I don't know how many of you folks have ever been to Arlington cemetary, but this poem is inscribed on brass plates in stanzas throughout the cemetary. It's a very moving place, and a very moving poem.

As an atheist, I know that this life is that a person has or ever will have. And so the sacrifices of those men and women who died in defense of our country, and the sacrifices of those who were prepared to die, hold a great deal of meaning for me. It is in memory of the dead and honor of the living that I share this poem.

THE BIVOUAC OF THE DEAD

The muffled drum's sad roll has beat The soldier's last tattoo; No more on Life's parade shall meet That brave and fallen few. On Fame's eternal camping-ground Their silent tents are spread, And Glory guards, with solemn round, The bivouac of the dead.

No rumor of the foe's advance Now swells upon the wind; No troubled thought at midnight haunts Of loved ones left behind; No vision of the morrow's strife The warrior's dream alarms; No braying horn nor screaming fife At dawn shall call to arms.

Their shivered swords are red with rust; Their plumid heads are bowed Their haughty banner, trailed with dust, Is now their martial shroud. And plenteous funeral tears have washed The red stains from each brow, And the proud forms, by battle gashed, Are free from anguish now.

'Twas in that hour his stern command Called to many a martyr's grave The flower of his belovid land, The nation's flag to save.

Theodore O'Hara

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 29, 2000

Answers

Tarzan, Nice poem. In the context you present it, the finality of it all from the atheistic view, it is even more profound and sombering. Thanks!

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 29, 2000.

Tarzan---

How do you "know" that this life is the only life that you or anyone will have? And IF it is the only life, then why does it matter how we live or how we die?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 30, 2000.

Quite simply, Lars, I died once. I experienced nothing, no tunnel of light, no whiff of brimstone, no line of relatives waiting to welcome me home. Nada, zip. One minute I was conscious, then there was blackness and unconsciousness, then I was conscious again. When I spoke to the doctor, he told me that my experience (or lack thereof) was much more typical of NDEs that he had been involved with.

I never thought much about life after death before, but I started reading up on the subject in the months during my recovery. What I realized was that those who had vivid NDEs always had experiences that reflected their own personal beliefs. There are no accounts of devout Hindus seeing Jesus, and there are no accounts of devout Christians seeing Ganesh.

Finally, since this is the only life we have, the way one lives it is of utmost importance. After all, it's the only chance you get.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 30, 2000.

Tarzan,

No offense, but if by "die" you mean an irreversible loss of life, then you didn't really die, you were in a death-like state, or you may have been in the *process* of dying, but if you were DEAD you wouldn't be here now (at least if athiesm is correct).

Many people are resuscitated, and even if their hearts and breathing have stopped, they aren't really DEAD until they don't come back.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 30, 2000.

I'll grant you the NDE observation. That "tunnel of light" always seemed gimmicky, New Agey to me.

But I'll stand by my other point, altho I understand your POV. I just don't buy it. The way I see it is that if this life is all that there is, then there really is NOTHING and nothing truly matters.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 30, 2000.

Frank-

According to the attending physicians, I was clinically dead for several minutes. No brain waves, no heart beat, no breathing, nada. If you wish to argue with them, have at it. Post an e-mail address and I'll send you dates, names, numbers, and insurance forms.

Lars-

You are absolutely correct. Life, in and of itself, is completely meaningless. Whatever meaning it has comes solely from the person living it. If it's a meaningful life you're after, you must take responsibility for your own life and infuse it with the meaning you desire. You are completely responsible for your own happiness, or lack thereof. As the song says, "Yo no soy marinero soy capitan"

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 30, 2000.

Your story reminds me of the Star Trek: Voyager episode wherein Nelix dies & is brought back to life. His culture taught that all deceased relatives would meet by a particular tree & spend eternity together.

He died - no relatives - no tree. If I had a memory I'd relate more. I don't remember the ending.

Thanks for relating your experience T-man.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 30, 2000.

Tarzan,

Suffice to say I totally disagree. As the old Peggy Lee song goes

"Is that all there is?"

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 30, 2000.

Lars, I hope T-man is correct in that our experience after this life is based upon our beliefs during it. Suits me dandy.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 30, 2000.

Tarzan,

Thanks anyhow, but there's a difference between "clinically dead" and "dead". "Clinically dead" means "as far as we can tell, you're dead". "Dead" means "you are dead".

I've seen people come back from being "clinically dead" for short periods of time (minutes) but NEVER have I seen a DEAD person come back to life. (Although I understand it HAS happened :-) ).

Anyway, I don't need any reports to quibble over a definition.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 30, 2000.

Tarzan,

P.S. Good to see your brains didn't get scrambled from O2 deprivation. You must have had a good code team &/or not TOO long under.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 30, 2000.

Bingo-

What I'm saying is that there is nothing after you die. However, some people experience hallucinations at the moment of death which reflect their personal beliefs

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 30, 2000.

Bingo---

I understood Tarzan to be saying that he "knew" there was nothing beyond this life. Then he went on to say "life in and of itself is completely meaningless" (my original point). Then he went on to say "you are resposible for your own happiness". Who was talking about happiness? Not me. Not the guys at Arlington. Then he went on to quote a song about soy sauce. I really didn't get that part.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 30, 2000.

Could be. Thanks for the clarification. Do you have a theory as to why you experienced nothingness?

As anyone who's read my posts knows, I'll take hallucinations any old time!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 30, 2000.

Those who want to prove for themselves the scientific truth of the doctrine of reincarnation should first prove the principle of continuity of consciousnss after death by learning the art of consciously separating the soul from the body. This can be done by following the rules laid down many centuries ago by the Hindu savants: Learn 1) to be conscious during sleep; 2) to be able to produce dreams at will; 3) to disconnect the five senses consciously, not passively as during slesep, and 4) to control the action of the heart, which is to experience conscious death, or the suspended animation of the body (but not of the consciousness) that occurs during the higher states of superconsciousness.

Bagavan Krishna taught: "The ego is continuously conscious of itself in childhood, youth, and old age; the embodied soul is uninterruptedly conscious not only of these states but also of attaining another body after death."

By following the practices that lead to the four states outlined above, we can follow the go in all states of existence--we can follow it consciously through death, through space, to other bodies or other worlds. Those who do not learn these things cannot retain their sense of personal identity, of awareness of consciousness, during the big sleep of death, and hence cannot remember any previous state, or even the "deep sleep" states during one life.

By adopting the methods of the ancient Hindu scientists who experimented with such laws, and who thereby gave the world a knowledge that is priceless and demonstrable, one may come to know the scientific truth of reincarnation and all other eternal verities.

-- --Pararmahansa Yogananda (reincarnationcanbe@scientificallyproven.com), May 30, 2000.

Lurkers!!!

JG!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 30, 2000.

What I'm saying is that there is nothing after you die.

You're missing the point. Even if there is nothing, that "nothing" is something.

The problem arises when the human consiousness tries to comprehend "time". When we die, it is at least comparable to falling into a black hole, in fact it is a fitting allegory. No information from the internal state of the black hole can be transmitted to the outside of it. Science tells us that, to an observer falling into a black hole, all of eternity passes in a few seconds as he is pulled to the core of the singularity where space and time are warped to infinitesimal proportions.

Since we would concievable lose our perception of time at the moment of death, can death be much different than this scenario? What exactly happens when "all of eternity passes in a few seconds"?

-- Depak Choprah (voice@inner.self), May 30, 2000.

Pararmahansa,

What is the sound of one hand clapping? (Personally, I liked the Rockford Files answer)

Frank

P.S. Love your cheese

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 30, 2000.

Depak-

All experience ceases when one dies. You cannot experience nothing when you are not there to experience it.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 30, 2000.

So who cares anyhow? Soon enough we'll know if there is anything beyond this world. Temporal life is a piss in the ocean of eternity.

In the meantime, I try to live a semblance of a moral life, as conventionally defined. In the meantime, "bring on the booze, let's have a ball".

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 30, 2000.

There's no "you" to begin with.All phenomena are impermanent and empty of a separate self.That which we call "self" or "soul" are merely aggregate conditions of form,feelings,perceptions,thoughts,and mind co-existing.The idea of a seperate self(atman)is erroneous and causes unnessary suffering.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 31, 2000.

Tarzan,

"What I'm saying is that there is nothing after you die. However, some people experience hallucinations at the moment of death which reflect their personal beliefs"

HOw do you know that there is nothing after you die?

-- Observer (lots@to.observe), May 31, 2000.

Observer,

Give it up, I've already tried.

Trying to save you some time,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 31, 2000.

I S THAT ALL THERE IS?

-- (nemesis@awol.com), May 31, 2000.

Observer-

I know that there is no life after death because there is no evidence that there is life after death, in the same manner that I know my car cannot fly like an airplane because there is no evidence that my car cannot fly like an airplane.

If you have evidence for life after death, I invite you to offer it.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 31, 2000.

Tarz---

That doesn't mean there is no life after death; that only means there is no hard evidence for life after death. Why do you think Webster invented the word "faith"?

-- Larz (lars@indy.net), May 31, 2000.

Here ya go monkey man:

Flying Car Ready for Takeoff - May 27 1999

-- Depak Choprah (voice@inner.self), May 31, 2000.

Tarzan,

I don't have any proof one way or the other, but I'm not quite as quantitative about it as you seem to be. Perhaps it is just wishful thinking, but ever since I was a child I have always felt that there is more to life than just our physically measurable existance. I must admit that the three times I have been put under general anesthetic, I also recall nothing. I felt kind of cheated after hearing other peoples stories of beautiful dreams, exotic visions, etc. Maybe they gave me the wrong "stuff". I guess we'll know for sure when we pass on. But in the meantime, I look forward to meeting Jesus as opposed to nothingness or a greeting from Satan, Bill Clinton nonwithstanding!

-- Observer (lots@to.observe), May 31, 2000.

"That doesn't mean there is no life after death; that only means there is no hard evidence for life after death. Why do you think Webster invented the word "faith"?"

Larz, Webster didn't invent the word faith, he merely cataloged it. There are lots of things for which there is no hard evidence, such as teleportation machines, invisible pink unicorns, and Elvis sightings. Do you have faith in those things? After all, just because there's no evidence for invisible pink unicorns doesn't mean they don't exist.

"Here ya go monkey man: Flying Car Ready for Takeoff - May 27 1999"

Cute Depak. Now why don't you provide evidence for life after death?

"Perhaps it is just wishful thinking, but ever since I was a child I have always felt that there is more to life than just our physically measurable existance."

Good for you, Observer. I have never felt that way. What does that prove?

"I must admit that the three times I have been put under general anesthetic, I also recall nothing. I felt kind of cheated after hearing other peoples stories of beautiful dreams, exotic visions, etc. Maybe they gave me the wrong "stuff"."

Actually, I've had dreams while under anesthetic. When I woke up and realized what had happened, I was pretty upset. Dreams happen in a lighter stage of sleep, and a patient in a lighter stage of sleep runs a high risk of waking up during surgery. Consciousness during surgery is very, very rare, but it does happen, and those who suffer from it go through terrible ordeals.

"I guess we'll know for sure when we pass on. But in the meantime, I look forward to meeting Jesus as opposed to nothingness or a greeting from Satan, Bill Clinton nonwithstanding!"

Good for you. Personally, I find the thought of an afterlife to be disturbing in the extreme. If there is an afterlife, why continue to live this life, why not simply dispense with the preliminaries by killing yourself? And once you do get to the afterlife, what happens after that? Is there a post-afterlife? A post-post afterlife? And if not, what's the point of the afterlife, since life is neither short nor transitionary?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejungleiwthouta.net), June 01, 2000.

Tarzan,

Catch a sense of humor man. I know that Webster didn't "invent" words; I know that he catalogued words. Why are aetheists so often arrogant?

Of course there is no hard evidence for life hereafter. Likewise there is no hard evidence for no-life hereafter. You have faith in no afterlife; I have faith in something (I don't know what) beyond this vale o' tears. I choose to believe this. If I'm wrong, what have I lost?

What? You don't know about invisible pink unicorns? You poor guy.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), June 01, 2000.

"Catch a sense of humor man. I know that Webster didn't "invent" words; I know that he catalogued words. Why are aetheists so often arrogant?"

I have an excellent sense of humor. You're simply not funny.

Seriously though, I have many people on the net who think (among other things) that Webster "invented" words. How, exactly, am I supposed to know you're joking? And if I don't know you're joking, how, exactly, does this make me arrogant?

"Of course there is no hard evidence for life hereafter. Likewise there is no hard evidence for no-life hereafter."

One cannot, by definition, prove a negative. Prove I'm not Elvis. Prove I'm not capable of flying like a bird if I flap my wings long enough. All that we can do is examine an idea and prove the ways in which it is ccontradictory or wrong. Thus, an invisible pink unicorn is impossible, because pink is part of the visible light spectrum, and by definition, something having the quality of pink can not be invisible.

"You have faith in no afterlife; I have faith in something (I don't know what) beyond this vale o' tears. I choose to believe this. If I'm wrong, what have I lost?"

Strictly speaking, I lack faith in an afterlife. If you choose to believe in one, that is your problem not mine. So why come onto a thread in which I posted a poem for Memorial Day and tout your beliefs?

"What? You don't know about invisible pink unicorns? You poor guy."

Oh, is that humor? Ha ha. Very amusing.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 01, 2000.

Tarzan, you said

Seriously though, I have many people on the net who think (among other things) that Webster "invented" words.

You *have* many people? Are you a slaveowner?

See the point?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 01, 2000.

Tarzan--

I did not come to this thread to tout my beliefs. If you had merely posted the Arlington poem as a standalone Memorial Day tribute to vets then I would not have posted any answer except maybe something corny like "hauntingly beautiful".

But you had to preface the poem with the remark "As an aetheist, I know that this life is that a person has or ever will have". I responded to that by simply asking a question---

>Tarzan > > How do you "know" that this life is the only life that you or >anyone will have? And IF it is the only life, then why does it matter >how we live or how we die?

Then, as threads will do, it wandered on to many people posting many thoughts.

True, invisible Unicorns are not pink. Nor are visible narwhals. But their dinks are pink.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), June 01, 2000.

Now why don't you provide evidence for life after death?

Suppose we give someone an emphatagenic substance like MDMA. This drug blocks the seretonin receptor in the brain that stimulates fear and allows us to feel the love of God.

Then we give him a psychedelic substance like LSD. This drug blocks another receptor that stimulates the human societal filters and allows us to see the mental images in the mind of God.

And finally we give him a dissociative substance like Ketamine. This drug blocks a third receptor that stimulates temporal perception and allows us to feel the timelessness of God.

When we block these receptors, we are temporarily shutting down parts of our neural programming that create our perceptions of reality. When we shut them all down at once, we find that we have become God. A timeless, loving, supermind.

In other words, when most people realize that at the same time, they are nothing, and at the same time, they are God, they are dead.

Like fine wine, women and song, Tarzan, some things can only be experienced, not learned from inky symbols, colored pixels, or guttural sounds.

-- Depak Choprah (voice@inner.self), June 01, 2000.

Deepak, if you're saying the only way to experience "god" is through drugs, then have at it. I've taken drugs before, and enjoyed the experience, but saw nothing magical or mysterious in that experience. Likewise, I once climbed a high mountain and cast my shadow on the top of the clouds (there was a low lying bank of fog, I stood between it and the sun). It was incredible, truly unforgettable, a singular, remarkable, experience. However, I can appreciate this experience for what it ACTUALLY was and not weigh it down with extraneous myths.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 05, 2000.