God and the Holocaust (or "Let's get down to the REAL question here"

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I've been reading all of the threads concerning the Christianity of Hitler, or lack thereof. What strikes me is that no one has asked the obvious question: If the Christians are correct, and there is an omnipotent, compassionate god, then how was the Holocaust allowed to happen in the first place?

Occam's Razor teaches us to not search for a complicated reason when a simple one is available ("Do not multiply entities unnecessarily"). Since the Holocaust, theologians have had to go through major contortions to hold on to the traditional image of God in the light of the events at Auschwitz, Dachau, Bergen Belsen, and indeed, all over Europe. There are only two possibilities, if one believes in God at all: either God caused (or at least permitted) the destruction of the Jews, the Gypsies and the other victims, or God does not care. The first approach is unacceptable, because it means that entire groups of people may be indicted based on race or other identity, which makes God out to be a mass murderer. On the other hand, if God does not care, why believe in Him? An uncaring God is either cruel and negligent, or, unaware of humans and their plight, which is contrary to the Biblical idea of God as a being who intervenes in human history.

Most folks probably refuse to think too deeply about either possibility, and simply don't examine their faith in the context of the Holocaust. When it does come up they might write it off as part of a mysterious and unknowable "plan", but this explanation begs the question of what that plan might be. Can a god who's ultimate plan calls for the torture and murder of well over 6 million people be a being who is worthy of worship?

The simplest explanation for the Holocuast is that there is no God to intervene in human affairs. No deity exists to care what we do to each other. All compassion and all hatred in the human universe is ours. Truly we are on our own.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 26, 2000

Answers

Roberta, your statement makes me feel very sad. I too was very confused about God's intentions until I became a Chrisitian. This is what I understand...and if you speak of the God of the Bible this must be included........sin has been let loose in the world. God did not do this, man did. God gave man free will and the ability to choose. God did not want robots. Man was specially endowed with gift of free will so man could choose to obey and love God or go his own way. Man chose to go his own way. This rebellion against God is called sin. Sin begets sin.... but as Jesus said, woe unto he that causes it.

God is with you if you want Him to be. He will walk through the fire with you and stand at the gallows with you. And all the evil that man causes God will work to good for those who love Him.But He is a perfect gentleman. If you don't want him in your life he won't bother you.

I would like to hear from FYI or anyone else about why God "allowed" the holocaust. Then I will respond.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 26, 2000.


God is supposed to be an omnipotent being who cares about humans. He has a long and spectacular history of intervening to save innocent people. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (sp?) over sins and excesses that didn't come close to approaching those of the Nazis, and yet he allowed the Nazis to flourish for more than ten years. Why?

Why weren't the prayers of the people in the camp good enough for God to come to their rescue? Were they not humble enough to warrrant His attention?

What about all the Nazis who got away with it? By what criteria did God allow them to live long, comfortable lives and get away with the murders of innocent men, women, and children? Is God outraged by only some innocent blood? Or was it by some "divine plan" that the Nazis killed only people who deserved it.

According to the Bible, Moses was used by God to save his people from slavery to the Egyptians. The torment they supposedly suffered there didn't even come close to the torment they suffered from the Nazis. Why didn't God raise up a savior from Auschwitz? Where were the miracles in Bergen Belsen? Why didn't God cause the gates to open at Dachau?

I'd like to meet this God of yours, Nancy. If He exists at all, He obviously needs a good swift kick in the balls.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 26, 2000.


Roberta,

Do not torment yourself over questions of God.

Christians feel that they understand that which is not understandable, and judge others although they say that they should not do so, lest they be judged. Doesn't seem to stop them as far as I can see.

Rather than worry about God and what is his agenda, live a good life, and set an example by your works towards others.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), March 26, 2000.


Roberta, it was not in God's plan for anyone to suffer.

Sin has been let loose in world. God did not do this. Man did.

I don't know which was more sinful in God's eyes, Sodom $Gomorrah or Nazi Germany. Hitler was totally evil, but Stalin killed far more people than Hitler, and Mao killed more than the 2 of them put together. So how do you grade evil? I don't presume to know.

Evil is allowed to happen because this is the course we chose. And when we chose this course we gave power to Satan. We gave him the lease to this planet.

Just as God has people on earth who choose to follow Him, Satan also has people on earth who choose to follow him.

Will be right back....emergency.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 26, 2000.


Roberta Ingersoll:

Please be wary of entering a theological discussion of the tenets of Christianity. Read St. Thomas Aquinas first, before you enter too far into these waters. You cannot possibly be clever enough to offer a new objection to Christianity that has not already been brought forward and debated for several hundred years, if not a full millenium, already.

My point is not that you are wrong to question the authority of the Bible or the logic of Christian apologists, only that the Christians have been at this for 2000 years (give or take) and have answers to every jot and tittle you could possibly bring to the debate. They built many of their techniques on Greek philosophy and logic and are very adept. These answers may or may not satisfy you. But they are fully developed and very sophisticated.

It is a matter of faith. Keep yours. But don't argue in the belief you have more answers than the Christians do. They have answers to suit all occassions. Often very good ones, provided you accept a few unprovable premises. Don't get smug, though. Some of your premises are unprovable, too. They just seem more believable to you.

I say all this a non-Christian, myself. I cannot accept the resurrection. As such, I cannot be a Christian. But I don't underestimate the tradition. Fully 40% of the best minds of Europe and the European colonies in the past 1800 years were devoted to development of the Christian tradition. Tread carefully.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), March 26, 2000.



Roberta-

Whether you know it or not, you have stumbled into the greatest challenge of modern theology. It's easy to blow past bad things that happen to small groups of good people, but how do you deal with horrible things that happen to huge groups of good people? The mind reels.

Because the Holocaust is such a painful topic, people deal with it in different ways. In my opinion, the Holocaust Denial movement stems from an attempt to reconcile a good god with a horrible event; it's easier to believe the Holocaust never happened than it is to accept that God either tacitly endorsed the mass destruction of His "chosen people" or doesn't exist in the first place. As you astutely observed, many people avoid thinking of God's involvement in the Holocaust altogether. Just look at the responses you've gotten on this thread so far, saying in essence, "I used to wonder about that, too, until I stopped," and the other saying, "Just forget about it, and go back to sleep,"

As a Jew, and a child of the Holocaust, I have met several Holocaust survivors. I can tell you that many Holocaust survivors simply don't believe in God anymore, at least not in the traditional sense. Many cling to the traditions but their experiences have forced them to come to the same conclusions you have. They simply don't have the luxury of ignoring the Holocaust and God's involvement.

I must say, I agree with your assesment of the problem of God's culpability. It is not only the simplest explanation, but ultimately, the least disturbing one.

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.co), March 27, 2000.


Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? God doesn't cause it; God doesn't prevent it. For reasons of His own, God allows it. Don't rage against the unknowable. Yes, do your best to prevent suffering and injustice but accept what is beyond your control and beyond your ken. For me, that is humility; for me, that is faith.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), March 27, 2000.

A faith that can't stand examination is not worthy of being held.

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 27, 2000.

...or, as so aptly put in a StarTrek movie... "Excuse, me...why does God need a StarShip?" Think about it.

-- Calm (AmidstThe@Storm.com), March 27, 2000.

By definition, faith transcends examination.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), March 27, 2000.


You are speaking from the wrong context. You can only understand the spiritual from a totally spirituyal context. To try to understand or explain it from any other context is impossible. It's like an English speaker trying to shout louder in English to explain to someone who only speaks Swahili. This is not a matter for logical argument, but a question of two entirely different domains.

You can't ask about God and about human suffering at one and the same time because they don't exist together.

But, let's say they do exist together. If this were the case, then suffering is irrelevant anyway as the only thing of concern in a domain in which God exists is spiritual development.

There will be suffering for the human body and personality without a doubt in any event. To think that because we are not tortured, starved, and shot, that we don't suffer is ridiculous. Of course the human body and personality suffer at all times and in all places. The holocaust is a magnification and illumination of that fact.

Then what is going on here? What is going on is a spiritual process and not a material one. There is no conflict between GOd and suffering. The only "problem" is the limit to our understanding. God not only exists, but only God exists.

-- Mara (MW@aol.com), March 27, 2000.


This analogy may seem a bit of a stretch, but here goes nothing...

Small children don't want to get shots or go to the dentist because they see the immediate pain, but don't recognize the long-term benefits of the actions that their parents do for them. While we adults here on Earth view all these events (such as Hitler's, Stalin's etc.) as tragedies, when compared to an ETERNAL lifetime, all of these human events really last less than a heartbeat in duration.

Maybe what we consider to be terrible tragedies ARE tragedies to us, but in the greater scheme of things are not really important. Like children afraid of taking our medicine, we just can't see the big picture.

For me, the existance of evil is not a reason to give up faith, rather it is the reason to HAVE it.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 27, 2000.


god is not obligated to answer our questions, as he made clear to job. especially when they are posed by someone who doesn't want to know him, but simply to blame him or prove he doesn't exist. why is it the non-believing world likes to blame god for all the atrocities of humans (and yes, satan)--yet give him none of the credit for the good things or the daily miracles of an amazing creation?

roberta, this argument goes nowhere--since those of you that like to blame the holocaust on the christians (many of whom died protecting jews) don't really listen to any truth that is presented to you. plus, the pope, with all of his apologies, is an old, well-meaning, misguided human being that seems to think he speaks for the "true church"--he may speak for the "official" catholic church but he surely doesn't speak for me. look what dissention his words have caused.

for all our big talk of "giving god a piece of our mind", the bible shows that in every incident where someone encountered"the angel of the lord" (christ) or god himself--they basically were completely overcome. you will find out soon enough when you face him someday that there is a god and you had your opportunity to humble yourself and believe. yet, notice he doesn't force you to believe--the same way he doesn't force people to play nicely (e.g., Hitler). he will allow "choice" and rebellion to run its full course before he returns to redeem his creation back to himself. then those who either hate god or don't choose to believe in him, can live outside of god's presence for eternity.

you say there is no god? well, maybe you haven't met him, but i sure have and he seems more beautiful and incredible to me each day inspite of my sometimes unanswered questions. personally, i am looking forward to spending eternity with him.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), March 27, 2000.


Uncle Deedah, you got it right. All this rhetoric is simply grasping to understand the unknown and unknowable. Apparently we weren't meant to know. All you have to do is read Ecclesiastes, translated from the original languages, in The New Oxford Annotated Bible, to understand that.

And if it makes Christians feel better to believe in God, that's fine, but just because they don't agree with those of us who either don't believe, or find God unknown and unknowable, doesn't mean they should badger us with proselytizing and witnessing.

For me, the unexamined life isn't worth living. And I think laying a load of sin and guilt on young people is one of the worst sins of all. Of course this is how to draw them to God. First, you tell them they are born sinners, then you scare the hell out of them to make them fear going to a burning hell if they don't believe. Once they repent of those dubious sins, they will be under the sheltering protection of God from then on. Emotional Blackmail of the worst sort.

I hear people say all the time after surviving a car wreck or tornado, "God saved me!!" Well, I' m not a Christian and survived a serious auto accident, (new car totalled) with not a scratch; only tore my stockings climbing up the bank, so all I can say is if there is a God, he likes sinners. Actually, it was just the luck of the draw.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 27, 2000.


Perhaps God is not omnipotent.

He just does his best.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), March 27, 2000.



Frank, then you are saying is that what happens in this life is really unimportant in the big picture, and that eternal life is all that matters. Well, I intend to enjoy this life and not worry about eternal life, which doesn't sound so hot to me anyway.

tt, since I don't believe in a Christian God, although I don't discount the possibility of a higher power of some sort, an unknown and unknowable and unjudgemental force. As far as "humbling myself" or trying to "redeem myself," I guess I'll just have to go with "living outside his presence for eternity," for I will not be blackmailed by Gods or mortal men. ( What kind of a deal is that? Hey dude, you didn't believe, so now you're toast.) I didn't really ask to be here, you know.

Also, here's what disgusts me about religion. tt, you call the pope, an "old, well-meaning, misguided human being that seems to think he speaks for the "true church." This is the essence of religion, this "ours is the one true faith" crap, those other faiths are misguided. I'm not defending the pope, because he's just more of the same ilk, but it has an ring of exclusiveness, like *you must belong to the right club*.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 27, 2000.


Gilda said:

>>I didn't really ask to be here, you know.

It doesn't appear you're in any hurry to make any sudden change to 'remedy' that situation though .

I'm glad you're still here.

Nice to see you participating in these discussions :).

Have a wonderfully blessed week!

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), March 27, 2000.


"For me, the unexamined life isn't worth living. And I think laying a load of sin and guilt on young people is one of the worst sins of all. Of course this is how to draw them to God. First, you tell them they are born sinners, then you scare the hell out of them to make them fear going to a burning hell if they don't believe. Once they repent of those dubious sins, they will be under the sheltering protection of God from then on. Emotional Blackmail of the worst sort." -gilda

Perhaps if many of our soul-less youth had the ability to feel guilt we wouldn't be seeing so many heinous crimes committed without apparent remorse. Guilt is not a bad thing. Without it the conscience is a void. Sadly, the absence of any type of "Godly" religion is turning some into the walking dead. Hedonism and the "moment" prevail. There are probably other factors at work but I believe the absence of religion in these lives is a contributing factor.

-- Outta beer (East of the smoke stack@usa.here), March 27, 2000.


Gilda,

You have all the facts but have settled on a less than satisfactory conclusion.

God hates Sin but loves all sinners. He hates the behavior but loves each and every person. In His eyes, all humans of all nations of all creeds, religions and denominations including atheists are sinful as part of our human nature and the Fall from Grace in Eden. The penality for sin is death.

Through Christ, the body may die but the soul is eternal. By God's Grace and God's Grace alone, Christ paid the price for all sinners everywhere and in everytime. John 3:16.

Christ's teachings show that His salvation is open to all, no one is excluded, all are welcome. The fact that there are many denominations may be due to man's human/sinful nature where each lays claim to the Truth and denies that others have the Truth. When in reality the Truth is open and free to all. One benefit of multiple denominations is that by having several horses in the race there is an improved probaility that one of them will finish the race ie preserve the Truth.

Re: The Holocaust and other mass murders of humanity.

Murder is prohibited by God in the Ten Commandments, so clearly the murder of one or one million is an act against God. It is an act by the leaders of the nations, the followers of the leaders, and other nations that did not effectively try to stop it.

Why did God not intervene and stop it Himself is a rhetorical question that presupposes the mind and plan of God which is beyond human understanding.

The Bible is clear that in the End Times there will be a Judgement where all people are held accountable for their actions and the actions of their forefathers. Only through Jesus does the Bible say that one may be forgiven.

If Hitler was a Christian did he repent and thereby gain eternal life? I doubt this. Hitler died by most accounts of a self inflicted suicide as unrepentant and to avoid being captured by the Russians for fear they would treat him like he treated his enemies. So it would appear he got his just punishment.

I could go on about the Absolute over the relativisitic; the knowledge of Good versus Evil; or a Godly worldview in preference over a self centered one etc but lack the time at the moment. A good place to start is the Bible; did you know that over 25% of the Bible contains prophetic claims that are as yet unfulfilled. Much of it speaks to the return of Christ to Earth as the Second Coming or in the Old testament Jewish faith the coming of the Messiah or God returning to Earth.

-- A Watcher (God@Heaven.Peace), March 27, 2000.


I don't want to step on anyone's beliefs, but Outta Beer, there are all kinds of sources of guilt. If you honor someone, you feel guilty if you neglect or dismiss that person, even if you don't share the belief system of a "Godly religion." Forgive me if I misquoted you on that one.

Gilda:

That was a shabby one-liner about the "I didn't ask to be here." Would you have said that to your mother?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.


Excuse me! I never studied philosophy, or Aquinas. Studied some Aristoltle. Primarily I study the King James Bible. You cannot invent, manufacture or artificially teach the Chrisitian thought process. It is learned from reading the Bible. It is in you or it is not.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 27, 2000.


Roberta and FYI, this is what New Testament prophecy says about the Jews. The Messiah will return but not till the last Jew calls for Him and asks for His return. This event will occur when the whole world is standing against Israel. Many will be dead. The odds will appear insurmountable. There will be no hope......no hope.....till the Jews, one by one, turn to the Messiah and ask for Him. When the last Jew calls for the Messiah, He will return.

Satan knows the scripture. He knows that the Jews were chosen to teach God's word. He knows that the Messiah will return when the Jews ask for Him....and satan knows that his time on earth will then be done.What satan doesn't know is when.....WHEN....that will be.

So satan prepares himself by getting his people into key positions every generation, every century. His aim is to keep that last Jew from calling out for Messiah.....or better yet, eliminate them all together. If the Jews do not call for the Messiah, Messiah cannot come.

But the Jews will survive to the end, by supranatural protection. Jews have been mercilessly hounded over the centuries by satan. We Christians have just been grafted on to the true vine. It is you who bring the Messiah back.

I can understand how you may feel betrayed by God, but exactly the opposite is true. He wants you to call out for Him.

I hope this makes sense to you. You are a major part of Gods plan and if you let satan's attacks diminish your love for God then satan wins.

God Bless, nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 27, 2000.


Just one more thing and I'm done. All those claiming that Christians are so "sensitive" when satans followers identify themsevles as Chrisitians...did you ever ask yourself why it is that an evil person will always claim to be a Christian. Never does he/she claim to be a Buddist, or a Hindu or even a Moslem. Always the claim is to be a Christian. Now why do you suppose that is ?

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 27, 2000.


gilda...go for it. that is why we have free choice. as for me, i happen to believe in the bible and its truth and will take it in its entirety. who am i to pick and choose what aspects of the bible i will follow or believe in? who am i to tell god what he ought to accept/not accept? he stated it pretty clearly in the bible--christ is the only way and NO ONE comes to the father but through him. now that i have accepted that, he has proceeded to show me more about himself so that i am fully persuaded and would honestly be willing to die for those beliefs. certainly, some of the "truth" is really painful to accept because it puts me out of my comfort zone but again, who am i to tell the creator of the universe how things "ought to be"?

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), March 27, 2000.

Gilda, you said,

"Frank, then you are saying is that what happens in this life is really unimportant in the big picture, and that eternal life is all that matters."

Nope, that's not what I MEANT to say at least. Again, these tragedies are important using our frame of reference, and need to be fought against here on Earth, but how would they look to someone (as an example) who originally lived 5000 years ago and is now in the presence of the Lord? Yes, they would seem tragic at the time, but then that person would know that they would be over soon, and the souls of those suffering would go on to a better place in any event.

I don't mean to trivialize human suffering in any way, but to point out that if you believe in an afterlife that's ETERNAL, when compared to THAT time frame, all human events, both good and bad, are fleeting.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 27, 2000.


Nancy said:

"Hitler was totally evil, but Stalin killed far more people than Hitler, and Mao killed more than the 2 of them put together."

Good call. It seems God is an equal opportunity ignorer.

Nancy also said:

"We gave him (Satan) the lease to this planet."

This is not scripturally true. God created this planet, according to the Bible, and Satan as well. The one who bears ultimate responsibility for the evils of this world then is God.

Lars said:

"Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? God doesn't cause it; God doesn't prevent it. "

This isn't really true, since God intervened on an almost constant basis in both the Old and the New Testaments. Just ask Job, Moses, Noah, Mary, Lazarus, Sarah, Abraham, Isaac, on and on. To be completely correct, God STOPPED trying to obviously effect human events long ago. And if God neither causes nor prevents good and evil, what is the point of prayer? Why pray when God won't commit to even the slightest effort on your behalf?

Jesus Christ promised his followers that if they gathered together in his name and asked for something, it would be done. Was Jesus lying?

Mara said:

"You can't ask about God and about human suffering at one and the same time because they don't exist together. But, let's say they do exist together. If this were the case, then suffering is irrelevant anyway as the only thing of concern in a domain in which God exists is spiritual development."

So in other words, God created humans with an enormous capacity to suffer and cause suffering, and then absented Himself completely from that process. What a jerk.

Mara also said:

"To think that because we are not tortured, starved, and shot, that we don't suffer is ridiculous."

I don't know anyone who would compare, say, going through a divorce with being burned alive, do you? Yes, they're both a type of suffering of course, and it might be understandable for God not to intervene in the first type, but for God to keep out of the second type is unconscieceable. Especially when He had so many opportunities during the Holocaust and at other points in history.

Frank said:

Small children don't want to get shots or go to the dentist because they see the immediate pain, but don't recognize the long-term benefits of the actions that their parents do for them. While we adults here on Earth view all these events (such as Hitler's, Stalin's etc.) as tragedies, when compared to an ETERNAL lifetime, all of these human events really last less than a heartbeat in duration. Maybe what we consider to be terrible tragedies ARE tragedies to us, but in the greater scheme of things are not really important. Like children afraid of taking our medicine, we just can't see the big picture."

Here we have another example of "it's all part of a big plan,". The loss of 6 million people in the Holocaust, and another estimated 10 million under Stalin, is some seriously bitter medicine to take. It would be analogous to a parent taking their child to the meanest, cruelest doc they could find, and allowing the doc to innoculate their child with a large, germ encrusted rusty needle, then remaining completely stoic in the face of the pain of the child. This is a being you worship?

tt said:

"roberta, this argument goes nowhere--since those of you that like to blame the holocaust on the christians (many of whom died protecting jews) don't really listen to any truth that is presented to you."

Actually, the Holocaust was caused by individual Christians, not Christianity in general, a distinction you apparently fail to grasp. One can have an overriding philosophy and still commit acts not in keeping with that philosophy without bringing the philosophy itself into question.

tt also said:

"yet, notice he doesn't force you to believe--the same way he doesn't force people to play nicely (e.g., Hitler)."

It's not that God didn't force Hitler to "play nice" (as though this were merely a matter of taking someone else's toys!). It's a matter of God creating humanity with an immense capacity of suffering, and then sat back while others mercilessly tortured his so-called "chosen people". If you believe the Bible, you believe that God wants people to believe in Him and Him only. Why would a rational God who had the status of people's souls in mind allow the Holocaust? Can you imagine the effect a miracle would have had on the number of believers? There are plenty of times that God caused miracles to bring believers into the fold, such as the loaves and fishes or the blinding of Paul.

tt also said:

"you say there is no god?"

No, the truth of the matter is, I'm afraid there IS a God. A nasty, arbitrary, petty God who thirsts for the blood of innocent babies and delights in pain and suffering.

gilda said:

" I hear people say all the time after surviving a car wreck or tornado, "God saved me!!" "

Good point. These days, God seems moved to make small miracles. Big masses of suffering humanity only seem to get ignored.

A Watcher said:

"Why did God not intervene and stop it Himself is a rhetorical question that presupposes the mind and plan of God which is beyond human understanding."

This sounds like a cop-out, I must say, since we are supposedly made in the image of God and would therefore presumably have capacity for infinite understanding. Again I must ask the question, "If God has a plan which is beyond human understanding, what is the point of prayer?"

In all of this, I haven't seen anyone actually adress the question of whether god gave at least tacit approval to the Holocaust.



-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Nancy said, in a flash of blinding ignorance, "Chrisitians...did you ever ask yourself why it is that an evil person will always claim to be a Christian. Never does he/she claim to be a Buddist, or a Hindu or even a Moslem."

Ben-Ladin is a Moslem, so was Idi Amin. Mao claimed to be a Buddhist, and later a Taoist, and as you pointed out, he killed more than Stalin or Hitler. Charles Manson was a Scientologist, Bugsy Siegel was a Jew, the Htutus were animasts, the brutal Tojo (architect of the rape of Nanking) was a Shintoist.

None of these evil folk claimed to be Christian.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Roberta Ingersoll said:

>>No, the truth of the matter is, I'm afraid there IS a God.

It sounds like you're ready to elect a new one. Nope, Sorry, the position is already filled. It's a 'life' long self appointment.

*YOU* need to adjust to the 'idea'.

He, has a set of rules you don't like. Much like the rest of society today, Mr. & Mrs. Selfish 'I' want it now, and 'I' want it MY WAY!

If memory serves me correctly, Satan used the 'I' word five times and found 'himself' and a third of the Angels with new living arrangements.

Roberta Ingersoll said:

>>A nasty, arbitrary, petty God who thirsts for the blood of innocent babies and delights in pain and suffering.

GOD has nothing to do with the murder of 4,500 babies every day. For that you need to look at the root cause.....SIN in our culture! Namely the A.C.L.U (American Communist Lawyers Union) N.O.W. and the *Choice* they both wanted.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Roberta, to your last post,

Forgive me for putting words in your mouth, but I think your real issue is with human free will. Your question seems to be "how could a compassionate God allow his people to do this to each other?"

Free will. If God jumped in at each atrocity, how would man progress spiratually? Or to put it more concretely, WHEN should God step in? After 1 million die, 1000, 100, or one? If one million, why wouldn't the next Hitler kill 999,999 and stop, just missing the cut off and being perfectly legal.

What I'm trying to say is that it may be appealing to dream of a "regulated" world, but God wanted us to be truly FREE to choose whether to be good to each other, or not. Don't blame God, blame yourself if the world's not the way you like it.

Back to your post, you said,

"The loss of 6 million people in the Holocaust, and another estimated 10 million under Stalin, is some seriously bitter medicine to take. It would be analogous to a parent taking their child to the meanest, cruelest doc they could find, and allowing the doc to innoculate their child with a large, germ encrusted rusty needle, then remaining completely stoic in the face of the pain of the child. This is a being you worship? "

There are 6-7 billion people right now. Even if SIXTY million people were killed that would only be one percent of the population. Go ask a surgeon how many life threatening operations they undertake where they wouldn't warn the patient of at least a one percent mortality rate. Again, it's all perspective, horrible from one vantage, a piece of the tapestry from another.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 27, 2000.


Frank said:

"If God jumped in at each atrocity, how would man progress spiratually? Or to put it more concretely, WHEN should God step in? After 1 million die, 1000, 100, or one? If one million, why wouldn't the next Hitler kill 999,999 and stop, just missing the cut off and being perfectly legal."

God was perfectly willing to stick His nose in during Biblical times. Remember Moses? The Tower of Babel? How about Noah? What I want to know is, if these things happened, and God really is omnipotent and omniscient, when did it get to be too much bother to take a hand in human affairs? Why was it so much more important to raise Lazarus from the dead than to save 6 million people?

Fred also said:

"Don't blame God, blame yourself if the world's not the way you like it."

God has made it clear in the Bible that it is His world, we are His creations, existing (or not existing) at his fiat. Now all of a sudden he wants to abrogate that responsibility?

Frank also said:

"There are 6-7 billion people right now. Even if SIXTY million people were killed that would only be one percent of the population. Go ask a surgeon how many life threatening operations they undertake where they wouldn't warn the patient of at least a one percent mortality rate. Again, it's all perspective, horrible from one vantage, a piece of the tapestry from another."

Jesus Christ said that if God watches the sparrow and provides for his existance, how much more does he care for us humans? From your POV, however, Jesus was either lying or mistaken when he said that, and clearly our individual lives mean nothing. "

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Roberta Ingersoll said:

Jesus was either lying or mistaken when he said that, and clearly our individual lives mean nothing. "

Where did that come from?

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Ain't Gonna Happen:

I got it from Frank's quote. Frank said, "There are 6-7 billion people right now. Even if SIXTY million people were killed that would only be one percent of the population. Go ask a surgeon how many life threatening operations they undertake where they wouldn't warn the patient of at least a one percent mortality rate. Again, it's all perspective, horrible from one vantage, a piece of the tapestry from another."

If this is a justification for God's negligence in the face of human suffering, then Jesus Christ was lying about our importance to God.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Roberta Ingersoll said:

Jesus Christ said that if God watches the sparrow and provides for his existance, how much more does he care for us humans?

That doesn't mean: 1) Finding the worms and sticking them down their throats or 2) Preventing them from becoming road pizza.

He cares so much for humans, He sent his only Son, Jesus to die for our sins!

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Roberta Ingersoll said:

If this is a justification for God's negligence in the face of human suffering, then Jesus Christ was lying about our importance to God.

NEGLIGENCE? Sounds albeit 'prideful' to me. I am in Noooooooo position to Judge Gods work or workings. I get in enough trouble with the almighty,....I don't need to find more to upset Him with.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Ain't Gonna Happen said:

"He cares so much for humans, He sent his only Son, Jesus to die for our sins!"

Clearly, from this statement, God considers death, suffering, and seperation to be, collectively, a very big deal. After all, God used this sacrifice to save humanity from His own judgement. So why do you think He was so callous and uninvolved during the Holocaust?

Ain't Gonna Happen Here also said:

"I am in Noooooooo position to Judge Gods work or workings. I get in enough trouble with the almighty,....I don't need to find more to upset Him with."

Excatly. God kills indiscriminatly, without warning or reason. Stay on His good side if you believe in Him at all.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


How can we possibly understand God and his motives and plans. He is perfect and we are human and by nature flawed and imperfect and never the twain shall meet. We could develop the most powerful supercomputer ever imaginable and still it would only be a infintesimal fraction of the power of the mind of God. I think it is folly to believe we can even try to understand his mind.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we shouldn't persue knowledge and wisdom. But to set your goal for the unattainable is setting yourself up for failure and disappointment. Shoot for the stars, yes, but recognize human limitations.

-another round please!

-- Outta beer (East of the smoke stack@usa.here), March 27, 2000.


OK lets see here. A few facts first.

Roberta Ingersoll said all of the following so far:

1) She believe's there is a God. 2) He does everything wrong.

If you believe there is a God you MUST believe he has set up Heaven & Hell. Assuming you believe there to be a Heaven & Hell, why would you willingly be blasphemous towards Him as you are?

Do you enjoy the thought of living an eternity in Hell?

God has never, no will he ever seek or consult YOU or ME as to what He should do with HIS CREATION!

If you are so unhappy with Him and His world, why are you still here?

Could it be knowledge of where your next stop beyond the cemetary would take you to?

Think L-O-N-G and hard before you make your next move.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Ain't Gonna Happen said:

"OK lets see here. A few facts first. Roberta Ingersoll said all of the following so far:

1) She believe's there is a God. 2) He does everything wrong.

If you believe there is a God you MUST believe he has set up Heaven & Hell. Assuming you believe there to be a Heaven & Hell, why would you willingly be blasphemous towards Him as you are?

Do you enjoy the thought of living an eternity in Hell?

God has never, no will he ever seek or consult YOU or ME as to what He should do with HIS CREATION!

If you are so unhappy with Him and His world, why are you still here?"

1.) I tend not to believe in God, however, I am afraid that there is one who apparently delights in human suffering.

2.) If the Biblical God does exist, He is certainly cruel and possibily sadistic. He didn't do everything wrong, however. He did do a nice job on the otter.

Lots of people believe in a god, or even the God, but don't believe in Hell. I don't really believe one way or another, since I don't believe one way or another in God Himself. However, if the God of the Bible does exist, and Hell is defined as seperation from that God, then yes, I would rather spend eternity in Hell, seperated from this cruel, vindictive god. It would indeed be preferable to being forever in the presence of a being who at best is negligent and at worst is willfully sadistic.

I am not unhappy with this world, but I do have a lot of issues with the alleged management. If you're so all fired happy with your god, why are YOU still here instead of rushing off to join Him?

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Roberta -

Obviously, Christianity makes no logical, moral, or esthetic sense. We need a revival of your namesake, Robert Ingersoll, the great agnostic. All of this energy wasted on trying to believe six impossible things before breakfast, so as to be a good Christian, could be spent on the real world.

Now that the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God has shown the violence that religious fanatics are capable of, does anyone really think that posting the ten commandments in schools will have any effect at all?

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), March 27, 2000.


Not gonna happen:

I think Roberta raised some good points. IF the bible is the word of God, and some miracles were presented therein that SAVED folks, why isn't there a sequel? Why did the miracles stop 2000 years ago?

On the other hand [and there's typically ANOTHER hand], if someone wrote similar stuff in the last 2,000 years, would ANYONE believe it was the word of God? Who would YOU trust to write it? It's pretty EASY to believe stuff written 2,000 years ago because the folks who did the writing weren't your neighbors, or someone who posted on the internet, eh?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.


Kermit-

Regarding the 10 Commandments debacle, I will quote Bob Ingersoll: "Hands that help are better than lips that pray,"

Anita-

It wouldn't be necessary to write down a book of miracles. Why doesn't the Christian God simply cause a few to happen? Maybe a giant hand writing on the wall of the Senate, or a string of DNA that spells out John 3:16. Of course, if He did that, we would still have the nasty conundrum of His involvement in the Holocaust.

-- Robert Ingersol (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Roberta Ingersoll said:

"God, then yes, I would rather spend eternity in Hell, seperated from this cruel, vindictive god."

And spend it with Satan instead of the God you disagree with? Gee, that makes perfect sence to me.

"Lots of people believe in a god, or even the God, but don't believe in Hell."

Funny thing about Hell is you don't have to believe in Hell to go there.

"If you're so all fired happy with your god, why are YOU still here instead of rushing off to join Him?"

Unlike you, 'I' do not presume to tell God how or when to do things. When He says it's time, that is when I will join Him and NOT a second before.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Ain't Going to Happen:

Assuming there is a Biblical God, who, according to His own scripture is in ultimate control, then He must allow and even encourage evil things to happen. Since this biblical God created Satan, Satan is just another pawn of the almighty's power games. So yes, I would rather spend eternity there. If there is a Satan, and if he is evil, then at least he's honest about it, unlike God, who would tell you to just suck up whatever He sent to you and claim to be good. I'd rather spend my time with someone who's honest than a hypocrite any day.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Anita said:

"IF the bible is the word of God, and some miracles were presented therein that SAVED folks, why isn't there a sequel? Why did the miracles stop 2000 years ago? "

First off, who says they stopped? Second why do we need a "sequel" to Jesus Christ, the biggest miracle since creation of this world?

"It's pretty EASY to believe stuff written 2,000 years ago because the folks who did the writing weren't your neighbors, or someone who posted on the internet, eh?"

Especially since the new testament was written by Jesus' hand picked disciples and written by them while they were filled with and led by the Holy Spirit!

As for the old testament, the first five books were written by Moses, Gods hand picked man to lead the people of Israel out of Egypt and across the Red Sea.

Pretty impressive credentials if ya ask me :)

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Ain't Gonna Happen:

Again, I don't want to step upon anyone's belief systems, but you must admit that you're taking SOMETHING at SOMEONE's word in believing that the folks who wrote the book were either hand-picked disciples or CHOSEN followers. If these same folks made the same claims today and lived down the block, would you consider them to be so worthy, or is it just because you couldn't have possibly been there that you believe what they wrote and the reputations put forth by someone else you don't know?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.


Roberta Ingersoll said:

"Hands that help are better than lips that pray,"

Can you quote the biblical verse on that one for me? I can't seem to find it in my concordance.

"Why doesn't the Christian God simply cause a few (miracles)to happen? Maybe a giant hand writing on the wall of the Senate, or a string of DNA that spells out John 3:16."

Sounds V-E-R-Y similar to what Satan said to Jesus in Matthew 4.

Satan said: 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Jesus said: 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Some things will never change I guess (before Armageddon that is).

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Anita said:

"Again, I don't want to step upon anyone's belief systems, ......"

It's called faith. What do you believe in?

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 27, 2000.


Roberta,

What *exactly* are you railing against, if anything? Again, God is letting us make our own choices for better or worse. He loves us enough to trust us with the world, with the safety valve of eternal peace regardless of what we do here just for those times we screw up.

What else do you want God to do?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 27, 2000.


Roberta, I recently read an autobiography by someone who was in Auschwitz--a blind French Resistance fighter who, remarkably, survived. He was dying and was hauled off to a place to breathe his last. At that time, he had a tremendous conversion experience. For the remainder of his time at Auschwitz, he was NEVER, for a single moment, unhappy. He suffered, but he was not unhappy. His book ends with a statement that being blind doesn't mean you can't see and that being in a situation like Auschwitz doesn't mean that the situation has to control you. This isn't my opinion, this is the experience of someone who went through the Holocaust in a spiritual state.

We do suffer. Our bodies suffer, our egos suffer, our emotions suffer... always. But there is something vaster, deeper, so much more penetrating than that. There is a joy so consuming at approaching God to a closer degree that nothing else has any relevance. Just because you have no frame of reference for that experience doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and isn't true. There is nothing like it. Nothing else has that degree of capacity to move the being and beside that, all else is truly not at all relevant. God is not a panacea. God is not a comforting blanket. God is not a bank. Don't expect that. God turns to those who turn toward Him and even the slightest glimpse is worth everything. That's the true story.

-- Mara (MW@aol.com), March 27, 2000.


Mara - Frankl, "Man's Search for Meaning" was that the same book? it sounds just like it - agree with you btw.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 27, 2000.

Frank-

I am railing against the contradictory idea that a good god allowed the holocaust.

More than anything, I want a god that is fair and just. This god clearly is neither.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


To question is the answer

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), March 27, 2000.

I seem to have read somewhere that God made a deal with Abraham or somebody like that, that if the Jews stayed to the prescribed path, they would be protected from bad things. Now we are told that the holocaust was about the worst thing that ever happened to the Jews, a statement few can deny. So what happened to the deal between God and Abraham? If I were a Jew, I would be a little worried about that. Either somebody lied or somebody strayed. I know fundelmentalist Christians who don't think somebody lied.

-- Richard C. Trochlil (trochlilbb@neumedia.net), March 27, 2000.

Roberta,

I can only add my suggestion that you read Viktor Frankl's book, I think it is called Logotherapy: Man's Search for Meaning, or something like that. Frankl was a psychiatrist who survived the death camps and asked the same questions you have raised here. You may find his conclusions helpful, or you may reject them, but he was there, and that makes his observations worth at least listening to.

You have suggested that, if God exists, for the holocaust to have happened He must either 1. be unable to have prevented it, or 2. not have wanted to prevent it. Your assertion that only those two possibilities exist is tempting, but it is an assumption which cannot be proven apart from some omniscience on your part. I have spent most of my life believing that there are three dimensions. Then I learned that time can also be considered a dimension, so I believed there were four. But my neighbor, the engineer, confidently asserted that mathematically it can be proven that there are actually eleven dimensions. (He may have said nine, but I think it was eleven.) Anyway, I don't have a clue how there can be that many, and maybe he was putting me on. The point is, my ability to understand the concept doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And there may be more possibilities than you recognize in your scenario.

regards,

gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), March 27, 2000.


God loves the rich. Why else would He create the lobster - and then make it so expensive?

-- (eat@drink.and), March 27, 2000.

If God is perfect, why did He give men nipples?

-- (jonathanedwards@yale.edu), March 27, 2000.

Since experiences of God are good grounds for the existence of God, are not experiences of the absence of God good grounds for the nonexistence of God?

When in doubt maybe it is best to go with "Pascal's Wager".....it is the easy path.

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), March 27, 2000.


Is anyone posting here old enough to vote?

This whole "discussion" sounds like a screenplay for for a teen-angst movie.

-- (just@like.highschool), March 27, 2000.


I've been old enough to vote for over twenty years. Do you think that questioning the existance of God and the nature of that existance is immature?

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.

Roberta,

Again, what do YOU think God should have done to prevent the holocaust? Kill Hitler before he started, or stop him at some arbitrary number of deaths, what?

It's easy to disagree with something, but what is YOUR solution for God? How should he respond when people wish to be evil to each other, but not interfere with the free will they need to decide for themselves the values of good and evil?

Or is the object of the thread not to search for an answer, but to troll out the topic as long as possible?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 27, 2000.


You are right! This looks like the script for "The Breakfast Club" - the one the studio threw away.

-- (just@foolin'.around), March 27, 2000.

read The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom. true story of Christian lady who was in there with here sister(who died while at Ravensbruk camp). her father died 10 days after their house was raided...they weren't jews, but they hid them for about 2 yrs til they got caught. amazing story! she never lost her faith in God, and her prayers were continually answered. local library should have a copy

-- joy (God@is.love), March 27, 2000.

Gene-- I seem to have missed Roberta's saying God could not prevent the Holocaust. The assumptions were that God was omnipotent.

As I see it God cannot be omnipotent and good and still allow things like the Holocaust to happen.

It seems equally likely to me that God is good and not omnipotent as that He is not good but is omnipotent.

My God is good. He may not be omnipotent.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), March 27, 2000.


Frank:

I think Roberta made her point clear at the beginning of this thread. She'd read the other thread(s) about the Holocaust and the debate therein regarding whether or not Hitler was a Christian. She felt there was a question left unanswered, and she chose to start a new thread with that thought in mind. Why is this considered trolling? I found the discourse quite interesting until some folks came in suggesting the topic inane.

Ain't: [at least I THINK that's part of your name]

I agree that the bible as the word of god is founded on a belief. However, I found you debating the writers and writings of that book as though you thought everyone else SHARED that belief. I DO NOT share that belief. MY beliefs are not the topic of this thread. Of course we could start another thread on WHAT folks believe [just for fun.]

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.


Where's that link to the Onion satire where the Jews were suing God for $4.2 trillion for breach of covenant? Seemed like a good idea to me. Has the Onion done a followup?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 27, 2000.

As I see it, God cannot be competent and good and still allow things like the Holocaust to happen.

It seems equally likely to me that God is good and not competent as that He is not good but is competent.

My God is good. He may not be competent.

-- (alley@oop.com), March 27, 2000.


Frank said:

"Again, what do YOU think God should have done to prevent the holocaust? Kill Hitler before he started, or stop him at some arbitrary number of deaths, what?"

The Holocaust should have never been allowed to happen, plain and simple. God could have caused His spirit to move over the German people, prompting them to reject Hitler and his anti-Semitism. Unless of course, God's spirit moved across the German people and caused them to ACCEPT Hitler and his anti-Semitism.

God could have used the Holocaust to show the world His mercy and omnipotence. He could have caused the gate of all the camps to open, He could have used His glory to strike the Nazis blind, as He did with Saul of Tarsus. He could have resurrected the Jews as He did with Lazarus. He could have prevented the first murder from every taking place, as He did when Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac.

The point is, an infinite God had an infinite number of ways to stop the Holocaust. He did NONE of them, which is why God is the biggest villan of the ages.

Frank also said:

"It's easy to disagree with something, but what is YOUR solution for God? How should he respond when people wish to be evil to each other, but not interfere with the free will they need to decide for themselves the values of good and evil?"

Simple. Since God knows everyone's thoughts, and since thoughts are enough to get you condemned (i.e., sinning in your heart), then God would know that one of His creatures had evil in His heart. God would know what that person was going to do, and God could prevent it, or convince them otherwise.

Of course, if God really does know everything that's going to happen, then what's the point of life in the first place, why not simply look at what we would do and judge us from that?

Finally, Frank said: "Or is the object of the thread not to search for an answer, but to troll out the topic as long as possible?"

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm a troll.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Anita,

I'll agree, trolling was a bad choice of words. Better for me to say I feel I was wasting my time here.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 27, 2000.


Roberta , the same things keep being said over and over and you keep arguing with it. We cannot change the Bible or God's edicts. Yet you keep slamming God. You keep slamming Christians

God did say He was the author of all evil. What He was saying is that He created the angels.....satan, and he created choice and free will in man. Evil was produced as a result of sin.

Until one recognizes sin in their own life and asks for forgiveness from a creator God one will spend their life walking angrily in circles.

The evil ones I was speaking of who claim to be Christians are those from a European background. I realize I was not clear. And Manson and those who claim an occultisit background get very little attention for that religion. Those evil ones who get attention for thier religion are those who claim to be Christian.

Anita....the Bible is in the process of being fulfilled. The Lord will return. I expect a new Bible will then be written.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 27, 2000.


The answer is simple... WE are God, and we don't care.

God gave us free will. If we look the other way when people like Hitler come along, then shit happens. If we choose love above all, then we will experience Heaven on Earth. It's all up to us, and that's the choice that God gave us. Why blame Him?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), March 27, 2000.


Nancy said:

"The evil ones I was speaking of who claim to be Christians are those from a European background."

Why would it be at all remarkable that a European would also claim to be a Christian, since Christianity has been the dominant religion in Europe for centuries?

"And Manson and those who claim an occultisit background get very little attention for that religion. Those evil ones who get attention for thier religion are those who claim to be Christian."

Oh REALLY? No one ever discusses the fact that Manson is a Scientologist? No one makes political hay over the fact that Ben Laden is Muslim? No one ever mentions the fact that Bugsy Siegel is Jewish? The Christian press didn't mention the fact that the Hutus were animasts (please ignore the 700 Club special)? Of course, the fact that Mao was Taoist instead of Christian is never brought up (let's not count your own statements to that fact)?

No, you're absolutely right. Only the Christians have their religion sullied by association with evil acts.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 27, 2000.


Hawk:

If WE are God, I want you to use the proper gender. Why blame HER? [grin] Actually, I agree with you in many ways on the WE are God concept, but the subjective inference of male gender is incorrect in this context.

Nancy:

It's my understanding that the next time YOUR lord comes will be at the time of rapture. Did I forget something? It could very well be that I did. It's been almost 20 years since I read the bible, koran, talmud, etc. Assuming I'm right [which is a HUGE assumption], WHO would write the new book?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.


Anita, my mother is no longer here. But yes I did say "I didn't ask to be here," to her a couple of times. Yes she knew how I felt about religion even though she believed the old tales. And unless you know the situation, you cannot judge that I was wrong for saying it.

Watcher, I personally think the Bible was written by a bunch of old men who added their own spin to it. As far as end times and fearing end times. BALONEY!

Beer, people have been committing heinous crimes through the centuries, and it's just more of the same continuing. I rejected the Christian religion, and I've never committed a crime nor has my child, who was not indoctrinated into this emotional blackmail. We don't need sermons to know what is the right thing.

kermit, it is so nice to see someone on there that thinks, rather than being brainwashed, or believing voodoo magic, or literally a book written men in an ancient time. That book sure doesn't have many good words about women either. Yes we do need another Robert Ingersoll. Bertrand Russell salso said it like it was and was practically banned in the God-awful U. S. Did you ever read his Satan in the Suburbs.

I read Frankl's book, and that is just one person's experience. I can name others who felt differently.

Frank, you're not the only one wasting there time here. Christians think they are God's favorites and this earth is just a holding pen for the day they go join God and sing hymns, and praise God, and rejoice in heaven, and praise God, have their sins and griefs washed away in the blood of the lamb, and praise God. Good luck you credulous folks. I hope you enjoy it immensley. Sounds borrrrring.

"I think I could turn and live with the animals, They are so placid and self-contained. They do not sweat and whine about their condition. They do not lie away in the dark weeping for their sins. They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God. Not one is dissatisfied, Not one is demented with the mania of owning things. No one bows down to another, nor one of his kind that lived thousands of years ago. Not one is unhappy or respectable over the whole earth." By Walt Whitman,

Freedom From Religion is my motto. Once I threw off the yoke of religion, I felt like a free person, without worry for the first time in my life.

Roberta, I only have one book by Ingersoll, but I understand there is a whole set. Sure wish I had them all.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 27, 2000.


Roberta, I think you brought up a good question. What we have here, though, are two viewpoints which are absolutist-There is no relativism here at all.

When two points of view are absolute, no common ground can be found. Living on this forum, I recently gave up arguing with fundamentalist christians-There is nothing, absolutely nothing that can be said to change their mind and there judgements of eternal damnation should we not follow "The way"(sorry Lao Tse).

I suggest everyone read Conversations with God by Neil Donald Walsch. He discusses the subject of Hitler at some length, and his conclusion, and I paraphrase, is that until we understand that Hitler is in "heaven" we will not understand the nature of God. It is a good read-It Changed my life.

To all the lurkers who have posted today-Hey, Good to hear from you. Keep coming back!

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 27, 2000.


Anita, if these same people made these claims today, people with brains would laugh at their goofiness. But the credulous, the needy, the brainwashed would do the same thing again and follow like sheep. After all we have Heaven's Gate, Branch Davidians, Jim Jones and all the other nuts that have poor besotted, people trailing after them all the time. A new one will no doubt come along any day now to tempt the pitiful.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 27, 2000.

Gilda:

I didn't suggest you were WRONG in saying that, but as a mother who had at least ONE kid say the same thing to ME, I hold to my statement regarding it being a shabby one-liner. Hmmm...I betcha I even said that to MY mother. Thankfully, she's forgotten most of life's events.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.


Gilda, Have you ever wondered just what makes you so angry...at Christians, and Christianity? Do you hate muslims, Jews, and any other religious groups? Just curious :)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), March 27, 2000.

"I think I could turn and live with the animals, They are so placid and self-contained. They do not sweat and whine about their condition. They do not lie away in the dark weeping for their sins. They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God. Not one is dissatisfied, Not one is demented with the mania of owning things. No one bows down to another, nor one of his kind that lived thousands of years ago. Not one is unhappy or respectable over the whole earth." By Walt Whitman, quote curtousey of Gilda.

Walt, Gilda, have you ever really spent much time in the woods, among real animals, not the variety on TV??? No, animals do not "weep for their sins", but animals are FREQUENTLY disatisfied. And get this....some of the big ones will EAT your silly butts.....yeah, spend your time with THOSE cute ones.....lol.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), March 27, 2000.


Roberta, you insist on missing the point. No one cares what the religion is when someone commits an evil act.....unless that person claims to be Christian. Hitler seems far more interesting because he claims to be Christian even though he was a satanist and occultist and not a Christian. Why? And Idi Amin etc., no one cares what his religiion is, unless of course he claims to be a Christian, which would then be another lie. By the way, Scientology is not and does not have anything to do Chrisitanity.

You are on your own trip Roberta..........enjoy.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 27, 2000.


Define "God."

This is the first rule of any discussion - define your terms.

Roberta: You have set out a definition of God which you are saying makes no sense. I think everyone here would agree with you!

But, those who have talked about God, are saying that THAT is not THEIR definition of God, and are offering a different definition, with another aspect to it - man's free will. (I know I'm oversimplifying) As Hawk put it, "God gave us free will. If we look the other way when people like Hitler come along, then shit happens. If we choose love above all, then we will experience Heaven on Earth. It's all up to us, and that's the choice that God gave us. Why blame Him?"

I'm not preaching this. I'm not religious in any way except a certain way which makes sense to me. My beliefs are not the point, but just to try to point out that for this discussion to go anywhere, "God" has to be defined. Are you interested in (1) finding another definition of God that makes sense for you, or in (2) knocking down a definition that doesn't make sense? That, you have already accomplished. (or (3) - both?)

It's like the argument about "preps." People were always arguing about "preps." Time and again doomers would make blanket statements like "Pollies are against preparation!" Then a non-doomer (polly) would have to come back with, "I'm NOT against preparation. The kind of preparation I AM against is,, ... blah blah blah." Then it was, "Yes you ARE, you are against MY preparation the way I see fit. I think the risk is FAR worse, and even if I'm wrong, I can eat my mistake, what's it to you?" and so on.

It would have helped to have a common ground to define "preps" - but sometimes people aren't content to agree to disagree. They want to keep on struggling with an issue! Nothing wrong with that, but WHY? In the case of Y2k, the issues were deeper than "preps," and this usually came out. There was more to it than just the preps. So it helped to clarify some of the underlying issues. It just seems like there's more here, to what you're trying to get at, otherwise why struggle? -- just a thought.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 27, 2000.


Roberta -

Yes of course it's all a myth. But be careful! The tricky thing about myths is that they transcend reality. Look at the Cabala for instance.

But God does exist, and as Mara says, he is all that exists. To understand someone like Hitler's role, study the following progression:

The purpose of sin is to cause pain and suffering.

The purpose of pain and suffering is to make us ask the important questions.

The purpose of asking the important questions is to make us evolve intellectually.

The purpose of us evolving intellectually is so that we become a conscious animal.

The purpose of us becoming a conscious animal is so that we can transform into God. Once at the end of our life, and once at the end of Evolution.

But I understand your disgruntled state. Some suggestions:

- Do some good quality psychedelic substances.

- Practice Eastern transcendental meditation.

- Study post-modern quantum theory.

And don't throw your Bible away! It's the best cosmic prose ever written, at least on this planet.

-- Kundalini (thoughts@cloud.com), March 27, 2000.


Roberta,

Thank you for your response. If you believe God should not have allowed the holocaust to occur, what is the biggest tragedy that he SHOULD allow to occur? How many people to you is it o.k. to let die in the name of free will before God steps in and puts a stop to it?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 27, 2000.


Roberta, I freely admit that I have not read any responses to your original question (too tired tonight and don't have the time.) However, I ran across this essay today that I found interesting. It may be of value. I do not recommend the Website in which it is contained, however, because I have not had a chance to explore it. The essay itself, appears to be original.

Physics and the Mind of God: The Templeton Prize Address

:)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 27, 2000.


Nancy:

It seems as though you can only accept opinions that equate to your own. I noticed that on the Vermont Law thread, as well. Are you the same Nancy that presented a link to this thread on the EZBOARD forum?

Frank:

I thought you gave up. It's good to see you jumping back in. Just as there would be no need to discuss goodness without evil to counter it...just as there would be no need for religion without Satan to counter it...this thread needs input from all sides.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.


I think that we may have a false premise here, which is that when speaking of God, we assume that His concept of "good" is similar to what we humans know as "good."

Rather, I think that, when you try to reason it out, God's "good" can only be seen as simply that which he chooses to do or refrain from doing. So, since God, being omnipotent, for some mysterious reason chose to allow the Holocaust, He must have seen it as "good."

Because the above analysis is abhorrent to me, my belief in God is weak, remains very abstract, non-biblical, and most likely contains a psychological element without which I would be an agnostic.

I grew up in a Jewish household. We saw ourselves as Jews by birth and celebrated some of the traditions, but my parents never spoke of God, though (other than in an occasional prayer when the prayer was an important part of a tradition that we were celebrating), and it was years later that the reason was made clear to me: The Holocaust.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), March 28, 2000.


P.S., for those of you who care to read through Paul Davies speech, it appears that he may be one of those "scientists" who believe that scientists need to pay a bit more attention to religion.

Just my two cents. Worth what ya paid for it.

:)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 28, 2000.


Well, here's another two cents:

I also ran across this transcript today--from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation--and linked from Paul Davies's home page at

Paul Davies's Home Page

The transcript is titled: The Nature of Evil

The Nature of Evil

'Just passin' it on for whatever it may be worth.

:)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 28, 2000.


The Jews are called God's people in the scriptures, and they have suffered much throughout history. Yet, in the scriptures, whenever they called out to God to save them, He did. In fact, He sent His only Son that they might be saved, and yet they rejected him. If they had cried out to God for mercy and received Jesus Christ as their Savior, then the holocaust would have ended. After all, according to their own Old Testament, God was known to send and angel and kill 186,000 of their enemies in one night. Thus, one of three things must be true:

1: They didn't cry out for help. OR

2: They cried out for help, but in the wrong way. OR

3: Their God has changed.

Their own scriptures say that their God has not changed. Thus, number 3 is out of the picture. Number one would about have to be out - anyone suffering like they did is going to cry out for help. Thus, they must be crying out to the wrong God in the wrong way. Jesus Christ is their Savior, and rejection of Him is a rejection of the God that sent Him.

There - that is a simple explanation for the Holocaust. Most, primarily including the Jews, are not going to like it, but that's the way things are.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Whether in heaven or on earth - it's up to you. Unfortunately, waiting until the judgment seat of Christ is too late for you to be saved from eternal death.

Robert Bright

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), March 28, 2000.


Robert Bright,

You said,

"...that's the way things are."

No, that's the way you happen to believe.

In any case, your "good" God thought torturing Anne Frank on earth, and then seeing that wasn't enough, torturing her forever in Hell were "good" things? Alas, according to my post above (and probably yours as well), I suppose so.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), March 28, 2000.


Robert Bright said:

"If they had cried out to God for mercy and received Jesus Christ as their Savior, then the holocaust would have ended. "

Believe in Jesus or else, right Frank?

Anyway, this statement begs the question of why so many Christians died during the Holocaust as well.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 28, 2000.


FactFouler, Aren't you disingenous by asking, "Do you hate muslims, Jews, and any other religious groups?" Sounds like the jerk who asked "When did you stop beating your wife."

First, I never said I hated Christians. I don't hate anyone; it takes too much energy, and most aren't worth the trouble. But they are a pain in the ass, and I intend to say so whenever I please. There is no other religion that tries to convert the world, forcing their values and religious beliefs on others, like the Christians do. They subvert not only other people's religions but their cultures as well.

One thing I like about the Jews, they don't try to constantly convert others.

"Gilda have you ever spent much time in the wood?" I hate to bust your ignorant bubble, but I have spent the last 36 years living at the edge of approximately 750 acres of woods. And I grew up in the woods and on the lake when this place was very unpopulated. I've probably spent more time with real animals than you ever will.

Obviously you don't recognize the metaphor in Whitman's poem. You dolt, metaphor is figurative language, an idea treated as metaphor. Or course animals don't weep for their sins, and can be unhappy, if you can only think in literal terms, like Bible thumpers do. But I'll give you the benefit of being intentionally dense.

Yes Mr. Fact Fouler.....Surprise!!! I do know that animals will eat people, you condescending jerk. And I know people will rape, kill, pillage, burn, and torture other people, without even the excuse of doing it for food, or because their territory is invaded or they feel threatened or their young may be in danger.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 28, 2000.


Anita,

It's like this. I find it hard to understand people who say "because of X I have no faith". Like in this example, Roberta says if God existed he would not have allowed the holocaust, so he must not exist. Well, my question is if people think this way, how big of a tradgedy SHOULD he allow to occur before intervening? 10,000 dead, 1000, 1? Where do you believe God should draw the line?

That's a simple enough question, I think.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 28, 2000.


Roberta, you said,

"Believe in Jesus or else, right Frank? "

I think you have me confused with someone else, I haven't yet mentioned Jesus (oops, I just did now :) )

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 28, 2000.


Frank:

I'm not so sure it's important that you understand. Let me rephrase that: " It's not important that *I* understand. I attempt to understand concrete things, but how could I EVER understand belief systems if I don't share those beliefs? It seems to ME that Roberta is using [at least in part] some stories from the Bible to demonstrate that God once intervened. If one believes the stories in the bible, one COULD conclude that since God ONCE intervened, and NO LONGER intervenes, SOMETHING has changed. WHAT might have changed? Did God change her mind? Is God dead? Now if one does NOT believe the stories in the bible, one doesn't begin with the premise that God once intervened. Therefore, there's no need to question why/why not God didn't intervene in more recent years.

Was that clear? If so, explain it to ME. [grin] I find it INTERESTING to read what folks think about all this, but I don't attempt to try to understand WHAT they think, let alone WHY they think it.

This thread introduces questions that the other thread did not. The other thread concentrated on whether or not Hitler was a Christian. The responses on the other thread clearly indicated that different folks have different images of what constitutes a Christian. There are many flavors of Christianity, and each flavor thinks they're right. Personally, I think ANYONE that kills others simply based on cultural differences is INSANE. That's MY belief. With THAT as a premise, it doesn't matter to me if Hitler said he was a pink elephant, but it's still interesting to read the opinions of others on the topic.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 28, 2000.


Anita, you said,

"Roberta is using [at least in part] some stories from the Bible to demonstrate that God once intervened. If one believes the stories in the bible, one COULD conclude that since God ONCE intervened, and NO LONGER intervenes, SOMETHING has changed."

Nope, gotta disagree. Roberta in a prior post said,

"God was perfectly willing to stick His nose in during Biblical times. Remember Moses? The Tower of Babel? How about Noah? What I want to know is, if these things happened, and God really is omnipotent and omniscient, when did it get to be too much bother to take a hand in human affairs? Why was it so much more important to raise Lazarus from the dead than to save 6 million people?"

Her examples themselves prove my point. God intervened to save Noah? after letting the evildoers *prosper* for God knows how many years at the cost of God knows how many innocent lives HE KILLED THE REST OF THE WORLD EXCEPT NOAH'S FAMILY and Roberta says that's a great intervention, but current events aren't? Moses, Babel, how many innocents died BEFORE God's intervention? How many years OF SUFFERING does he allow before stepping in?

The point I'm trying to make (badly perhaps) is that it's idiotic to say that God couldn't allow something to occur no matter how heinous it is. Don't think 6 million dead is acceptable, how about 5,999,999 is that ok? All the way down to well, letting two people die is atrocious, so maybe one person could suffer? I don't know if this is making sense to anyone else, but how does someone get arrogant enough to tell God what the cutoff is for dealing with the world?

People are either free to decide their own fates or they're not. If God doesn't allow evil to occur, how can we be expected to choose between the two?

BTW, Roberta's initial question was:

" If the Christians are correct, and there is an omnipotent, compassionate god, then how was the Holocaust allowed to happen in the first place? "

My answer is: "He let the Holocaust happen in order to show people he will allow us to choose our own path for better or worse so that we can truly decide between good and evil." Does this mean he won't intervene tomorrow? No. It just means we haven't nociticed any recent interventions to date. (I say this because who knows, maybe an intervention did occur, maybe Hitler was supposed to have taken over the world and killed d*mn near everyone. I doubt it, but I don't really KNOW that's not what happened.)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 28, 2000.


Frank said:

"God intervened to save Noah? after letting the evildoers *prosper* for God knows how many years at the cost of God knows how many innocent lives HE KILLED THE REST OF THE WORLD EXCEPT NOAH'S FAMILY and Roberta says that's a great intervention, but current events aren't?"

Lying for Jesus, Frank? I never said God's intervention with Noah was a good thing, in fact, I think it proves just what a psychotic, blood thirsty freak God is. However, the story of Noah is a prime example of God intervening in human events. The flood never would have happened were it not for God's intervention.

Then, Frank said:

"I don't know if this is making sense to anyone else, but how does someone get arrogant enough to tell God what the cutoff is for dealing with the world?"

No one mentioned a number for a cut-off point, Frank, but you. You're fighting your own straw man here. It is clear from the evidence that if there is a God, He is either not aware of the pain He causes, doesn't care about the pain He causes, or intentionally causes that pain. In any case, someone should go toe to toe with the big bully and tell Him just what He's doing.

Thus sprach Frank:

"People are either free to decide their own fates or they're not. If God doesn't allow evil to occur, how can we be expected to choose between the two?"

Frank, Frank, Frank. If God knows everything that is in every human's heart, then God can see the intention and judge from that. If God knows everything that will happen, then He knows that someone will murder someone else, and can judge that person without that murder taking place. Certainly you don't believe God can be surprised, for if you do, that would mean that God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Also Sprach Frank:

"He let the Holocaust happen in order to show people he will allow us to choose our own path for better or worse so that we can truly decide between good and evil."

I guess either the Jews weren't worthy of a choice, or maybe they weren't really people in the eyes of God. Either way, THEY certainly didn't get a choice.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 28, 2000.


Roberta, you said,

"Lying for Jesus, Frank? I never said God's intervention with Noah was a good thing, in fact, I think it proves just what a psychotic, blood thirsty freak God is. However, the story of Noah is a prime example of God intervening in human events. "

First, I haven't been bringing up Jesus AT ALL, that appears to be your hang-up. Secondly, I think you missed the point I was trying to make about Noah. You were saying God wouldn't have allowed the Holocaust because 6M people died, but in Noah's case, EVERYONE ON EARTH was killed except Noah's folk. Why wouldn't you be more outraged at God for that event than for the Holocaust (if number of lives means anything to you)?

You also said,

"No one mentioned a number for a cut-off point, Frank, but you."

And you are still avoiding the question I posed several posts ago. You feel God shouldn't have allowed the Holocaust, Fine. How much human suffering SHOULD GOD ALLOW to make you happy? Can any innocent person die, can thousands?

You also said,

"I guess either the Jews weren't worthy of a choice, or maybe they weren't really people in the eyes of God. Either way, THEY certainly didn't get a choice."

WHERE did you come up with that? Not from anything I wrote! I'm well aware that innocent people die, both by accident and malice. What does that have to do with the destination of their souls?

On a more general level, you state an omnipotent, omniscient God could judge people by intent before they do something, and could sentence them at that time instead of letting carry out their actions. Roberta, you're not thinking big enough. If you want God to step in ahead of time, why have the universe at all? Why not at its inception take everyone who would ever be born BEFORE they were born and put them straight into Heaven or Hell and skip the whole process of letting them live their lives themselves? After all, God knows the end, right?

Well, why didn't God do it that way and save himself the trouble of creating everything? (rhetorically asked BTW)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 28, 2000.


Frank said:

"You were saying God wouldn't have allowed the Holocaust because 6M people died, but in Noah's case, EVERYONE ON EARTH was killed except Noah's folk. Why wouldn't you be more outraged at God for that event than for the Holocaust (if number of lives means anything to you)?"

If God caused the flood, then yeah, there's more evidence of His blood thirst, and that would be a good thing to get angry about. For this post, however, I chose the Holocaust because there were several other posts on that topic already.

Then, Frank said:

"How much human suffering SHOULD GOD ALLOW to make you happy? Can any innocent person die, can thousands?"

See my response to that question earlier in this thread.

Later, Frank said:

"WHERE did you come up with that? Not from anything I wrote!"

You said God let the Holocaust happen in order to allow people to choose their own paths of good or evil. And yet, those who were victims of the Holocaust didn't get a choice, Frank.

Finally, Frank finished with:

"If you want God to step in ahead of time, why have the universe at all? Why not at its inception take everyone who would ever be born BEFORE they were born and put them straight into Heaven or Hell and skip the whole process of letting them live their lives themselves? After all, God knows the end, right?"

Damn good point, Frank. In fact, I couldn't have said it better myself. If God already knows what's going to happen, then there IS no point, particularly since God already knows who's going to Hell and who isn't. Obviously, if this is the case, we are nothing more than rats in God's maze, tortured for His amusement.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 28, 2000.


Roberta, you said,

"Then, Frank said:

"How much human suffering SHOULD GOD ALLOW to make you happy? Can any innocent person die, can thousands?"

See my response to that question earlier in this thread."

Roberta, I guess I'm slow. Could you cut and paste your answer here for me? I can't seem to find it.

You also said,

"And yet, those who were victims of the Holocaust didn't get a choice, Frank. "

No they didn't. So what? Does a car crash victim get a choice? A murder victim? Again, innocents die every day, what does that have to do with the fate of their souls?

You also say,

"If God already knows what's going to happen, then there IS no point,"

If there is no God THEN what is the point? To scrabble around for SUVs and big screens until you drop of an MI? Talk about a depressing life!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), March 28, 2000.


Gilda, Interesting, and very strong response. Any ideas from where the rage within you ....originates? Just curious, and perhaps one day, you will be as well ....:)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), March 28, 2000.

Just my 2 cents- It was not God's business to stop Hitler, Ted Bundy, Jim Jones, and countless others who wreaked utter devastation through the ages. It was the business of people who saw what was happening and very unfortunately, chose to do nothing.

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), March 29, 2000.

Frank,

You are making a fine case argument for a God who says:

"I will judge you by your actions on this earthly plane, ie, did you accept my son?"

However, (as God) I am perfectly willing to allow you to face situations that would make even the strongest doubt him, as in torture and gassing by Nazis. And if you are not strong enough to face physical pain, if you are raised in a family that would not lead you to Him, if for any reason whatsoever you doubt and dismiss him, you shall burn in hell forever.

Yes, by golly, what a loving God is he.

Also, suppose there is a man who fights off feelings of, oh, let us say pedophilia or homosexuality, and though he can think of nothing else he does not succumb to his wants. Does he go to what he would see as heaven to molest little children or lay with men as a woman? Afterall, that is heaven to him.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), March 29, 2000.


Uncle, you said,

"However, (as God) I am perfectly willing to allow you to face situations that would make even the strongest doubt him, as in torture and gassing by Nazis. And if you are not strong enough to face physical pain, if you are raised in a family that would not lead you to Him, if for any reason whatsoever you doubt and dismiss him, you shall burn in hell forever. "

Nope, sorry unk. Again, you're trying to force God to fit in to a box that's too small for him. While God may let you be put into an intolerable situation here on Earth, that doesn't mean it carries over to the next world.

In other words, I would highly doubt that God would judge someone denying Him in the comfort of their living room and after sober reflection the same as he would judge someone who was having their fingernails pulled out one by one. What sense would that make? Even Peter denied Jesus 3 times and was apparently forgiven for it, so I think it would be fair to say that you will be judged, but that judgement will take into account your circumstances here on Earth.

Also, please don't try and define MY criteria of who will go to Heaven or Hell for me. I personally leave that up to God. But as a general rule, having children of my own who I love, I'd bet far more people are forgiven than not.

You also said, "Also, suppose there is a man who fights off feelings of, oh, let us say pedophilia or homosexuality, and though he can think of nothing else he does not succumb to his wants. Does he go to what he would see as heaven to molest little children or lay with men as a woman? Afterall, that is heaven to him. "

Unk, I could answer this too, but after reading the above, do I really have to?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 29, 2000.


Frank said:

"While God may let you be put into an intolerable situation here on Earth, that doesn't mean it carries over to the next world."

Hell isn't an intolerable situation?

Frank also said:

"In other words, I would highly doubt that God would judge someone denying Him in the comfort of their living room and after sober reflection the same as he would judge someone who was having their fingernails pulled out one by one. What sense would that make? Even Peter denied Jesus 3 times and was apparently forgiven for it, so I think it would be fair to say that you will be judged, but that judgement will take into account your circumstances here on Earth."

Are you even a Christian, Frank? The Bible is very clear on the point that judgement is a pass-fail event. Jesus said, "No man makes it to the father except by me," If what Jesus said was correct, then no one who wasn't a believer in Christ will go to heaven.

As a point of fact, Peter was still alive to ask for forgivness, unlike so many countless others.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 29, 2000.


Fact Fouler, I only get in a rage when:

1. Christians try and shove religion on me through guilt, witnessing and proseltizing, and especially squealing we are "the only true religion!"

2. When someone accuses me of "hating Christians" because I say I get sick and tired or having religion shoved at me, and because I happen to disagree with the accuser.

3. When someone reads a poem, takes it literally, then immediately assumes I've never been around a real live animal in my life.

4. When a person doesn't make a valid argument, but instead makes silly, condescending remarks.

And by the way, I read every word of FM's post, with the link to : Physics and the Mind of God, and I agree with it totally. Sounds like a Scientific Pantheist to me, a logical person. I am a Scientific Pantheist. You should read the essay, you might learn something.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 29, 2000.


Well Roberta, one more try:

First, could you please respond to:

"How much human suffering SHOULD GOD ALLOW to make you happy? Can any innocent person die, can thousands?"

Second, you said, ""While God may let you be put into an intolerable situation here on Earth, that doesn't mean it carries over to the next world."

Hell isn't an intolerable situation?"

I musn't have expressed myself clearly. What I meant was that even if you are put into an intolerable situation on Earth, that DOESN'T mean you will be in the hereafter.

Next, you said, "Are you even a Christian, Frank? The Bible is very clear on the point that judgement is a pass-fail event. Jesus said, "No man makes it to the father except by me," If what Jesus said was correct, then no one who wasn't a believer in Christ will go to heaven. "

What does this response have to do with my post?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 29, 2000.


Frank fumed:

"How much human suffering SHOULD GOD ALLOW to make you happy? Can any innocent person die, can thousands?"

None. If God loves His creations, and doesn't want them to suffer, then they shouldn't suffer. When the time comes for His humans to come back to Him, a loving god would make the end painless and instant, as opposed to long and excrutiating. What good could come of dying painfully and horribly? In the "showers" at Auschwitz, when people were choked to death with Zyklon-B, the end was so painful and horrible that many clawed their faces to shreds trying to find relief. Many bodies were found with shoulders dislocated from trying to escape that room. All were found with their faces twisted in horrible death agony. What kind of sick, demented creature includes that as part of their plan?

Next, Frank said, "What I meant was that even if you are put into an intolerable situation on Earth, that DOESN'T mean you will be in the hereafter."

If you are a Christian, then you know that, according to your God, all non-Christians will end up in Hell.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 29, 2000.


Frank-

Something you said made an impression on me. You said that you were a parent, that you had children you loved. You said that, as a parent, you believe that God would be more forgiving than some might believe. You have also said that God loves us, and wants us to be happy, and that He has a plan that we can't fathom.

As a parent, I ask you to imagine the following scenario. One of your children is has been killed by a classmate. The classmate raped your child, beat him/her with a baseball bat, set your child's clothes on fire, and killed him/her in the most horrible, obscene way imagineable. When confronted with the foul deed, the perpetrator points to his parents, whom he claims told him to commit these heinous acts. The parents refuse to answer any questions one way or another, except to say that they have a plan which no one else is capable of understanding, but which will become clear at some point in the future.

Would this be acceptable to you?

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 29, 2000.


Roberta,

Really now, what do you think? Of course not. If I could I'd like them to all be hung out on the nearest telephone pole, but if nothing else, at least I could take comfort in the fact that after undergoing her tragedy here on Earth, my daughter would be safe and happy in the arms of the Lord.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 29, 2000.


Now you understand how I feel about God.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 29, 2000.

Roberta,

No, not really. I can understand rage at loss and injustice at human events, but only within our (Earthly) time-frame of referrence.

If one's belief in God allows one to believe one's soul exists FOR ETERNITY, surely any suffering on Earth is less than an instant in comparison. Sort of like my (perhaps bad) analogy to a child getting a shot.

Sorry, but I can't really see from your point of view on this.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 29, 2000.


Fact Fouler, I only get in a rage when: 1. Christians try and shove religion on me through guilt, witnessing and proseltizing, and especially squealing we are "the only true religion!" Gilda, first, why do you resort to namecalling? Secondly, why the intolerance for Christianity? You have espoused quite a bit of silliness here under the shroud of "science" (yet you have presented no scientific evidence, only abstract fluff), shall we accuse you of "witnessing" and "squealing", and "promoting"? Food for thought...fairness, respect, and tolerance you seem to desire, but do not appear to give.

2. When someone accuses me of "hating Christians" because I say I get sick and tired or having religion shoved at me, and because I happen to disagree with the accuser. I have not "shoved" anything at you, nor really addressed religious issues to any degree, yet you respond with a good deal of anger ...because you disagree with me, it appears. Why not treat people, including me, as you yourself wish to be treated? Whitman never said this by the way....but I can tell you where you can read it, lol...

3. When someone reads a poem, takes it literally, then immediately assumes I've never been around a real live animal in my life. Fair enough argument, I did shoot from the hip on this one. So shall I be boiled in oil, called names, and tar and feathered? ;)

4. When a person doesn't make a valid argument, but instead makes silly, condescending remarks. I presented several valid observations, I was not arguing any particular point.

And by the way, I read every word of FM's post, with the link to : Physics and the Mind of God, and I agree with it totally. Sounds like a Scientific Pantheist to me, a logical person. I am a Scientific Pantheist. You should read the essay, you might learn something.

This last one is amusing! Science, I love. Reading, I love. Logic, I love. And in pursuing all of those, the facts lead me to truth which lead me to be firmly convince of God. Good luck to YOU in your quest for "truth" and "peace" :)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), March 29, 2000.


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