For those of you who didn't read the original conversation, FutureShock linked an article about deja vu in another thread, and I e-mailed the author of that article. The article is at:

Three types of Deja Vu.

I've read it once, but I haven't had time to digest what he said. I'll be back to post my thoughts later this evening, and I'm going to e-mail him any responses to this post when we're finished.

From: Art Funkhouser Save Address - Block Sender To: "Laura" Save Address

Subject: My article about dij` vu Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:59:09 -0400 Reply Reply All Forward Delete Previous Next Close

Dear Ms. Logic,

> http://mentalhelp.net/perspectives/articles/art03965.htm > I noticed that article is about 4 years old, and I'm wondering if you > still think epilepsy is unrelated?

What I wrote in the article is that what those suffering from temporal lobe epilepsy experience in their aura might be better termed "dij` senti" which means "already felt". I also urged that we drop the term "dij` vu" altogether in serious discussions since its meaning is far from precise and doesn't even fit the several experiences it is often used to describe. I remain convinced of these points.

Whereas Reed (1972) refers to dij` vu as "false positive recognition", Neppe (1983), in the only book thus far having dij` vu as its main concern, defines it very generally as "any inappropriate impression of familiarity of a present experience with an undefined past" (p. 3) and goes on to postulate *four* subtypes of dij` experience: 1. epileptic (that which occurs in the aura of some attacks of temporal lobe epilepsy), 2. subjective paranormal (characterized by unusual clarity, intensity and often having precognitive aspects), 3. schizophrenic (in which the afflicted individual is convinced that he or she is living through an extended period for the second time), and 4. associative (which tends to be vague and may be the form encountered most often in normal persons) (pp. 27-57). Regarding the schizophrenic subtype, two other terms one encounters in the literature are "reduplicative paramnesia," first proposed by Pick in 1903, and, more recently, "chronophrenia" (Pethv, 1985). Sno (1994) is of the opinion that these four subtypes are not distinct forms but may represent "a continuum of positive and negative misidentification symptoms".

(I'll be happy to supply these references, should someone be interested).

At the time I wrote the article which is posted on the website, I did not know about a paper in which a patient had an ictal event during a EEG recording in which he claimed that he knew the nurse would walk in just at the moment she did, as well as other aspects of what he was living through (Gloor et al., 1982). This is the only time I have encountered someone claiming precognitive knowledge during an epileptic episode and would thus be an example of what I refer to as "dij` vivu" (with the exception of "Quaerens", Dr. John Hughlings Jackson's patient) instead of "dij` senti". Since dij` vicu and possible dij` visiti are quite common in the normal population (and amazingly rare among epileptics!), it makes me wonder if this patient and maybe "Quaerens" had dij` vicu experiences in their auras while most don't. By all reports, as least, what they experienced is very unusual, in any case.

I really, truly wish I could take part in your chat, but I am sure the times would be difficult for me (I live in Europe) and expensive (we are charged by the mnnute for local calls). But if you have any further questions, I'll be happy to see if I can shed any light on them.

OTOH, I would be happy to be part of a list on a listserver, in which such issues are discussed, if that is possible.

I shall be away April 20 to May 2, so if you wish to write again, you should do so right away.

Best wishes,

Dr. A. ("Art") Funkhouser, Bern, Switzerland

atf@alum.mit.edu

PS. I have just submitted a paper entitled "Dreams and Dij` Vu" for the August Parapsychological Association conference to be held in Freiburg, Germany. I am also planning on submitting it for publication.

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 17, 2000

Answers

Funky!!

-- (dejavu@allover.again), April 17, 2000.

Thanks Laura

I too, want to spend more time digesting your link.

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 17, 2000.

How strange. I could swear I've read that somewhere before.

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 17, 2000.

Deja vu is a fun topic and it is interesting to see science applied so it can be dissected for discussion.

I think I have experienced "all of the above", Deja vecu, Deja senti and Deja visite.

I once experienced Dejah Thoris....I thought I was a princess of Barsoom....but no, that couldn't be... because I'm John Carter.

I've even thought I met Laura at a Phoenix swap meet....but it's probably only a figment of my imagination.

Sorry, I need to take a break and come back if I can add something of substance.

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 17, 2000.

To be even more precise, Dr. Funkhouser could drop the french altogether and simply use english words when explaining this phenomenon in english, and use the "dij`-___" when he is explaining it in french.

dij` = already

vu = seen

vicu = lived

senti = felt

visiti = visited

Notice that in french, they don't use "already-seen" in english to talk about this phenomenon. Neither should the Germans or Japaneese for that matter.

-- (making_sense@f.babel), April 17, 2000.

"I've even thought I met Laura at a Phoenix swap meet"

Mister, you really need to learn the difference between dreams and reality!!! :o)

Do you still have that picture of us?

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 17, 2000.

There is another "vu"---presque vu. (almost see); the sense that something is about to happen but we arn't sure what it is.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 17, 2000.

Picture hidden safely in my safty deposit box. With your permission I would like to use it in my forthcoming book to be published in the chinese year 4716....My Musings on My Memoirs of My Millennium Madness.:o>

Another site on deja vu....link

Have I posted this once before?

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 17, 2000.

In your safety deposit box!?!! I guess I'll never be able to talk you into taking it out so I can scan it and send it to Mr Polly now, huh? I can't find mine, and I thought he would get a better idea of what I look like if he saw me in a natural setting. It's no big deal, he's going to love me anyway.

When is the chinese year 4716? Hopefully after I die, so I won't have to read what you honestly think of me? ;o)

CD, I've been meaning all day to tell you that was funny! (It was intended to be funny, wasn't it?)

Hi Lars! This stuff is so new to me, it's making my head hurt! (Oh, I sensed that I was going to say that! :o)

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 17, 2000.

Ay, yi, yi! I'm trying to do way too many things tonight, so I won't be able to respond to Dr. Funkhouser's last e-mail.

However, I just received another e-mail from him, and I thought you might find some of it interesting. (The things I said to him have a ">" before it.

"From: Art Funkhouser Save Address - Block Sender To: "Laura." Save Address Subject: Re: My article about dij` vu Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:25:44 -0400 Reply Reply All Forward Delete Previous Next Close

Dear Laura,

> Thank you so much for the quick reply! It was very gracious of you.

I can be even quicker this time!

> I posted your response in my chatroom about an hour ago, and a > couple of the participants said they want to take some time to digest > your information.

It was quite a bit, wasn't it.

> At any rate, I'll send you our conversations because we don't do this > on a list serve. Our chatroom is FAR more convenient because each > response doesn't have to be opened up individually. I'll send you a > copy of the thread when we get done, or maybe I'll send you a copy > of what's posted daily. (We usually finish with a subject in a day or > two anyway.)

I am quite happy to have a digest and I am very appreciative of your thoughtfulness in providing that to me. Just know that I shall be in England from April 20 to May 2nd and won't be doing any e-mailing during that time.

> "How strange. I could swear I've read that somewhere before. > -- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 17, 2000."

Because I pretty much repeated what I had written in the webpage?

> I'll keep in touch, Doc.

Great. If you have the time to fill me in on who is who and what sort of backgrounds the participants have, that will help me be better oriented in what I read (if such info is available).

> Have a GREAT day.

Thank you. You (and the others), too !!!

Love, joy, peace and wonderful dreams

Art Funkhouser, Bern, Switzerland

atf@alum.mit.edu"

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 17, 2000.

It's to bad the good Dr. is unable to post to this thread. It would spark the thoughts necessary to draw some "thinkers" from the Concept of Time and Astrology threads.

In my academic period (the 50's) I used some of my "electives" to take extra courses in psychology. However I have always considered myself a "jack of all trades and master of none". The only thing I can bring to a deja vu party is a few personal thoughts. I have experienced the feeling on more than one occasion. They would be brief and spontaneous. I had a feeling of being in an altered state of consciousness. While I was not fearful I had a slight "fright" attack such as hair, skin & chill. I have stated before and will state again that I stand in awe at the workings of the brain.

I feel deja vu most often when I'm wandering around in circles.

I understand the movie Matrix has a small scene that explains deja vu.

Laura....just kidding about the safety deposit box...it's (the picture) out back buried with my gold coins in a Folger's can. Even tho you were a polly and I was a doomer, I will share the picture. My book comes out in 2024 at which time I will be 90.

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 17, 2000.

In way of clarification for LL and Dr.Funkhouser...

Yes, my comment; "How strange. I could swear I've read that somewhere before", was nothing more than yet another feable attempt at humor. This does, however, bring to light another form of deja vu which the good Doctor failed to touch on. A form which I have termed "deja maosy" [maosy being the French word for "corny"].

Deja maosy is defined as any inappropriate impression that humor which was acceptable and encouraged years ago in elementary school is suddenly and inexplicably called for. (Quite rare in the normal population. See collected works of Monsieur Jerry Lewis for case study of this phenomenon.)

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 17, 2000.

CD:

I feel that all discussions of heavy topics should be leavened with a little lighthumor. :0)

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 17, 2000.

Dear Mind-Travelers,

I need to state up front that I believe in the scientific method. Period. I believe everything can be proven, or disproved, using this methodeventually. I am of the belief that it will take a very long time to prove thoughts and emotions empirically because space is not the last frontier, our minds are. It's easier to launch a ship into space than it is to get people to stay stationary hooked up to a bunch of electrodes for years simply to catch an ictal/paranormal event on the EEG.

At any rate, it would take me months or years of study to form an educated opinion of this subject. However, since we are friends positing theories and opinions, I'm going to go ahead and give my layperson's analysis based on my very limited research.

Dr. Funkhouser and "Making sense of babel" taught me that there are different kinds of Dij` Vu. After spending some time thinking about the differences between them, Im not at all uncomfortable believing that its neurochemically related. (Or, electrically stimulated, as stated by Robert Carroll in tcs link.:

http://www.skepdic.com/dejavu.html (For Dr. Funkhousers benefit.)

I stated in an earlier thread that I have experienced very mild dij` vu before, and didnt attach any particular meaning to it because I believed it was chemically related. I can assure you this understanding has provided me a great deal of comfort every time it has happened because unlike flora, or other members that said they spend time wondering about it; I dont. I wouldnt be giving this subject a moments thought if Mr Polly and my mom hadnt told me they have had precognitive episodes in the past. Theres no reason for them to lie to me, so Ive had to give the subject a little more consideration so I wouldnt think theyre crazy. :o)

I am now of the opinion that these occurrences happen during some sort of seizure or during an emotional period of time in someones life. Every incidence Ive heard about (or experienced) was during a time that was exciting for the people relaying the experience. Mr Polly had several precognitive events when he was little, and they all were about or during exciting, or life-altering events. My moms have been the same way. Ive been sitting here wondering for the last half hour why theyre never about something ordinary! Maybe people only remember the extraordinary? Hell, I dont know. I have more questions than I have answers but I do know this: Just because I havent experienced something, doesnt mean I dont think other people dont. However, since Im a skeptic about most things, I have to question things I dont experience, and thats when I demand proof. Ive found two cases that no one can give me empirical evidence for, and thats the existence of God, and Dij` vu. I think someday medical science will be able to prove quantitatively what happens when someone is experiencing dij` vu, but until then, Im willing to give all those that experience it my acknowledgement and respect.

CD,

I agree, things we dont understand are corny. I started this subject by saying, When you believe in things you dont understand, you suffersuperstition aint the way. Stevie Wonder.

However, Ive come to learn that just because we (collectively) dont understand things now, doesnt mean we should dismiss them. There was a time people thought the earth was the center of the universe, and patience and research certainly proved that wrong. The quest for understanding should never be dismissed by anyone with a curiosity about a subject. (Although, a little humor thrown in is appreciated. I never felt like you were ridiculing.)

tc,

Zeroforce is going to be in town this weekend, so unless he wants to go to your office, Ill be busy. How about I meet you at work on the 30th to pick it up?

FutureShock,

Do you have anything to add here, or can I mail this off to the good Dr.?

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 18, 2000.

If I were to examine my experiences of deja vu nad tried to find a pattern in them, I think I CAN say that they occur in times of great excitement, stress, or major changes. I was particularly unnerved, as I have said before, in France-I was on my honeymoon, and a few of the events involved all 5 senses; I knew it smelled that way, looked that way, etc. and the words uttered seemed strangely familiar.

I went through a time about 3-4 months ago, when they were occuring so frequesntly that I mentioned to my therapist that I thought I might be mad! But at the same time I was absolutely certain that I was accessing experiences that I have gone through before.

It has been part of my intuitive sense that the moment of my death will be very, very familiar. I am certainly open to a purely biochemical explanation to all this-but I am not sure that I can call anything I experience in the realm called consciousness "purely biochemical".

Our perceptual apparatus filter out a staggering portion of reality. Our eyes can only see so much and our ears can only hear things within certain wavelengths. There are so many things of which we are not aware; I have heard it argued that our perceptual filters are evolutionary and protect us from too much stimuli.

I will admit that many years ago I experimented with psychedelic drugs-I will not relay a detailed account, but It did cause me to questions exactly what reality was.

I would say that "reality" is an agreed upon concept. That societies in whole and in part, agree that a tree is tree, a donut is a donut, and cops like to eat donuts! However, every single human being has a different version of reality. I remember from studying human communications the idea that "1 will never equal 1"; that no two people can understand EXACTLY what the other means. Language is limited-so therefore all of us are struggling to agree, more or less, on what is "real".

Science does probably the best job at determining what is "real". But even those truths are often debunked.

We live in a world of eternal mysteries, wonderous mysteries, and many times I prefer not to have the answers-It is a trip to live in the questions. I do believe that my deja vu is real-that I have experienced all of this before. But of course we may never know.

The study of the nature of human consciousness is unique in that it is the subject studying the subject! Human consciousness can not really get out of itself to look at itself, like a scientist can study fruit flies. Because of this, studies into human consciousness (dreams, paranormal, etc) will always come up short. To wit, I believe that there is an evolutionary, directional aspect to human consciousness-the goal of completely replicating itself outside of itself.

Stayed tuned to the artificial intelligence field.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 18, 2000.