touch w/ the underlining belief i am in control,not some possible made up "man" who causes me pain, fear and all the other negative things just to prove a piont that "he "can do good too.

how does a god fearing person explain to a sick child that it is gods will for them to be this way ,or a starving family that god has them in his heart? i sure dont want a" person" like that on myside. instead i do not fear my "god" {the laws of nature and karma} i work w/ them to the best of my ability and except them for what they are {cycles of life moving forward but always keeping the past in mind able to be altered but not changed}.

i think other people who feel this way do not say it because they have been told it is not right and they will go to hell...oh yah god forgives everybody...then why is there hell? could it be a part of a cycle allowing you to feel the pain you caused to another so the cycle will not be repeated and as a entity you can move forward and create a new cycle always improving but always rememberingthe past?

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 23, 2000.

Jesus died for our sins so we no longer have to live by the law. Praise the Lord! He was the perfect sacrifice. I truthfully don't see how anyone could follow the laws of the old testament. Thank God we don't have to for salvation!

-- bwilliams (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), August 23, 2000.

It isn't God's will that you be sick; as a matter of fact, poverty, sickness, etc are clearly stated as curses of the law in Lev....God gives you a choice: choose life or death. Remember the Lord's prayer: "thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven." Everybody knows that one. There is no sickness in heaven. There IS a devil (the lord of this earth since Adam chose to turn it over to him), who enjoys putting sickness on people, and having God blamed for it. God doesn't have the measles or cancer in heaven. It is pretty easy to disprove something based on faith, especially when the practioners are human; I wouldn't feel too good about yourselves. Certain Christian religions really get off on martyrism and have glorified sickness as "God's will" when in fact it is very clear that it isn't God's will. Just another way the lord of this world destroys and degrades faith. Like Doreen implied, how can you understand something that you don't want to understand, but really only want to disprove. That is easy to do.

Take your shots if that is what you need to feel good about yourself or justify a behavior...but try to think exactly why you are doing so...to what end? What do you gain? What is the purpose? What is the real motivation?

Like I said before, I have tomatoes to harvest and put up.

-- JimR (jroberts1@cas.org), August 23, 2000.

I agree that the Old Testament was a learning experiment for Gods' people and they learned as they went. As it was stated, we don't follow the Old Testament literally anymore. Why is it not the same for the New Testament? Shouldn't we be progressing as God would have wanted, the same as our ancient ancestors, instead of taking everything literal? I don't think we're even close to what Jesus would have hoped for us. As far as the Old Testament, I believe the Hasadic Jews, would have to differ with alot of Christians. So it begs to ask the question, who is correct?

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), August 23, 2000.

I've been often misunderstood in the past about this. I really do believe the bible has considerable truth and wisdom in it for us all. It is also a profoundly mysterious work, but thats a good thing. For those of us with inquiring minds who seek to understand the depths, it gives us alot of that and leads to a deeper understanding of the whole.

I also have a profound respect for Jesus, just as I do for Buddha, Krishna and others.

Doreen essentially called me a liar in a recent thread for pointing out that each of us will read the bible and get a different meaning from the same words. I honestly don't see how it can be any other way. Even amongst yourselves you don't agree on the meaning of this or that verse. Each of us represent a unique perspective on the world and we percieve things somewhat differently. Thats just a fact. Rather than try to explain it away or deny it, it seems wiser to incorporate it into our faith. Deny it and you effectively render yourself both deaf and dumb. VIVA LA DIFFERENCE!

If a person is a pagan for example its not a safe assumption that they have no moral compass and have nothing valuable to offer in a spiritual discussion. By listening as well as sharing we might all be able to deepen our understanding of the essential things of life the bible speaks of. Instead the reaction of some, both here on this board and others, is to send the dissenter nasty e-mails, and publicly and privately impugn their integrity and sincerity. Thats counterproductive and does not serve the cause of Christ well.

Truth is truth. Wisdom is wisdom. It can be spoken and perceived by someone who is not of "The Faith" as well as by someone who is. If the bible is your guidepost to life and has helped you along the way GOOD! It is equally good if the Gita or the Dhammapadda has helped someone else along the way.

Methinks we make a grievous error when we discount what another believes merely because they don't share the same religious or spiritual affiliations. Many Christians are so quick to judge the content of anothers heart because they may not call themselves Christian or who may think differently than themselves, that they drive people away in droves. Personally I believe the resurgence of Wicca as a spiritual path and the rise in Satanism is a direct result via backlash of fundamentalist Christianity. The result is unfortunately that people reject the bible and Christ in addition to Christianity.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 23, 2000.

Who is correct ? To me anyone can be what ever your religion or belief is .You don't have to agree with me or my neighbor .Deep in side do you feel full ? Can you sleep at night knowing you did your best to be kind , charitable ,considerate and an all around good person ?

I would much rather live next to a person who believes in karma and is a good person than someone who says they are christian and then stabs you in the back .

When you look at the whole picture I think it is hard not to believe in a power stronger and wiser than us .How was earth formed ? The universe ? Animals ? I know science has a bunch of answer , but how did that first piece of something get there to start it all ?

I don't have many answers as I am just opening my eyes wide to religion .I was raised Catholic but didn't give it alot of thought .As I grow older I am seeking out the Lord for answers , and to help me become a better person .Threads like these are so very interesting to me , so keep them up .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), August 23, 2000.

There is so much here that could be addressed, but it is not even possible to do so. Even though I ache to do so. I will only say this for your consideration. When considering Christianity and christians, remember we have been called primarily to do ONE thing....point the way to salvation through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

That we live, learn and are blessed in the process is not the point. That we struggle, fail and experience heartache is not the point. That we suffer hatred, condemnation and ridicule is not the point. Even that we acquire wisdom and knowledge is not the point. The point is eternity and where it is spent... that is the point.

Christ died for all, all are given a choice. It is a personal choice. No one or no thing can choose for you. Eternity is in your own hands.

As an aside, the idea that christians are such a pain about insisting Christ in the only way to salvation. We have no choice. When I stand before my Lord & Savior, He will testify for me because I testified for him before man. Trust me when I say it is not in me, without the spirit of God, to care so deeply for the soul of his creation. My nature would not prod me to subject myself to ridicule, hostility and disbelief. It is only my desire to serve and obey Him that causes me to do so. To think otherwise, that somehow christians have nothing better to do than pester you with the message of Jesus Christ, certainly misses the point. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 23, 2000.

JimR i am not taking shots at you, i am tring to explain how i see the world around us and beyond. i do not want you to accept what i believe in if you dont want to any more then i would believe in your ideas if i dont want to.

this is not a shot at you ....the one BIG reason i dont believe in jesus is because of the way alot not all ,of the people who do act. i thought to be catholic ment to be a teacher of god and his ways, not to a judge and jury. i have very close relitives who go to church every sunday, love god and give money for every cause the preist asks, and then stab me in the back. they judge me not on who i am but who they think i am,the degrade others for their beliefs ,feelings get hurt and families torn apart all in the name of god?

would you know me if i walked up to you? would you know if i were christian? no.... but you would know i am a caring loving mom and wife who would gladly give you my last bite of food. i am a good person who is only looking for answers to questions that have never been answered.

if i ofend i am sorry if i make you look deep in your soul for the truth then may your journey be a good one.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 23, 2000.

Wendy, thank you, you have a tremendous gift for explaining things in a gracious manner!

John, I did not send you any nasty e-mails; also, I did not call YOU a liar. I said you were offering a lie. There is a difference. I don't think you are doing it intentionally.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 23, 2000.

Here's a little something that might be enlightening here. It speaks to the literal following of "the law" and the strict interpretation of scripture, I think:

Matthew 12: 1-14

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. When the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath. He said to them, Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him or his companions to eat, but only for the priests. Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and yet are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. But if you had know what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.

He left that place and entered their synagogue; a man was there with a withered hand, and they asked him, Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath? so that they might accuse him. He said to them, Suppose one of you has only one sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath; will you not lay hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a human being than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Then he said to the man, Stretch out your hand. He stretched it out, and it was restored, as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.

*** I think Jesus saw his faith as living, evolving, and meaningful. I think we somehow got ourselves stuck somewhere after that.

Just my $.02.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 23, 2000.

Doreen: You say "you go on to proffer the same lie as previously...ie.

"There are alot of ways these things can be looked at and each one will yield a different perspective of the same truth."

Please explain to me what part of that self evident statement is a lie.

Maybe you should consider going into law. You say John told a lie but hes not a liar. How can that be?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 23, 2000.

Renee , i am sorry for your relatives , I think we are related ! I too have relatives that go to church and then come home and swear and drink and the list goes on .These people are not true christians , and do not judge god by them .If you are looking for answer try to find a church you can always not go back .

There are many people on this forum with much wisdom to share .Ask and you shall receive .You sound like a wonderful person , don't let anyone get you down consider the source .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), August 23, 2000.

Forgot to mention---No Doreen, you did not send me nasty e-mails. I did not say you did nor did I mean to imply you did.

I have recieved several e-mails from others on this board who have said they'd prefer to share their thots with me privately since they'd previously offered dissenting opinions regarding religious topics and were privately cyber-stoned into silence. I know that kind of behavior isn't representative of the many thoughtful, sincere people here however that type of thing happens all too often in the name of Christ. Its counterproductive and foolish.

Its not a crime to diagree. Sometimes its actually productive. But to be intentionally insulting and derogatory to stifle honest debate is spiritually criminal as far as I'm concerned.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 23, 2000.

Doreen,

Further, John did not say that you had sent him nasty e-mails; he said that some people had sent dissenters nasty e-mails. I have recieved terrible, vicious e-mails from people who chastised me for not being Christian, and I mentioned this to John. I have never, on this forum, impunged Christians for their beliefs. I simply stated in an earlier thread that I was a good person and managed to be so without being a Christian. I will say that the people who sent me those e-mails had darn sure better hope that Jesus died for their sins, 'cause they've got plenty of 'em. Good Christians - indeed!

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), August 23, 2000.

This is for those who see people calling themselves Christians, but not acting like Jesus Christ. There are a lot of these people, perhaps the majority of those who claim to be Christians. Remember there is an active battle going on between spiritual forces, between good and evil. Satan's favorite trick is to get people to thinking they are good Christians, when in fact they haven't got a clue. So the thing we each have to do is to keep our eyes on Jesus Christ, NOT on the people who claim His name. Even genuine Christians are still fallible humans, with the sin nature still inside them, and will at times stumble or make mistakes. So you can't be taking your lead from even the best Christians you know -- you must keep in God's word, and keep your eyes glued to Jesus Christ. Don't let the flaws of those who claim to follow Him keep you away from Him.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), August 23, 2000.

patty thanks for being civil in your reply! i guess all i need to say is i am not really looking for a church ,been there done that,i am looking for a group of people who do not lable themselves by their beliefs and are willing to share their uideas in a civil manner. wicca has always been an idea i would enjoy learning about.anyone else?

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 23, 2000.

Wise words Kathleen! Thank you.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 23, 2000.

I just got kicked off a parenting list because I qualified with the criteria in the welcome list but they forgot to mention that you can't base your beliefs on the Bible. So the condemnation goes both ways. But I think Wendy put it well in her post that what counts is what happens in the end. Someone else said that they could be a good person just not a Christian. I agree with that. On that count we are all the same. The only problem is no one is good enough to get to the best place without Jesus. Christians can be wicked and nonChristians can be good but Jesus died for us all anyway. It is hard for us to understand that we are created beings and as such are subject to the creator whether we like the rules or not. Not a concept we as Americans easily embrace. But we have to decide where we came from. Can we really believe everything began without a creator? After that you have to decide who you believe the creator is. But you can't judge a concept based on a perversion of it. ie: a vegetarian who eats only carrots dies of poor nutrition makes vegetarianism wrong, a person who overprotects and isolates their children makes homeschooling wrong. An unChristian Christian doesn't make Christianity wrong it just makes them a poor example of it. But a word of caution to both sides. You can't make criticisms of something you don't know about and people won't come to know of something if it is portrayed badly.

That's more than two cents but having gotten thrown off a list for my belief it's nice to find a place that's a little more openminded.

Kathy

-- Kathy (DavidWH6@juno.com), August 23, 2000.

Man, I didn't think it would be such a litigative process to express that someone could believe a lie and offer it to others, and not be consciously wanting to cause others to believe a lie....It's like being sincere and yet being sincerely wrong.

As for the nasty emails some of you have received, I am sorry for the attacks you received. I only wanted to make it clear that I haven't done that as there is so much animosity in the air between John and I.

That was not my desire, yet I saw that having a discussion on the topic of evil's origins was unable to continue because Father of Lies and I had to address it.

It would seem the whole "arguing" thing is a perfect example of who is in charge of that. Not knowing nor acknowledging God doesn't change Him one bit....but it does change us.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 23, 2000.

So here we are discussing theology again. I was hoping someone who cares would discuss Dr. Laura! I'm curious!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 23, 2000.

Renee, I wouldn't classify myself as anything but questioning when it comes to religion. Having been brought up by a Jewish father and Catholic mother certainly put tolerance high on the list of our virtues! My question to "christians" or any god believers is,"where did god come from?" Was he evolved? When did he come into existence? If you believe in creationism by the hand of god, don't you want to know where god came from...how he came into existence? Everything under the sun (that we know of) has cycles....lives and dies. Even stars go nova, planets die. So what of our supposed creator?

-- J. (earthfarm@aol.com), August 23, 2000.

God's testimony concerning himself reads "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I suspect that is why he is God. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 23, 2000.

Kathleen, you said it well! It's all about JESUS, not about us. No one can ever be good enough to get into heaven. Thank God we don't have to follow the law. Not that there aren't some good points in the law, being human, we are incapable of being perfect. It' not about being "good". Some of the best people in the world will burn in hell because they did not accept Jesus. That is not to say we can accept HIM and go about doing bad deliberately. When we accept HIM we will want to please HIM. Only someone who has been born again can understand this. We will fail HIM because we are not perfect but praise the Lord, my sins, past, present and future have been forgiven! I wish that everyone on this forum could have this peace!

-- bwilliams (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), August 23, 2000.

I just wanted to say that in the end, God knows what's in our hearts & I feel that is how we will be judged. You can be a good person without going to church or whatever. I personally find the Bible fascinating & love to study & read it. That doesn't make me better than anyone else. As far as the question about where did God come from, He was & always will be here. I believe He is the Creator & everything on this earth came from Him. I also, after much study of the Bible, no longer believe that people are cast into hell at death if they are unbelievers. God wants everyone to share in His kingdom & I believe we will all get the chance to do that. I also believe we will have to answer for the things we did in this lifetime. That is why I try to be a good person each & everyday. If you are truly sorry for the bad things you have done, God will forgive you. Well, I'll shut up now. This is a topic that will never be agreed upon by everyone. Just wanted to add my thoughts.

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), August 23, 2000.

Well, I've stayed outta these types of discussion since coming on the forum. I will continue to stay out because nothing is settled by fussin and argueing amongst people. I hate nobody and will respect everybody's opinion on here. I've had the opportunity to peek into the fires of hell about 4 years ago. It is filling up fast with people that rejected Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. Precious souls in flame and torment because they failed to TRUST Him for their salvation. Now, I've said all that to say this--I've become attatched to my extended family on here and most certainly don't want to see anybody go to hell for eternity. I'm not a fancy preacher-just a man that Jesus Christ saved from those fires of hell--and I don't want anybody to experience those terrible torments. I'll leave it at that and will not attempt to convert anybody but I will continue to witness for Him. The saving business is up to Him and the drawing and conviction of sin is up to the Holy Ghost! Time is short before Jesus Christ comes for His church. When I'm raptured along with all the rest of the Christians, both dead and alive, I want all of YOU to go along with me. Me selfish? You Bet! Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), August 23, 2000.

Sheepish, excellent post. Worth more than .02 cents!

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), August 23, 2000.

I am going to go back and actually try to answer the question, which I believe is, why Christians say the whole Bible is true and yet don't keep parts of the Old Testament. Keep in mind that Dr. Laura is Jewish. Christians believe distinctly different than Jews in that we believe that the Savior has already come to earth and will return in the future to set up His kingdom. Jews on the other hand are still waiting for the Messiah. This distinction is very important in understanding why Christians no longer observe the Law. There are two factors at work here, that play into why I don't personally observe the Law, when it comes especially to the cleansing and sacrificial system. The first reason is that I am not Jewish. This is very important as gentiles were never expected to keep the law in the first place. The Jewish people were and are God's chosen people. God made the Jewish race the recipients of his plan. He made a promise to Abraham and kept that promise through his decendents to bring His plan of salvation to fruition. The purpose of the Law was to point out that man cannot make himself acceptable to God. He cannot take care of his sin problem by himself. Romans 3:20 says it this way, " Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." This means that no man is justified by the law either Jew or Gentile. Rather the law was God's avenue to show man his sinfulness. In verse 22-23 we come to the only way that man can be forgiven of his inherently sinful nature. "Even by the righteousness of God which is by faith of jesus christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God;" And this is how all people come to know God and are cleansed of their sin. The Old Testament Jews were cleansed and saved through their belief in the coming Christ, and through the blood sacrifice of animals, and People following Christ's time on earth are saved through their faith in his fulfillment of the law, which is what the law was the promise of. Which brings me to the second reason that I as a christian do not live under the law. Romans 6:14" for sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." This means as a Christian I am no longer subject to the law, because God through his grace sent his Son to pay my sin debt which fulfilled the promise made to Abram, and cleansed me from my sin through my faith in him. So the law showed me my sinfulness and my inability to cleanse myself from sin, and prepared me and all the world for the sacrifice of Jesus, who took upon himself the sin I could not pay for because of my imperfection and inherited sin from Adam.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 23, 2000.

Give me a break.

-- JJ (J.J.@pa.prg), August 24, 2000.

I am glad to see the [mostly] civil discussion here and elsewhere on this board. I have been on several that had religious "wars" that ended with half the members departing in a huff or being kicked off by the Administrator. The "wars" weren't ONLY Christian vs non- Christian, but also Brand X Christian vs Brand Y Christian. It was not pleasant, no one changed anyone else's mind, and in the end, I think we all lost out.

I think I followed the gist of Little Bit Farm's post. So, doesn't this reasoning mean that homosexual Christians are not sinning by being homosexual? Or am I not "getting" this?

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), August 24, 2000.

John Leake, I may have read this incorrectly, but it seemed as though you were comparing the Wiccan path with Satanism. If that is the case, you are in need of more education concerning Wicca. The two could not be farther apart.

If it harms none, do as you wish. This is the Wiccan law. It's backed up by the threefold law: Everything cast returns threefold. That means good or bad - thoughts, actions, you name it. A lot like the golden rule, isn't it?

Jesus, I understand, was the epitome of tolerance and respect for others. I respect the choices of others, even when they differ from my own, except when they break that golden rule.

So there's my 2 cents.

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), August 24, 2000.

Laura: That was not the case at all. I'm familiar with the wiccan rede and live it tho I am not a wiccan per se. I brought up wicca for the purpose of contrasting it to Christianity as a "pagan"(there fore verboten) religion. Perhaps it was an ill advised choice but I continue to believe there are a fair number of wiccans who are there out of rebellion against christianity. So No offense intended. Blessed Be!

]Doreen: In your most recent post you reassert the lie I'm promoting yet fail to answer my direct question. Please answer it so you can share with us all how its a lie.

"There are alot of ways these things can be looked at and each one will yield a different perspective of the same truth."

Please explain to me what part of that self evident statement is a lie.

Kindly answer the question without ducking it.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 24, 2000.

Blessed Be, John!

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), August 24, 2000.

I am reminded of a Pharisee that visited Jesus in the middle of the night " Rabbi, we know that you must be from God" BUT ? ETC. Jesus replied " If I speak to you of earthly things that you can see, and you cannot understand, than how do you expect to understand heavenly things that you cannot see ?

My faith is sufficient for me. I can never find the words to make others believe because my faith was a gift greatfully received.

Perhaps our many faiths and lack of understanding in the different perceptions of the same faith are: We were taught by many different teachers !!

Our religious bickerings serve only to futhur the cause of the devil because we seem divided. I have often said that for the purposes of this forum that " I believe " or " I do not believe " would serve us better.

I appeal to you as a fellow homesteader to ease the name calling and harsh rhetoric towards one another as we struggle to understand the mysteries we all seek. Afterall, we have maintained our dignity for all this time--why squander it now ?

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 24, 2000.

I agree with Joel... and am hesitant to respond to this thread, but wanted to leave you with one thought.

"The single biggest cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians... they profess Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and are denied by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable."

I am a Christian. And the above quote (I can't remember where it came from) applies to ME as much as it may apply to someone else. I do not say this to condemn anyone but rather give us something to chew on.

Enough from me. I've got a bushel of tomatoes calling me. :)

-- Misha (MishaaE@aol.com), August 24, 2000.

I would like to add the following for consideration. I have known people who somehow believe that christians are to be perfect. The standard applied to christians is often out of balance. Remember, the only difference between a christian and someone who is not a christian, is the blood of Christ. That is the only way we are "set apart", Jesus is our mediator before a Holy God. Without Christ to cover us, as we are still sinners, we could not come near God.

Our goal is certainly to be "Christlike" in our actions, words and thoughts. In our effort to obey Him, we submit to His authority. But does this mean we handle every situation perfectly? As Christ would? Oh, but I wish! How many times have I allowed my "Self" to rule my actions, rather than submitting to Him?! The difference is, the repentance that follows..... It is not difficult to distinguish from those who "call" themselves christians, and those who truly seek to serve Him. It is an easy out to lump all "christians" together and then point out.... well I have this relative, friend, neighbor, blah, blah, blah. Therefore, they are ALL hypocrates, fakes and phoneys. If this same standard/reasoning were held with any other group...women/gays/minorities, etc... everyone would shout to high heaven about the injustice of such reasoning. Believe me, I am still the same flawed person I was before I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. The difference comes in that 1)Chirsts blood covers my sin 2) I seek to obey him and glorify him.

Another thought, just for the record, as people seem to think Christians somehow think so well of themselves.... I once thought, before I accepted Christ, that I was a pretty good person. I never stole, I treated people fairly, I did not murder, rape or commit evil upon anyone. Once I recognized and fully understood WHO God is, yikes, and I weighed myself against His holiness.....UGH! Then, and only then did the recognition come that I was in need of "saving".

This is all said only to point out christians are indeed flawed. And we know it! We struggle, we sin, and we do it over and over again! But that is the point..... Only through Christ are we "holy", not from ourselves. As Kathleen said, you must keep your eye on Christ, the rest of us, just like a family member, friend, spouse, will fail you. Yes, my life has changed drastically, my choices have changed and I live my life in a way that lines up with the Word of God. But, I am still me, flaws, weaknesses, tendencies & all. Thank God he is merciful! God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 24, 2000.

Wendy, you have a gift of conveying your faith in a clear and kind way, if you wrote a book I would buy it! I've agreed with everything you've said on all threads.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), August 24, 2000.

John Leake says:

"There are alot of ways these things can be looked at and each one will yield a different perspective of the same truth."

Jesus Christ says: " Broad is the path that leads to destruction " "I am the way, the truth and the life" "No one comes to the Father but through the Son"

I can't explain it to you. It's the work of the Holy Spirit to do that...."Be careful, lest you believe a lie".

Sorry to say that I am out of here for awhile. Go ahead and throw your cyber-stones and I will follow the example of my Saviour and remain mute in the face of my accusers.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 24, 2000.

Some observations/thoughts:

If you go back to the scripture passage that I posted above, and read it again, note that the Pharisees were first pointing out Jesus's and his disciples "mistakes"; and then trying to "accuse" him; and finally "(going) out to conspire against him, how to destroy him."

Remember that these folks were all Jews...all folks of the same faith. See how nicely dissenters from the mainline were treated? Do you think it's that different today?

I heard some radio journalism yesterday. It seems that American Judaism is going through some of the problems that seem to plague American Christians: i.e.: Orthodoxy vs. Reformed vs. Conservative (if I have the terms right...I'm not Jewish, so forgive me please if I missed it). In Christianity, it's more like: Born-Again, Moderate Protestant, Catholic, etc.

The radio documentary brought up the idea that since Jews do not have to unite against outside forces so much anymore (i.e.: Nazism), they have less reason to "overlook" some of the differences between their subgroups. Christians these days are probably the same. Since we aren't united against a common goal, we are "bickering" amongst ourselves over laws and doctrinal issues.

I think that there is a very judging group of Christians that not only arouse hostility in non-Christians, but create barriers within the Christian community in general. Where is the love that Jesus asked us to profess for each other? Who profits from being more like a Pharisee?

I believe that you can always catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And while I don't think folks that aren't Christian are anything remotely like flies (good grief! Bad analogy!) I can tell you that a Christian probably won't be much of an evangelist by aggravating and alienating others. Instead, setting a good example; living one's life by Christ's example; being kind and loving to all; using one's head (why do you think Christ spoke in parables?????); and thinking outside the box (see above post...that's what Jesus was doing) will surely attract more people to this beautiful and profound faith, if that is indeed one's goal.

The anger, and I will have to say, self-righteousness, that some Christians demonstrate, alienates fellow Christians and non- Christians alike and surely sends everyone packing. Newcomers looking for a spiritual home will take off running to another faith.

None of us are perfect. Unfortunately, some people think they are more perfect than others, though. Just thinking....

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 24, 2000.

I don't mean to drag this out folks or to cause contention amongst a friendly group of people. However when one persons statement asserts anothers is a lie, then says she stands behind her statement it does not seem inappropriate to ask why the challenged statement is a lie. Its too bad you consider that to be a cyber-stone Doreen. I thought it was the way of debate.

Doreen says the way to the truth is narrow. I agree. But how does that make the challenged observation untrue? Note Doreen that it does refer to different perspectives of the SAME truth. Its not denying that the bible is true but it does recognize the simple fact that people will see that same truth differently and it will mean different things to different people. Thats all. As far as I'm concerned its a valid question and I don't think you can answer it in any rational way without having to concede its a real consideration that must be taken into account.

Being faithful is a good and blessed thing. But when confronted with something thats an obvious fact of life and denying its truth is ill advised and unwise.

Joel, in a sense, basically conceded my point, saying perhaps its due to different teachers. Very likely thats a part of it but it still remains for the student to filter the information thru their own mind and put it in the context of their own experience.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 24, 2000.

John, maybe I am confused. The "truth" Doreen spoke of concerned the fact that Jesus Christ is the way to the Father (God). This being on this thread as well as the other you spoke of. Am I misunderstanding or are you and she speaking of different "truths" regarding a different matter? Thanks! God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 24, 2000.

>>"I think I followed the gist of Little Bit Farm's post. So, doesn't this reasoning mean that homosexual Christians are not sinning by being homosexual? Or am I not "getting" this? "<<

This is an excellent question! I think I'll let Paul answer it for me. First I will include the quote I listed before. Romans 6:14-18 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law but under grace> What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God Forbid. Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether to sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness? But God be thenked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." and Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

In answer to your question, Christians should not continue in sin. Homosexuality is a sin. Not only is it spoken of as sin in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament as well, as is spoken of in Romans 1: 26-32 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and recieving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, coveteousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So you see, Christians are not to intentionally continue in sin, but when we do sin, and because we are not perfect we do, the bible says we have an advocate in Christ. God no longer sees our sin, but sees us through the perfect mirror of his son.

Little Bit farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 24, 2000.

i feel a for or against homhsexuality post about to start!

what folks do behind closed doors is their right, i have lots of close friends who are gay and the love they share between themselves is as true as the love my husband and i share. ok say what you want about the laws of nature and gods laws and whom ever else laws you all want to quote but please remember everybody needs and seeks love in their own personal way and as wronge as it seems to some ,to others it is path they have chosen.

my friends have families, with 2 loving parents {2 moms and some 2 dads}and the biggest problem they are faceing is being judged by others.i dont like being judged and i can only imagin the pain they deal w/ on a daily bases when all they want is love

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 24, 2000.

Just a couple of thoughts - maybe good - maybe bad.

I encourage readers to check out the *version* of the Bible they quote. Most are King James version. Now if I remember my history correctly, good 'ole King James said something to the effect 'these are the _only_ teachings and versions that *I* will allow printed' Question is, what happened to all the other teachings that were passed along up until that time? Both by the church and the lay persons? So one person got to decide the way the future will see christianity. Imagine that !

Unless we're willing to go back to the Greek/Roman/Arametic (sp?) versions and see what they contain, and then see how they relate to the current day's versions (KJV), arguing points is just a waste of energy.

And always bear in mind that Jesus was a Jew. He wasn't trying to create a new religion.

I'm outta' here...

j

-- j (jw_hsv@yahoo.com), August 24, 2000.

Hi, Renee, I just wanted to let you know that I, too, believe that homosexuality is a personal issue. In fact, my personal belief is that it is largely genetically influenced.

I just was confused by Little Bit Farm's reasoning of how the (old Jewish) Law doesn't apply to Christian gentiles. I still don't understand, but I don't think I'm going to ever "get" it and not see a contradiction. [shrug]

Sheepish, thank you for post regarding honey and flies (LOL -- I certainly agree!

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), August 24, 2000.

joy.. i think it goes along the lines of 1/2 full or 1/2 empty..

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 24, 2000.

Oh great!!! Now we get to experience some christians do a little gay bashing!! I also pray. I pray Steve takes the Religion politics part of the forum and flushes it down the cyber toilet!!!!....Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), August 24, 2000.

kirk, i hope it wont turn into that, that was not my intent. i like the saying if yiu have nothing nice to say , say nothing at all, or politeness show your insides to the outsides.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 24, 2000.

Hey, I was answering a direct question. I was asked about christians sinning and I used the example the author used to answer it. I am a Christian. I believe the bible. Therefore it stands to reason, when the bible calls something a sin that is what I believe to be true. I was not bashing Gays anymore than I bash adulterers when I say that the bible says that is a sin. I myself am just a sinner saved by grace. I am not perfect, nor do I expect to be in this lifetime. I am sorry I stepped on your politically correct toes, but sin is sin. You can spend your life railing against it, but that doesn't change things one bit. Sin is still sin. The Bible teaches many things are sins, not just homosexuality, and in fact the bible established what is right and wrong. Therefore your arguement is not with me, it is with the Bible. I just believe the bible. I believe in it's teachings and I am not afraid to stand for what I believe. I love and pray for all people, not just those with certain sins. I myself am full of sin, and am only forgiven by the grace of God. Yet I am not insulted when someone says that the lies I've told, or the people I've hurt, or the lusts I've had are sinful. I know that they are. I accept that they are. I am so thankful to Christ who forgave me for all of that.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 24, 2000.

Kirk, might not you be better served by avoiding the religious/political threads? Just a thought. BTW Lenore, thank you for your very kind words!! God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 24, 2000.

Kirk, not all Christians are gay bashers. Puh-leeze! It is, however, a really divisive issue for many denominations. Also, for some reason, some denominations are now saying that women cannot be clergy. Seems odd that for the same denominations, it was okay up until now. If the law is supposed to be upheld as "written", why the swing away from previous policy? What's up with that? What are these women clergy supposed to do? Get unemployment?

It makes me wonder if the Bible is confusing, or if the churches are just confused!!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 24, 2000.

I just saw this article a few days ago and found it pretty interesting. The intent of the letter seems to be to poke fun at the bible and Dr. Laura, for upholding biblical standards. Nobody else has mentioned the fact that many of the verses quoted , are taken out of context, or that an answer to the question is self evident by the context or the next verse. For example, it is clearly stated that sacrifices are only to be offered on the altar, by the priests, and that it is not a "do it yerself", kind of thing. No temple, no altar,=no sacrifices. Exodus 21:7 does NOT say it's OK to sell your daughter into slavery. It says a man can sell his daughter to be a female servant. jews were not allowed to buy and sell one another as slaves, and there were very specific laws about how they were to treat a fellow Jew that was a servant. Only gentiles were allowed as slaves, and even these were not slaves as we think of them, they were to be offered their freedom after a time, and they also, had definite rights. Leviticus 15:19-24 doesn't say that you are allowed no contact with a woman while she is menstrating. It simply says thta she's unclean, and you will be,too, if you touch her, so take a bath and wash your clothes if you want to be clean (ritually clean, as in clean so you can enter the temple.)it also says not to have relations with a woman during this time( a prohibiton that is extended to gentiles in the new testament,too), but unless he is really a moronm he will know if his wife is in this state before that occurs! Exodus 35:1 should put the question about 35;2 into context. He said"To the children of Israel". Further, execution was done in a very organized way, after a trial had been held, and reliable witnesses had testifyed, etc. Again, not a "do it yerself" kind of thing. Lev.10;10 is not the shellfish verse, however, the penalty for eating shellfish is to wash yourself and your clothes and be unclean until evening, whereas the penalty for homosexual relations is death. Lev 21:18 says that a blind Levite may not serve in the temple. Given the duties and strenuous nature of the temple work, that sounds sensible to me. Also, the levites and priests that were on duty had to be able to examine things closely, such as possible leprousy, whether animals had diseased organs, etc. Since there is no temple at this time, and the man is probably not a qualified Levite, it doesn't apply anyway.It is important, when reading the bible, to read it in it's proper context. Personally, I think that if we all followed His law ,the world would be a better place. If you really believe that he made us, then isn't it also sensible to think that he knows what's good for us and what's not? Why not read and apply the 'owner's manual' as you would with a rototiller? I am also of the very unpopular opinion that Jesus never 'did away with' the old testament, see the last verse of Matthew. No, don't quote Paul to me, because I don't think Paul had the authority to negate the entire old testament and Jesus, too! The 'old testament' is the foundation of the 'new testament, and throwing away the old negates the new.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), August 24, 2000.

Rebekah! I sure hope we're not throwing away the Old Testament! WOW! I think you did a great job of responding. However, some of what existed in the O.T. (we call it Hebrew Testament in my denomination) is historical stuff, which no longer is practiced (having multiple wives, slaves, stoning people, etc). While there are undoubtedly some who would like to see us return to those days of yesteryear, I'm not one of them! So a big question is this: How do we interpret the Law? By the letter of the law? Or by the idea behind the law? Tough questions, and way greater minds than I have debated this for centuries.

When someone gets the answer, please call up the US Supreme Court, and give them your $.02!! They could use your help, too!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 24, 2000.

Rebekkah Thanks for the clear answer! While i don't consider myself religious, religion fascinates me. yet I find reading the bible very difficult, often the same sentence over and over.....I've decided to wait on an American english translation! Your answers certainly put things into perspective. Thank you.

-- J. (earthfarm@aol.com), August 24, 2000.

For my 2 cents worth, I agree with the post that said to check your edition. I was informed (from a reliable source) that the passage of the Bible that says not to suffer a witch to live is actually a "typo" made by a no doubt sincere and hard working copyist, back in the day, whose translation skills were not what they should've been. The original text, in the original hebrew (or aramaic, I forget) says thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live. The two words are similar to one who doesn't speak the original language, much as sex and sects might cnfuse a Spanish speaking transcriber. Throw in nonconformist spellings and grammer and it's a wonder the thing got written at all. For this, hundreds (maybe thousands) of lonely old women have been burned at the stake.

My Mother always told me that the Bible had been continually edited with an eraser, usually for the purposes of those funding the writing of it, and I believe her.

For those really interested, check out the books in the library on the apocrapha (some left-out scriptures) and other ancient religious texts (dead sea dcrolls, etc) to enhance your ideas of the original meanings and the subsequent changes.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), August 24, 2000.

Bless you Hoot!!! I know there is a special place for you in heaven! As a saved sinner I'll see you there some day when our Lord returns for us. I believe more christians would bring more sheep into the fold by example rather than argument. If only I could have one tiny bit the influence Jesus had. Bless you all whether saved sinner or lost sinner, my prayers are with you.

-- bwilliams (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), August 24, 2000.

bwilliams, I agree with you that actions speak louder than words, and I too was blessed by the contribution hoot made. But at the same time we are called to defend the faith and spread the gospel, this can not be done in silence. To argue is pointless. To offer the truth contained in scripture, and pray the hearers would feel the "tug" of the Holy Spirit and respond to His "urgings" is the goal. If we let our egos get involved, our testimony is rendered useless and the cause of Christ is indeed hurt. My prayer is that Gods Word would penetrate those who "hear" and His will be done! God Bless you all and I thank God for the wonderful opportunity to offer the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 24, 2000.

Rebekah, Thank you for pointing out the word of God for what it is. Unaltering and infalable.I guess I don't understand. If I have questions about the bible, I try to find out what I want to know from the bible.If I can't find it, I try to find someone who does.I guess the thing I'm wandering about those who don't believe it is " Would you want to know if you were wrong?" It's very aparent that some don't want to know. And I will go a little farther out on this limb and say that my heart aches for you.To know that if the Lord came for His children tonight some of you would still be here to read this forum in the morning.PLEASE believe me, I am not saying this to hurt anyone or to throw accusations, but because I love you and the thought of even one of you dying without KNOWING JESUS breaks my heart.

-- Bonnie (josabo1@juno.com), August 24, 2000.

I am always amazed at how the definition of "tolerance" has come to be used so incorrectly. To be tolerant means to respect the rights of others to hold different views. Tolerance DOES NOT mean that we everyone's view/opinion is right. It is possible to be wrong no matter how vigorously we demand that others "tolerate" our views as correct. I freely tolerate all views without accepting all as correct. Thank you Hoot, Wendy, and my brothers and sisters in Christ for your eloquent apologetics on the Christian faith.

-- Liz Rhein (merhein@shentel.net), August 24, 2000.

Great post J. Does anyone know of any web sites or anyway that us mere mortals would ever be able to read the Bible in the original text? I cannot read hebrew, but I would love to be able to read the Bible without King James, Catholics, Protestants etc...

Come to think of it, I'm with John, A good honest discussion gets a person thinking and questioning. This discussion has not made my beliefs weaker, but stronger. Good comes out of all things. Even disagreeing.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), August 24, 2000.

I do wonder if there is a point in these discussions. Faith can't be argued with. It is like love...it is blind. I have a sweet neighbor who is married to the biggest jerk...in my view. Before my father died, i asked him if he believed in god. He said "no". Surprisingly, I was saddened by that; sad that he would die thinking that this was all there is. I am not a believer myself, but sometimes I wish I were. Logic always takes over, and there is no logic in faith....it can't be proved through science. But then, even Jesus had his doubting Thomas.

-- Sue (sulandherb@aol.com), August 24, 2000.

In my post I got a little excited. I certainly didn't mean all christians were gay bashers. Sorry Sheepish. In my younger days in the S.F. bay area I belonged to a group of people (councelors) that worked with the terminally ill and their families. It was right when the aids epidemic struck so I was privileged to know many gay people. Well I don't know if many remember, but there was a lot of people shaking their bibles letting us know how aids was Gods way of purging the earth of deviants, or many other such variations. Very hurtful stuff. So when I here someone mention homosexuals and the bible I get flashbacks so to speak. Sorry to include all christians I didn't mean it.....Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), August 25, 2000.

Sheepish: RIGHT ON!

Wendy: To try to clarify. You say "The "truth" Doreen spoke of concerned the fact that Jesus Christ is the way to the Father (God). This being on this thread as well as the other you spoke of. Am I misunderstanding or are you and she speaking of different "truths" regarding a different matter?"

The issue between Doreen and I is I pointed out that there is may be one truth but alot of different perspectives and interpretations to that truth. Doreen believes the way she looks at it is correct. You believe your way is correct and I believe my way is correct. She said I was spreading a lie, but allowed later that maybe it was unintentional but a lie nonetheless.

I continue to contend that it is inevitable that this would be so because each of us as individuals existentially represent a different perspective on life and its natural and likely that we will have at least a slightly different take on this or that specific truth as in What does this truth mean to me?.

I also pointed out, in support of my statement, that each of the Christian denominations represent a different interpretation of the same book, the bible. Another lie I guess. That we should all or most of us disagree about the meaning of this or that verse further illustrates my point.

The main reason I continually bring it up is to point out that its very unlikely any of us have THE correct answer to any of these questions. That is a humbling thought that would tend to make us better listeners and learners but in matters of the spirit there is alot of emotional investment in our beliefs and that reinforces our resistance to change. Even if one of us does have exactly the correct "take" on this or that the other has no way of knowing it.

We shouldn't be so quick to judge or condem anothers thots or ideas about these things because there are few of us who KNOW that our own are correct and we fail to seperate in out mind what we know from what we believe. We only know that the living spirit of Christ IS and that God IS. Belief becomes little more than opinion and we all have one of those.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 25, 2000.

Some of you think the Bible is full of errors, I do not, here is a writing that briefly explains this better then I ever could.

My Harvard professor said Exodus 37:17-24, which describes sevenfold lamps, was in error because such lamps did not exist in Moses time. Later I took part in an archaeological expedition in Dothan in Israel and watched workmen uncover a sevenfold lamp dating from 1400 B.C., right from Moses time.

Critics once said the Hittites never existed because the Greeks and Egyptians didnt mention them. Then a whole Hittite civilization was discovered. The Greeks and Egyptians did mention them but got the name so twisted no one recognized it. The Bible had it right.

That did not satisfy the critics. They said, "That may be true, but the Horites are fiction." Others said Sargon never existed. Some even said King David never existed. But Horites were proved to be the same as Hurrians. Sargons palace has been excavated. Recently, an ancient inscription was discovered that mentions Davids name and kingdom.

Again and again the Bible has been proved true. It is the critics who are in error due to their unbelief and insufficient knowledge.

Other supposed errors include chronological difficulties caused because the Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans all used different systems of measuring time or dating. One cause of apparent contradictions is that one passage may use round numbers; another may give the exact figure, depending on the purpose of the writer.

Most of the errors critics talk about are copyists errors. Because the books of the Bible were copied by hand it was easy to make spelling mistakes, misread a word, or leave out a word or a line. By comparing the many ancient copies that have been discovered, scholars can determine the original reading in the vast majority of cases. These cases where we cant be sure are mostly differences in spelling or word order. None of them affect the teachings of the Bible in any way.

Remember also that the Bible uses everyday language because it was written for the common people, not for scientists. Actually, scientific language did not develop until modern times. Most of us still use the language of appearance, just as the Bible does. Who says, "What a beautiful earthset," even though we know that it is the earths turning that causes the sunset?

The Bible is a wonderful revelation of God and His plan. It will not lead us astray.

For more on this subject, see Bible Doctrines, by Menzies and Horton.

-- Todd Osborn (tosborn@hotmail.com), August 25, 2000.

I was going to stay out of this, but I have enjoyed reading it and would like to add a few points. I'm not going to keep scrolling up and down to see who said what, so my apologies for not attributing point to the person who previously made them.

First, I was raised calling myself a Christian, but seldom went to church. There are parts of the Judo-Christian faith that I have very strong disagreements with, but they are not important to this discussion, so let me just state plainly that I am not a Christian, nor am I part of any other organized faith.

One of my proselytizing Christian friends explained her attempts to convert everybody on earth like this: "Suppose you were walking down the street and saw a building on fire and looking closer you saw somebody sitting in a window of that building just dozing off, unaware of the fire. You would undoubtably yell at them and try to make them aware of the fire. Hopefully they would listen and get to safety. But perhaps they were blind, or drunk, or whatever, and didn't believe there was a fire. You would try even harder to get them out. Possible even putting yourself in danger to force them to safety. You certainly would have little respect for anybody that came upon such a scene and simply stood there and calmly watched the person burn to death without trying to save them. That's the way [her flavor of] Christians see humanity. If they are not woken up and lead to safety, they will burn, not to death but for eternity."

For her, it wasn't an option to leave unbelievers alone any more than you would leave somebody in a burning building.

I may not agree with any proselytizer I have met yet, and at times I'm annoyed and aggravated by them, but I have to respect anybody that will stand for their convictions. I find it easier to be friends with people who have strong convictions I disagree with than to hang around people who have no passionate beliefs.

The people who stated that there are many ways of seeing the same truth are wrong. Either Christ is the one and only way to Heaven or he is not. I happen to believe he is not, but like I said I respect those who do. Somebody did say that tolerance didn't mean that you treat everybody's view as if it was, or might be, correct. Tolerance to me means even if I believe a person is wrong in one area, I don't use that to judge them in areas where their wrong belief makes no difference. If I were a devout Christian, I certainly wouldn't hire a nonbeliever as a guest preacher for my church. I would hire one to build my house if he were a good carpenter though. And I wouldn't hire somebody to build my house if they had never picked up a hammer before just because they thought like I do. This is the type of tolerance that I feel is needed by lacking in much of our world.

If you say you believe something, but other people may believe something different and still be seeing the same truth, you are simply saying you have no idea what the truth is, but you have a guess at it. That's fine. I certainly don't know what the truth is, but I admit that openly. I do have a list of truths' others have proposed throughout history that I firmly believe are not the real truth, but that's a different matter.

I should just end this here, but I have some questions that I have never gotten good answers to. I'll stick with a few that might be easier first. It's unlikely that anybody here can answer then sufficiently to make me convert back to Christianity, but I really would like to hear the answers.

The original post did touch on an issue that I've had trouble with ever since I was a kid. How does a mere mortal know what parts of the Old Testament are officially' not relevant today? What parts are Jewish' law that we can toss out and what's God's' law that must be kept? Are Crucifixes graven images' or not? If not why? Should we bring back stoning? Now everybody I've asked has told me _their opinions_ but they were asking somebody who had little faith in God to all of the sudden have faith in them and their interpretation.

If there is a truth, it should be freely available to all who seek it. Proclaiming the strength of your belief does not give me any reason to adopt such beliefs. I have known people from many faiths that will claim their faith is The Truth" just as fervorantly as any other faith's followers.

The other thing is a few people here have stated what I surmise to be: "Toss out all the laws and simply believe in Jesus and repent." If I think a nasty thought, or cuss somebody out, if I truly believe in Jesus and repent, then I still go to Heaven, right? What about a true believer that also happens to be a rapist or murderer? Should I even bother trying to good, or should I just concentrate on believing and repenting?

What's the official doctrine on people who have never heard a true Christian spread the gospel? Are all the people that lived in the Americas and elsewhere before the missionaries came doomed to Hell? How about the kid in the ghetto that gets shot down in a bad drug deal when he's only 14? He may have lived an unrepentant life of sin, but is that his fault?

==>paul, and this is the short version!

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), August 25, 2000.

Paul, I was thinking the same thing about what is "tossed" out of the Bible and what is not. After re-reading the original post and then some of the responses, I got to thinking...."does God not want us to burn sacrifices at the alter, did he tell someone that or more likely did man just assume that it was passe? How is man the authority on what God intended as really important in the Bible? Isn't it all? Do we decide? Haven't we altered God's law to fit with changing society? Now I know people will say that these are modern times and we shouldn't be expected to do some of these old archaic things. Says who? What's archaic and what's not? Who decides? The religious leaders? More than likely. Is it them that are followed or God? Alot of people don't honor the Sabbath, even though the bible states to, but we're mighty sure that a homosexual or non-believer will go to hell because the Bible says so. Who says which of these two are more important to God? My point is, the majority of people, are told by man, what is important to God. He might surprise alot of people one day.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), August 25, 2000.

Hi Paul, what a wonderful post! It dragged me back in, as I was done posting, 4 bushels of tomatoes just staring me down, not to mention the rest of the "end of harvest" canning! Anyway, I read & re-read your questions, and to answer each would be impossible for me right now. But I wanted to offer you this, assuming these are genuine questions, and I believe they are. This is NOT a definative answer. I rarely offer my own "experience" as worthy of pursuit, but I will indulge, for the moment, and suggest, what brought answers to me regarding the very questions you listed. As well as many, many more... as you indicated you have.

I picked up the Bible, out of frustration. How can this be? What about this? Well, if this is this then how can that work? Why would He possibly expect that? You probably know the routine. The only thing was, I really did not know that most people start reading the Gospels and such. So I began at the beginning, I had real questions and I wanted real answers. For the moment, I told myself I would accept it all as 100% true. When I was done I would then make a decision as to it's reliability. Right now I wanted to know what IT said, not someone else.

So I began in Genesis and proceeded from there. All the way through. At first it was easy because 1)it was actually interesting 2) I was committed to knowing for myself what it contained. Then it got a little harder and I had to "work" to keep up. Then as my understanding grew (and I believe the Holy Spirit began to "draw" me near) I began to get a bit "fearful", a feeling of "awe" if you will, at WHO this God of the Bible was. I will also add I was amazed at the fact that the Jewish people, whom God had called out at His chosen, would so constantly and consistently rebel against Him and His ways. And how often He would provide a way back for them to fellowship with Him. (An aside, now that I have been a follower of Christ for almost 10 yrs now, oh boy! I really understand how often we disobey and rebel...this was not unique to the Jewish people, it is unique to all mankind!) Sorry, I am veering off. By the time I had reached the New Testament, I was fully aware of my sinfulness, and HIS Holiness. Needless to say, I got down on my knees, in my own living room, by myself and cried out to God to forgive me. That I understood, not fully.. not all.. but enough. That night I recieved Christ as MY Lord & Savior, in the blink of an eye. I say all this to say to you... His word has power, the power only truth can contain. Go to the source. It costs' you nothing. You have the choice, you may reject it or accept it. But I implore you to explore it! And if by the Grace of God, it changes your life, you will have a new "understanding". The questions you have can be answered! We do not have to search in darkness and hope for the best, we have a God who "knows" us. You OWE it to yourself to do this, and on the "off" chance there is a God who created us, to fellowship with Him, you owe it to Him. I have refrained from offering any scripture, but I will say this "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD."(my emp) Romans 10:17.

I add my personal testimony to the above scripture. By His Word. Mysteries are made known. The unknown is knowable. By HIS WORD. May God Bless You and forgive me if this is more than you wanted to know.

This post is nothing more and nothing less than what it contains. This is not about debating "truth", "reliability of sripture", etc... It is not an apologetic defense. It is written ONLY to encourage anyone who has genuine questions, to seek His word. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 25, 2000.

Paul: Really nice post Paul. I agree with just about all of it. The one thing I'd like to try to clarify is in response to your

"The people who stated that there are many ways of seeing the same truth are wrong. Either Christ is the one and only way to Heaven or he is not."

I'd like for you to consider the possibility that Christ personified a UNIVERSAL spirit. Always is, Always has been. He says "Before Abraham was, I am" is a pretty good indicator of that.

Its no accident that most of the worlds religions hold dear, similar spiritual virtues, character values etc. Those are all works of that ONE universal spirit, what I'll call the SPIRIT of Christ or another word for it is the CHRISTOS.

St Paul recommends the spirit above the law. The law makes dry the spirit but obeying the law leads to the results of the spirit.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 26, 2000.

Annie, some of the rule changes do have clear reasons in the Bible. Christ's own sacrifice was the last one need from this world, but many parts of Jewish Law' were dropped with little reason and some like circumcision were apparently dropped to make converts more likely. People are still changing what they call Christianity' to get a bigger audience. I'm not saying that all churches do that, but it's obvious that some do. It does make it hard to figure out though. We will never know what Testaments where even known to the council that put together the New Testament, let alone why they chose the ones they did. It is clear that there were other writings at that time that claimed to be Christian Gospels.

Wendy, Thank you for coming back into this thread. And thank you for your testimony. I think if you understood my earlier post well enough to come back that you will understand this: I believe your story, and I'm quite certain you believe your faith. I truly respect it, and at some level understand it. From my point of view I draw different conclusions from the same facts though.

When you first picked up the Bible and started reading, you were no doubt troubled in some way and looking for answers. Many people have been there and many of them came to the same conclusion: what you read was "the real truth." I can even guess at what happened to make you so certain that the Bible is the Word of God. The problem is that I have little doubt that had you been born in, say, China and had picked up the Dharmapada or the Wen Tsu you would have eventually had as much faith that Buddhism or Daoism are the one correct truth. Judaism and Christianity would not have survived if the teachings didn't provide answers with the ring of truth to those who seek them deeply. My belief is that those answers are, however, only glimpses of a bigger hidden truth and come packaged in a bunch of falsehoods. In just a few more lines, I'll be down stating something that may sound the opposite to John. It's not, I think, that all enduring religions contain some truth, but simply that anybody who looks for the truth deep enough will catch a glimpse of it, but that the glimpse will be tinted and tainted by what they believed before that glimpse. I'll give a couple examples at the end of this.

John, I guess I could have worded it better like this: "You either believe the Bible is the literal word of God, or you do not." I'm not saying that Christianity cannot lead one to finding the truth, but in order to find the ultimate truth one may have to give up Christianity eventually. There is a saying in Buddhism that "when you meet the Buddha, you must kill the Buddha." This is often taken to mean that at some point you drop the teachings because you have gone past them. I feel it's the same in all religions. If you define "Christian" as somebody who believes the literal words of the Bible, then a Christian, by that definition, cannot acknowledge other faiths as having a valid path to "The Truth." Devoutly practicing any faith can lead to higher mental states (for lack of a better word) but that does not mean that such religions point to the truth.

This is what makes cults so dangerous. It is easy to come up with a system that will make followers feel sure they have found the one Guru who has shown the One Truth. Give me a dozen troubled people looking answers and I'll bet within a year I can have half of them out testifying with all honestly that I showed them the most Holy experience a human can have.

OK Everybody, here are the examples:

5 or 6 years ago I read a Zen book that broke the rule of describing what it's like to have a "satori." I won't get into what a "satori" is now, except to say that depending on the school it is either seen as proof of awakening' or becoming enlightened, or of the first major step in that direction. I think the book was "The Three Pillars of Zen" but it was years ago. Anyhow it was only a few weeks after reading that when somebody asked the question "Why did you become a homesteader" on one of the lists I was on. One lady wrote a long, detailed description of living in the city with kids and a husband, but knowing their life wasn't going anywhere. She knew they needed a change but had no idea what. To try to find the answer she picked up a Bible and began reading intensely. She described "being visited by the Holy Ghost" and "being completely surrounded by light and warmth" and that "The universe just dropped away to nothingness." What really surprised me was some of the phrases she used to describe "The Holy Ghost" was almost verbatim from people describing "satori." She said she wasn't even aware of what she had just read, but rereading it (she quoted it, but I forget what verse it was, something that used an agrarian metaphor, like bringing in sheaves, or reaping or sowing) she knew she had to take her kids to the country. Since she was reading the Bible, there was little chance she would interpret the experience in any way other than as a Christian, but the experience itself is common to all major religions. She saw it as the Holy Ghost, the Buddhists saw it as awakening.'

My point isn't that all religions have a path to the truth, but that the capacity to touch such truth is inherent in all of us, but the conclusions we draw from briefly touching it are generally false and are based on our trying to explain the experience within the framework of what we have been taught.

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), August 26, 2000.

Paul, Thank You for such a beautiful & eloquent answer, to everyone. I respect what you are saying and I also accept that you have considered deeply these things. I just wanted to clarify something as I am afraid I put more emphasis on my "experience" than I meant to. I really only meant to say (in a VERY round about way, he-he), please search His word for yourself. This may be redundant, as perhaps you have indeed (as it would appear) already done this, and have not satisfied yourself to these things. Maybe someone else out there has not?! And to tell you the truth I went to the Bible to "disprove" it. It irritated & frustrated me. Not that I knew much, but what people told me bugged me. So yes in a way, I did have a need. I only say this to clarify my earlier post, you have been very kind and I admire your ability to put into words your thoughts. Again, Thank You. May I add one final thought (sorry, as you know, it comes with the "burning building" analogy you gave earlier, he-he).

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then I shall know even as also I am known". 1 CO 13:12.

P.S. Please consider the resurrection, of all claims made by the many "religions", none make this claim. Dont want/mean to start a whole other thread, just wanted to point to the "essential" part of the claims of the Bible. The evidence is quite compelling. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 26, 2000.

Meant to say also, we are going on a canoe trip, leaving in the morning, YIPEE!! Kids can't wait, neither can I. Wish us luck, it's been a LONG time since we have got to "get away"! See ya all later! God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 26, 2000.

Paul: Very well put your "My point isn't that all religions have a path to the truth, but that the capacity to touch such truth is inherent in all of us, but the conclusions we draw from briefly touching it are generally false and are based on our trying to explain the experience within the framework of what we have been taught."

The similarity of the Christians epiphony of the holy spirit you describe and the Zennists satori goes to support my contention---same spiritual phenomenom, different methods and paths, again illustrating a universality of spirit.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 27, 2000.

John,

Here's a metaphor that once nearly got me stoned as a heretic:

Suppose some time long ago somebody left some grape juice sit out too long, but drank it anyway. It wouldn't be too surprising for him to take the feeling it produced as being supernatural. We can well imagine him running around saying "Here is the Holy Drink. God must be in the grapes. Let us all worship the Holy Grape, giver of the Holy Wine."

Meanwhile, some other time and place somebody lets some grain get soaked, but drinks the results and claims "God has given me this Holy Drink. God is in the barley! We must all worship the Holy Barley, granter of the Holy Beer."

Meanwhile, back at the first group some offshoot pops up that says. "Wine was only the first step. Yes God is in the grape, but let us drink the Holy Champaign!"

Elsewhere some guy stumbles out of the rice house shouting, "Sake, Sake ga Kame Desu!" but since none of the beer or wine groups understands him nobody even looks at what is in his bamboo flask.

Every now and then somebody comes along and looks a bit deeper and learns how to build a still, but since their followers are too stoned to go out recruiting their cults die off, only to be periodically reinvented by others.

Once in a while somebody gets a glimpse of the yeast and sugars and forms a cult that leads them to great wealth, but they end up suffering the same fate as the guys with the stills.

There are groups that pop up once in a while that give their followers water and tell them just to act like they see members of the other groups act; that's all that's really to it. These groups generally don't last any longer than the life of their charismatic founders, but people dredge up their teachings from time to time to support their ideas.

To say each group is wrong isn't quite right, since they can produce the feeling they claim they can, but you can't say they all have a piece of the truth either since they do not know about alcohol and it's effects.

It is my belief that devoting one's self to any religion that endures--the ones that offer more than water--will produce a similar effect in enough people to keep that faith strong. That tells me that they are all equal distance from the truth. We, as a race, have developed many intoxicating brews, but we haven't found that which is common to all, but hidden.

I sure do not know what that truth is. I'm not sure if it is knowable. Since the effects can be tangibly demonstrated as yielding correct, or at least self-consistent, results I do not believe, as some philosophers and scientists have claimed, that it is a form of self-hypnosis or some similar mental phenomenon.

By the way, did I ever mention I list my occupation as "philosopher" when asked?

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), August 27, 2000.

Paul: I understand your point very well I think and agree with it. Be it barley, grape, rice, dandalion, or potato, the results are approximately the same and so it goes with "enduring" religions.

One thing I like to keep in mind is that the truth endures while lies die. Were these enduring religions so packed with lies it seems very unlikely they would have endured, including Christianity.

We are told we live in a universe where change is the only constant. At first glance that appears to be true. However upon closer examination it would seem also tho that the laws that govern that eternal change are a universal constant too.

Just as the same laws of consciousness apply to the excessive imbibers the same is true I believe for the faithful.

Meet certain requirements of "faith" and certain results will follow. Before anyone gets too exercised about the analogy, blame Paul(grin), he started it.(more humor!)

By the way, did I ever mention I list my occupation as "philosopher" when asked?

No you didn't. You too?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 27, 2000.

I hope nobody feels I'm saying any given religion is "packed full of lies." I just happen to think that all of the religions that have 'endured the test of time' have glimpsed the truth, but got the details wrong. And, no, I sure don't know what the details are either. There are 'religions' (in some cases 'cults' would be a better word) that seem to have been based on known lies and only served to gain wealth for their founders. These religions do not stand the test of time like Christianity, Judaism and many other faiths have.

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), August 28, 2000.

Good for you, JD, for having such a popular thread here. Like most of the other religious posts, I passed over it until today. Like the demographics of living out in the country, it seems I am a Jew in a countryside full of Christians. Except that my neighbors are kind, open-minded people who find my Sukkah interesting, and don't want to vandalize it, attack me for building one, or imply my everlasting damnation.

You all continue speculating about the Tanakh, Jesus and what you guess Jews think and feel about the 613 mitzvot listed in the Bible. By Bible, understand that I mean the Torah, the Writings and the Prophets, since I do not acknowledge the newer, updated version that you all call the "New" Testament. The one testament is the beginning and the end of my Bible.

Judaism is not a RACE, it is a religion, to those who who are confused. All 613 mitzvot are binding. Thank you, Rebekkah, for clarifying some of the issues so eloquently.

Go ahead and send me nasty emails, all in the spirit of Jesus, no doubt, to keep my blood off your hands. (isn't that selfish?) And to your death believe that my beautiful children will go to Hell for not accepting your Messiah. That's fine, carry that burden with you if you choose.

You can't imagine, or I'm sure you wouldn't say, how crass and self- righteous some of these posts sound to a person of another religion. Heaven forbid there be an atheist Homesteader, a Gay homesteader, whatever -- lurking here on this forum, wanting to ask a question about a goat or a tree -- and reading some of the posts circulated here.

Isn't it good enough for us to be fulfilled with our own spirituality and religious dogma? Aren't our thoughts and beliefs intensely personal in nature? Why do you care how I pray, what I eat, or on which day I hold the Sabbath?

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), August 28, 2000.

Wow!What a thread!

Perhaps I'm jumping in a bit late on this one...well anyways,here goes (I'll try to keep it short):

Two of the most fascinating things about the Bible to me are it's amazing scientific allusions(1)and it's prophecies fulfilled to the letter(2)!I shall endeavor to share a mere sampling of each.

[1]Springs in the sea(el Nino in example)Job 38:16;isostasy-Is.40:12 Ps.104:5-9;Shape of the earth-Is.40:22,Job 26:10,Ps.103:12(coupled with Jesus statement in Luke 17:34-36);Rotation of the earth Job 38:12,14;(you'll also find in Job:erosion,glacial period,fluid dynamics,electrical transmission of info(Job 38:35)and many more- check out the book The Remarkable Record of Job by Henry Morris); Hydrologic cycle-Eccl.1:7,Is.55:10;Evaporation Ps.135:7,Jer.10:13; gravitation-Job 26:7,38:6;The number of stars-Gen.22:17,Jer.33:22- yes,they are of the same magnitude as the sands;Size of the universe- job 11:7-9,22:12,Is.55:9,Jer.31:37;circulation of the atmosphere- Eccl.1:6;Rapid transportation-Dan.12:4;And could anyone tell me how Revelation 11:9-11 could be possible without television?There are so many things more things that I could name in regards to health. Many things about nature.An interesting book:The Biblical Basis for Modern Science.A Bible with good study notes:the Defender's Study Bible.Say,I forgot to mention dinosaurs-Job 40,41-and the uniformitarianistic thinking in regards to origins that we have nowadays-2pet.3:4.

Moreover,every alleged scientific mistake has turned out to be an accuracy after all.

Prophecies:Oh my ,where do I start???There are prophecies regarding the history of the nations.Edom(capital:Petra).Egypt.Babylon.Assyria (Cap.Nineveh)Tyre.Sidon.etc.all fulfilled to the letter.

Prophecies on the sequences of the empires:READ DANIEL!It is "too cool"!

Prophecies regarding God's Chosen People:The nation of Israel: God's promise to bless them that bless thee,and curse him that curseth thee:and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed" has proven true time and again.(And indeed we have been blessed thru the Holy Scriptures and thru Jesus Christ,the seed of Abraham.)Prophecies regarding their wandering:Hos.9:17;Jer.30:11;Duet.28:64,66.Amazing to us,God preserved their integrity as a people despite being so scattered.(I know a man from Kiev,a scientist,a jew,and a believer in Yeshua (Jesus); His last name is Levine!You can't get a much more Jewish name than that,now can you?)The Bible even predicted their(the Jewish People) returning to their land and becoming a nation again! EZ.37:21;Is.11:11,12

Prophecies of the Last Days:too many to number at the moment(it's after 1AM here.)I will mention one:the spirit of our age:2 pet.3:3,4.

The greatest of all Biblical prophecies are the Messianic Prophecies. There are literally hundreds of them.His lineage-humanGen.3:15(of the seed of a WOMAN);thru Shem(G.(:26)Abraham(G.22:18)Isaac(26:4)Jacob (28:14)Judah(49:10)and David(2 Sam.7:12-16).In addition to being Human,He would be uniquely the Son of God(Ps.2:6,7),The Mighty God (Is.9:6),whose goings forth were from everlasting(Micah5:2).He was to be born of a virgin!(Is.7:14)in Bethlehem(Micah5:2).His forerunner was described in Is.40:3 and Mal.3:1.Other verses to consider:Is.61:1,2;42:1-4;9:1,2;Ps.40:7-10,etc.His triumphal entry as the promised King of Israel-Zech.9:9,10;His rejection-Ps.118:22-24. The date of His official coming:Dan.9:24-26!So amazingly accurate skeptics have tried to say that Daniel couldn't have possibly written the book that bears his name!Pierced side-Zech.12:10;darkness-Ps.22.; vinegar-Ps.69:21;mocking-ps.22:6-8;nakedness-22:17; casting of lots for his vesture-22:18,unbroken bones-(34:20),The cry from the cross (22:1)broken heart(:14)The sacrificial nature of His death-Isaiah53:4- 6,10,12.His death with the wicked,His burial in the tomb of the rich- Is.53 again.And finally,His resurrection! Ps.16:10;Hos.6:2;Ps.30:3,9;Is.53:10;Ps.40:1,2;etc. His ascension to sit at the right hand of the Father- ps.110:1;68:18;pr.30:4;ps.16:11;Ps.24:3-10.Etc.etc.etc.

Many of these notes came from the appendix to my study Bible.They are things I wanted to share,but as I could barely keep myself up to type this I know that I wouldn't have made it if I searched everything out for myself.I have to keep shaking my head to stay awake!(nearly2am now!)

Sorry this is long.

Special note to Kirk:Hi!Way earlier(long thread this!)you mentioned all the bloodshed in the name of religion.I agree wholeheartedly that it is terrible!However,far more blood has been shed in the name of antitheism,far more evil done,than can even begin to be compared... Unfortunately,there are those out there who have claimed to be Christians-claimed to be His sheep-when they were nought but wolves wearing wool.Also,what good has antitheism done?There is much,MUCH good that true biblical Christianity has done.So many of our hospitals,universities,so many great writers,artists,musicians;SO very many Bible-believing scientists(look at the life and work of George Washington Carver for one-I wish I could've known him!)and so many who give their lives in service to our Lord everyday-so many just like the Christians here on forum who truly love you and want you to know His amazing love.No,we are not perfect,but praise God He is!Let's get our eyes off of other humans fraught with failures, and get our eyes on Jesus!

signing off Captain!lol. Goodnight everyone,and may God bless you with.He loves you all so much,and He is so alive!!!

~~~Tracy~~~

ps-I welcome private emails if anyone would like to sincerely question or discuss...

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 29, 2000.

Wow!What a thread!

Perhaps I'm jumping in a bit late on this one...well anyways,here goes (I'll try to keep it short):

Two of the most fascinating things about the Bible to me are it's amazing scientific allusions(1)and it's prophecies fulfilled to the letter(2)!I shall endeavor to share a mere sampling of each.

[1]Springs in the sea(el Nino in example)Job 38:16;isostasy-Is.40:12 Ps.104:5-9;Shape of the earth-Is.40:22,Job 26:10,Ps.103:12(coupled with Jesus statement in Luke 17:34-36);Rotation of the earth Job 38:12,14;(you'll also find in Job:erosion,glacial period,fluid dynamics,electrical transmission of info(Job 38:35)and many more- check out the book The Remarkable Record of Job by Henry Morris); Hydrologic cycle-Eccl.1:7,Is.55:10;Evaporation Ps.135:7,Jer.10:13; gravitation-Job 26:7,38:6;The number of stars-Gen.22:17,Jer.33:22- yes,they are of the same magnitude as the sands;Size of the universe- job 11:7-9,22:12,Is.55:9,Jer.31:37;circulation of the atmosphere- Eccl.1:6;Rapid transportation-Dan.12:4;And could anyone tell me how Revelation 11:9-11 could be possible without television?There are so many things more things that I could name in regards to health. Many things about nature.An interesting book:The Biblical Basis for Modern Science.A Bible with good study notes:the Defender's Study Bible.Say,I forgot to mention dinosaurs-Job 40,41-and the uniformitarianistic thinking in regards to origins that we have nowadays-2pet.3:4.

Moreover,every alleged scientific mistake has turned out to be an accuracy after all.

Prophecies:Oh my ,where do I start???There are prophecies regarding the history of the nations.Edom(capital:Petra).Egypt.Babylon.Assyria (Cap.Nineveh)Tyre.Sidon.etc.all fulfilled to the letter.

Prophecies on the sequences of the empires:READ DANIEL!It is "too cool"!

Prophecies regarding God's Chosen People:The nation of Israel: God's promise to bless them that bless thee,and curse him that curseth thee:and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed" has proven true time and again.(And indeed we have been blessed thru the Holy Scriptures and thru Jesus Christ,the seed of Abraham.)Prophecies regarding their wandering:Hos.9:17;Jer.30:11;Duet.28:64,66.Amazing to us,God preserved their integrity as a people despite being so scattered.(I know a man from Kiev,a scientist,a jew,and a believer in Yeshua (Jesus); His last name is Levine!You can't get a much more Jewish name than that,now can you?)The Bible even predicted their(the Jewish People) returning to their land and becoming a nation again! EZ.37:21;Is.11:11,12

Prophecies of the Last Days:too many to number at the moment(it's after 1AM here.)I will mention one:the spirit of our age:2 pet.3:3,4.

The greatest of all Biblical prophecies are the Messianic Prophecies. There are literally hundreds of them.His lineage-humanGen.3:15(of the seed of a WOMAN);thru Shem(G.(:26)Abraham(G.22:18)Isaac(26:4)Jacob (28:14)Judah(49:10)and David(2 Sam.7:12-16).In addition to being Human,He would be uniquely the Son of God(Ps.2:6,7),The Mighty God (Is.9:6),whose goings forth were from everlasting(Micah5:2).He was to be born of a virgin!(Is.7:14)in Bethlehem(Micah5:2).His forerunner was described in Is.40:3 and Mal.3:1.Other verses to consider:Is.61:1,2;42:1-4;9:1,2;Ps.40:7-10,etc.His triumphal entry as the promised King of Israel-Zech.9:9,10;His rejection-Ps.118:22-24. The date of His official coming:Dan.9:24-26!So amazingly accurate skeptics have tried to say that Daniel couldn't have possibly written the book that bears his name!Pierced side-Zech.12:10;darkness-Ps.22.; vinegar-Ps.69:21;mocking-ps.22:6-8;nakedness-22:17; casting of lots for his vesture-22:18,unbroken bones-(34:20),The cry from the cross (22:1)broken heart(:14)The sacrificial nature of His death-Isaiah53:4- 6,10,12.His death with the wicked,His burial in the tomb of the rich- Is.53 again.And finally,His resurrection! Ps.16:10;Hos.6:2;Ps.30:3,9;Is.53:10;Ps.40:1,2;etc. His ascension to sit at the right hand of the Father- ps.110:1;68:18;pr.30:4;ps.16:11;Ps.24:3-10.Etc.etc.etc.

Many of these notes came from the appendix to my study Bible.They are things I wanted to share,but as I could barely keep myself up to type this I know that I wouldn't have made it if I searched everything out for myself.I have to keep shaking my head to stay awake!(nearly2am now!)

Sorry this is long.

Special note to Kirk:Hi!Way earlier(long thread this!)you mentioned all the bloodshed in the name of religion.I agree wholeheartedly that it is terrible!However,far more blood has been shed in the name of antitheism,far more evil done,than can even begin to be compared... Unfortunately,there are those out there who have claimed to be Christians-claimed to be His sheep-when they were nought but wolves wearing wool.Also,what good has antitheism done?There is much,MUCH good that true biblical Christianity has done.So many of our hospitals,universities,so many great writers,artists,musicians;SO very many Bible-believing scientists(look at the life and work of George Washington Carver for one-I wish I could've known him!)and so many who give their lives in service to our Lord everyday-so many just like the Christians here on forum who truly love you and want you to know His amazing love.No,we are not perfect,but praise God He is!Let's get our eyes off of other humans fraught with failures, and get our eyes on Jesus!

signing off Captain!lol. Goodnight everyone,and may God bless you with.He loves you all so much,and He is so alive!!!

~~~Tracy~~~

ps-I welcome private emails if anyone would like to sincerely question or discuss...

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 29, 2000.

Eek!Sorry about the double post!That's the first time I've ever done it!Tomorrow is going to be a rough one!I am tired,and I have 2 Bushels of tomatoes that need canned tomorrow... Goodnight again,again again...~~~Tracy~~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 29, 2000.

>>Go ahead and send me nasty emails, all in the spirit of Jesus, no >>doubt, to keep my blood off your hands. (isn't that selfish?) And >>to your death believe that my beautiful children will go to Hell >>for not accepting your Messiah. That's fine, carry that burden with >>you if you choose.

Rachel, I have no desire to send you nasty emails, but I do have a desire to ask you a question. I work with many Russian Jews here but they don't seem to practice Judaism, if they did I would ask them personally this question. Here it is.

Are the Jewish people still looking for the Messiah to come? If they are, how will they recognize him, how do they expect Him to come and how do they expect him to be so radically different then Jesus?

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

Todd O. <>< IA

-- Todd Osborn (tosborn@cccglobal.com), August 29, 2000.

I haven't read all of the responses yet, I haven't had time. But my thought on the question is, God said my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are higher (not a direct quote). God judges the heart and knows who is truly seeking him. If you ask God for understanding of the scriptures, the Holy Spirit will reveal to you what YOU need to know. Also, it's so wonderful to know there are so many Christians on this forum and that they have great knowledge and understanding and that they're willing to stand strong for God.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), August 29, 2000.

Todd, Yes, Jews are still patiently waiting for the Messiah, may he come speedily and in our day.

Russian Jews have suffered terrible oppression and been denied their own heritage. While most would identify themselves as Jews in faith and belief, they have not had the opportunity or the upbringing to incorporate daily practice. Most synagogues in Russia have been destroyed or converted into other buildings, and most Jewish religious leaders have been persecuted or fled.

When the true Messiah comes, there will be no question in anyone's mind as to his authenticity. God, in his ultimate wisdom, will leave noone uncertain. It isn't important to me how this is revealed, but rather understand that the end of life as I have know it won't be something I will overlook.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), August 29, 2000.

>>When the true Messiah comes, there will be no question in anyone's >>mind as to his authenticity. God, in his ultimate wisdom, will >>leave none uncertain. It isn't important to me how this is >>revealed, but rather understand that the end of life as I have know it won't be something I will overlook.

Rachel, Thank you for your response, but I'm sorry I still don't understand. You said above that God will cause everyone to know it is the Messiah, will this include the Gentiles? If everyone can recognize the Messiah when he comes, will people who have not been looking for him (practicing other religions), have a chance to drop their religion and follow him at that time or is it to late? And does Judiasm teach that people will have a choice to reject him as Messiah or will they have no choice?

I hope that is not to many questions.

Thanks again, Todd O. <>
-- Todd Osborn (tosborn@cccglobal.com), August 29, 2000.

Yes, I don't know, and we all have free will.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), August 29, 2000.

Rachael, Why don't Jewish people believe that Jesus is the messiah? (Specifically?)And if they don't; who do they think He is? And as a Jewish person; have you ever read the new testament? And what do you think about it?

-- Bonnie (josabo1@juno.com), August 29, 2000.

Bonnie, I would encourage you to read some introductory books about Judaism. At the least, you would probably find the history and background interesting. I can't be the representative Jew here, and it's almost 6000 years of belief you are asking me about. No, I do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. By definition, there is no such thing as a Jew who believes in the divinity of Jesus. We are told that the Messiah will be of David's bloodline, and I don't know who He will be. Do you?

I have read parts of the "New" Testament. My impression was that it wasn't my book. I respect that Christians get a lot of meaning and strength from the "New" Testament, and I have no reason to comment on it further. I don't have any issue with Christians being Christian, and I am baffled as to why Christians have a problem with me being Jewish.

To whomever: That's really quite enough email now. I get your point.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), August 30, 2000.

Just guessing, but I would think asking a Jew to get comfy with the New Testament might be like asking your everyday Christian to get comfy with the Book of Mormon. (I have LDS friends, cousins, and my grandparents were... no criticism here). I just personally wouldn't take the time, I guess, since I am already comfortable with what I have. Nice to know about in a general way, though.

And what I think is an interesting side note: my husband was hitchhiking throughout the west a lot before and during our early courship. On one trip east through Nevada, he got a ride with some Born Again Christians on their way to Salt Lake City. Their mission was to convert the Mormons. He thought that was a pretty interesting challenge! Glad for the ride, though...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 30, 2000.

It just took me over 5 minutes to download this thread! I say we move on! Anyone else agree? There's several other religion threads that one could add more to if you want.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 30, 2000.