i donot know if i believe in God like alot of others ,i realy am tring to find that anserw but i do believe in karma. i think our life is a learning one and choices are made every day that will forever change the end result.i am not sure if God even is "real" i have never felt "his "power. i have total joy and love and hate but in my mind i made those feelings not "God". there are so many religions that do not have"god" that i sometimes lean towards them.anyone else?

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 18, 2000

Answers

Rene: I believe Karma is a real thing. If we watch our lives and the lives of others closely you can see it happening.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 18, 2000.

I looked it up to make sure I got the meaning right. My dictionary says "Karma: 1. In Hinduism and Buddhism, the belief that the fate of the soul in its current life is determined by its conduct in former lives. 2. Fate; destiny." (The American Heritage School Dictionary).

Hebrew 9:27 says that every man dies once, and then comes the judgement. Thus, if you were speaking of meaning number one in my dictionary, then NO. I do NOT believe in Karma. It is a part of the Eastern philosophies that are diometrically opposed to Christian thought, that have flooded our thinking thru the media and the "New Age" movement. If you follow the Karma way of thinking to it's logical end, then it is alright to do harm or kill someone, since logically, they must have done something in their past life to deserve it, and they will do better in the next life that you are helping them into. You are actually HELPING them! No thank you!!!!

Now, I do believe that what you reap spiritually, physically, emotionally, etc., in life--is what you get. God sees and knows, and repays. Good comes of good, and bad comes of bad. Hate breeds hate, and love more love. What is it the verse says? "Be not decieved. God is not mocked. What soever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Renee, you may not believe in God right now, but he knows and sees and loves you. There are too many evidences of His being, and creation bespeaks His handiwork. Don't be afraid to look and question Him. He is big enough to handle it, and welcomes the asking of your questions.

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), August 18, 2000.

Leann, Your dictionary is too limited. First, when a pupil asked Buddha if there really was reincarnation, the Buddha basically said "don't worry about it, work on this life." There are Buddhist schools that at least do not stress reincarnation and leave it, at most, as not worth worrying over. Some teachers say flatly that there is no life after this. Ever since the Buddha lived, people have been turning his philosophy on how to live _this_ life into a religion based on rewards and punishments in the next.

Second, the word karma' simply means reaction.' Studying karma is simply the equivalent of a scientist studying actions and reactions in physics, only applied to our decisions and their consequences.

Karma, as I understand it, had nothing to do with what happens after death. And it isn't some big reward and punishment scheme based on merits and demerits for our actions.

When you understand what the original teachings of Buddha said, karma is self-evident in all of life and does not contradict any Christian teaching, as I understand them. What the karma is, simply put, is that each of us, right now at this instant, is simply the sum total of our history. The mood you are feeling right now is produced by the sum total of all of your life. What you decide to have for dinner is another result of your life history.

When you decide whether or not to put cheese on your hamburger, you think you are exercising free will based on your own tastes. But your decision--indeed your tastes--is based on every hamburger and every cheeseburger you have ever eaten. It's based on what experiences you've had with both, with every thing that's lead to your ideas on if the cheese is worth the extra money. A million separate bits of your history have some influence on whether or not you order cheese!

Deciding what to eat might be trivial and has little consequence. And it was a silly example. When we have to make major decisions though, it helps to know _why_ we pick what we do. When you chose your carrier or life mate or lifestyle, for good or bad, was based in part on the results of decisions you made in kindergarten. And your choices now will effect all of your future life in ways you cannot imagine.

Your logical' example does not hold up. Karma (in as near as I can tell) in it's original ideas is your decisions will continue to effect you. It does not say that there will not be other things effecting you. In order of somebody's karma' deciding they should be killed, karma' would have to be an active, thinking thing. The older teachings in Buddhism say expressly that this isn't the case.

The other side of karma is exactly what you stated: " What soever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." but it doesn't take an omnipotent, omniscient God doling out rewards and punishments. It doesn't take to much to see that if I make the people around me happier, I will be more likely to be truly happy myself than if I go around pissing people off. Karma does not, however, guarantee that if I make others happy, I will be happy any more than Christianity _guarantees_ that if I obey all of the rules in the Bible nothing bad will ever happen to me. Bad things happen to good people in every faith and philosophy. And good things happen to bad people.

Renee, I'm not sure how you interpret karma' but I assume it's more in line with the above than with the dictionary's definition. I haven't met anybody yet that's truly tried to see karma in action in everything that hasn't been able to see it. When you toss stones into a still pool, it's easy to see the ripples and know what stone caused each ripple. You can see how the ripples from different stones interact. In the currents of our lives, it takes some training to see the individual ripples, but once we do see them, it helps us understand ourselves and those around us much better. To me at least, that's karma.

If I keep posting to this forum, they'll end up limiting the length of posts!

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), August 18, 2000.

Nice post Paul. Thanks. I would ad Karma is a sanskrit word that also means work or action. It relates to cause and effect. A more modern way of putting it is "What goes around, comes around."

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 18, 2000.

paul i agree 1000% w/ your post. every day life happens because of what was done yesterday. i make choices today that will cause me to pick a certain path in 5 or 10 yrs. from today. what i do effects everyone and what others do effects me. i live my life looking at every event as a challenge not a upset. when i got our lamb i knew i was in for a learning experence and her fate does not lie in my hands but in nature. i will learn ,be challenged and forever changed.

i do not agree w/ the idea that "karma" allows you to harm because in your next life you start over,the same way i do not believe if you are catholic and ask for forgiveness you sins will be forgiven. i do believe in what comes around goes around i see it every day.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 20, 2000.

I agree with Paul, John and Renee on their comments on karma and believe the same as they do. I use the thought of karma to help me decide the way I will live my life. I don't want to contribute negatively to my karma.

I also happen to agree in reincarnation as well which also fits well with karma. Incidentally, reincarnation was mentioned in the dead sea scrolls but for whatever reasons, it was left out of the Bible. I find it interesting that Christians adhere to the truth of the Bible but reject this part, yet they came from the same source. Wonder why only part of the deadd sea scrolls is considered the "truth"?

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), August 21, 2000.

I'm very new to this bulletin board, but a long-time subscriber of Countryside. How refreshing it is to see people leaning a little to the "East".

Regarding karma: you are the sum total of all your past lives, you are the best you can be right now. Thinking about past lives is fun, sometimes it can give you ideas about why you are who you are & not like the rest of your family.. how you got to this point in your life; it's great food for thought. But THIS life is the most important one! Every thought and action you take has an impact right down to the DNA. I agree with 'what goes around, comes around' - one of my favorite in-a-pinch quotes! Karma is referred to so much in the Bible that I'm woe to understand why Christians run from the idea as blasphemy. "An eye for an eye" DOESN'T mean you can go out and kill someone because THEY did it once, it means (and I quote), if you kill, you will be killed... if you steal, you will be stolen from. Get it?

I consider myself a spirit-filled being having a human experience; I live by the 'golden rule'. Maybe the 'label' would be Buddhist because it's the closest thing to what I believe, although I do not chant. All people are holy, all people have purpose in this life, all actions have reactions no matter how small. I am not against Christianity, it's another vehicle to a spirit-filled life. We are all on a path. I have many Christian friends. I admire people who live their spiritual truth (as long as it doesn't involve guns!). It's really all the same thing, no matter what label, we are all trying to get closer to God. Is there some ring of Truth here for anyone else?

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), August 22, 2000.

Debra: Very very nice post!! Cause and effect is so obvious. Sometimes when I get down on things I remember that when this earth was forming in a swirl of dust I existed as possibility. Everything had to evolve just as it has for me to exist NOW and be typing this post. Life is a wonderful mystery I plan to stay awake and experience it!!....Sorry this sounds a bit corny but its true for me......Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), August 22, 2000.

debra, i am making a copy of your post... my husband is what i call a holiday catholic easter and christmas and maybe a sunday now and again. we are always in conflict over the issue yes our kids were baptised, if heaven does exsist how could babies not be welcomed? coul it have something to do what happened before ? could it be cause and effect?

i think to much of the bible has been left out to make it 100% true,or maybe it was written this way to fit someones own motives,i dont know. written in a time of eastern religon i find it odd no vaulus were kept or at least called the same thing.i try to teach some religon to my kids but i find it hard to preach what i can not believe in,i can show them the ripple effect and how it is always in play.

i was raised catholic ,went to a catholic school for 12 yrs.and i still cant believe in the bible as all meaning and true.when i would question it i was told just to accept it and that was that,i always felt like i was being brain washed.

i guess there is no right or wrong answer as long as we all believe in something because one thing is sure we are all going to die.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 22, 2000.

Howdy from NM, Kirk! Thanks for the kind words. Before there was The Word, there was the THOUGHT of The Word. Scary, in a way, that thoughts are things... when you first have that 'A-ha'! From dust to thought to 'now'. My personal interpretation (and it's only that), is that when Christ said to believe in Him is to be renewed... is to have your personal 'A-ha!'... you realize you are the sum total of your being, you ARE at cause in your life (which I equate to the Christ-self). A whole new day. You are right, let's just sit back, stay awake, and enjoy this ride. Thanks again. debra.

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), August 22, 2000.

I've been trying to figure out how to add a SHORT post to this -- it isn't easy to be brief! I do believe in karma if one defines it as Kirk has; one of my strongest beliefs is similar -- whatever you send out will come back to you threefold. Debra really put it succinctly - - the last paragraph of her first post summed up, very closely, my "philosophy"(?).

Colleen, I've wondered the same things about the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't think a lot of people are aware of this though. :-(

So you see, Renee, there are others of similar beliefs out here! ;-)

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), August 23, 2000.

Oops, sorry, I said Kirk, I meant Paul. Sorry, sorry!

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), August 23, 2000.

This is what I think, there are several definitions to the word Karma depending upon what branch of eastern religion it is applied to. I believe that if you use the definition, "what goes around comes around", Karma definitely has some merit. The truth is, what has been going around since the time of Adam, will definitely come around to bite those on the butt who refused to acknowledge God for who he is, and denied his existence by denying the diety of His Son. That coming around is called Hell, and unfortunately there won't be another chance. The good news is God provided another narrow path of faith in Him and His Son, and it is open to all who believe.

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 23, 2000.

There are some here who see karma as being linked with reincarnation. I don't know about the Hindu teachings on such matters, but I would like to talk about my views on the Buddhist teachings.

First, the chain of karma that leads to me sitting here typing this did not begin with some previous incarnation of the conglomeration of separate things I call me' living a previous life. Me' began not because of _my_ karma (as is karma attached in some way to something I can call me') but because my parents karma lead them to having sex. It's rather obvious when you think about it very much that I had nothing to do with that. It was also their physical karma' embedded in their genes that determined the genetic component of my being. Again my karma, from this life or any supposed previous one, had nothing to do with it.

Let me try that again from a different angle. Suppose I' existed in some prior incarnation before I was conceived in this one, how did that prior incarnation's karma cause my parent's to have sex when they did? And how could it have influenced the combination of chromosomes that resulted ultimately in me'? Surely in this day and age one can see that when and where I' was born and my genetics effected me far more than any previous life could have.

There are many Buddhist teachings attributed to the Buddha that use stories about reincarnation to explain things. The Buddha used whatever metaphors the students of that day would understand. There is also a good argument to be made that reincarnation-type karma was invented later as a way of answering such questions as "Why was I born a peasant?" and "Uncle Louie tried to live according to the rules, but always had a hard life." It keep the masses in line by saying their peasantness is punishment for some prior sin' and Uncle Louie will get his reward in the next life. Such questions, in other lessons, were brushed off as not being worth thinking about and irrelevant to this life. I may be a peasant, but pondering why will not change that--I still have to live with the fact of my peasanthood no matter why I am one.

Other core teaching of the Buddha however state very explicitly that there is no self.' The me' I referred to does not even exist _now_, let alone before this assemblage came together into something I can try to call me.' If I' don't exist, there is nothing to reincarnate.

Karma, as I see it, isn't even mystical. It depends on nothing that isn't directly observable in the everyday world. Studying it need not lead to any conclusions that are not directly observable in this world. It's simply a philosophy to help understand this life. Blaming (or crediting) your current existence on some past life, or looking forward (or dreading) some future reward (or punishment) in the next life is simply escapism that causes you to miss the wonders and mysteries of _this_ life.

I realize that I'm using Buddhist teachings as part of the basis for my ideas, but they are contrary to most of the current Buddhist schools. I do not consider myself a Buddhist' but studying Eastern philosophy has helped me firm up my own beliefs. There may be teachings in Buddhism that contradict my ideas, but there are ones that support them as well. There is a great deal of blatant contradiction within the lessons attributed to Buddha, and different schools have always picked-and choose what they wanted and how to interpret it.

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), August 23, 2000.

Debra, very nice post. You said a lot in a little space. I too believe I am a spirit-filled being. I also believe I am working my way back to God and feel that as long as anyone is doing that it doesn't really matter what path they choose to find Him. I believe in Jesus but not necessarily all of the teachings that some Christian religions teach today. I think it is sad that many Christians (Little Bit is an example) that believe there is only one way and that is theirs. Everyone else is not going to make it. I believe that Jesus was sent to get us back on track to loving our fellow man and living a Godlike life. I'm glad to hear there are plenty of others on this Forum with a more open mind and a loving heart.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), August 24, 2000.

Little Bit, Amen.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), August 24, 2000.

Howdy all. Think I'll try and put this one to rest for me; it could be a very loooooong thread. I'm not a well-read person, just an average Jane America. Was born to a Christian family, Southern Baptist & Pres; we were those ones that went to church every Easter... whether we needed it or not! My view, even at a young age, was that this was a pretty big fashion show first & a gossip session afterwards ('Can you imagine, she wore a RED dress to church!'). Never has been my cup o' tea. Now, of course, that was church, not spirituality. Hell is a state of mind (and I'm not there, by the way!). 'Suffering' is ongoing, your life's lessons, mental gymnatstics, as it were, 'tis all. Why do some people NEED to believe God is that big grandfather with the long white beard on the throne in the sky with the tallybook?? Does this make it more 'human'? I believe when the Bible says God made man in His own image, it meant spirit, not flesh-form. Folks, we ARE God. We are not puppets in this world, with no Will of our own. We create our own version of hell.

Anyone out there ever read "Right Use of Will"? It's been a very long time for me, dunno who I lent it to, but it colored a lot of my thoughts. (Opps, I think I'm perpetuating the thread...)

This has been a very interesting session, keeping me from working. Love & light to you all; life is good. debra in nm

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), August 24, 2000.

Renee, this is a great thread. I found reading these to be very enjoyable, so I guess that makes your posting of the topic good karma! I'm Jewish, and I try to be open-minded about spiritual matters, esp. when they are someone else's spiritualality. I believe in karma, can't see how a person can't.

Little Bit Farm, your posts are blatantly offensive to some people, I hope you are sensitive to that fact. You are perfectly entitled, but indulge me the moment to remind you that you do not have a corner on the truth. With all of the diversity on this planet, an intelligent person like yourself can't possibly believe that there is one absolute truth for all people. If you are trying to be offensive so as to "wake up" people to Jesus, kindly consider another approach. I will pray for you to find understanding, and I will pray directly to G-d, not to G-d through Jesus. Believe me, Jews are profoundly certain that G-d hears us just fine without Jesus.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), August 25, 2000.

Little Bit,

I wouldn't change a word! You go girl!

-- melissa (bizemom@netzero.net), August 25, 2000.

This thread is like a breath of fresh air!! I loved it! And thank you Rachel for speaking out! People of open minds is sooo refreshing.......Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), August 26, 2000.