I was looking at a farm that is for sale in the area. (Wisconsin) The place has been kept up real nice and is over 85 yrs. old. New wiring would have to be one of the first things to correct. Windows and insulation would be replaced as money is provided. My real concern is the septic. The owner who's always lived there said the septic was done in the '60s, calls it "a big hole in the ground with rocks at the botom". They raised 3 kids there but have been alone for many years. The "gray" water(as they describe it) from the washing, is pumped UP and OUT a window onto the yard instead of going down the drain. My concern is, how do I know if it is still good? He says it's always worked for them! BUT - we would be running more water than them, flushing more toilets, etc.. The realator already told me that if I offer a price considerably lower than they were asking, that it would have to be my responsibility at my expense to get the septic approved. Rather than spending a couple hundred dollars for a place I might not even end up with, how can I tell if it would meet our expectations???? Thanks for any advice!!!!!

-- Pat Mikul (pmikul@pcpros.net), May 07, 2000

Answers

Pat, you will have to check with the local building inspector and find out what the codes are, what would be acceptable for you to do. There is probably no reason that their 'hole in the ground with rocks in it' wouldn't continue working, but it may be grandfathered. That is, they may be getting away with it because it's always been there but you may not get away with it because you will have to have inspections of the place before you can get a mortgage, and the lender may say, you have to fix that septic system before we will lend you any money to buy this property. I would do something about the graywater though even if nobody cares about the septic system. There are several things you could do with the graywater without dumping it in the septic system (actually, what you described sounds more like a cesspool). There are several books and some good websites dealing with country water supplies and waste disposal -- you will have to do some research. My biggest concern, I think, would be whether the well is a safe distance from the waste-water disposal areas -- if so, you shouldn't have to worry about contaminated drinking water, but you would want to have it tested before buying the place. The folks that have been living there may never have been sick, but they could be immune to whatever germs are in their own water supply. You, coming in new, would not be. You have a lot of reading and some legwork ahead of you, but even if you don't get this place, it will stand you in good stead the next time.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 07, 2000.

Kathleen, The gray water is only from the washing machine.

-- Pat (pmikul@pcpros.net), May 07, 2000.

MY WIFE AND I INHERITED A 128 ACRE FARM. THE CESSPOOL OR SEPTIC TANK WAS THE ORIGINAL ONE PUT IN WHEN THE FARMHOUSE GOT A BATHROOM PUT IN WHICH I IMAGINE WOULD BE IN THE FOURTIES OF FIFTIES. MY FATHER IN LAW ONLY KNEW OF IT BEING PUMPED OUT ONCE OR TWICE. THIS YEAR WHILE PUTTING IN A GAS LINE WE FOUND IT! IT HAD A LARGE STONE OVER THE OPENING AND WAS ABOUT 5' ACROSS AND 6' DEEP. IT HAD LARGE STONES PILED UP ALONG THE SIDES MUCH LIKE OUR HAND DUG WATER WELL. WE HAD IT PUMPED OUT SINCE WE DUG INTO IT WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE GOOD SINCE THE OUTLET PIPE WAS PLUGGED. WE HAD NO IDEA IT WAS PLUGGED UP, BUT THE PUMPER HAD QUITE A TIME TRYING TO GET THE SOLIDIFIED MESS SUCKED UP. OUR HOUSE HAS ONLY HAD SINCE THE FOURTIES AND FIFTIES MY WIFE'S GREAT AUNT AND UNCLE LIVE THERE, AND NOW US WITH OUR TWO YEAR OLD SON. I PLAN ON PUMPING IT OUT IN FIVE YEARS AND SEEING HOW IT IS DOING. DEPENDING ON HOW FULL IT IS, WE MAY HAVE TO GET IT PUMPED MORE OFTEN OR LESS OFTEN. THE ONLY WATER GOING INTO IT IS FROM THE BATHROOM - A SINK, BATHTUB, AND TOILET. THE WATER FROM OUR KITCHEN AND CLOTHES WASHER JUST RUNS OUT INTO THE YARD - I EXTENDED THAT LINE TO PUT IT INTO WHERE THE OLD PIG PEN USED TO BE, SO I WOULDN'T HAVE TO MOW AROUND THE OUTLET PIPE ANYMORE. I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU WOULD HAVE TO GET IT APPROVED SINCE IT IS ALREADY IN USE. HOPE THIS INFORMATION HELPS. BY THE WAY, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CESSPOOL AND A SEPTIC TANK?

-- MICHAEL W. SMITH (KIRKLBB@PENN.COM), May 07, 2000.

The owner said they've never had it pumped! Said never was a need to. Should warning flags be going up on this one? I sure like the place but don't want to go into it having to put a large sum of $ into it!

-- Pat (pmikul@pcpros.net), May 07, 2000.

First of all, Michael, you have really good information, but it is hard on the eyes to read all caps! The difference between a septic system and a cesspool is that the septic system has a drainfield -- a system (simple or complex) of pipes with holes in them that leads the liquid effluent away from the tank and disperses it in a larger area of ground. The cesspool doesn't have the pipes; it has some kind of porous bottom (rocks, in your case) that allows the liquids to seep out into the ground under the tank. The theory is that the septic tank allows some digestion and decompostion of the solids that enter the system, and hopefully some reduction in the number of harmful germs that enter the soil. Cesspools are now illegal in many areas. If your water supply is safe (test it) I wouldn't worry about using one, though. But, as I said above, if you are having to get a bank loan, they are going to look at everything, and they may not be willing to loan money on the place until everything is up to code. This is more to protect their investment than out of any real concern for your health, but if you've got to get a mortgage to buy the place, they call the shots. Pat, I know the graywater is only from the washing machine (though water from the tub, bathroom and kitchen sinks is also considered graywater). The thing is, is the water draining far enough away from the house to not be going down in the ground right next to the foundation? Because that could cause problems -- you want good drainage and as little water as possible next to the foundation. Also, in the winter, if the water is just going out on the ground you would get ice build up -- is it going ON the ground, or IN the ground? And in the winter, does the drain pipe going out the window freeze up? It just sounds like a really jury- rigged system. I don't think that you necessarily have to give up on this place, but do check everything out before you get in too deep!!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 07, 2000.

Pat, here is the scope of my limited expertise. Well has to be 75 feet away from septic (at least in my state, I would try for further, based on recent experience). Grey/gray water at my house is confined to washer water, and boy doesn't those weeds and grass grow high and faster at that site. Course I am am not growing any food there. Nothing has fell apart in the 11 months. Everything is chance. I had a well dug last year. I asked how long it might last, since I had plunked down 1+k, a voice of human experience said to me "it can last one year, or it can last 100 years". I figure there is no more water there when it ends, then there was, when it began. I could not control it. I once turned down a great buy on a house because I was wound around the axle about a leaking shower pan and the imagined expense involved. A leaking shower pan! What a small piece of the picture! That was a nice house, at a cheap price, I am still bummed . out.

-- Lifes a Box (ofchocol@tes.com), May 07, 2000.

I don't know much about this except for the bank loan thing. We are also in Wisconsin, and in order to borrow the money for our home, we had to put in a new septic system--a mound, which is pretty expensive. We dickered with the previous owners until they agreed to pay for it. I think it was about $8,000. The system they had before was piping it out over the bank and into the creek!

-- Laurie (SUPERGS63@AOL.COM), May 07, 2000.

I need to check to see how far away the well is from the septic. Hadn't thought of that!! Think I'll let it ride a few days, call the realator and see what's going on with other potential buyers. They should be able to get more than I was offering. I didn't want to go into debt! Thanks for all your help!!!!!!! Pat

-- Pat (pmikul@pcpros.net), May 08, 2000.

Pat - check out the responses to the first septic system question. But let's take another tack - the buying process. If you like the place in all other respects, but the septic system has you anxious, make your offer, and dicker to an agreement, "subject to approval of the septic system" Note that that is somewhat precise, but legally vaque. Most would interpret that to mean a blessing by the pump-out guy, possibly the Code enforcement Officer, and that is fine, and you should base your decision, at least in part, on their recommendations. But the bottom line is, you have a legal "out" from the contract, and can get your earnest money back, if even, and only you, do not approve of it. When asked why you don't approve, your answer needn't be more complicated than "Because" or "I don't like where it is!", or "The tank is the wrong color!" GL!

-- Brad (homefixer@mix-net.net), May 08, 2000.

Never having pumped a hand dug septic system is not uncommon. Keep in mind that the sides are rocks and is very pourous and particals can slip through. Newer septic systems are solid sides and they either go out the output pipe or stay.

You will need to check your local codes for sale of a home and if the septic is grand fathered or not. Usually its the well that is tested and must meet code.

As for more flushes and water use why? While you may have kids and such you can still do water managment.

As for spending money upfront, Make it part of the contract. Have the sellers get septic and well approval and roll that back into the sale price.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), May 14, 2000.