Hello! Pertaining to Epi on April 13th. Just was curious if there was anything in particular why Carter looked at the clock and it said 2:15, besides that it was very late at night. I thought maybe if it had something to do with his attack or something. Or maybe that he couldn't sleep (obviously) and that has something to do with his "supposedly" bipolar problem or what. Let me know if anyone else can speculate.

Also, it was very nice to hear Lucy's name being mentioned, and that it just wasn't forgotten. Maybe now they will put some kind of conclusion on the whole incident. Although, I do really feel that this will be carried on into next season. What am I going to do until then? I can barely stand it knowing I have to wait two weeks for the next new episode!! :^D

-- Paula (pbranden@dwave.net), April 13, 2000

Answers

Well 2:15 am is only 41 minutes from when Lucy died (2:56). Did anyone else notice that Carter was asked to take care of an "altered mental state" patient - kinda like Paul was?

-- Shauna (shauna_h16@yahoo.com), April 13, 2000.

It is obvious that he does have a problem or, fear may be the correct word, when it comes to a patient being somewhat uncontrollable. I guess I missed the part that he had to take care of a "altered mental state" patient. I think they are really leading up to something, but I just wish they would just get to the point and be done with it. Hate waiting around.

-- Paula (pbranden@dwave.net), April 13, 2000.

I just think that it's the fact that he can't get sleep because he's *tormented* by the attack, etc. It's early in the morning, he looked exhausted, he looked like hell-- I think that gets the point across. Although it would've been nice if he looked up and saw 2:56-- but maybe that would've been too coincidental. Loved the Carter storyline so far-- Wyle played him well.

-- samira (matb_west@chickmail.com), April 13, 2000.

Paula - the "altered mental state" patient I think was Pablo?? At least it would make sense, since Pablo is the recurring homeless/alcoholic patient who is often disoriented and confused. You will remember that Carter tried a few times (in an increasingly loud and irritated voice) to ascertain whether Pablo had had anything to eat or drink recently. Then when Pablo accidentally knocked the tray, Carter went nuts and went for the restraints and the Haldol.

Maybe Carter overreacted because he realized that if he had done this to Paul Sobricki when Paul was thrashing about during the spinal tap, he (Carter) would be fine and Lucy would still be alive. Or maybe it was fear of "another" possibly violent and disoriented patient that was driving him. This would explain his ferocious intensity and anger during this sequence.

-- Emma2 (bmgal@total.net), April 13, 2000.

I don't think the 2:15 had any special significance. I guess they were just trying to point out that he couldn't sleep. It was interesting to see his over-reaction to Pablo, just like he had done with that patient a few episodes ago - he asked for restraints!

-- Melanie (msintn@hotmail.com), April 14, 2000.

Yes, the 2:15 was just to show up not able to sleep. Maybe his self-medicating will have to do with that, rather than painkillers. I liked the Carol and Carter scene. It was obvious that Carter was calmed down from his bad day, so I'm sure he treated everyone (including Chen) nicer. Anyhow, I thought it was touching when Carter sat down on the examining table/bench/whatever it was... as if he were saying, "I'm a patient, please make me well because I have a problem" to Carol. But jeez - Carol going "What's the matter with you" I mean, DUH! I thought the advice she was giving to Carter was kind of shallow and generic. (am I the only one who can't wait until Miss So-called Compassionate Baby-Loving Earth Mother leaves?) But it was very sad at the end of the scene too where all she could say was "Keep working" or "Go back to work" or whatever - you could see by the look on his face that Carter expected something more and that it wasn't what he wanted or needed to hear. Also - the last scene where he was at Gamma's - I'm getting the sense that Carter is not getting what he needs there, either (from his grandparents) - their life seems to be going on as normal, with their parties (mentioned in the other ep) and Carter gets up in the middle of the night and who comes? Not Gamma, but the maid (or cook?) I think the fact that Lucy would have been assigned to County is what is going to eat at Carter from now on... thinking of what might have been with Lucy's career.

-- debbie (riccardoiii@aol.com), April 14, 2000.

I thought that they showed the clock being at 2:15 was extremely significant. I think it was obvious that Carter couldn't get sleep and it was the middle of the night. They didn't have to show the clock to get that point across. I think they meant to convey that Carter was extremely aware that it was approaching 2:52, the time Lucy died. I really do think the time was meant to be significant in that regards, especially since Lucy was clearly on his mind that day.

-- L (bearcatiscool@yahoo.com), April 14, 2000.

Debbie,

I completely agree with you. I can't wait for Carol and her superior attitude and her nonsense to leave the show. Last night's conversation was a perfect example. Here is something that many people on this discussion board have been asking for; a scene between Carol and Carter "dealing" with the attack and the death of Lucy.

The simple fact that she DARED to compare her free-will decision to stay in Chicago and raise the babies on her own with the vicious attack on Carter and the death of Lucy at the hands of a patient really gets my hackles up. And her "advice"; Carter could have gotten a more empathetic response from Romano.

And let's not forget that, ONCE AGAIN, the entire conversation was precipitated by Carol refusing to follow the orders of a doctor. She should be unceremoniously fired. When I think about how people (Carol included) tiptoed around Mark for months and kept him away whenever possible from agitated patients after he was beat up (not stabbed) and then I look at this holier-than-thou nurse refusing to take a doctor's orders and put the restraints on the patient and asking the doctor in a loud voice "What's the matter with you?" I'd like to hand her her pink slip myself.

Let's face facts here, folks....when the doctor gives an order, the nurse follows it....or she gets canned and a nurse who will follow orders will replace her.

-- Don (dgow@excite.com), April 14, 2000.

Don, I agree with you about the nurse having to follow the doctor's orders. After all, it's not like he asked her to do something illegal. The patient was clearly agitated, and I think Carter was right to ask for restraints. I mentioned on one of the other threads that I was happy that Carol talked to Carter. I think the reason I was glad was because someone was finally acknowleding that he is not right. I agree with those who say that it was ridiculous for her to compare her situation to Carter's. There is absolutely no comparison. Actually, I liked it when Kerry talked to him much better. I think that she is the only one who has shown him any true compassion since he came back. That is really sad, too, since he has known most of them for years. I think it would be nice if Elizabeth and Mark talked with him. Elizabeth seemed to acknowledge his pain when she offered to handle the letter for Lucy. I hope for something more. Mark should also be able to relate to him, though I can understand that he is preoccupied with his dad right now.

-- Katrina (cattrek@ga.freei.net), April 14, 2000.

Well I agree with most of what people are saying, except I do like Carol and even though I wish she had said more than "You go back to work", I think she thought right now was the only way to deal with him. If you look at how Kerry tried to talk to him, he got defensive, whereas with Carol, she took a friendly, "Hold on Carter...am I overreacting to your overreacting...I think you've still got to deal with this" (these are not directly in order of context!) I expected her to compare her suicide attempt, as far off as that may be now, but I think the writers preferred for her to bring Doug up now. Yes, I wanted more from the talk, but I enjoyed her obvious wanting to keep him there to talk to him and his obvious sitting down on the gurney to talk. I think before she leaves they will have another talk, because apparently, he is only getting worse.

-- Elaine (mrsclooney78@hotmail.com), April 14, 2000.

Actually I don't think the writers could have handled it any other way. It was realistic and the scene served a purpose -- explaining to us that the ER staff is not totally insensitive, but they can't really know what Carter has been through (near death experience, losing his student whom he had an ambivalent relationship to). The undercurrent of the scene was that Carol meant well, but was too distracted with her own problems and the advice she gave wasn't quite enough for Carter. It could have been any character doing that... it's just that, personally I think Carol has become a bore. I don't know why people make such a big deal over her departure. When she is gone there will be so much more room for other, more compelling characters and storylines.

-- debbie (riccardoiii@aol.com), April 14, 2000.

I've been looking at other boards and someone mentioned that the clock said 2:14 A.M.As in 2/14 or Valentines Day,when he was stabbed and Lucy died.

-- Kasha (kasha_f@yahoo.com), April 14, 2000.

I don't remember Pablo from any previous episodes except one (because I watched it about 10 times). In the episode where Lucy died (the name escapes me), at the very beginning, Kerry is going to see the Cupid who twisted his ankle. On her way down the hall, Hilay (sp) is taking Pablo to get a shower and Kerry asks how he is and he says they took his stuff, he got deported, etc. This is right before Kerry goes into Exam 3 and finds Lucy and Carter. Now I know Carter wouldn't have known this, but it kinda freaked me out cuz it brought back those memories. Anybody else?

Hey, and I just thought of this: Pablo is Spanish for Paul (Sobricki), no? And Carter thought he needed restraints....Chills!!

-- Carla (chloe4293@netscape.net), April 14, 2000.

Folks, PLEASE! Don't you think you are over-analyzing this just a TAD? The writers are more interested in creating believable dramatic situations, not putting in minute little clues. Pablo was a recurring character long before anyone ever heard of Paul Sobricki... he was used in the scene because he was well-known to the staff as being gentle and harmless, hence it being odd that Carter would treat him as if he were dangerous. The name "Pablo" has nothing to do with it... And come on, the "2:14" - "2/14" connection is just really, really stretching it...

-- debbie (riccardoiii@aol.com), April 14, 2000.

Does Carter even know the exact time of Lucys death????????

-- Ina (ifelsch@yahoo.com), April 14, 2000.

Debbie, we're just having fun. Sometimes there are interesting tidbits to dissect. :)

-- Carla (chloe4293@netscape.net), April 14, 2000.

The first time I remember Pablo was in season 4 when he kept asking for Haleah, and Carol kept on telling him that it was her day off. Then when she finally takes care of him, she asks him if he would go to a 'free clinic' (meaning her clinic). So that was the beginning of season four. Kinda scary that I remember that. :)

-- Kimmy (swiss_cheesed1953@yahoo.com), April 14, 2000.

Carla, I agree with you! < Debbie, we are all just having fun. You made another comment in another thread how we are all over reacting and what not. If you don't want to play nice, please don't play at all. > Sorry for sounding rude. :-)

-- Paula (pbranden@dwave.net), April 14, 2000.

Hi, I've read over most of the posts about the Carter story line and its developments up through the 4/13 episode. I just have to say that I don't get the feeling like the writers are really setting up any big dramatic situation with Carter, whether it be bi-polar disorder, self medication for pain (his character barely seems to be displaying any physical pain, anyway), self-medication for sleeplessness/post- traumatic syndrome, or anything else for that matter. It just seems like the whole situation has been skimmed over, and not enough emphasis has been put on any of the aftermath of something HUGE like this. It almost seems to me like they've forgotten they're own story line, unless this is REALLY the calm before the storm. Anyone else? Thanks, Michele

-- MicheleB (kpminc@aol.com), April 14, 2000.

Kasha, the 2:14 (am), 2/14 (date) connection seemed a possibility for me. I've noticed that I tend to look at the clock at the date that shows my birthday a lot, which really stands out on a digital reading. Ina, I think Carter would know the time of death for Lucy. I think he'd have pulled her record and read it over and over when no one was watching...which no one is obviously!

-- Diana (dilynne@juno.com), April 14, 2000.

Most everyone seems to have a negative opinion of Carol comparing her experience with Carter's. But I believe she wasn't talking completely about her family situation. I think she was also talking about her attempted suicide. Remember that people? She probably doesn't want to bring it up in the wide open, Carol's not like that, but she wanted to let Carter know that she's been through a near- death (even closer to death) experience than Carter.

She did have a life altering experience. Now granted, it was of her own doing, but still the "one day at a time" remark was probably thinking about that.

-- AmyE (roamyn@aol.com), April 14, 2000.

MicheleB, I know what you mean. However I think that they might be leading to something with Carter, but their approach is slow. The eps following the attack have shown us a different Carter. He is more uptight and short with people. Not like the happy-go-lucky Carter we are use to seeing.

I just don't like the way everyone else is treating him like he's back to normal. And the scenes like with Dr. Chen... if the nurses always seem to know or discuss whats going on (like gossip?) why hasn't anyone else besides Carol noticed or made a comment ... even a little one?

-- Yvette (Frazzzld@aol.com), April 15, 2000.

Yvette, that is a great idea...the nurses do always know what's going on and it would fit to have them talking (with concerned intentions, of course) one day when Carter flips out in front of them. A confrontation with the staff and Carter could be good, if it was done just right. Maybe that will happen on the season finale. It would bring everyone together again. Maybe way after Carter gets better, there will be a scene of appreciation and acknowledgment of friendship from Carter (like with Carol @ her "wedding reception", and with Mark at the ER banquet a long time after the attack). Of course, first, there needs to be some help for Carter to appreciate!

-- Elaine (mrsclooney78@hotmail.com), April 15, 2000.

carer might be having mood swings due to the pain meds he is taking, isnt that one of the side effects? did anyone notice, than after one of his "fits", when he threw the gloves, (or whatever he threw) that he winced, like in pain? maybe he is trying not to take the polls, because he doesnt want to become addicted, or he feels he is already becoming addicted? he seems to still be in pain. could this inner conflict be causing those mood swings? or a combo of that plus Post traumatic? any thoughts here?

-- Alexis (lexicat1@webtv.net), April 15, 2000.

Okay, I just read Alexis's comment too, and I just wanted to point out that when Pablo came in, he winced while he and Carol were getting him up onto the gurney, and then he walked around and sighed as if really worn out. I am thinking it is kind of late to bring the pain killer plot into this, but he *is* still in pain. All I can say, is I would have *loved* to have come in and comforted him @ 2 in the morning (I am way too old to be making comments like that, but he looked so cute in his sweat pants and Chicago Bulls shirt...he looked so much younger) He needs a hug.

-- Elaine (mrsclooney78@hotmail.com), April 15, 2000.

I don't know people! I really don't see any pain from Carter other than, sleeplessness, and frustration. I DO think they are leading up to something, unfortunately they are making it a slow process. But definately something. Otherwise they wouldn't be making him look so angry and frustrated all the time. Even when he was sitting at the front desk, when that doctor came to see him about the wrong lab test for the patient, he was showing some kind of stress, rubbing his forhead and all. I have this feeling that it will be some kind of post tramatic syndrome or plain old guilt and depression, but the idea of what the tabloid said, well, I think the self medication thing can be thrown right out the door along with the Star tabloid! :^D Poor Carter, I just wish I could jump right into T.V. land and give him one, big gigantic hug!

-- Paula (pbranden@dwave.net), April 15, 2000.

Hello, it is me! Did the tabloid suggest self medication or was it Wyle on the Rosie show??? I don't want to bash something, if the facts are twisted. :-)

-- Paula (pbranden@dwave.net), April 15, 2000.

OK, Read the replies, and I guess you're right-they must be leading up to something, with Carter, but I guess I am not use to this much subtlety (sp?). I think that a lot more of ER's (and other dramas, for that matter) have made these plot lines a lot more 'in your face' sort of style. I guess that, on television, subtle innuendos and such just don't come across as clearly. I didn't even notice some of the little winces and sighs, and signs of frustration. I'm not saying that I don't try to be observant, it's just hard when you know you only have about 45 minutes of porgram to pick up on all this stuff. I'll try harder to pick up on this stuff next epi, maybe even break down and record it (I've had this thing about not recording the show, I want to try to absorb this stuff on the first go-around, kind of like real life-goofy, huh?). Thanks all, Michele

-- Michele (KPMINC@AOL.COM), April 15, 2000.

paula, i have seen carter wince in pain. several times since he has been back to work. ok? others have posted that they have seen it too. its not all that obvious, he doesnt say "ouch" or anything, but he is in pain.

-- Alexis (lexicat1@webtv.net), April 16, 2000.

I thought we saw a little of the old compassionate Carter when he was dealing with Mr. Fazio (when he thought he was the one with leukemia)...

-- debbie (riccardoiii@aol.com), April 16, 2000.

To add to what Alexis just said above... Carter has been limping which tells me he is still in some discomfort. However, he is dealing with it and not playing the sympathy card by whining about it to others. IMO :)

-- Yvette (Frazzzld@aol.com), April 16, 2000.

Okay, I watched the epi again, (after my child went to sleep, so no interruptions), and really watched it, and I was wrong. I guess I do see some physical pain from Carter. At first when he helped Pablo, I thought maybe he was making that face because Pablo smelled so bad, from dirtiness and booze, but I can see that it could be from physical pain. I think it is definately both, though, physical and emotional pain.

-- Paula (pbranden@dwave.net), April 16, 2000.

Yeah Debbie, I noticed him with Mr. Fazio too...how he said "I have no doubt you're in pain", or something like that. It was very cute. I taped the episode from last night on the WB channel because I was out, and it was the one where Carter is befriending Mr. Ruby, the husband of a dying old woman and he gives him his beeper number so Ruby calls him in the middle of the night. He was very compassionate, I really like that Carter is considered the "people- person" doctor.

-- Elaine (mrsclooney78@hotmail.com), April 16, 2000.

Elaine, I saw that one last night too. I liked it when Mr. Ruby said to Carter something about being the "only doctor who really gives a damn". That was a good one.

-- Yvette (Frazzzld@aol.com), April 16, 2000.

IMO, I'd say that it appears Carter is definitely going through some 'pain,' though it isn't solely physical. Did anyone else think that his reactions overall are somewhat flat, except when he 'overreacted'? I first noticed it when he was saying how he couldn't get his labs. Relatively unemotional, resigned, whatever.

At least, that's how it felt to me, as someone who's gone through a depression in real life herself. You get so you can't care much about anything around you, everything loses color etc... I got that feeling watching him through this episode. Even in his chat with Carol and later in the kitchen, he just seemed tired, whipped, lost.

-- Meli (meli@springmail.com), April 17, 2000.