I've been living off the grid for twelve years now. Only recently bit the bullet and had a phone line installed ($2250 thank you very much). I get 90-95% of my electricty from solar panels. To make up the deficit, I fire up the generator and charge my batteries. This system has worked fine over the years. There is the inconvenience of having a small icebox (nat gas Sibir) which will make ice in the summer, but won't keep ice cream solid. No deep freezes. Small t.v., limited vcr use, etc. I didn't hook onto the electrical grid because it would've cost 75K.

Now I've got a developer who's building a private 80 acre lake. My property surrounds his on two sides. He's told me I could hook up to his electrical and water grid this fall when the lines are put in.

Negatives...if I bring electricity to my house, some unfriendly and unpleasant relatives would be able to move in next to me. Noisy, rowdy, trailer trash, etc. Have stolen from me in the past, etc.

Right now I'm only using 3 gallons of gas for the generator on average months, and seven gallons on 'bad/cloudy' months. The minimum charge (meter reading fee)for electricity is 7.50 a month.

Pros...I could get a tv big enough to watch, bright electric lights, sometimes hard to read by Humphrey lights, unlimited bread machines, a desktop computer with all the frills.

Or, should I just go with a natural gas fired generator to charge a larger battery bank. My natural gas is free. Hard choices. Alternative systems take maintenance and daily monitoring, whereas the 'grid' is goof proof. No matter what I'll keep my infrastucture intact so that when the grid goes off (if I 'do' hook up)I'll have electricity available.

-- phil briggs (phillipbriggs@thenett.com), August 04, 2000

Answers

Personally, I'd go with the NG fired gen set and bigger batteries. Lousy neighbors are forever.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 04, 2000.

I say a dark and stormy life is imminently better than ugly neighbors. I've had neighbors that I'd move into a Pinto to get away from, but no lights or running water (during childhood and hurricanes) has never been more than an inconvenience. Granted, grid life fixes a lot, but the only way to fix bad neighbors leaves suspicious-looking freshly turned flower beds in your back yard.

-- Soni Pitts (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), August 05, 2000.

question: would your relatives be living on your land? or would they be able to move in and hook up to the developers lines on their own? if this is the case you might as well have the grid but i think you are smart to keep your old system too. if your relatives won't have acess unless you do read the current thread on the neighbor from hell. i think i would rather have a candle or just the sun for light than know i am going into a situation like that. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef123@hotmail.com), August 05, 2000.

if you have any chance of getting bad neighbors i would stay the same way . BAD NEIGHBORSARE NOT WORTH IT TRUST ME!!!! I i often turn offthe breakers to make a point around here.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 05, 2000.

Phil! You're off grid and thinking about hookin up? Why? You seem to have everything now. Not tellin you what to do but if it were me in your shoes---I'd probably upgrade the genset thing, more batteries, slow 1800 rpm nat gas generator and let the power company keep their expensive current. You're are most blessed to have what you have and I can't see how you would improve your lifestyle by hookin up. With the conviences of grid also come a whole bunch of problems that you don't have now. Lines surges. lightning and don't forget those "Bills" each month. My 2 cents. hoot. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), August 05, 2000.

Phil, on your pro list you left out air conditioning, the East Texans friend!!! LOL I do not understand the situation with your relatives. Do you live on inherited land? Do they already own the land next to you? If so, they may very well come in now that the electricity is near anyway, whether you get on grid or not. If they don't own the land and are expecting to live beside you anyway, friend, tell them NO and to go away. I know about living next to kinfolks that are less than desireable, even dangerous neighbors. I also know about living near kinfolks that think you are some sort of bank and want to borrow from you. I would do what ever is necessary to avoid having these relatives move near. And if they came anyway, I would consider selling my land to the developer if he wanted it.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), August 05, 2000.

go ahead and get on the grid, use it for refrigerator and freezer and a few other luxuries.

the problem neighbor? no problem...get a couple of Livestock guardian dogs, or don't tell anyone you have it.

-- Ima Gardener (ima@gardener.com), August 05, 2000.

The relatives own land next to me. I have an ironclad right of way to my property. They do not have 'paper' to their place, but they access it across my road anyway. The developer definetely won't 'give' them a r.o.w. for line construction from his grid, across his property to theirs. I'm afraid if I hookup, the line will be so close to their property, that poles won't have to be set. I guess the power company would still have to have an easement across my property to theirs but I'm not for certain.

Yes, A/C is probably the first thing I'd have. I don't mind the heat too much, BUT, if A/C were available, I'd most certainly use it. I may be a Stoic, but I'm not 'stoopid'.

Guard dogs wouldn't last long. These folks raise the bad kind of bulldogs. Used for catching wild hogs. I've warned em if their dog gets after my housedog daschound, I'd come after them and their dogs.

I may get a natural gas carburetor for my current genny. And later get a 'store bought' natural gas genny. I've priced the nat. gas carbs, and their less than $200. I'd get a set of large IBE batteries and a whole house full time inverter for 2K, and should be trouble free for another ten/fifteen years. Also contemplating an Air 403 wind genny, my new pond's opened up a lot of space and the wind is always strongest on days when the sun don't shine.

-- phil briggs (phillipbriggs@thenett.com), August 05, 2000.

I've never seen a natural gas generator run, is it as noisy as the gas ones? As someone w/free gas and hoping to get off the grid, I am curious. It will be several years before we can afford to set up a system.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), August 05, 2000.

Phil! Followup on an item or two. The Nat.Gas carb sounds rather expensive to me. Course, I'm a tightwad. You don't really need to buy a new or different carb just to run nat gas. You can "drill" the one you already have. Simple and easy and CHEEEEEP! Results are the same only you'll save 200 bucks. If you wanna know how-holler! It can also be done for burning L.P. just as easily. In fact, one can "drill" their gasoline carb to burn nat or lp gas and still burn gasoline--- if done properly----when they want. Another option is to locate an older 'light plant'. Old dudes can sometimes be bought cheap. I bought an old 5kw made onto the 4cyl gas engine with carb for gasoline or nat/lp. Paid $200 for it. Copper wound, 1800 rpm but only 120 volt ac output. It also has a 12 vdc for charging battery. It's a Kohler. I also bought a 5kw Onan hooked to a Ford 8n engine. It's also equipped to burn either gasoline of nat/lp. Paid $300 for it. Both these units are old---like 1948 for the Ford. Kohler is even older but they both are much better than the new little 3600 rpm jobbies that set ther and SCREAM just wainting to blow up. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), August 05, 2000.

Hoot, I'm always interested in savin money. I've needed a new tv for two years...I've jury rigged my little 13" tv with a stick. It stopped working, so I took it apart and couldn't figure out any solution. So I hit it with a stick. It worked for a few seconds. I hit again and it worked as long as I hit it. Found the 'sweet spot' area and wedged a stick up against it. Works now, as long as you don't bump the bookcase.

I might have tried to rig the n.g. to the genny, but a little skittish. Two years ago I was fooling around with regular gas and liked to have blown myself up. Burnin a brush pile, the fumes spread faster than I thought they could, and got blown about ten feet back.

So, definitely, if you have a solution, I'd certainly try it. I'm pretty handy (how I make my livin).

-- phil briggs (phillipbriggs@thenett.com), August 05, 2000.

Phil, the natural gas set up sounds better all the time. Would it also be possible to get a natural gas air conditioning set up? Then you would only have to have electricity to run the fan, wouldn't you? Air conditioning is a high priority here. Old fat women don't do well in hot weather. We get irritable. Also, Pilgrim's Pride's chicken operation up the road from me is belching out who knows how much dust, powdered chicken manure, and feathers in the air here constantly with their exhaust fans. Also the sweet smell of manure. Anyway, if the neighbors/relatives come up wanting right of way, I would make them go to court to get it deeded. They will have to pay all the court costs and transportation costs for the jury to come out and stomp around and decide where to put their easement so that it doesn't damage your ability to use the land. If they have to pay something out of pocket, it will probably cut into their desire to have an easement, especially if they don't have electricity. And yes, you would still have to sign a paper for the electric company to get an easement to string a line to their property anyway. At least I did on my other property. You might contact the electric company and see what all the legal ins and outs would be. Good luck.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), August 06, 2000.

Phil: I recently pondered the same thing myself and decided against it. Grid power is now close enough to me that I could have it for around $5000 compared to $15,000 a few years ago. I too have solar power and do fine in the summer months, in the winter I have to run the generator a couple times a week to compensate for the sun.

It would be nice to have all the conveniences that would go along with grid power, (a water pump, microwave, using the computer and TV as much as I want, etc.) but an electric bill would mean that I have to work full time, (I am part time now) and to me it would be losing a little bit of my independence that I have struggled to obtain and maintain. One advantage to having power close, is that it makes your property worth more in the event you ever want to sell.

-- Marci (ajourend@libby.org), August 06, 2000.

If you're going to stay put, I'd stay off the grid. Look at what's happening in California with deregulation--bills doulbling and tripling. It's just going to get worse. Wish I could be off the grid but the spouse needs cable TV and air-conditioning.

-- Sandy (smd2@netzero.net), August 06, 2000.

I tried to buy a natural gas air conditioner two years ago and could not find a local person/firm to sell me one, or maintain it if I bought it elsewhere. A real drag for me since our natural gas is free. Unfortunately we are not handy enough to build one ourselves, maybe you would be able to..except if you could, seems to me you would have already, as hot as it is there! If someone knows where to buy one, I'd like to know for future reference. Thanks in advance.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), August 06, 2000.

Phil! Converting a gasoline carb to burn lp or natural gas. Locate a place on the side of the carb at or about the location of the ventura. Drill an 1/8" hole and tap it with pipe thread. Thread in a small pipe about 2 inches long. If you have an adjustable needle valve, to control the amount of gas passing through the valve, attatch it to the pipe. Adjust the flow of vapor so the engine runs smoothe. For Nat. gas it will take a little more of an open valve than for l.p. L.P. burns hotter and is more concentrated with less air and other noncombustables than nat. gas. If you don't have an external needle valve a small valve will work fine. Keep it as close to the engine as possible. Once it's set you'll have very little trouble with the engine running on it. The engine can also be run on gasoline as long as nothing was disturbed on the linkage etc. I din't do mine this way--i wasn't gonna run it on gasoline anymore anyhow. I removed the gasoline inlet line to the carb at the float valve/needle valve and installed my fitting there. Works fine! For nat. gas you'll need a regulator that has a working pressure of 3 1/2 oz while l.p. will have a working pressure of 6 1/4 oz. Of course you don't have to have'm exactly this setting but should be rather close. To "choke or prime" use your regular choke lever. If i didn't explaine it good nuff let me know and i'll snail mail ya some picts of my settup. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), August 06, 2000.

Anne! Arkla Servel makes a gas chiller that works on lp or nat gas. I don't know where you live but sombody should handle them around there. They are very effecient when maintained properly. It does take quite a little current to operate one. Two fans and one pump. The pump is a cadalliac power steering pump that pumps power steering fluid against a diaphram that in turn pumps cooled water to circulate through the A coil inside the house furnace. Lots' of'm were sold around these neck of the woods several years ago and a bunch have been junked just because old duffers like me are dy in off and young servicemen don't know how to maintain'm. Not braggin--just fact. Anyhow, if you can locate one of those you'd be money ahead in the long run. The initail cost is more than the current hoggin compressor type being promoted by manufacturers. More info--email me. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), August 06, 2000.

Thanks Hoot, I've got a needle valve somewhere. If not, it's still a whole lot cheaper than the 180-200 for the prefab kit. I've got several small engines lying around. Will experiment on them 'fore I start doctoring my main genny.

-- phil(tx) (phillipbriggs@thenett.com), August 07, 2000.

Well, I've never been off the grid except for camp. You missed a couple of advantages of being hooked up. 1.Time. Flip a switch and it's there, and even with increases over the years, it's still pretty cheap. How much time do you spend to keep your system going compared to the same amount of electricity from the grid? I suspect you are selling your time for pennies per hour. 2. "Appliances". I'm not necessarily talking washer/dryer stuff here. Incubator - hatch your own chicks. But I will mention TV. We gag on the garbage offered by the "over the air" networks. In fact, I don't believe we have watched anything but local news or an occasional sports event on the networks. I DO NOT CARE who wants to be a kazillionaire, or which dippy twit lasts longest on a faux island. With a dish, we watch Discovery, History, and other truly entertaining and educational channels for a very reasonable rate. 3. Lighting. I empathize with the Humphreys. My aging eyes get tired without a good reading lamp, and my time to read is usually after dark. Believe me, your eyes will thank you. 4. Electric fencing - the ONLY relatively inexpensive way to keep piggies in check. 5. Don't worry about the neighbors. Get a nice cheap military surplus rifle and equally inexpensive ammo (I can tell you where). Cook off a few rounds each week for the fun of it. Act just oddly enough for the neighbors to think you are half a bubble off of plumb. Join the NRA (which you should anyway) and display the member decal prominently. Occasionally say "Ayuh!" which will make people think you are from Maine, as we are, and therefore willing to accept newcomers once they have reached the 3rd generation. 6. Enjoy, and GL!

-- Brad (Homefixer@SacoRiver.net), August 10, 2000.