let's just start this off by saying i do not know much about animals. i am only recently learning about them from the woman a live with. i rent a room from a woman who has one horse of her own(foxtrotter)and boards two others (pacifino(sp) and quarterhorse). the problem started about a week and a half ago. the first two horses starting becoming very demanding and somewhat aggressive. when we would go to turn them out in the pastures to graze they would bang on the gates and start stomping around. when she feeds them the try to push her and snort. about 4 days ago the quarterhorse arrived on the property. we kept her seperated form the other two until she got used to things. yesterday cherri had the other horses loose around the yard, when she went to open the gate to check on the third horse the horses charged and and almost knocked her down. they ran up to the stall where the quarterhorse was and the foxtrotter tried to trampel and bite the horse. cherri is very upset by all this recent new behavior and is not sure what to do. i would sum it all up to the fact that there is a new horse here but a lot of the behavior started before she arrived. any sugestions?

-- Amber (ambrosia75_@hotmail.com), July 31, 2000

Answers

Amber:

My suspicion, and it is just that, is the behavior is being caused by something in their diet. Perhaps something they are eating in the pasture or a mineral or vitamin deficiency. Call a horse vet and ask them. Please let us know if anything turns up.

-- Ken S. (scharabo@aol.com), July 31, 2000.

it almost seems they are getting spoiled,when our pony first got here she would drag you to the field and run you over when it was feeding time.we would walk her to the field gate ,shank around her nose, open the gate walk her in turn around and lead her out, we would do this 5 to 6 times at each day. she got the point that if she walked quitely we would release her if not it was out and start again.at feeding time we moved her bucket, she would run up to the barn toeat no food until she stood nice and calm. all this took a good month but my 4 yr. old can lead her w/ no problem now .how about seperatting the 2 "old" horses and turning the new on out w/ one "old one at a time?

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), July 31, 2000.

the horses have learned there the leaders, When I went to work at the horse ranch I work at I would watch the owner [55 years old lady]lead the horses and when they would get to close she would wack them on the nose with the lead rope, thought how mean,2 and a 1/2 years there have taught me that is the way to go, horses are large and can kill you with out meaning to[our gelding came close to spliting my head open when I was walking him once]The horses on this ranch have been taught to keep a respectable distance and to respect who is leading them and they are easy to lead for the most part.Renee had a good sugestion to.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), July 31, 2000.

First of all I have to agree with a couple of other posts - these horses have no respect for the woman and need to be taught basic manners. They do need to be separated and worked with one at a time. If the fox trotter and paso fino are geldings and the quarterhorse a mare that can cause problems as well. The geldings might still "think" they are studs.

I would also check on what changed in their environment before the quarterhorse arrived - new weeds in the field, change in feed, different source of hay???

The woman needs to do something and quick before she gets hurt or one of the horses gets seriously hurt.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), July 31, 2000.

thanks for the quick answers. i printed it out and will give it to my roomate. we have been gone a lot and i don't think they have been handled enough. usually they are good about following us into the gates when we are putting them in but lately they have been stinky about it. i was telling cherri that maybe we should have their harnesses(sp)on when they are out roaming so they are more managable. i do womp them on the nose when they get pushy. i don't think we will be introducing them one by one because the owner would prefer that they are kept seperate. the quarterhorse is 27 yrs. old and is very passive.

-- Amber (ambrosia75_@hotmail.com), July 31, 2000.

My horses never got quite that bad, but when the punk neighbor kids were shooting them with BB guns at night they became very unruly all the time. Might check and see if anything else is going on with them.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), August 01, 2000.

I work here at the American Paint Horse Association and I asked some of the writers at our magazine who are horse experts, I guess you would say, and they all agreed that the horses need to be worked with more. Just handle them and give them a little more training. It might be a good idea to ask a vet about the diet but most here don't think that would cause the problem. Just work with them more.

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), August 01, 2000.

Amber, it is usually best to remove the halters when the horses are turned out, as they can get them caught on something and get hurt. Horses are very good at getting themselves hurt!! Other than that, you've got some good advice in the answers already given.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), August 01, 2000.

I'm not going along with this WOMPING on the nose.This can make a horse very head shy. I have been a professional trainer for 20 years and the toughest thing I would do to a horses head it put the chain of a lead shank over the nose wrapped around the halter. Their treatment of a new horse is not unusual. The two original horses were establishing their place, which is the sme thing they are trying to do with the human handlers. I would seperate the to old pals and work on them individually, don't let their combined size and strength work to their benefit. Be consistant, but not mean or angry. Good Luck

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), August 01, 2000.

I agree they need to be worked with more & with authority. I trained my horses the same as my kids! They knew by my tone of voice I meant business! I was not afraid of them & they knew by my actions/ & my tone of voice/ when their behavior was not apporiate! I didn't ever yell---it was a lower stern voice/ that said, I had, had enough! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), August 01, 2000.

Diane, when i used the word "womp" i think it might have been percieved a little more abusive than it is. i am NEVER mean or abusive toward the horses! But when they are getting unruly and trying to back me into a fence i do react and they back off. i have not found them to be head shy because when i meet them in the pasture we usually nuzzle and i give them a good scratch. since the original post they have been on several rides and seem to be acting a little better. i think the handling thing was the right answer. the debate is still out on whether we will introduce them to the other horse. another question...a neighbor said that are large wellow weeds growing in one pasture is ragweed and is toxic. could this have something to do with it? the weed is now being pulled up.

-- Amber (ambrosia75_@hotmail.com), August 01, 2000.

===usually they are good about following us into the gates when we are putting them in but lately they have been stinky about it. i was telling cherri that maybe we should have their harnesses(sp)on when they are out roaming so they are more managable.===

Clarification here ~ harnesses are worn when a critter is hitched to a wagon or cart. You evidently mean halters. Horses are an accident waiting to happen. I know of many who have died due to the owner leaving a halter on ~ a foal who strangled when his halter got caught on the faucet of the bathtub being used as a waterer; the horse who used a hind leg to scratch his face and a hoof got stuck in the halter. He went bullistic; halters getting caught on fence posts have done some in; protrusions in the barn do harm; etc., etc., etc.

In a herd of wild horses, there is an alpha ~ the lead mare. That's what the owner has to become. Not by brutality, but by common sense. I would prefer a critter work for me out of respect than fear. If you ever have a chance to watch a wild herd, you can learn a lot to see how manners are taught and how the pecking order takes place.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), August 02, 2000.

Rogo, i did mean halters. i knew when i was typing it sounded strange. We haven't had their halters on them when they are in the pasture and it will stay that way. I did notice that when i drive by the two stables in our area the horses that are in the turn outs all have halters on. why would both stables (one highly respected) be doing this? again thank you everyone for your advice.

-- Amber (ambrosia75_@hotmail.com), August 02, 2000.

Amber, the stables leaving the halters on are like criminals robbing banks ~ it won't happen to me. The criminal won't be caught and the stable won't have a horse die/be maimed.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), August 03, 2000.

For my 2 cents worth --I totally agree with Rogo! He just says it so much better than I could! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), August 03, 2000.

Amber, A horse learns quickly what he can or can't get away with. Even so, he will test the limits at times to see if the rules have changed. If a horse gets away with something once, he will be even more determined to do it the next time. Correction must be swift and consistent. If you correct him for something once, but not the next time, you've only taught him to test the limits more. I carry a short riding crop on a thong aroung my wrist. IMO, a slap on the nose is only appropriate if he has done something with his head that needs correction, ie.. pushing or biting, etc. Try to apply the switch to the part that needs correction. If our horses get pushy on lead, I carry a longer switch and hold it horizontally in front of them at the distance I expect them to lead. I'm not an expert, but I have noticed that our horses always have to fight a little when they are first introduced to one another. Let them get aquainted with the new one in a pen if possible, but when you first turn them out together, stay out of the way. I learned this the hard way, the most well behaved gelding we own bit me on the arm instead of the newcomer! Good Luck.

-- Mona (jascamp@ipa.net), August 07, 2000.

I keep reading the horse postings, and I frequently find that the posters are not giving enough information on the entire situation. It seems VERY strange to me that a horse, just turned out into a nice lush pasture of good grass is going to start banging on the gate to get out again. What size is your pasture and what have you gotit planted with? Is it over-run with weeds? One dickweed I used to board my horses with kept touting how great his pastures were, all that green stuff. Well, that 'stuff' was knotweed, ragweed, meadow buttercups (poisonous), greater mullen, evening primrose, and other un-eatables. There was almost no true grazing. That'll get a horse cranky in a hurry -- they'll want to go to the barn where the hay (real food) is (hoping you bought good hay that is). Don't feed the horses grain out loose inthe pasture, I've seen too many people trampled and kicked by the fights going on. I can walk among my mares with fair impunity because they DO see me as the alpha mare, as well as several viewing me as their MaMa since I raised them from foals. Not everyone can do this safely, and even so, I keep my eyes open at all times for the odd occurance that could bring disaster. A horse that suspects that you have grain is going to push you to see if it can get it faster. The best thing to do is avoid the situation entirely so they won't associate you with these things -- I don't usually hand-feed treats to my horses, altho with the exception of the one with nerve damage in his face, they won;t bite you...but I HAVE had a horse snatch at food and get my hand by mistake. My finger was peeled to the bone. I don;t do it anymore, and my horses still love me (that wasn't my horse. All my worst experiences are with someone else's horses). If these horses aren't doing enough work to merit grain, don't feed it. Grain isn't natural to a horse's diet, and it has been added by humans for their own convenience. I grain all of mine, but the mares are on a handful (literally) each for the sole purpose of shutting them up at the time they're graining all the overfed horses. Horses are meant to graze all day, and with good pasture, that should be enough.

You also didn't say how much experience this person has with horses...why does it sound like not much? I so often see well trained horses go home from our barns to people who 'want them at home' and next thing you know, the horse is back to be resold because of all it's 'problems' -- ones that we never had with the horse, and usually dominance issues. I don't mean that the horse is supposed to be subjugated to the will, I mean that the horse is a herd animal with its own social structure that humans have inserted themselves into, very often without knowing the game rules. And a horse at a thousand pounds plus can play the game VERY hard.

Having said that, I would recommend a good trainer. Preferably a John Lyons or Pat Parelli graduate. It will cost you money, but if you want to keep these horses, it may be the only road. Buying another horse that is 'well-trained' may or may not workand you may just be out that much more money. Also beware of what you buy in a horse -- some day you MAY want to sell him!

My final comment has to do with hormones/genetics. I have been inand out of different barns with different breeds and different trainers over the years. I've gotten a bunch of horsese that I can work with, that is, ones that interface with my personality. I love horses, I've been horse-crazed since I was 5, but with maturity, I have come to realize that yes, there ARE some bad horses, and they are out there for sale. I am not saying that your horses are like this, I will merely relate my own experiences and observations. I have seen 2 (count 'em, 2) Thoroughbreds that I would pay money for. I have seen hundreds. They are being bred for speed and performance ability, and NOT for their personality and how well they will live with a human host. Thoroughbreds have been bred extensively into other breeds, such as Quarter Horses, Appaloosas, and Paints. It is much to the detriment of those breeds, in my opinion. I like old-type QH's, and old-type Morgans (without the Saddlebred factor), as well as nice, sane American-bloodline Arabians. Every breed has a bloodline or two that needs to be thrown out of the gene pool, and you have to know your horses well to know what they are. I have heard (and experienced once) alarming reports of attacks ofhorses on humans that do totally come out of the blue. Stallions often, but also geldings on the upswing (the one I witnessed was a gelding, a beautiful and "well-bred" QH that I would have gladly shot for you -- he attempted to kill a human and another horse. He was sold to another owner instead...bet he didn't come with a warning label either!) I was at one facility where two Thoroughbred geldings broke down a fence to get into the paddock adjoining with my two pony fillies in. They then proceeded to chase down, bodyslam my connemara filly to the ground, and stomp on her. She was less than a year old, still at the 'gumming' stage that foals clack their lips together to show older horses that they are a harmless baby and not to be hurt. It obviously meant NOTHING to these two. Thanks to Albert, my 17 year old QH gelding of old stock type, they were saved. He ran to join the melee and physically blocked the two geldings from further harming the two fillies, and repeated to do so until we could get them out of the pasture and safely into hte barn. He may have acted partially out of hormones, because altho he had been gelded over 14 years earlier, he still fancies himself David Niven to the mares (altho he's more like Brian Denehy), but the point is,I think that all of these geldings were acting according to hormones -- but the two thoroughbreds have been bred to be 'aggressive' on the track and over fences, and they turned out to be aggressive toward mares too. They are, in essence, rapist mentality. They are not my horses and I wouldn't give you a dime for either one (thank god they're gelded at least and not in the gene pool). Albert, however, is worth his weight in gold, altho I got him free because his previous owner thought "he is too loppy for anyone to want to ride him". SHE is the owner of one of the two geldings that tried to savage my filly, her 'replacement' for Albert.

I will say that those two geldings were neither one anywhere near as bad singly as they were turned out together. I began to refer to them as Leopold and Loeb -- together, they thought murder was a fine idea. I sincerely HOPE that you have not stumbled onto this kind of a duo.

I will also say that as a matter of course, I do not board my horses at any place that has general turnout of mares and geldings together. Not that it can't work, I have seen fine examples where it DOES work just fine, but there is invariably some gelding who gets stud-ish and starts to harem the mares and won't let you have your mare out of the herd when you want to ride, or starts to fight the other geldings because of it. However, if you add the mare to the mix, you may change the whole dynamics and it could be for the worse. You willhave to approach this with GREAT caution since you already have two males there who are trouble in the brewing. Keep the mare adjacent for a while, like a couple months. Introduce one only of the geldings into her pasture at a time, whichever one seems to get along with her the best and observe from there. You may be able to work it out, but I'd feel a whole lot better for your safety if you got some professional help/advice with this. I know it's hard to finda reliable professional if you don't know what you're looking for to begin with, but perservere. You may also be better off selling one of the geldings and breaking this up.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), August 26, 2000.

Two things can cause a lot of problems with livestock; living quarters and feeding. Many folks feed a diet hotter than needed and house critters in a small area where they can't work off all that extra energy they've been fed. Few need the amount of grain they're getting. Most, unless they're working cattle or some such thing, don't need grain at all.

Feeding some critters treats by hand, teaches them to bite ~ and to always expect a treat when they see you ~ since they don't know where the treat ends and you hand begins. Teeth follow lips!

The horse in the wild will graze about 18 hours/day. They have small stomachs. The domestic situation has them being fed heavy meals 2-3 times a day.

I've been fortunate as I've never stalled/penned my livestock and they've had acreage to move around on and work off the calories. I also free feed. Some places I've lived, where there was no pasture, I free fed Bermuda pellets ~ with no grain. I'm a trail rider and like to go out for 5-7 hours at a time. My mount has plenty of energy. Presently, my stock is on Coastal grass pasture, 24/7. No additional feed except a trace mineral salt block and water. Free feeding makes any training so much easier; they're not concentrating on their bellies, they're concentrating on me.

There is always going to be a pecking order when a new member joins the herd, even tho the new one has been separated from the herd by a fence for a while.

You don't necessarily have to turn to a professional for help. Perhaps there's a neighbor in your area you respect for how they handle their stock. Critter folks are usually very willing to help other critter folks.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), August 28, 2000.