It's no secret I would have (and would be) deleting their trollish rear ends without stop if I had the "keys". Many regulars, including myself, have basically stopped posting here, except very occasionally. In fact, the sysops made a tacit decision to let that happen when they decided to let trolling pretty much have its day here. That is, they preferred trolls to regulars.

I say that though I am good friends with a number of the sysops and do respect them to this day.

IMO, trolling (which began in earnest in Jan, 99 as I recall) inevitably begets counter-trolling, profanity and a general rise in the atmosphere. The trolling savages doomers and it savages pollies.

And, regrettably (think our government and election processes) unanswered "trolling" leaves an impact subconsciously, deny it though we do. Furthermore, asking trolls not to be "fed" is useless -- watching trolls on the Internet is like looking at a car accident. You SAY you're not going to look, but you do anyway.

I know many of you prefer this state of affairs anyway (ie, "no censorship"). I'm not particularly wanting to reopen that -- its' water under the bridge and many of us have moved on to other venues. Understanding how the "net" really works and how to "moderate" it is scarcely a science.

I do want to make another point.

Over the long run, "character" outs everywhere, including the Internet.

I have had and still have VERY intense "policy" differences with some on this forum (Flint, Decker, some others). I have, at times, questioned the motives and practices of some of these posters, often very intensely and negatively. It's no secret and I'm not apologizing. It is STILL very difficult, IMO, to discern the underlying motives of many posters.

However, I hope the following thought will help a bit:

Y2K is "in the bag". It doesn't matter which doomer or polly says this-or-that about prepping, weapons, banks, yada-yada-yada. By all means, go ahead and speak -- but at least the early history of pre- and post-rollover is done. We're just waiting to observe it personally.

Also, whether someone preps or not (and you know how strongly I urge preps) is fundamentally up to them, not up to me or anyone on this forum. Otherwise, let's bring on Daddy Government to run our lives paternalistically because we're helpless victims and get it over with.

If Y2K is a BITR (may it be so), this forum will dissolve by April or so.

If Y2K is TEOTWAWKI (and the Net stays up), it will continue.

It remains to be SEEN what role everyone here will play post-rollover. Don't be so certain Flint or Decker won't be post-rollover "heroes" in a TEOTWAWI scenario and some of us doomers post-rollover villains. By the same token, those of you who despise Milne may find yourselves amazed by him next year -- positively amazed.

Amidst the virtual flow of electrons here, real people of all stripes are fumbling their way towards understanding this very weird and, yes, once-in-a-tech-lifetime event, whatever happens.

I'm not urging some sort of dippy, "can't we please get along". Push. Push back. Push back some more.

I am saying, "prepare to be surprised, not only by Y2K, but by the people who post here." Be a little more cautious about assuming you know "who is who" and "why".

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), November 17, 1999

Answers

Message For:

You Knowwho (debunk@doomeridiots.com),

Deals aside... and actually pertaining to the other junk you kept posting this morning... AND that I deleted...

Why dont you just leave since you cant stand the people in this place?

Most are tired of your non-sense and constant badgering. If you want to keep on ridiculing this group... do it elsewhere. We really dont have time to keep tolerating your dribble.

44 Days... and counting.

Diane
(Serving D-Notice)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

"Lighten up, it's not like Y2k is a serious matter"

-Ed Yourdon

-- You Knowwho (debunk@doomeridiots.com), November 17, 1999.

I suspect our impact in the aftermath will be loud and strong. For one thng we will have the time and luxury to be angry. I think those who have kept every word said, written, or even put over the radio that proves government officials were saying one thing to some people and another to the most will be very active in trials. The information or "truth" has been kept at the end of a very literate and skilled path which is suggestive of preference or sort of an "ethnic cleansing."

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 17, 1999.

BigDog,

Thanks for the thoughts. As you know "some" of the Sysops and Moderators have differing opinions on the "delete" or "not to delete" issue.

For my part, NOW, when I DO have the time--which is far more limited-- I'll just take out the trash I see... no questions asked.

Posters can e-mail an alert to: y2ktimebomb2000@yahoo.com

Since none of us can stay on TBY2K 24/7 there may be a delay in responding.

Time's too short. if the troll-types wanna gripe, they can set up their own Flame Forum, or go back to the one that does "flame from afar."

Diane, not in the greatest of moods

Grrr

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

Goebbels would be proud Diane. You make such a tasty little Nazi.

-- You Knowwho (debunk@doomeridiots.com), November 17, 1999.

TOUGH... You Knowwho!

Live with it. You "pushed the tolerance envelope" too far here.

(Calling people names, doesn't make it so).

Please leave.

Nuf' said.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

Here, Here

Way to go...BigDog.

Truly refreshing to read your words...no sense in having namby/pamby attitudes about some things, as you so eloquently stated.

Time is growing short. Not much can change at this point.

No promises, no excuses, no explanations, no reasons need to be given to anyone for anything.

We each will stand on our own two feet to face the future, whatever it may hold, for good or bad.

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

Why can't we just set up a "filter" for YouKnowWho, and just let the server delete anything it posts. (By ISP)

It is SO obvious that YouKnowWho's sole purpose on this board is to ridicule others with it's small-minded little trellish crap. Let's just delete its stuff ON SIGHT and move on.

YouKnowWho is one of those individuals who has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SAY, but INSISTS on saying it anyway. Deleting posts by people like that isn't censorship; they never SAID anything worth reading!

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), November 17, 1999.

Censorship idea: been in a library lately? Even a library that doesn't censor it's books will keep them on different shelves. If someone kept maliciously putting (e.g.) history books in the general shelves, they wouldn't throw the books out, they'd just keep moving them back to the history section.

Why not move the trolls and flames to a "flame pit" forum. They're still in library, they're just not stuffing up inappropriate shelves.

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

Personally I find that the pollies and trolls, even the obnoxious ones, only help to strengthen my resolve to prepare. When I find myself slipping into complacentcy the goad that unintelligent and uninformed people unintentionally present is a welcome motivation. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one or two of them are doomers in disguise...the blatant stupidity and vitriolic nature of some of the posts are almost too selfconsiously extreme to be fully swallowed.

-- Ludi (ludi@rollin.com), November 17, 1999.

I wonder if "you know how" has a HARD time typeing with one hand?

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), November 17, 1999.

Diane, you cannot reason with someone that would have difficulty winning an IQ contest with a turnip. :-))

-- John (jh@NotReal.ca), November 17, 1999.

Dennis,

Phil Greenspun at MIT designed the forum software. We live within what he's created. There are certain things (not many) we can do, other's not.

Just the way it is.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

well I guess Y2kdave saw my assessement of YouKnowWho in earlier responses.

before it was deleted(?)

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), November 17, 1999.

Diane, Do I remember correctly that YouKnow and Genius are posting from the same ISP? Whether or not that is so, I appreciate whatever efforts you can expend to keep the trash picked up.

BigDog,

I think you make a good point. There are at least a few "pollies" here that, if TSHTF, I would expect to rise to the level of need.

-- (rUOK@yesiam.com), November 17, 1999.

No RUOK... different people IMHO.

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

Unlike Russ, I think this forum will roll on into the distant future. Next year, we'll be arguing about whether a given event was Y2K-related or not.

I do appreciate the fact that I have not been censored. Though on reflection, I sound rather like an indentured servant expressing happiness on being beaten. (chuckle) Once again, I think the sysops serve the forum far better by providing moral 'suasion, i.e. discouraging the venomous personal attacks that mar so many threads. What say you folks, how about giving some of our forum bullies a good, online trip to the woodshed?

I appreciate the thought, Russ. Like most folks, I simply plan to do my job through the rollover. We all depend on each other staying on duty to resolve the inevitable glitches. I do have to laugh... it's hard to imagine some of the forum pessimists giving me credit for membership in the human race, let alone gallantry.

You are right, though. The Internet is an imperfect medium through which to judge another. None of my views of forum regulars are set in stone. There may be heroes among Andy, Invar, Paul Milne, King of Spain, etc. Your advice is well taken... it's best not to let our views on people calcify.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), November 17, 1999.

Diane,

Thanks for clearing that up, I may have dreamt it. Y2k preps do lead to some strange dreams :-). The two of them do read almost identically to me.

-- (RUOK@yesiam.com), November 17, 1999.

Diane:

I'm right wing leaning slightly on the libertarian side, but you certainly have my vote for censoring nasty posts that bring nothing to the discussion.

PS-A local paper carried an AP story that attempted to totally discredit the Y2K movie. The rpms on the spin were truly spectacular.

-- Dave (aaa@aaa.com), November 17, 1999.

Hey,

We've all tried to be overly "open-minded" in the ways people choose to "morph" the forum.

Time for focus now.

Ken, despite what I think of your intentions in cyberspace and at TBY2K, you are NOT on my shin-kicking list (done with steel-toed hiking boots).

John Koskinen and Bill Clinton ARE on my list.

Diane

OH... personally, for those not quite prep ready, I'd suggest spending more time at BigDog's Prep Forum...

TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Preparation Forum (Y2K Prep Only Discussions)

http:// www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic= TimeBomb%202000%20%28Y2000%29%20Preparation%20Forum

BTW, I triggered 3 people into "getting more prepared" yesterday, by pointing out this information...

Two important releases from Clark Staten of ERRI. A new warning against anti-US/UN terrorism. (stay alert in Seattle.), interview w/ ex sov biowar scientist.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001mBe

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

Big Dog and Diane just can't stand that fact that their team is made of a bunch of uncontrollable dooming assholes who make it very clear that they cannot help themselves no matter how hard they try. Only 44 days left... no panic in the streets, no rioting... no stirring of the "herd". I bet it pisses them off plenty, and it's making me laugh harder every day.

ta ta

-- (Doomers@suck.big time!!), November 17, 1999.

You know, come to think of it... BigDog mihself is trolling by posting this non y2k related bullshit here.

I betcha Diane J. Sigher didn't even contemplate that little factoid.

Pot, kettle, black... do you GI now?

-- (Doomer Trolls@suck. big time too), November 17, 1999.

(Doomers@suck.big time!!),

I for one am delighted there is no "panic." (But God help us all if the terrorist element rises).

Am also GREATLY saddened that TPTB will allow so many to be unprepared. This is NOT a 3-day storm... no matter how much "spin" is placed on the issue.

Think globally... even though "they" say everything is "local."

*BIG SIGH*

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

(You may be next "Doomers". Want some advice? Chill out... or leave).

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

The forum gave me a thought of why the government spins its official line, and why it really must react forcefully should there be a breakdown/breakup in relationships from business or government and even to the familial level. Translating what appears to be fear, or worry, or deeply concerned, driven chaos here and the response to it, good or bad, it has an appearance of "every man for himself". Did you ever hear or read about a ship that had sunk and there was not enough room in the lifeboats for everyone? No wonder the govmint response (?), ... well maybe?

If it matters (I didn't want to put up another post, I haven't been able to keep up anyway for some time); TV news reported last night 2 stories back to back on y2k. 1st the Oregon Utilities Consortium on y2k views the event as "boring"... no big deal. 2nd report that followed w/film showed new HAZ/MAT unit given to county by the state. A fully self contained unit (similar in size to a semi-tractor rig) that will be available 24 hours a day to respond to any emergencies in the county or an even broader area. Quote "Just in case" unquote.

My local bank is of course y2k compliant, says their literature. The tellers "twitter" about the serious looking man in the suit that showed up there about a month ago and works busily in the backround with no apparent connection to any bank related duties. "Wink/Nod/Smile/Twitter" -Just an observation.

Another personal observation- Could be that west of the I-5 corridor (in the northwest)is toast. I got hung here when I tried to say why before.

One more time. Thanks&best to you.

-- maid upname (noid@ihope.com), November 17, 1999.

hey Diane,

I don't threaten people when I want to make a point. I just say it.

[expletive deleted--Sysop]

Keep studying little girl, one day you'll feel like a man. It takes a lack of cogitation, and alot of castrations but I'm sure you'll get there eventually you silly Feminazi. I have faith in your ambition.

Go ahead ban me, if ya think ya can =o)

-- (Doomers@suck. big time!!), November 17, 1999.

About

This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like-minded people.

-- About (about@about.about), November 17, 1999.

Yeah, and no taxation without representation.

Who cares what the rules say??

-- (Doomers@suck. big time!!), November 17, 1999.

Big Dog, As I just said on another thread, we are who we are. Y2K is but a very small part of each of us (that seems like a contridictory statement if there ever was one!), but it is true.

Diane, I am watching, as I type, a kitten mercifullessly chasing the tail of its mother and generally tumbling around all over the floor, (much to its mother's annoyance). All on the background of a kleenex it just shredded to pieces. I wish I could send you this "moment" to enjoy, it is a vision that certainly lifts the spirits. Kittens are like that.

Hmmm, or maybe I could send you a kitten? :-)

Stay strong, dear lady.

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

Lilly,

Have two kittenish cats. Thanks for the "moment."

Diane, tired of trolls

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1999.

Fascinating, Kenneth, how you and your doppelganger Truth@the.ready always employ the homoerotic imagery of the woodshed. Care to share with us some of your own boyhood experiences? Just how DID you get the nickname 'red?' Is that when you decided to become a shill? I trust these turbulent memories don't haunt you, Kenneth, and I eagerly await more of your dull bromides and rapier-wit (vomit). Really. We'd be so lost without you.

-- Spidey (in@Gorein.99), November 17, 1999.

Decker, you talk about hauling off the forum bullies to the woodshed. The way I hear it, bullies are big strong people who pick on little weak people. You little and weak, Ken? These "bullies" picking on little weak people? Show me, lemme at 'em!

Gad, where is the PAT (Poetry Assault Team) when you need 'em?

-- Weary (of@it.all), November 17, 1999.

My father would be deeply disturbed to learn the woodshed has homoerotic overtones... after I explained what in the hell I was talking about. (laughter) Isn't there anyone on this forum that grew up in rural America where thumping on the kids was considered a requirement of parenting?

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), November 17, 1999.

Decker,

Though we disagree passionately about myriad things, thanks for not slamming me and the other "pessimists" at the mention of our handles.

If you are going to hold down the fort where you are at come the next few months, and try to keep things together and put yourself at risk doing so - then indeed you will be a hero yourself.

Some of us have less faith in our fellow man than you. Myself out of personal experience, had decided to move the fam to a "place of safety" out of the path of risks that may impact us adversly. This isn't cowardice as some suggest as I'd be willing to face risk if it were just myself, but I have a young family to care for and I'm putting my obligations as husband and father first.

I only hope that in your decision to hang in there and sacrifice selflessly, your immediate fam doesn't lose your most necessary leadership to preserve and protect them.

But I appreciate your mention above without the slam.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 17, 1999.

Hallelujah!

Of course, the troll just *has* to start making threats after he's put on notice.

I suspect a package of his abuse and threats discretely presented -- with explanation -- to his ISP, will result in some blessed silence in parts hereabouts.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), November 17, 1999.

Diane, and/or the other threadmasters,..I've been looking for a post I began a couple months ago on scapegoating, to no avail...I've probably just missed it among the titles...been through misc., general awareness, uncategorized...(I can't remember what category I put it under). Seemed an appropos link to post here. In your mythical spare time if you come across it, email me and I'll add it, if not, not to worry. Danke.... ;-)

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 17, 1999.

As I said at the top, this wasn't intended to be a dippy thread. I expect Decker and INVAR to go at it in all sorts of further hand-to- hand combat (virtually speaking ONLY) over the coming days, weeks, maybe months.

But let this be made butt-nakedly clear:

Decker and INVAR's words about each other above say more to me about the forum I REMEMBER from a year ago than anything else could.

That forum had a lot of loud debate, disagreement and anger at times, but the poison was minimal.

As for Diane, she is in a literally no-win situation. Whatever various posters think of her, she ain't getting ANYTHING but grief from this as the months go by.

For those on the forum who are sane, whatever you/I may think about "censorship" either way, Ed Yourdon committed the keys of the forum to her to have her do AS SHE SAW FIT. And subsequent people who have contributed offline to discussions about how to handle the growing poison have continued to support that simple fact.

It's remarkable, in fact, how much input she has solicited about how to handle that responsibility. I wouldn't have bothered (I'll bet THAT comes as a surprise to some of my, er, boosters here).

Whether she or the other co-sysops delete or don't delete is their decision entirely.

In any case, back to the heart of it all -- the real line here doesn't cut across INVAR OR Decker, it cuts across INVAR, Decker, Diane, myself, etc. (you?) and those who really have no other intent than to be vile and destructive.

If we can't keep that straight, we'll ALL be divided in a moment of time by the POST Y2K spin.

..... now if only Flint could get his head out of his rear end long enough to stop being the DEVIL'S own devil's advocate .... ;-) !!

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), November 17, 1999.

Like wow, I'm blown away on the left coast.

I click into a troll thread and find INVAR & Decker reaching detente.

Kinda restores my faith in humanity & miracles, somebody pinch me!

-- flora (***@__._), November 17, 1999.

I believe Mr. YouKnowWho is training - for what I don't know. He has only one viewpoint and he never posts any Y2K related links. He should change his handle to Mr. incite, that's with a little i. He has been successful at diverting the purpose of the forum. He is a natural born literary rabblerouseer. What he doesn't understand is there is no rabble in this crowd. I think Mr. YouKnowWho is that you've taken things as far as you can in this forum. Its time to move on to bigger and better things. Graduate so to speak, we'll make whatever admission that you'd care to hear and then go somewhere else. I would suggest the Times Square Crowd. If you can get that rabble roused I'll celebrate your power over humanity and toast your inciting acumen. Your opinion reigns supreme, now take it to another level. Wouldn't mind seeing your name in the paper (whatever that might be). Members of this forum could say that we once jousted with one of the greatest rabblerousers of all time. Haven't you succeeded in everything you wanted to accomplish here?

-- Guy Daley (guydaley@bwn.net), November 17, 1999.

Big Dog

"...Many regulars, including myself, have basically stopped posting here, except very occasionally..." I have noticed this in the last couple of weeks more so this last week. "Things that make me feel sad." ;-(

"...It is STILL very difficult, IMO, to discern the underlying motives of many posters..."

I noticed a couple of small posts by you in the last couple of days and have been very curious "more here than meets the eye", and "keeping an eye on the newbie". I don't know if there is a connection, but I was on the same page with you about the last statement. I would love to know what you're thinking!! I really miss your posts and the posts of the other "veterans". Hope to see you back soon!!!

I wish the very best for you and yours in the new millennium!!

-- enquiringminds (karlacalif@aol.com), November 17, 1999.

BigDog,

Thanks. It sure ain't easy.

But... at heart I'm an optimist... who's now realistically somewhat pessimistic... and *exceptionally* P.O'd with the trolls. (So my delete key will be used more often).

C'est-ce la vie.

We just can't spend time arguing about trivia any more. (Though I've been *amazed* at the number of posters who seem to like the knock down, drag out's).

Waste of energy, IMHO. (Time to "go solar")

;-D

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 18, 1999.

Trolls have such small minds... Suck is so very pathetic, his posts having absolutely no logical content, instead being a representation of an epileptic seizure while at one's keyboard...nothing but scrambled letters.

Too bad Suck is such a coward, you see being too afraid to use logic and argue reasonably. "It's too much fun baiting people!" Is his primary thought... You know Suck, I've got a friend like you, but you know something, he is VERY,VERY lonely and hates his parents too. Sounds like a doppleganger of you!

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 18, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

maid upname said: Could be that west of the I-5 corridor (in the northwest)is toast. I got hung here when I tried to say why before. Please, provide a link.

Donna said: Diane, and/or the other threadmasters,..I've been looking for a post I began a couple months ago on scapegoating, Sorry, I couldn't find your thread, but I did find these three links. Maybe one of them will lead you to your own. The Scapegoat Society Top Ten scapegoats after TSHTF Y2K Scapegoats = Sheeple

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 18, 1999.

I'd like to think we are measured by not only our friends, but by our foes. There is something to be said for a worthy opponent, don't you think.

As for Y2K, I'd like to think the challenges ahead will bring out the best in people... not the worst. Perhaps Invar and I have had different experiences. In my life, I've seen everyday people rise to the challenge. As with any great task, Y2K will ask our nation for a share of valiant men and women. This Republic will rise or fall on the dormant greatness of common folk. We will go the "well," and the people, the heroes, we find might surprise us all.

Perhaps Invar will understand this... in my life, I have seen one Medal of Honor winner. It was an honor to salute him. If you would have been wearing the Medal... the salute would have come just as easily. Respect is possible, even among adversaries.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), November 18, 1999.