This isn't a trawl. I've recently posted some really thoughtless and offensive stuff, and I'd just like apologise once again for being so stupid and hurtful to preppers. I'm still viewing Y2K as a BITR, so I didn't think clearly how hurtful I was being to people who are deeply and genuinely concerned. It was appalingly insensive of me to post a "thought exercise" that painted a bleak picture of a TEOTWAWKI world, and it clearly upset some people with a lot more courage and integrity than me.

Please believe that I deeply regret the offence that I caused. I have nothing but admiration for people who have worked long and hard to become part of the solution rather than part of the problem. I do not agree with your beliefs - indeed, I hope you are wrong - but I do respect them, and I particularly respect your determination to act on them.

I will be sending personal apologies to anyone with a valid email address who responded to my previous posts, or who wants to mail me at my mailbox.

Again, this is not a trawl, I am genuinely contrite, and from now on, I'll stop speculating on social issues. It was stupid and wrong. I won't ask or expect you to forgive the hurt I caused, but I'll offer my respect and best wishes anyway, and promise to be more considerate in future.

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999

Answers

I too speculate on social issues,mostly reguarding how people who did not adequatly prepair when they had the chance will react towards those who did.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

--well, i personally wasn't hurt, not sure who else might have been. this whole deal of "us" versus "them" is silly. In my mind it boils down to insurance--you make real preparations for what MIGHT happen, or you are taking a whopper chance, I mean a HUGE chance. ---everytime I hear arguments against preparing, I'm reminded of those scenes from kosovo--normal, middle class people, with running water, cars, electricity--all the tyrappings of the modern world, then IN SPITE OF ALL THE WARNINGS, CLEAR TO ANYONE--they were refugees overnite, losing all they had, some of them their lives, painfully, because "it couldn't happen to them". they could have gotten out early, with all their stuff, instead they waited for something that rocked their world in a bad way. I'm not commenting on the war in general-did that already, quite a bit--just as it relates to threats, and Survivalism. Same deal with hurricanes.Real insurance-not a piece of paper, real "stuff' insurance or no insurance, it's that simple. Y2K has the potential to be the biggest problem the world has seen yet. I act accordingly. gettin down zog p.s. the net is strange, sometimes it's easy to let go, either for good or bad, and we're all human. The anonymity of it sometimes lends to writing things you might not say in person, or..the exact opposite. Our society is still struggling with this new "thing". Netiquette is evolving.

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

Apology accepted. Now GO BUY SOME BEANS COLIN!!

-- Hatti (klavine@tco.com), November 14, 1999.

zoobiezoob : I'd like to respectfully suggest that - regardless of right or wrong, and I was really, really wrong - any post from now on about social issues is going to be offensive. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just that *I* won't be doing it again, and it probably bears remembering that there are really scared people out there with genuine concerns who are going to be really hurt by any speculation about bad things happening to ANYONE after Y2K. :(

zog : I hurt people who have done their utmost to do some good, and who really didn't need reminding that most people are more petty and selfish than them. That was very small minded of me. And re. the anonymity, that's exactly why I don't use a psuedonym. There's enough information on this forum to let someone determined enough track me down. That's deliberate, and, yes, it's probably very very stupid, especially as I have a family. The thing is, I do believe in being responsible for what I say, and for apologising when I get things dreadfully wrong, which I clearly did. :(

I'm not knocking those who use fake identities. It's certainly smart.

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

That's OK Colin, we hope we're wrong too. Thanks for being a stand-up guy. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin,

I missed your "offensive" post.

I would just like to point out that Y2k is not a belief system. It is a global event. How that global event will affect our lives is naturally open to speculation.

There is no question that some places will be more unpleasant than others. However this is always true. The only really reliable conjecture is that places which already suffer from infrastructure problems will not be made better by Y2k problems.

Perhaps Y2k will not impact your life in a serious fashion. I am a compassionate person and would much prefer it if no one suffered.

Perhaps it doesn't matter to you that people in "other" countries will suffer. I personally am distressed by the Y2k global picture. It is not pretty.

In any event It behooves us all to be humble in the face of so much uncertainty. Caring for ones self and others is never a waste. Respect and compassion never go out of style. I sincerely hope that you, I and everyone else in the world is blessed with an abundance of all of the above as we move through the next 12 months.

-- River Soma (riversoma@aol.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin,I doubt you caused that much trauma.Most veterans here put up with a constant miasma of intentionaly disruptive trolls.But for goodness sakes drop a few quid and but a bulk bag of rice and beans.super cheap insurance considering what's at stake.If the doomers are wrong all is well,if the pollyannas are wrong,many misinformed people will suffer and all too many will die.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

Oh no, no, no. I've just realised what LDS stands for. It's Latter Day Saint, isn't it? It was NOT my intention to imply that I belonged to that church, and a special apology goes to them for that particular piece of idiocy. Especially as they have been giving long term sensible advice about preparation. I really didn't realise what I was doing, I used a half familiar phrase without thinking. This just gets worse and worse, and I actually feel sick with remorse in a way that I haven't felt for years. I can't believe I've been so hurtful to people that only last week I was admiring for being warm and compassionate.

If this demonstrates anything, it shows just how easily a person can turn into a spiteful moron when they're scared. If it helps you to understand my post any, I'll freely admit that I am increasingly scared by Y2K, but I don't have the courage to do anything about it and with every day that passes, I'm increasingly aware of how little time there is left. I know how stupid that is, and I despise myself for not having done more to prepare. That's why I was lashing out at the preppers. Petty spite. :(

My loving partner definitely doesn't get it, and I've pushed her tolerance about as far as I dare with my stocking, which I've just today increased to a pitiful three weeks each. I'm scared to not stock more, and thank you to those who have told me that it's not too late to "buy beans", but I'm also scared that if I do stock more at this late date, I'm just going to take food out of someone else's mouth, probably my neighbours, who I *do* know and really like. I'm scared for them too, and I don't really believe for a second that I could watch them and their children suffer without sharing, and that means less for me, so I'm scared again. I know I should have stocked lots, but I should have done it six months or a year ago. If there's one thing that I AM sure of about Y2K, it's that everyone and their dog is going to try and stock up in late December. Where is it going to come from now? I'm scared to even discuss it with the woman I love because we've had many long, reasonable discussions about it, and she STILL doesn't believe there's any cause for concern, and now she's even starting to get angry at my "irrational" behaviour. So I'm scared to take action to protect her, and I'm scared not to.

I may as well get it all off my chest. We agreed that it would be prudent to withdrawn a little cash, but I've withdrawn MOST of it and hidden it, because I'm really worried about the banks going down. But if they go, everything goes, so what's the point of having cash? I'll have a few hours to spend it, no more. It's doing too little, too late. I feel so bad about lying to her, especially as she trusts me to look after our finances. I'm considering buying a significant stock, and hiding it in the garage - which ironically has an electric door, so I'll have to leave the window open to be sure of getting to it. If she finds it pre Y2K (or after, in a BITR), she'll flip. But how can I not do it? Does it matter if she flips, as long as she's not starving? I know she'll forgive me, but I'm still betting on a BITR, and she would lose some respect and trust for me if I stocked against her will. If she finds out about the money, that will really her, and how could I ask her to trust me after that, even if I was doing it out of concern for her..

This must look really wierd following such a venemous post. To explain, I was trying to kid myself that I could avoid preparing and still survive a TEOTWAWKI by becoming a real bastard, just like in the movies. I have done several years of training in a weapons martial art which stresses control and personal responsibility, buy hey, I could turn that mindset around in a second and become an invincible Urban Warrior, the world would be mine for the taking, right? But I know I'm just kidding myself. I'm as terrified of the breakdown of law and order as the next person. I've studied history, and I have an idea just how nasty and unfair my society was before we achieved even the stunted social justice that we have today. But I don't even have to study history, I can see it happening on my TV somewhere in the world every day. I've tried to make myself believe that it can't happen here, not in my country, my town, my street. But what if it did? Would I survive, or would I just give up? And if I survived (without a stock) at what cost, to my friends and neighbours, to my partner and to myself? I just don't know, and that scares me more than the thought of the breakdown itself, because it mean that I just don't know how all those around me will react when and if they wake up to find a crisis going on.

However, this was a stupid forum to use to try and deny my fear to people who really didn't need to hear it. In a previous post, I expressed a hope that if things went wrong, we'd see a period of martial law - and yes, I see the irony and stupidity of boasting about looting when I also want soldiers on the streets. Here's what I'm saying: "I'm scared. I don't know what I'll do. I don't know what anyone will do. Someone step in at the last moment and make it all right."

I'll shut up soon. One last thought - I'm pretty disgusted with myself for even writing down those cruel thoughts about my neighbours. Two of them are policemen, and if things DO go wrong even in a minor way, it occurs to me that I'll be relying on them to keep order. I'm going to go and talk to them all, and I'm going to keep trying to persuade them to stock right up to the last moment. I know they'll think I'm wierd, but I'll be happy for them to laugh at me sometime well after Y2K. Maybe I can persuade them to do what I say rather than what I lack the moral fibre to do myself.

Once again, sorry for the offence. If anyone still has a problem with what I said here, please, please contact me and I'll try to make it right.

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin,

Apology accepted... not that you could upset me much since I am a dog...

Hi Riversoma... How was the "river dance"????

snoozin' on the porch...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin:

While you're on the bulletin board, and while you're reforming your approach, let me suggest you adopt something of the American style for SPITTING IT OUT!! Like, for example: "Oops! Sorry guys. And I'll try not to piss on my own shoes next time." I can;lt imagine anyone checking in has time to read four paragraphs of self-immolation.

By the way, would like to hear something about your article on silver coins in wishing wells as anti-bacterial agents. Thanks.

-- SH (squirrel@hunter.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin --

Apology accepted. Although I read the post and did not think it overly 'offensive', particularly in light of some of the obvious idiocy that gets posted here nearly every day. Ill-thought out, perhaps, but not 'in-your-face' intentionally aimed at particular individuals.

And I will point out that it is very easy to get drawn into the ad hominem attacks, strawman arguments, etc. that appear to be among the more popular methods of engaging in discourse on this, or indeed, any other internet forum. Things we would never think of doing in person become 'first choice' in cyberspace for some reason.

-- just another (another@engineer.com), November 14, 1999.

Squirrel Hunter: I will dig out the source of that silver advice. And I'll "spit out" an explanation for my verbosity. I felt shitty about the stuff I posted, and it took me four long paragraphs of pouring out my soul to even begin to feel better about it. :(

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin: Maybe you were thinking LSD?

Don't sweat it big guy. If you start apologizing, then we all are gonna have to start. :)

-- a (a@a.a), November 14, 1999.

No offence here, Colin. IMHO it takes a genuine careing individual to admit wrongs and ask forgivness. Indeed, I hope you are right and I am wrong about the outcome of Y2K.

What convinced my thought pattern regarding this issue more than any other, was the decision by our Govn.to spin their "stay-calm" message BEFORE Remeditation and testing was completed (and yet to be completed).

For instance: It was reported in Jan. 99 that "fears of Y2K panic have prompted the federal government to begin quietly preparing a media strategy designed to assuage public fears of blackouts or other potential infrastructure failures. John Koskinen, assistant to President Clinton and chairman of the White House's Y2K council, has entered into discussions with a public- relations firm........During a December closed-door meeting held by the council at Federal Reserve Board headquarters, attendees bemoaned negative media coverage and suggested staging "community cooperation" events to calm jitters and spur positive press coverage"

We have entered into the final phase of preparation, not only as an individual citizen, but for every govn. agency and private/public infrastructure. These last six weeks and most probably the first three months of 2000 may test the very endurance of patience. Positive spin is about to reach high gear.

None of us can be right all the time. Neither can we be always wrong. We will share together, like it or not.

I vote for forgiveness!

-- Tommy Rogers (Been there@Just a Thought.com), November 14, 1999.

This certainly points out the difficulty of the dilemma that this unknowable y2k presents. And many of us are alone in our preparing. Isolated, it's easy to get tangled up in ones own thoughts, especially against the weight of an entire world telling us everything is all right. We scramble in our minds to find a way out of the double bind when preparing means alienating the ones you are most trying to protect. Sometimes in the scramble, we think outloud, but these are just thought processes.

I am of the firm, indubitable conviction that it's best to prepare quietly and alone if there is domestic resistance.

Colin, for whatever it is worth, I think Sysman said it best. You are a stand-up guy. I know my respect for you is intact.

-- (resigned@this.point), November 14, 1999.

Ahhh, one of my favorite subjects. How people behave and react in cyberspace may derserve some inspection.

To begin, it helps to keep in mind that we are communicating with text. This can be easy to overlook since we a have, as a species, an incredible propensity to act "as if". Despite the use of emoticons and even deliberate attempts to be precies, succint, or what-have- you, we are certainly disabled. Our disabilities include lack of eye contact, body language, and inflextion that accompanies normal speech. Other, obvious liablilities include time lag during the interchange, and, despite the globalization going on, the minor differences in meaning people attribute to things based on locality.

Just Another said "for some reason". I too have had my share of arguments in forums. Some were heated, but polite and satisfying. Not every strong topical discussion can end in growth and greater understanding and with benefits to all conferees. I have also experienced some very petty, crass, emotionally charged debates. Who knows, those types of discussions might just server as a method of venting.

I think we need to ask the question implied by Just Another's statement. What is the reason for some of the cyber-social phenomena we see? I can think of a host of possible explanations, and I am sure other's will too.

One of my pet theories is the more obvious one. In a social situation, we often find ourselves conciously or unconsciously editing our behaviour and the degree to which we express ourselves in a frank, open manner. We might even hide our lack of understanding or carefully prepare our statments in order that they might skirt issues or realities about ourselves.

Being interested in intellectual matters, I can empathize with Just Another's critique, but I have a hard time with our tenedency to be condescending towards other peoples thinking and capacites. That last post was more condescending than a productive critique. Here I risk a circular criticism, but I am venturing forth to in the hopes of performing the latter in place of the former.

Along with noting the disabilities and missing information that is inherit in this media, out of fairness and for the sake of clariy, we might want to also note the postive side of the issue for contrast.

While there is a certain netiquette, that at least provides a basic structure and order for those who want to follow it to abide by, the lack of such is still meaningful. What we have here is a two-edged sword. We have the liberating aspect of pulling back the social facade. That facade is, in many respects, a functional trait that can benefit group interactions and prevent undue focus on a single individual in a group setting. The facades and social rules are mostly a contextual issue that serves to provide direction, order, and harmonious group interactivity.

Here, we can ignore things more easily, (if we would only choose to do that more often) we are less likely to get escorted out for not agreeing with the group. We are less likely to cause or experience riot. Though the pen may be mightier than the sword, sticks and stones may break my bones but ... The point should be clear that the slap in the face for our rudeness or lack of forethought is purely verbal in a forum and the pain we incur is determined by our sensitivities and self knowledge/control.

To sum it up, we might want to tolerate the wide spectrum of ideas, thoughts, emotions, intellectual levels, etc., that we encounter here. We have the benefit of a stripping away of a certain level of pretentiousness that gives us a different insight into human nature and the psychology of interaction. The same balance of truthhood and falsehood exists. A person could be REALLY speaking their mind or fabricating a persona of increadible proportions. You might be getting a real insight into a person's depths or a facade created by another facade.

Discernment, observation, and deduction are always the lamps at the side of the road in my view. Despite my own personal disgruntlement with the bars that lift on the repressed in online forums, I am seeing more and more the benefits and insights that are delivered by this medium in our brave new world.

I would hope that we can begin to see the errors and traps in criticisms of other's thinking processes or positions. People think, people feel, and they see things in a multitude of ways. There might be wisdom in the meta-concept that we might be wrong too. Our perspectives may be tainted as much by our own filters as the ideas about things that we relate. I have found the greatest value in recognizing more what I don't know and seeing how imprecise and narrow even the great storehouse of human knowledge to date may in fact be.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to any contributions from this distinguished forum on the topic.

-- Lord Jagged (dancers@the end of time.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin,

Kudos to you!! It is always difficult for us "grow up" guys to admit where we may have caused another pain. It shows what type of person you are that you are even concerned about it. :)

ABout the preparations/supplies. That's a difficult delimma. Let's see, I'm a religious fella, but i won't "bore" you with my beliefs. Instead, lets go this route: I was raised "fifties" style. In our house, my father sometimes did things that drove my mom nuts, but because he did it out of love, he was forgiven. She never lost respect for him, because she knew he cared enough about her and we kids to take a chance now and then.

How far do you think you need to go? A few bags of beans and rice. A case or two of veggies. Maybe some chili?

I have found in the past with MY wife, that if i want to get something for myself that she disagrees with, i must take it out of my "stuff". In ohter words, i must give up something that is solely mine for something else that i would like. I went without lunches for a week in order to buy a nice set of binoculars for camping. I chose to forgo the usual "splurges" and saved my weekly "running" money to buy other things. (Like all of the left-over lightsticks at the stores this year. I bought about 30 last year, and they came in so handy up camping that SHE helped me buy them THIS year! :))

And so it goes. If she has the character she must (After all, she IS married to a fella like you) then she may not understand, but she will probably INDULGE your "whim". :)

And isn't that what being a loving mate is all about?

Good luck and God bless. David

-- DavePrime (the_tv_guy@hotmail.com), November 14, 1999.

Wow Colin,

You are a real man, and I am glad you are here. It is amazing to see the strength and power of humility. So many people think it is a weakness, and fail to tap its power.

Your fear is certainly understandable, but I'll tell you what helped to calm mine: My preps. Just keep buying stuff, and you will feel better and better. Buy stuff you are going to use anyway, and make sure you have a way to keep warm. And put together a plan for water. Your fears are only proportional to your preps (or absence thereof.)

Hang in there, Buddy, and if your girlfriend dumps you over all this, your integrity will ensure companionship in the future.

-- semper paratus (always@ready.now), November 14, 1999.

Colin, is it possible for you to stash supplies in a left luggage locker? A rented garage or shed? A friend's house?

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin, you think too fucking much. Do what you gotta do, and if someone doesn't approve, point out the door. You're a grown-up now. WORKING FOR A LIVING EARNS THE PRIVILEGE TO MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS.

-- StanTheMan (heidrich@presys.com), November 14, 1999.

---colin, just a thought, I know that it's a real hassle to own a gun in england, but I have heard that black powder firearms are still quite legal, as long a you join some sort of club. Now granted, it's a single shot world then, but modern black powder firearms are extremely robust, reliable, powerful and accurate. It's a good option, would beat hell out of trying to defend yourself with a tennis racket, for instance.........or a cricket bat..or whacker, or whatever they are called...........hmmm...must have whopper crickets over there, the trout must be gigantic...........

dos pistolas el zoggo

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin,

I have some experienced some of the anxiety you seem to be experiencing. Recently I ordered a gas mask because I believed it prudent and I went through this whole episode about whether I would get laughed at for buying it, or would it be crimminal if I had one and the rest of my family didn't. Should I buy one for each of my family ( brothers, sisters, mother, neices, my nephew ) plus all my Aunts, Uncles, and Grandmother ? Where would it stop ?

Finally I realized I only had one obligation and that was to myself. If I was married I would have a legal and moral obligation to my wife and kids. I would still love my relatives, but I have no normal legal or moral requirement to provide for them, unless they have been ruled incompetant and placed in my legal custody.

You see, that is part of the pain and privilege of being an Adult, an Adult gets to and has to make decisions and live with the result of them whether they turn out bad or good. If you make a bad decision as an Adult, at least it was your decision to make.

As far as planning goes, at this point just do the best you can without bankrupting yourself or losing your job. Try to be relaxed about preps, not lax or intense ( don't do nothing, nor get preps for neighbors, concentrate on your own family ).

I would also advise no talking to neighbors, not at this point.

Just my two cents worth, hope it helps.

-- Stanley Lucas (StanleyLucas@WebTv.net), November 14, 1999.

Colin,

Maybe Old Git, being a fellow Brit, can render a more authoritative opinion, but when I read your previous post and saw the responses, I thought, "Language barrier". Someone once said something along the line of "the Americans and British are devided by a common language." I knew you were just speculating, and not trying to jerk anyone's chain, but maybe that comes from being a long time Monty Python fan(G).

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin, I'm sure your apology is accepted by everyone reading this who may have felt an apology was due. Nerves are starting to fray a little on both sides, and I don't think that situation will improve as the days tick down.

-- I'm Here, I'm There (I'm Everywhere@so.beware), November 15, 1999.

Colin:

Just a couple of things.

If you make a purchase from the store without taking the last item, you have not caused someone to go without. The system is working right now.

If you buy a little extra, you would be in a position to help someone later. I'm buying toilet paper, rice and tuna fish right now because I know my neighbor and his wife don't have a clue and will need help.

You are correct about cash on hand. A few commodities purchased now have more utility than cash on hand in the event of trouble.

In the past two years there have been numerous antecdotal comments about the tension preperation has caused with spouses. Deal with it as the rest of us have.

In my case, it escalated into table pounding shouting holding my ground. In the meantime I would give my wife senate reports and news articles to read. After a while she refused to read them when I handed them to her, she didn't want to hear about it.

However, this created an awareness and as time has gone by she now understands there is an undefined possibility for loss of utilities and problems with food availability. She now sees a few buckets of rice and beans and a few cases of canned goods in the basement and it gives her a measure of satisfaction, y2k or not. Many times she has been saved a trip to the store for some necessity because I told her to use whatever she needs, that's why it's there. You actually want to turn the inventory over, not let it sit.

If you get drunk and blow your paycheck in a card game she has reason to bitch. If you buy ten tubes of toothpaste and a case of toilet paper at the dollar store how mad can she get? You're buying everyday items that will be used anyway.

I wouldn't worry about buying guns. If things get bad they will be a dime a dozen. Learn from the past. A soldier will trade anything you want for a case of whiskey.

Even King Solomon in all his splendor and with all his wealth could not just walk in a grocery store and pull finished goods off the shelf. It's a modern day miracle, take advantage of it. Every purchase you make puts food on someone else's table and money in their pocket.

Regards,

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@xout.erols.com), November 15, 1999.

One caveat: Your, mine, Ed Yourdon's, Mr. K's, and anybody's else's "predictions" are merely conclusions (right now) coming from our current knowledge, our current assumptions (and prejudices), our biases towards the world, and our past experiences. Most especially, our predictions may be skewed by the political or economic effect we want to create: and these hidden biases are MOST DANGEROUS, MOST INCEDUOUS most especially from those who claim they have NO political, educational, or emotional interests beneath the surface.

I hope I make it very plain that I consider educating newcomers most important - if they prepare for some level of uncertainity against some dangers of failure in some systesm, these mental and physical preparations will probably allow that person and his/her family to withstand the actual failures - reagardless of what might really happen.

---

If you are clear about your predictions, and if you are clear in stating that you - alone - are responsible for the prediction, you have nothing to apologize for. If others read your story (your predictions) and become uncomfortable enough to resume/begin actions, then your story has had a purpose. If others, "over-react" - then that is their decision - certainly yours is not the only source of informaiton out there. (Further, "over-react" MIGHT BE the correct response - none of us know what is really the correct level of response right now!)

If another party (or parties) has told you to retract certain dire predictions, then you (personally) need to decide what level of compliance you'll give that perty. (To oneself be true - is an appropriate warning here. In politics on mattters this serious, there is little available publically that is above being used by unscrupluous politicians....)

Nobody (at least on earth) knows the actual future.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 15, 1999.

Everyone here is entitled to their opinion, and discourse is to be expected...as long as it's CIVIL.

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), November 15, 1999.