Is there anyone else out there surrounded by idiot developers? Despite the fact property is not moving now, developers continue to tear up farmland and build houses they hope they can sell. Because we are near an Olympic venue site, many are convinced that we are another Park City. However we do not have the resources or infastructure to support a large population. What brought all this on? I don't have any water. Yes, I do have my stored water. What I don't have at the moment is water for my garden or taps. Because an idiot developer is putting in a new pipline to a new well that our local water company just had to borrow money for because the developer is late on paying his large connection fee. (Please excuse that sentence. I hope it made sense.) So the contractor is running this new pipeline along side the old pipeline and he keeps ripping it open. Hence, no water. And this isn't the first time either. Since at least one developer is going bankrupt, and too many others have new houses sitting empty, why do they continue to build more? Some of these new homes only recieve water every third day in the late summer/early fall. I do not understand the thinking of some people. Is there any hope of finding some sanity?

-- Cheryl Cox (bramblecottage@hotmail.com), June 01, 2000

Answers

In today's screwed up society, debt is an asset. And conversly, assests are considered risks! Go figure! Anyway, the banks are happy to loan money to a good credit risk, who has to DO something with all of that money, so why not speculate and build houses? Just my opinion.

There's talk of a 500 home subdivision going in here too, on the other side of town - hope it doesn't happen.

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 01, 2000.

Hate to point this 'point' out, but, there is a town hall- and meetings-for a reason. Had you paid attention to what was going on before it happened? You had a say in this. Yes, the system is well, less than perfect-my story can wait for another time. Been there. So, now we know. Pay attention to those legal notices in the paper, boring,yes. Invaluable, yes.

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), June 01, 2000.

Folks, I don't know how it works in your area, but some of my neighbors and I started up a "CAC", or Citizens Advisory Committee. By doing so, we now have not only more clout in land use planning issues, but we are notified of EVERY land use application for our CAC area (in our case it's the entire Jumpoff Joe Creek valley-about forty square miles of sparsely populated forestland, primarily)

We only held elections about six weeks ago, and have only had one official meeting, but the process has already been successful in bringing the neighborhood together. We are going to have various agencies give us workshops in understanding land use laws, forestry issues, ramifications of a neighboring area's attempts at incorporating, and hopefully many other issues.

Talk to your local Planning Department, if there is one, and see what you can do in this regard. I believe it is worth it. It not only is a way to become informed; it's also a vehicle for people to get more involved and have more of a voice.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), June 01, 2000.

Let me get this right--are you saying that after 90 hours a week on a tractor that I have the time to attend evey council meeting ? I think they are a waste of time because if they don't like what we make them do than they have an unscheduled meeting and do as they please. There is a better way. When they bring in the dozers than "destroy them" by any means at hand. When they frame the homes than chainsaw them down. By taking the profit out than you STOP the insanity ! This country started with a little ole fashioned justice we called The Boston Tea Party. Just call yours The Neighborhood House Party !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 02, 2000.

Yes, this is a hot button for me. We lobbied for some frontage requirements other than the 50' they had!! Imagine 50' x 500' slots with a bunch of cheaply built frame homes built on them...we thought that was bad. Then they implimented a 250' frontage requirement. Now, we have 250' x 500' slots with expensive yuppie 'country' dwellings. You can't win. The almight $$ calls the shots in this country and has for the last 150 years.

My solution after years of basically wasting my time bickering and lobbying with the local politicians was to find a piece of land with a lot of frontage and stable, land loving farmers as neighbors. I always look at their(the farmer's) machinery to tell how long they'll remain viable.

Joel's idea is a bit radical, not to mention the fact it can get you some jail time, but I have to admit, I have entertained the thought more than a few times.

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), June 02, 2000.

It was geat to hear from others on this topic. I worry that my chosen lifstyle will be put in danger because of the very expensive homes being built around me. Not to mention how horribly sad it is to see these homes sit empty on good farmland. Yes, our township planning commission is now saying no. However, the developers are then going to the county planning commission to overturn that no. We are waiting to see if they will heed our wishes. As to where I was when the homes were approved, I was working three jobs. One just can't stay on top of everything. But I still think these developers are idiots for continuing is the present fiscal climate here.

-- Cheryl Cox (bramblecottage@hotmail.com), June 02, 2000.

Cheryl: Are you still in Liberty? Last time I was there, I couldn't believe the development! My nephew sold his home in Eden, near you, because of the development around him. I grew up in Ogden Canyon, below where you live, and can't believe they are going to route all the people up there for the olympics. Yikes! I go back about every 4 weeks, and it changes dramatically! Jan Bullock in Colorado

-- Jan (Janice12@aol.com), June 02, 2000.

Joel, I hate to rain on your parade, but how would you like it if someone wrecked YOUR tractor? Or if they vandalized YOUR house while it was being built?

Why do you think YOUR lifestyle is so superior to that of those who will be living in these houses that you have the right to destroy their homes? I really don't understand.

Folks, if we are tired of seeing houses sprouting like mushrooms after a spring rain, (and I'm as sick of it as anyone), don't get violent-- get political. Change your zoning laws. Change the paradigm. Change your reproductive habits.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), June 03, 2000.

You cannot please everybody!! Here we have the Growth Management Act which was put to the voters and passed, with a lot of controversy. Essentially, it says that growth must and will take place largely within boundaries of existing development, thereby preserving open areas and farms. Just about everyone hates the concept. One big beef is in what these already developed areas consist of. Folks who live in the towns are now upset that their lovely neighborhoods are destined for urban density and the problems associated with turning into cities. Another problem is that farmers that can't find a family member or anyone else, for that matter, to take over their dairies, etc, are FURIOUS that they cannot subdivide their land and sell to developers, as they have been planning for the last 20-30 years. All that work for essentially no money (you guys know how much farmers make!!)and now NO choices! All the rest of us are freaking out about the traffic and yet we are unwilling to mandate any legistlation that would mitigate any of it (our rights to do as we want to, driving wise!). ETC, ETC, ETC...

What do you do with all this population? You guys who live in some of the places where "nobody" wants to live have no idea what it's like to live in a place where the population is growing by double digits every year ( I shudder to think of living in an area outside of Phoenix or Las Vegas!!!!!!) How do you arrive at the best good for the best number of people? Or do you you just shoot them as they move into town? Or do you just move away and let somebody else deal with it (it's surely tempting!)

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 03, 2000.

I feel obligated to answer Jumpoff's question to me. First, you would never find me on a dozer clearing land again. If I attempted to build on farmland than I expect someone to stop me. I guess my point is--The land is more important than the creature that infests it. God said, Be fruitfull and multiply. He did not say, Be stupid and multiply so much that you over run the very land you need to grow food on. If the people come to the land with growing crops in mind than I welcome them. By all means, build a dwelling for your family. If they happen to be land rapers and greed minded developers than I say--Cut,burn,and vandalize them till they go broke and choke on the very dollar they sought to steal from the people of this planet at large. I respect you joe but I have my ways and you have yours. Your way is failing and I cannot sit idly by and let the farmland get over run while I listen to a lot of rhetoric about a democracy that died 40 years ago. When you live in a country where the law is "For Sale" to the highest bidder than you are forced to write your own. I did not create natural law, it was placed in my mind before I left my mother's womb. I do have the upmost respect for your courage to wage a legal war against overwhelming odds and I tip my hat to your efforts. I must add that I believe that deep in your heart you understand that you don't stand a chance in Hates. The fact that we both approach the problem from different ends should be a comfort not a controversy. As long as the land is protected than it doesn't matter how many humans don't get rich or are denied property. As much as you might not understand me--I also do not understand how you can associate yourself with council meetings. I find them to be the most despicable people that I have ever encountered, natural born liars and thieves that would sell their mothers to house of ill repute if it gained them a dollar. As you can tell, I feel very strongly on this issue. I hope we both continue to use every means at our disposal to protect the land. I don't believe we will ever build a complete bridge across the waters of our difference in opinion. I'll continue to do what I have to do and in my heart, I am just. I really respect your thoughts and opinions. Joel Rosen

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 03, 2000.

This subject drives me crazy. We are attempting to buy a farm and even if someone like us comes along and wants to preserve it- the system has made it impossible to do do!

We can't buy a 280,000 farm on 27 acres but the banks would loan us 280,000 to buy a big house on half an acre.

Farmers can't pass on a farm to someone who can't possibly finance it!

Developers are the only ones with the money to do so.

Farm credit will only loan if the farm is up and running- not idle as it might be in the last years of a farmers life. Farm Service Agency won't finance unless you have been running a farm for 3 years.

It is nearly impossible to finance- that is a big reason why farms are not preserved.

Amy

-- Amy Richards (tiggerwife@aol.com), June 04, 2000.

I have an idea, Amy. I would suggest a try at a 3 or 5 year Contract with the present owner. This would give you a balloon payment at the end of contract but you would have met all the requirements of a Farm Loan. Warning--you will have to show a profit in your 3 year attempt. Not a major profit but a "profit". With the farming situation these days that may require a little "creative book keeping". Keep searching for ideas. If there is one thing this country needs it is more farms.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 04, 2000.

Joel,

We have suggested that but as this is an estate- they want to settle it. It is between two brothers- one wants US to move there because we will farm- the other just wants the highest bidder. There is talk of turning it into mini storage buildings or an auto junkyard!

There is hope- I gave up on it completely (after calling 50 banks and every government agency) and prayed. I told God that I had tried but couldn't do it. If He wanted us to have the farm then it was up to Him.

I got a call from a banker the next day. He had been called by another banker who had not been able to help. He is able to give us the loan on the terms we had wanted. I guess they keep their loans in house and therefore are able to use a little common sense.

Now we just need to get our offer accepted.

Cross your fingers- or it is one more farm paved over. :(

Amy

-- Amy Richards (tiggerwife@aol.com), June 05, 2000.

Our prayers go with you and yours, Amy ! Best Wishes and GL

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 05, 2000.

OK,, question for everyone.

If all the foolish developers buy all the Farm Land,,which they seem to be doing at a very fast rate!!!~~~~~~

How are the Farmers supossed to feed the country (city folk who have no idea where food comes from)if there are few to No Farms left in a few years time????????????

When are people going to relise that we need the Farms we HAVE to STAY Farms??????

Or is it going to be,, oppsss,,, Guess we will have to buy all our food from other countries,, because the USA will be one big suburb??

It is sooo hard for Farmers large and small to keep their Farms going. In another 2 years time I am going to be taxed right off my small place. By then it will be time to move,, way too many non Farming people.

OK,, another question.... Why is it, when you tell a city folk my son can`t eat any thing that comes from dairy cows,, ie.. milk, butter, whey,, etc..etc.. they ALWAYS come up with,,, but the cookies have eggs in them!! AK!!! For some strange reason,, I thought eggs came from Chickens (you know like the ones I raise) and NOT from a milking cow!

Or has someone done some genetic stuff I don`t know about and crossed a chicken with a cow. ( okay okay... now I`m getting a little strange!! :O) ) Funny, but scary~ ~ ~ ~

Or how about the spinner that wants wool,, and thinks it comes from bushes,,, not sheep. Sheesh.... Guess,, us country/Farm people don`t know much!!

-- Bergere (autumnhaus@aol.com), June 05, 2000.

Bergere, In the early 80's it was discovered that South America had good soil, longer seasons and cheaper labor ! All that was needed was a "little ground clearing" Bull dozers being expensive, they used fire. They want to switch the major farming there now. They being --The World Bank. You said "taxed off my land". That is the intention !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 06, 2000.

Joel, your favorite personal critic here :) The original owners of our land some 200 acres in forest did not want this property sold to anyone who would timber the trees. A company purchased it pushed a dirt road through selling the property in 10 and 15 acre parcels. Most of the folks cleared the property. We cleared some and kept some in trees. We now pasture our very profitable dairy goats on this timbered pasture, and garden. Other folks live in homes with nothing more than a dog tied to an old pickup, and 6 pine trees left, mowing grass all weekend. We love our property just like they love theirs, the original owner is dead and gone but went to his grave very upset. What was the original purpose of your land and would the original owner 100 years ago be pleased? Doubt it. Farms are unprofitable because folks do not buy local, anything. They will not give me what my milk or eggs (eggs which have to be ulta-washed) are worth, if I add my real labor costs. They will not accept fruit or vegetables from my garden with one bug bite on it, but the tomatoes from Mexico even though full of insecticide are bought up at the grocery store! It is a viscous circle. I have no idea what part of our world you live in, or if you are simply all talk, but I would love to have you out here sometime destroying property, folks out here don't just talk the talk, they carry guns and walk the walk. Your posts are always so full of ill will and anger, I hope for your health that this is just your attempt to wake us up? Vicki in Texas

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 06, 2000.

Joel, you said: "I feel obligated to answer Jumpoff's question to me. First, you would never find me on a dozer clearing land again."

So, Joel, you HAVE cleared land. Yet now you want to vandalize the work of someone else who is doing the same thing you yourself have done in the past. No problem here, Joel. You've changed your mind!

I agree with Vicki. If you go around acting like a vandal, being a vandal, in fact, you're likely to wake up some morning in a state of extreme death.

Sounds to me like you're suffering from the "I've got mine, screw everyone else" syndrome.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), June 06, 2000.

I just posted a new thread with some good news about possibly helping preserve farm land... I guess I am an optimist in many ways! I posted it separately b/c it's a news article. There is something to be said about all those dumb council meetings, I guess.. :)

I always wish folk would concentrate on problem solving and positive thinking!( I have to remind myself, too!) I grew up listening to everyone grouse about everything and it never ever changed a thing!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 06, 2000.

Yes, Yes, Yes. A trailer park is going up on one of my property lines. The developer told the resident there that he could shoot all he wanted (first trailer in the park). Well this fool was getting drunk and shooting all over the place, including towards my house, a mere 600 feet from his firing position. My husband was in the pasture one day when this idiot was firing and wound up in the prone position to avoid being shot. Now you'd expect an apology, but the attitude was that the developer owned all the land and he had permission to shoot whenever he liked. Then our brilliant sheriff's department told us, get this, "Bullets don't trespass". After several incidents we were so fed up, we called everybody we could think of, including the ATF and promised that next time we were fired on, we were firing back. The sheriff came out personally and we haven't had a problem since.

Since many on the town board don't particularly like the developer or the idea of the trailer park, we've been asked by several members to put a nice big herd of swine right along that property line. But we are lucky, we are pretty much the only farm, humble as we are, and they want to keep us.

-- Anne Tower (bbill@wtvl.net), June 07, 2000.

Where is that article posted, sheepish ? Jumpoff, That is probably why I volunteered have my life away and continue to plant other people's farms so they can pay their property taxes and keep the farmland--Your right--it must be because "I got mine" Good ole Vicki--I see your still the famed millionaire goat roaper on a six acrea parcel. I'm so conforted to find out your proud to have turned some real farmer over in his grave while you raped the land for a hobby. Did you get that Lincoln Navigator yet ? I wouldn't want you to have to drive around that huge farm in a common farmers truck. If your not awake yet--nothing can help you. 100 years ago this was a farm--today it is a farm ! I'm not fearing any man's guns(cause I have bigger and better ones) ! I have the added comfort of knowing that no jury of my peers would convict me off crimes against land rapers in Craig County, Virginia ! We are just insuring paradise stays put--BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY ! I hope you someday come to realize this but in my heart, I feel we will be buying ice from the devil first.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 09, 2000.

Joel, here's the link. Let me know if you need the Herald link..it's at Heraldnet.com in the last few days. It's pretty cool if they follow through with it. Of course, the irony is having to do it in the first place BECAUSE of all the development!!

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003HmD

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 09, 2000.