Response: Are all homesteaders religious

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-----Original Message----- From: Todd Osborn To: csymag@midway.tds.net Date: Friday, June 23, 2000 9:04 AM Subject: Re: In response to Are all homesteaders religious

>From: Rebekah >Subject: Response to Are all homesteaders religious? >Date: 2000-06-22 > >I for one, find the concept to be very appealing and liberating, and after much searching of the scriptures, >cannot find anywhere, where it says that if you are not born again, you will burn in hell and be tortured forever >and ever and ever!

Hi Rebekah, I read your words very carefully, I would like to respond as best as I can.

Regarding the issue of being born again, Jesus himself said: "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. John 3:3

If your (spirit) is not born again it is dead to God and you won't see the kingdom of God, Jesus said here that He was telling the truth, don't you believe Him?

Regarding hell, If a person won't see the kingdom of God, there must be another place he/she will see. This other place is a place so terrible that it is sometimes described as a place where people will be gnashing their teeth together because of their extreme pain.

But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8:12 NIV

They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Matthew 13:42 NIV

and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:50 NIV

"Then the king told the attendants, `Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'Matthew 22:13 NIV

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Matthew 24:51NIV

And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' Matthew 25:30 NIV

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. Luke 13:28 NIV

>>How many of us would wish that on someone who was a good person, but wasn't saved when they died? If >>we being human and finite, wouldn't exact such a punishment, how in the world can we attribute something like >>that to an eternal, perfect, infinitely wise being whose mercy endureth >>forever?

Yes it is true, God is all these things that you mentioned above and He is huge on mercy & grace (unmerited favor). But to be holy and perfect like He is, He also has to administer justice just like we as people administer justice here on earth. Is it justice not to punish those who are guilty of denying the Savior?

>>The bible doesn't say that such people are punished in that way, it says that the dead know nothing. It does >>speak of eternal punishment for the truly wicked, but the original wording is not the kind of eternal that goes >>on indefinitely, it is a final kind of punishment.

I'm sorry Rebekah I have to disagree with you, there are many many scriptures dealing with eternal and it's a forever thing.

>>I think that the concept of hell has been something used by organized religion to get us all to be afraid of >>God, and to get us to dance to the church's tune or we'll go to hell. Just my two cents worth. ;)

No, hell is not a concept to get people to conform to Church. The teaching of hell is to bring you to place of understanding how ugly and bad our sins really are. Jesus had to a huge price to keep us from going to the place of gnashing teeth. Even the sin we will sin today, He has already paid for with His blood! Seek Him today, turn from your sins, ask for His forgiveness, have faith in Him, don't rely on good works and you will spend a glorious eternal time with Him.

Thank you for reading, Todd O<>

-- Todd Osborn (tosborn@cccglobal.com), June 23, 2000

Answers

Todd, God bless you! I couldn't have said it better myself. Praise the Lord for Chistians out there ready to stand and defend their faith.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 23, 2000.


I have a good friend that one time asked me if I believed all "that religion nonsense". I told him, "You know what the Bible says will happened to people who have been saved. And you know what the Bible says will happen to people who aren't saved. Well, it may be nonsense, but what if you're wrong? Is it worth taking that chance?" God bless.

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), June 23, 2000.

I always find it interesting when people quote the Bible almost as if God wrote it. They seem to overlook the fact that it was written by human beings. It was their interpretation of what they believed and it was based on their lives at that time. Most people don't know that there is quite a bit of information that is in the Dead Sea Scrolls that is not in the Bible because the religious leaders at that time didn't agree with the teachings so they were not made part of the Bible. (reincarnation is one of these teachings.)

I find the Bible interesting reading and I think about what is in there and reflect on it and try to decide if it is right for me and what I believe but I don't let it dictate what I have to believe about my God. I feel I have just as much ability to be inspired by God as they did and I let God inspire me directly rather than have my actions and the way I live my life dictated by words written by men centuries ago.

I believe that Jesus was a man who God sent to show us how we should live our lives. He was an example of how we should be. The Bible even says let there be no other Gods before me yet people worship Jesus as if he is God. I was raised a Christian and while I believe in the existence of Jesus, I also believe that there are many ways we can all find God and the most important one is to live our lives by loving our fellow man. So many Christians tout the only way to get to heaven is to be a believer in Jesus and then they turn around and mistreat their family, friends and neighbors. Then they try to show how smart they are by quoting scripture. If they aren't living the scripture, who cares what they have memorized? I would rather have them show me how they have followed the scripture in their life rather than how they can quote it. If I had to bet which one is going to get to Heaven, the one that worships Jesus and mistreats their fellow man or the one that doesn't worship Jesus but always treats their fellow man in a loving way, I would put my money on the one that loves their fellow man. That is the message that is conveyed throughout the Bible but we just don't seem to get it. The Ten Commandments is all we really need to know. If we can only learn to live our lives by following them, I'll bet we'll get to Heaven. It is really a very simple message. The doing is the difficult part. I'm not trying to change anyone's viewpoint, I'm just stating mine.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 23, 2000.


Todd, thank you for your response. I would not deny that there is a terrible final, punishment for the wicked, what I have a problem with is that people tend to interpret eternal as meaning unending. The passagein Revelation 20:14 mentions the second death. What kind of death lasts forever and you never die? That's not death, it's eternal suffering and torture, and the Bible calls the lake of fire the second death. The other thing that has been incorporated into chirch doctrine, which was a pagan greek concept, is that of the immortal soul. The scriptures don't say that our souls are immortal. That is what satan lied about in the garden, saying that if Adam and Eve ate the apple, they would never die. If our souls never die, but are simply transferred to other dimensions and frames of reality such as heaven, hell, purgatory, nirvana, hades, etc, it would mean that the Almighty HAD lied when he warned them that they'd die if they ate the forbidden fruit. The Hebrew words for hell are gehenna and sheol. Sheol means the grave. We all go to the grave, righteous or not. Gehenna was a valley that had at one time been used for pagan worship and became a burning garbage heap where the fire burned most of the time and things were disposed of there. The fire burned forever, but of course the garbage and such did not burn forever as it was consumed. The other church doctrine concerning the immortal soul is that right after death, the 'good people' or the born again people (depends on which church you go to), are immediatly transported to heaven at death. What need then for the resurrection of the dead when Messiah returns? After all, according to what I was taught, at death, people go either to heaven or hell, so everybody has already been resurrected and assigned to their final resting place, why rehash it again? And, although the scriptures do mention the kingdom of heaven, it nowhere says that we go to heaven when we die. It does say that"in my Father's house are many mansions" ,this could be alluding to heaven,or it could be another place."I go to prepare a place for you". Obviously, there is some kind of a very pleasant, rewarding place for the redeemed, but I haven't seen where it says that heaven is that place, or that we'll visit with angels, or that we'll have a chance to ask God all the things we'd like to know, etc. Maybe we do go to heaven, maybe we don't. The scriptures do not specifically say that we do. It does speak of a new heavens and a new earth. Please don't get me wrong- I do believe that we must be born again and baptized, the scriptures are very clear on that! But what about the people who've never heard the gospel? Our preacher says that everybody has heard the gospel,but how can he say and know that? I have known planty of Americans who don't have the first clue of what the bible says, or about being born again, what about those in other countries and other times? Also, if everybody gets a chance to hear, which is what our preacher claims, then why bother going around repeating ourselves every Sunday? Is it just to keep coaxing along those who are stubborn or unpersuaded, or are we hoping to reach those who haven't heard? As for works, it is true that "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" as long as we have not repented. But it also says that "Faith without works is dead". The idea that once we are born again, we can do as we please and still receive an eternal reward, is also not found in scripture. Well, sorry to drone on like this, I don't intend to be argumentative, the folks at bible study get tired of me, too, because I never like to accept what the pastor says unless he can really prove it from the bible! I guiess what gets to me is that nearly every church has a different take on what you have to do to be saved, and it usually includes being a member of THAT church. They all seem to claim that they are the 'true church'.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), June 23, 2000.

The point is that all have fallen short of the glory of God and simply put, that is why we need Jesus. Even if we try, we can't keep the 10 commandments. Read Matthew 5 and see if you have. Jesus took our punishment on Himself and redeemed us. I put my trust in Him, I know who holds the future! I am not a betting woman!

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), June 23, 2000.


>>I believe that Jesus was a man who God sent to show us how we >>should live our lives. He was an example of how we should be. The >>Bible even says let there be no other Gods before me yet people >>worship Jesus as if he is God. I was raised a Christian and while >>I believe in the existence of Jesus, I also believe that there are >>many ways we can all find God and the most important one is to live >>our lives by loving our fellow man. >>Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com)

Colleen, Thank you for your response Colleen. I would like to point out a couple of things.

First, you say that you believe that Jesus was a man that God sent to show us how to live our lives. Second, you say that you believe there are many ways to find God.

Why would God send us a man to teach us how to live and yet said things like "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me"?

Jesus' comment is very exclusive, there is only one door to God and it's through His Son Jesus Christ. So were left with a huge problem here, either Jesus is telling the absolute truth or He was a crazy person. Which do you think it is?

Thanks for your response. Todd O<>
-- Todd Osborn (tosborn@cccglobal.com), June 23, 2000.


Rebekah,

Thank you for reading my post and responding in such a friendly way. I will try to answer your comments.

>>I would not deny that there is a terrible final, punishment for the >>wicked, what I have a problem with is that people tend to interpret >>eternal as meaning unending. The passagein Revelation 20:14 >>mentions the second death. What kind of death lasts forever and you >>never die? That's not death, it's eternal suffering and torture, >>and the Bible calls the lake of fire the second death.

If we have a hard time understanding a concept, sometimes it's worth while to take the opposite concept. The opposite of eternal death is eternal life. God tells us a lot about eternal life. One of the main points about having eternal life, is it is a life that is forever in the presence of God. Now take the opposite, eternal death, what can we say is one of the main points about having eternal death? It is eternal separation from God. If your totally separated from God then your separated from everything that is good. Imagine being somewhere separated from everything that is good.

>>The other thing that has been incorporated into church doctrine, >>which was a pagan greek concept, is that of the immortal soul. The >>scriptures don't say that our souls are immortal. That is what >>satan lied about in the garden, saying that if Adam and Eve ate the >>apple, they would never die. If our souls never die, but are simply >>transferred to other dimensions and frames of reality such as >>heaven, hell, purgatory, nirvana, hades, etc, it would mean that >>the Almighty HAD lied when he warned them that they'd die if they >>ate the forbidden fruit.

No, it's not that God lied it's just that there are two kinds of deaths. The reason Jesus said that no one will see the kingdom of heaven unless their born again is because your spirit is dead (separated from God who is Spirit), when your born again your spirit is re-born, kind of like re-lighting a candle that was out (dead). You see Satan did lie because Adam and Eve did die spritually (Separated from God - no longer walked with God side by side) when they sinned and they died physically years later.

>>The Hebrew words for hell are gehenna and sheol. Sheol means the >>grave. We all go to the grave, righteous or not. Gehenna was a >>valley that had at one time been used for pagan worship and became >>a burning garbage heap where the fire burned most of the time and >>things were disposed of there. The fire burned forever, but of >>course the garbage and such did not burn forever as it was >>consumed.

Yes you are very knowledgeable in this subject. What we must understand here is teaching. Just as Jesus walks by a field and teaches how the Bible is seed that is sown in the human ground of the heart, so also gehenna is a teachable illustration that people could relate to in the teaching of hell. I believe that the things of heaven and hell are so different and indescribable compared to our world, that this is the only kind of way to teach on these kinds of things is illustrate it with natural things people can understand.

I'm sorry Rebekah I need to go now because I am work. I appretiate your questions and I hope we can keep discussing the wonderful things of God. Have a wonderful weekend!

Todd O <>
-- Todd Osborn (tosborn@cccglobal.com), June 23, 2000.


Todd: You're an articulate spokesman for your point of view, even though I don't agree with it. Colleen, Rebeka, I'm with you.

Todd, you ask how can jesus say "I am the way..." and it not be true. I posted the following on another board. This would be my attempt to answer that question.

I was reading The Principal Upanishads today translated by Radhakrishnan and came upon this in the Brhad-dranyaka Upanishad. "The narrow ancient path which streches far away, has been touched (found) by me, has been realised by me. By it the wise , the knowers of Brahman (God) go up to the heavenly world after the fall of this body, being freed (even while living)."

Narrow is defined as "difficult to comprehend"

In the commentary: "The teachers are the pathfinders. The Buddha speaks of the ancient way, the wayfarer bound for home 'from which there is no coming back again'. Rumi attributes to Jesus, the logos, "For the true believers I become a bridge across the river." Mathnawi says "The bodhisatva makes of himself a bridge, by which we cross. Having first crossed over himself, he serves as a bridge for others." I thought this would be of interest to you Dwain in that it supports the idea that Jesus spent time in India and the Himalayas.

Could it be Todd, that jesus was so completely immersed in God and the spirit that there was no differentiation? Mightn't the above take on these things be just as valid and make for a more inclusive God?

Little Bit: You say something like its about time someone stands up and defends the faith. Was it being attacked? Or do you think it was merely because some doesn't wholly agree with your point of view? You post all this stuff about liberty, the constitution and things of that sort yet would you have us all lockstepping to the tune that you hear?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 23, 2000.


obviously, all homesteaders are not religious, and it would be hard to say who is religious anyway.... i do not happen to be a church going man, but i do live my life in a "golden rule" sort of way. i tread lightly on the earth and treat my fellow humans with the respect and dignity they deserve. i am in awe of the beauty of the world around me, i don't abuse my body, and i strive to make the world a better place...i was raised a methodist, and an episcopalian, and have bounced around a few different faiths. they are all fine, they really are about the same, and i've taken the best parts of them and left the parts that don't make sense. so, no, i guess that i'm not religious, but i do live a far more "christian" life than many of the "christians" i know...

just another perspective, i guess...john

-- john houser (farmrjon@juno.com), June 23, 2000.


>In the commentary: "The teachers are the pathfinders. The Buddha >speaks of the ancient way, the wayfarer bound for home 'from which >there is no coming back again'. Rumi attributes to Jesus, the logos, >"For the true believers I become a bridge across the river." Mathnawi >says "The bodhisatva makes of himself a bridge, by which we cross. >Having first crossed over himself, he serves as a bridge for others."

John, Thanks for your response.

Do I understand you correctly, are you saying that you believe Jesus is just another pathfinder among many pathfinders to which we cross over to heaven? In other words the entrance is wide because there are many bridges to heaven. Is that your main idea your communicating?

Todd O <>
-- Todd Osborn (tosborn@cccglobal.com), June 23, 2000.



Todd: No that is not what I am communicating. I am suggesting, no, stating, that Jesus was an enlightened being, as were others before him and likely since him. I believe Jesus spent time in india and learned as a student of hinduism and buddhism during his missing years. There is documentary evidence that suggests this quite strongly, but since its not in the bible, I suspect it will be discounted.

There is an abundance of evidence throughout many of the worlds religions that they too partake of the universal holy spirit and that spirit requires the same thing from all of us to grow spiritually. That is that we nurture a kind and loving heart, that we cultivate the humble spirit of a student, that we open communications between ourselves and the kingdom and king within. In that sense the path is narrow.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 23, 2000.


>I am suggesting, no, stating, that Jesus was an enlightened being, as were others before him and likely since >him. I believe Jesus spent time in india and learned as a student of hinduism and buddhism during his missing >years.

John, Thanks for clarifying your beliefs for me.

You are stating that Jesus was an enlightened being. You and others must believe Jesus was enlightened because of His teaching & the things He said etc. John, there is a big logic problem with believing Jesus was an enlightened being and yet not believe what He teaches. It is the same logic problem of many who call Jesus a good moral teacher and yet do not believe what He teaches. How can one be an enlighened being or a good moral teacher if what He says is not true. Do you believe Him or not?

Jesus said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Matthew 28:18

"I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Matthew 19:28

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Mark 14:61-62

Have a great weekend John,

Todd O.

-- Todd Osborn (tosborn@cccglobal.com), June 23, 2000.


Goodness, I thought this was a homesteading bulletin board and not a theology one. Pardon. Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), June 23, 2000.

Actually John what I said was Praise the Lord for people like Todd. There are many and they have never not been here since the time of Christ's death. I believe in Liberty John, so does God. He gave you a choice. I would not have you lockstepping to my tune. I will however give you the chance to make an informed decision. Whether or not you choose to believe is between you and God. Ultimately it will be your call. Ultimately it will be Him you stand before. I am just a sinner saved by grace. There is no importance to me whatsoever. I haven't told anyone on this forum what to do, I have however expressed my own beliefs. Could it possibly be that you are defensive? " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men." John 1:1-4 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? jesus said unto them, Verily verily I say unto you, before Abraham was I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out into the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59 And Moses said unto God, behold when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say unto me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:13-14 It is utterly clear here that Jesus claimed to be God here. Had he not claimed to be God the Jews would not have tried to stone him. You may not in Our society understand that that is what he meant at first glance, but every Jew at that time knew what Christ meant. Jesus Claimed to be God. Either he was Lying, and as such the whole New Testament ought to be thrown in the trash, or he was telling the truth and we must examine what that means. If indeed, as some on this thread have suggested, the Bible is just a collection of stories penned by men. If indeed, the writers were not inspired by God himself, then you may as well read Nostradamus. I believe that each and every writer of the Bible was under the direction, and direct compulsion of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God. I believe That not only does God exist, but that he planned each and every facet of humanity. I believe He Loves each and every one of us. I believe he literally created the world in six days. If you believe otherwise, then the whole thing is worthless. Why apply the words of two thousand years ago if indeed they are not God's word. What is the point? If on the other hand you believe the Bible to be true. If you believe there is a God that is concerned about you and knows the numbers of the hair on your head, then what is said in His word must be taken very seriously indeed.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 23, 2000.


Sometimes it's helpful to remember that Jesus was talking to his followers and not to 21st (almost!) century readers. So when he says things like "I am the way, the truth, etc..." it *could* be that he meant the *way* for *his disciples*, etc. and it might be unintentional that it was reported as if to apply it to all of us (ok by me, tho.)

The Bible is really cool, but remember there's two creation stories in Genesis alone, and 2 versions of the flood, etc...strong indications of at least a couple of different strains of oral tradition. There are at least 4 strains operating in Genesis alone. Also the New Testament (Greek Testament) has some of the Gospels ending the Resurrection story differently from each other (rather!), and then there's the Book of John! Matthew was "spun" for capturing the attention and participation of Jewish worshippers, and Luke written for a Greek audience. That seems pretty normal, as I don't think human nature has changed that much in a couple thousand years! It's marketing! None of these guys lived at the same time as Jesus either. And there seems to be references pointing to a "Q" Gospel, from which some of the Gospels were copied. Also remember Constantine "published" the Bible as we know it today (mostly). It was an early "release", like 3.1 or so! Whatever wasn't ready" (Thomas, etc) wasn't published, so not included in the Canon..etc. Sometimes we forget the other books...

Just $.02 more cents, and yup, this isn't a religion forum, and yup, I should go do my homework and get off of here! Remember that I said one can take the Bible seriously, and not necessarily literally. Very important Words....Peace!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 23, 2000.



Why would God send us a man to teach us how to live and yet said things like "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me"?

Jesus' comment is very exclusive, there is only one door to God and it's through His Son Jesus Christ. So were left with a huge problem here, either Jesus is telling the absolute truth or He was a crazy person. Which do you think it is?

Todd,

Unless you have been living for almost 2,000 years, you don't know what Jesus said. All that you know is what the Bible says he said. That is my point. Everything in the Bible is someone's interpretation of what Jesus said. If Jesus were alive today, and gave a talk to a multitude of people and everyone wrote down what they heard, would they all be exactly alike? Would they all say the same thing? No, because each person would hear certain things and then would put their own interpretation on them. That is exactly what the people did who wrote the Bible as well. What I am saying is that you can't take the Bible verbatim because you don't know that they were exact quotes. In fact, I doubt that they had anything to take notes on when he was speaking so they had to be paraphrasing later when they were able to talk to scribes. Do I believe the Bible is inspired? Yes, just as people today can write inspired things which can be very helpful in figuring out how we should live our lives. Are the words in the Bible, the only possible truth. No.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 23, 2000.


Ok, here is a project for you why don't you all sit down and without looking back in your countryside issues for the last three years, write down everything JD Belanger ever said. If you come as close together as Matthew mark luke and John I'll eat my hat. What is amazing is not how far they were apart, it is how close they were together.

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 23, 2000.


Yes, Matthew, Mark and Luke copied the Q Gospel, which hasn't been found yet, but which scholars of all strains of Christianity pretty much agree on. So, yeah, they would be similar...just like if you wrote up a synopsis of what Jd wrote, and Colleen, John, and I paraphrased your writing. (well maybe someone others,instead!) I agree! And I still think it's profound!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 23, 2000.

I want to say my bit but all my posts are short. I don't think it is complicated. God loved the world so much that He sent Jesus. You have free will to accept Him or not. Until you receive Him and have the Holy Spirit to guide you, you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not. Isn't it great, though, to live in a country where each of us has the freedom to discuss our views!! Not everyone has that freedom. Eagle

-- eagle (eagle@alpha1.net), June 23, 2000.

Yer right Kim: This is suppossed to be about homesteading. How are your chickens and goats Todd? Doing well I hope.

Todd: If you want to continue this discussion we can take it off line. E-mail me.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 23, 2000.


I have to say that I think our spiritual/religious beliefs is part of why we are homesteaders. Just like our political beliefs have formed our makeup and philosophy as homesteaders. Although they may be different from each other just as some of us like some kinds of animals and some of us don't. I see nothing wrong with either topic being part of this forum. It is clearly labeled on the subject what this is about and if someone doesn't want to talk about religion, they can just skip this thread. I don't see any harm in it.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 23, 2000.

God bless you,Eagle! I've just finished printing all 11 pages of this discussion,for I hope to be able to contribute.However,it is late and my little guy (19 mos.) is quite sick;therefore,I can't be on the computer all night! ~Tracy

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), June 24, 2000.

Colleen, I'm glad you said that. I'd like to respond to Little Bit. You say "If you come as close together as Matthew mark luke and John I'll eat my hat. What is amazing is not how far they were apart, it is how close they were together."

The same is true of the mystics thruout time, some thousands of years before Christ. That FACT alone should cause you to suspect there may be more to it than what you believe. If you really want to learn something read Parallel Sayings. Its a book about the sayings of the Buddha compared to Jesus. It seems Jesus used some of Buddhas lines. Its important to remember Buddha predated Jesus by 500-600 yrs.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 24, 2000.


Hellow! I have never been on a forum before, but i have had a few Sunday School classes. In the first answer, YES I WILL STAND FOR GOD AND WHAT IS TRUE AND I AM NOT ASHAMED!!! now, i think (colleen, is it?) that she, colleen, was just a little confused there. now when she was talking about getting into heaven by your good deeds, it is just like saying that you can buy a computer at office depot with 3000 hamburgers. Don't get me wrong, because when you get to heaven, you will be blessed according to your good deeds, but the only thing that really matters is that you believe in Jesus the almighty, and accept him as your savior, because GOD gave his ONLY son that he had to die for colleen and john and rebbeca and little bit farm and todd and sheepish's sins, so that they may spend and eternity with the almighty God! The bible is a cool book, colleen, but it is the only book that was ever written without one mistake at all, not even the slightest. You say, colleen, that there were humans writing the bible, and they had nowhere to take notes, and they had to remeber them and write them down later? Guess what! God gave them every word straight and dead-on in their hearts so that you and I could base our lives on a faultless and perfect book! And you say that Jesus was just another one of many ways into heaven? Well, Jesus is God's only son, and i dont believe that Jesus was to come down on the earth to die on a cross for nothing? Yes! He died for your sins and my sins and everyone elses sins! Not one time was Jesus in the Garden of Gathsemine asking : "are these people really worth it?" . He loved you so much, he was sweating drops of blood for you, BEFORE he paid for your sins on the cross! I may be only 13 years old, but i still love each and every one of you, and i will be praying for each and every one of you..... may God be with you

-- Joshie Boy (joshie_boyis21@hotmail.com), June 24, 2000.

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor.2:14. I beleive, and I gather some others posting on this thread beleive likewise, that mankind comes in to this world spiritually alienated from Almighty God. We are born as "natural men " and have the nature of our father Adam.Untill we are spritually regenerated by the Holy Spirit, the above scripture explains the dilema very well. John ,you wondered why the comment about standing up for the faith and asked was it being attacked... well I beleive the attack is couched in the many posts here that try to marginalize my savior to the express intent that he would be considered just another teacher , ok for his time , but those before and after had just as much wisdom or knowledge etc.... Those before and after Him are in the grave, those before and after Him have not transformed the lives of any where near as many people as has Jesus Christ, and those who came before and after did not create the very universe we exist in as did Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. One post here states that Todd cannot possibly know or beleive that what was written 2000 years ago is what was really said, but then,in the same breath THEY are POSITIVE that it was not. Those of you who want to discount the accuracy of the scriptures based on other books written by "scholars" 2000 years after any of the events they are critiquing occured...it seems that in mans desire to escape the exclusive claims of Jesus on their condition and life, that they will spend more time reading what other unregenerated men have written against the scriptures, rather than examining the scriptures themselves to see if what they say impacts them or not.I personaly will take the eyewitness accounts of a bunch of "ignorant fisherman " than the critical remarks of self proclaimed "scholars" ,because my life has been totally transformed by one thing only,...my relationship with the living Lord Jesus Christ. so... Am I a religous homesteader? No! Religion is mans attempt to get to or please God. Christianity is placing my trust in Jesus Christ, and trusting his finished work on the cross as the only thing that makes me acceptable to Almighty God. We can do nothing to please God except to believe in the one and only way He has provided for us to approach Him, Jesus Christ! If you made it this far thank you for reading, and I appreciate the civility once again that this forum demonstrates. Mike, Romans 10:9

-- mike (mstydale@aeroinc.net), June 24, 2000.

Matthew and John were there and did personally know Jesus! Mark knew Peter and Luke was a close associate of Paul and wrote to tell of other's eyewitness accounts of their experiences knowing Jesus. I do not condemn nor dislike any of you for your beliefs or comments! I pray that God will reveal Himself to you so that you can understand His word that He has given to believers.

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), June 24, 2000.

Mike, Once again, a Christian who likes to say alot to defend their side is not good at listening to the other person. Read my post again. I never said that I was POSITIVE that the Bible was not true. All that I said was that since Todd did not personally hear Jesus speak he can not say for certain that Jesus said the words attributed to him in the Bible. He is instead basing his belief on what another man/men has written and saying it as absolute truth that those were the words that Jesus spoke. I'm just making the point that none of us can no this for certain. We all are taking it on faith but many Christians say it as if they know for certain and they don't. They are just taking it on faith. I have no problem with them believing what they want out of the Bible, just don't try to say that it is all TRUE because they don't know. None of us do. Just say they BELIEVE it is true.

Just like I believe there is a God. But I don't KNOW that for certain. I take it on faith that he exists. But I don't go around telling everyone there is definitely a God. That's up to them to figure out what is true for them. It is not up to me to tell them their truth. I think if a lot of Christians that go around spouting scripture spent as much time and energy into trying to live their life like they should, the world would be a lot better off. For all of the Christians we have in this country, we should be living in a very peaceful country by now but I'm afraid that too many people are going around trying to tell everyone else how they should live their life instead of getting their own house in order. I get real tired everyday at work watching the people who are saying "Praise the Lord" or whatever to show how religious they are and then they turn around and gossip about someone or stab them in the back or something that is very unChristianlike. I'm not saying that I am perfect either. I work every day to live the life that Jesus led in how I treat my fellow man but I don't spend time trying to tell everyone else what they should believe or what they should do. My job is to keep myself on the right path. And when and if I ever do that, then maybe I can start telling other people what to do. It's kind of like the saying "let whoever is without sin cast the first stone" in reverse. When you get to living your life the way you should, then you can start telling others how to live theirs. Until that time, my energy is going to go into trying to live the right kind of life I should and I'm not going to tell you how to live yours.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 24, 2000.


Hi Coleen. Thanks for respoding to my post. I was wondering if you have ever read the scriptures? Please dont take that harshly, because I mean it as a serious question. You say you work daily at trying to treat people like Jesus did, and that Christians should not be telling people how to live, but that is mostly what his accurately recorded ministry in the gospels contained.No , we are not Jesus and do not have the sinless life He did, but why do my own shortcomings disqualify me from being able to point out unrigteousness? I mean that in general, not toward you personally, as I obviously dont know you.Yes, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God, and trusting in Jesus Christ and His vicariuos work for us is the only remedy. I absolutely beleive that with out any doubt, and part of beleiving that compells me to speak that message of reconciliation between God and man but you are in no way obligated by me or any other man to believe anything about anything at all.I find it interesting that for all the talk about diversity and accepting other views and religions as equally valid or "true" for others, not many people that are unbelievers have the "tolerance" for the exclusive claims of Jesus. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew7:14, in the midst of a long passage in which Jesus is telling the multitudes how they should live their lives. ( I know.. there I go spouting scripture again! ) Mike-Romans 10:9

-- Mike (mstydale@aeroinc.net), June 24, 2000.

Irenaeus- Bishop of Lyons A.D.180 certainly didn't know about all the Apostles getting together and copying things between them. Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who hung around with John the Apostle. Irenaeus wrote: "For as there are four quarters of the world in which we live, and four universal winds, and as the church is dispersed all over the earth, and the gospel is the pillar and base of the churchand the breath of life, so it is natural that it should have four pillars, breathing immortality from every quarter and kindling the life of men anew. Whence it is manifest that the Word, the archetect of all things, who sits upon the cheribim and holds all things together, having been manifest to men, has given us the gospel in fourfold form, but held together by one spirit. Matthew published his Gospel, among the Hebrews in their own tongue, when Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome and founding the church there. After their departure(death), Mark the disciple and and interpreter of Peter, himself handed down to us the substance of Peter's preaching. Luke, the follower of Paul, set down in a book the gospel preached by his teacher. Then John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leaned on his breast himself produced his gospel, while he was living in Ephesus in Asia" So there you have it four gospels, four different times and most importantly four different places. There is far more evidence to prove the Bible's existence, and validity than there is for any other great work of, antiquity. For you scientific people it might help you to read Evidence That Demands A Verdict, by Josh McDowell. Josh started studying the Bible to disprove it, and ended up being convinced it was the one and only Word of God. There is far more evidence to prove the Bible than there is to prove the theory of evolution or many other scientific theories. God preserves His Word. As far as the dead sea scrolls go, It should be brought to light that so accurate were the manuscripts of Isaiah that there was only one word that was questionably different in the entire scroll. That word had no doctrinal effect whatsoever.

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 24, 2000.


In response to Colleen (6/23/2000): Of course God did not write the Bible, but he inspired men to do so. If we had no written record to refer to, it would be one person's word against another's. Here are reasons we know the Bible is God's Word: 1. It is historically accurate. 2. It is in harmony with true science (It said the earth was round long before Columbus: Isaiah 40:22.) 3. It foretells the future, something no human can do. Over 300 Bible prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus. The conditions in the present world were forefold: Matthew 24, 2 Timothy 3:1-7. Also, the Bible tells of born-again Christians going to heaven, but it also promises others the opportunity of living forever in a paradise earth. See Psalm 37:11 & 29, Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalm 104:5, Isaiah 11:6-9, and Revelation 21:3-5. This will fulfill the request we make in the Lord's prayer that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. The Bible has stood the test of time. It is the oldest and the most widely-distributed book on earth. Unfortunately it isn't read much. A preacher once said that if all the Bibles on earth were opened at once, such a dust cloud would arise that it would blot out the sun. The more people read it, the more it is "accepted...not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God." -1 Thessalonians 2:13, New World Translation.

-- Ray Battels (hray@kansas.net), June 24, 2000.

Looks like people believe what they want to believe. For those folks who honestly feel that non-believers will perish in hell, their evangelism takes on an urgency which others find difficult to comprehend. My in-laws are pretty much like that...they get really preachy, but they sincerely feel that they are rescuing people from eternal damnation. Since they do this honestly out of love, I have respect for them. I have, however, worked out a peace with them where we don't go on and on about it!

Sometimes it's real important for people to be "correct" about something, so they continue to discuss things as though they were going to influence others. I can deal with that for a while, but then just turn it off, as it doesn't change anything for the most part.

Sometimes people start out with a premise, and hold to it, despite the fact that there might be information, or even feelings to the contrary. There was a lot of that with folks fears about y2k...even though it looked like things were improving and wouldn't be disastrous, they still held on to that fear in light of new facts. Those people I understand as I can be like that too.

I think as humans, we tend to visualize God in terms of how we felt as a child of humans! After all, what else could we compare it to? For that reason, some of us see God as the All Powerful Father, who is going to get out his belt and whup us if we misbehave. Some of us see a gentle Creator God, more like Mom on a good day. Or something in between.

We all have our perspectives, and we all believe what is "right". I think we all have valid approaches if it works for us, doesn't hurt others, etc. I am not a big fan of the God is Fear school. I believe in Love, and do my best to practice it. I also think it's kind of puny for us humans to even imagine that we have to defend God or doctrine...but then we ARE only human.

I am done posting here...like I said elsewhere, everyone is pretty entrenched and nothing's gonna change. I do like how we respect each other and for that I say, bless you all!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 24, 2000.


I don't believe anyone can accept Jesus, be born again, saved etc. unless he/sheis drawn by the Holy Spirit. Because of this I won't argue "religion" with anyone. It is pretty much a waste of time. If anyone would like to be born again, receive Jesus as personal savior, or enter a discussion which might, later on, cause that person to be saved I would be glad for that person to send me an EMail. I can't save anyone but I can show you the scriptures and help you to know how to ask Jesus to come into your heart. Please feel free to contact me at anytime. Eagle

-- eagle (eagle@alpha1.net), June 25, 2000.

Tracy, thanks, hope see post(s) from you. Eagle

-- eagle (eagle@alpha1.net), June 25, 2000.

A question-does anyone here, who has even smallest amount of belief, or knowledge of WHO (his character) God is, possibly think for a moment that He is without the means to communicate to His people? Is He a God of confusion? Did He create the universe in disorder? There is a God above all others, and it is His will that His creation know Him. He is able to provide that knowledge to His creation. We may discard it, claim it to be untrue or unsearchable, question the "authors" account of it, and deem it "just another" writing. But how do we account for its accuracy? The events foretold and fullfilled exactly as written? Yes, you may choose YOUR path to god, but it is not the God of the bible, the Most High. If you care to know Him, you must accept what He has given us, the bible, to know Him. Our God is a God of order, I have perfect confidence in His ability to provide His creation with the means by which to know Him, His Word. Otherwise, chaos and confusion reigns and man does what is right in his own eyes, this is the message of another god. May God Bless you with wisdom as you search for truth. Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), June 25, 2000.

Sheepish, very well said. I too believe in a loving God not a fearful one. Because of that, I believe that there are many ways for us as humans to know our God and be able to enter heaven. I don't say those who believe in Jesus are wrong just like I don't believe Jews or Buddists or anyone else who believes in one God is wrong. To me, all that matters is that we find God, believe in Him and live our lives as if we do believe in Him and stop trying to convince everyone else that they are wrong and there is only one way. To me, that is just their ego trying to make sure the choice they made is the "right" one. That's it for me, too, on this topic for now.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 25, 2000.

Hey, i will make a deal with each and everyone of you that have respond to this. ok, i am willing to pray and worship any "god" that anyone can find, IF, that "god" is so loving for you that he gave his ONLY son that he ever had, and if that "god" is so loving that he gives salvation freely, and he wants you to take it and share that good news with others, and if he died for each and everyone's sins, and he loved you so much, you specifically were on his (or her) mind at his death, and if that "god" lived a sinless life and he had no reason to die, but only for you.... i say, what a challenge! Joshie-Boy

-- Joshie-Boy (joshie_boyis21@hotmail.com), June 25, 2000.

I sometimes wish I were as nice and considerate as Todd is. But its just not my personality and maybe it takes all types. Of the disciples I would have been and ear-cutting Peter, a show-me Thomas, and would definately have fallen asleep at Gethsemane. This is a prior apology for any abruptness of offense.

First, how great it is - a thread like this! I get more out of reading these posts than several Sunday morning services.

Here's my comment. Its on the Bible itself.

I believe that the Bible is a major revelation from God. Its also a principal source (for me) of learning about God. I use it, I rely on it, I study it with, I hope, discerment. However, I do not see where it must be considered THE perfect or complete word of God. I don't find the unmistakeable statement in the Bible where it claims perfection for itself. I find it significant that while Jesus did fortell the arrival of the Holy Spirit, the end times, and the kingdom of heaven, he made no mention of the coming of a "bible". A lot of folks equate the Bible with the Word. Yet in the Bible it is written "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God". In my view, the Word of God prexisted the compilation of writings we refer to as the Bible. Certainly the Gospel predated the Bible. The early church had God revealed to them sufficiently without having a written Bible. And for hundreds of years, before and after Nice, the great illiterate masses knew God without the presence of a Bible. Paul (I think), in one of his letters that have been incorporated into the Bible, said that even peoples who had never been "introduced" to God should have recognized him from observing creation.

Church folks often dig in their heels on this. How can we hope that unbelievers will open-mindedly consider what is said in the Bible if we won't consider challenges and alternative interpretations to it? Are we afraid or just prefer the comfort and relaxed thinking of absolutism? People won't like this but sometimes I see that people seem to prefer to worship the Bible more than they would worship God. I accept that the Bible includes a big chunk of God's revelation but it does NOT encompass God anymore than creation does.

There are obvious inconsistencies in it. How did Judas die? People do relate events differently. But more important than this is that we look through the lenses of understanding languages and their meanings from over two thousand years ago. Anyone who speaks another language knows how difficult it can be to convey meaning to a reader who has no experience in the culture that spoke the language. Sometimes when we study the culture of Biblical times we can get profound insights that completely change our understanding of a passage. Yet we strain at gnats while swallowing the big ignorance of our own incapacity to perceive what was meant!

So, in agreement with many others, I am left with studying the Bible while I "now we see in a mirror dimly" and while "now I know in part". Besides, I am led to faith by the Holy Spirit and my understanding, whether from the Bible or otherwise, will only be that which is revealed to me throught the Holy Spirit.

-- charles (clb@watervalley.net), June 26, 2000.


My "innocent" little question sparked all this!! You are all so well read when it comes to the bible. I wish I had half your knowledge, then maybe I'd have half the answers.... Helen

-- Helen (bluechicken@wildbearnet.net), June 26, 2000.

Hi! I guess homesteaders are religious afterall! I have alot of the same personal convictions as Rebekah (by the way I like the spelling of your name better than Rebecca.) The one thing I would like to know is, is there any Sabbath keepers and Holy Day keeper out there? I believe that the 1st step to understanding the plan of God is the keeping of the Commandments (including the 7th day Sabbath) and the Holy Days of the old Testament (which by the way Christ kept.) Anyone out there? Also to not offend anybody, I also believe that no one has all the answers...We learn as we go and we find out how much we don't know the older we get!

-- deborah carmichael (brownswiss99@yahoo.com), June 27, 2000.

Well, here is what I believe...let me start by saying that I am not trying to offend, and I don't expect anyone to believe the way that I do. I believe that it is my job as a Christian to tell others what I believe. I don't want any of you to think that I am pressuring you to believe the same things that I believe. I won't deny the fact that I think I am right (why would I believe if I thought it was false), and that my way is the right way, you do not have to agree with me. I'm not asking you to believe me, just to listen!

1) The Bible is the true and inspired Word of God. I believe that God put exactly what He wanted written into the hearts of the authors. I also believe that if He could do that when the Bible was written, He could do it again when the Bible was translated into what we now have as The Bible! (Why not?) 2)While loving other people is a VERY important part of Christianity, it is NOT the main thing. "love the Lord your God with all your strength, and all your soul, and all your might". I also agree that too many of us neglect to do enough of either of these things (myself included). 3) There are just some things that we will not know until we meet God face to face. 4) I don't think that the answers that we are looking for are in books written by "scholars" about the Bible. I believe that there are a lot more things to be discovered in the Bible if we would all read it with open hearts.

Something that I would like to point out is that some of you are looking for fact, but Christianity is based on faith, not fact or proof of any kind! Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"; Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him". There are too many refrences to faith in the Bible to list them all here. If you don't believe that God is who He says He is and that He does what He says He does or will do, then you cannot be saved! It is that simple. How do we know what God is saying?...It's in the Bible!!

I know that there are lots of ways to interpret what the Bible says, but I believe that God will show us what He wants us to believe! I think that the key to getting the answers that we want and need is not only to read the Bible, but to have a close personal relationship with God. If you study the Bible and pray to God, He will reveal what He wants you to know.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He and God are the same, therefore not just a profound man, teacher, thinker or whatever. If Jesus was a mere man, then how could He have been sinless? The Bible does say that He was without sin. If Jesus, a mere man, could be completely sinless, then why can't we? It doesn't make any sense.

John L, could it be that whoever came up with the idea of buddah (I totally believe that buddah is non-existant, and just something that someone came up with because they didn't want to believe in God, but they didn't feel right believing in nothing) used some of Jesus' sayings and not the other way around?

One last thing and then I will stop...

Why is it that we as humans feel that we need a scientific reason for everything?? Why can't we just accept that some things "ARE" and that is that? I rather like not having to have an explanaition for every single detail... I guess that's why they say "ignorance is bliss"...:o)

-- Linda (botkinhomeschool@yahoo.com), June 28, 2000.


Goodness Gracious! Wow - where did that come from, and does it date me? My suspicion is that most, or at least many, are defining things on much too narrow a scale. For all of you, please define "religion"! Tho I am a Deist, and not a follower of any particular established, accepted, "religion", I consider myself to be quite religious, at least by my definitions. I believe in "GOD", and an "afterlife". I live by the Golden Rule and do not regularly attend any formal services. I'm happy with my dedication. Is that somehow lacking? I think not, but that works for me, perhaps no others! GL!

-- Brad (Homefixer@SacoRiver.net), June 28, 2000.

brad, yeah, it does work for others. i think that it is funny that people think that because they have had some particular upbringing or have had a particular religious awakening that all of the billions of people that have and do believe otherwise must be completely wrong. the bible is a great guide for how one ought to live. suzanne sommer's "eat great-lose weight" is another really good guide. there are a lot of good guides out there, some are more important than others, some perhaps more inspired. but just because the one that you like is good for you doesn't make every other belief system wrong for everyone. would god really choose to abandon 4/5 of the world's population by giving them or allowing them to believe another religion? that doesn't seem likely....it doesn't make a lick of sense.... john

-- john houser (farmrjon@juno.com), June 29, 2000.

Why does God have to make sense? Matthew 7: 13-14 says: Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. NIV Those were Jesus' words. My prayer is that all of you will find the "narrow " gate. I love everyone here.

-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), June 29, 2000.

I only have one thing to say really.....John L., I understand exactly where you are, I have been there myself. Taking something as Gospel because someone said to just never sat well with me. I took Theology as independent study in H.S. and found that the major tenets of the 7 largest religions are very much the same....except for Judaism, Islam, and Christianity they are pretty much saying that whatever way you take is okay, so long as you seek.

That is very comforting, HOWEVER, there is only one religion that claims to have had God Himself take on flesh and pay the ultimate sacrifice for each and everyone us individually. There is only one that says, "The only way to the Father is through the Son".

I made my decision to accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour almost 10 years ago. The thing that clinched it for me was reading a red letter version of the Bible and avoiding all the Doctrine and other stuff.

The bottom line is, since all the others leave so much room for your own perceptions, wouldn't it just stink to be wrong for all of eternity if this is indeed, the only way to complete fulfillment and TRUTH?

Sorry, my one thing had a couple little bunny trails. I will pray to the God of All, the Creator, Redeemer, and Saviour for his touch to come on all of you.

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), June 29, 2000.


It appears that most of the homesteaders on the board seem to have faith in the hereafter, at least, and an appreciation for God's work. I only want to make a point that I agree with the writer/farmer Wendell Berry that organized religion has contributed to the loss of our rural culture. The current state of religious doctrine it to lure people into the building with promises of eternity and forgiveness of sin. The separation of church and life is almost complete. In Homesteading, whether you realize it or not, you are working to rejoin your life and your connection with God's work that is all around you. This is a better testament to your soul's worth than any religious rhetoric will ever be. By living the frugal life, putting back into the soil what is taken out, you become part of the universe in a way that no amount of sunday praise can replace. Thank you all for showing the value of using the land well, enjoying the world around you, and teaching your children to do the same. Everything else is just death by entertainment.

-- Dan (dconine@dotnet.com), June 29, 2000.

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