To: The Federal Bureau of Investigation Re: Project Megiddo

I am taking the liberty to speak on behalf of all the groups, institutions, and individuals named in your public document entitled "Project Megiddo". I am not a member of any of them per se, nor was I elected to do so. But as your project and the recent media stories that accompany your infamous meeting in Charlotte, NC demands a response in kind, I feel there will be little or no disagreement [from those I speak for] with the remainder of this statement.

Feel free to use this document as part of your ongoing propaganda.

For the past two weeks, it wasn't a matter of responding, but to whom this letter should be written. I thought at first to address the Police Chiefs themselves, the media, or the select non-governmental organizations who obviously conspired with you in slandering so many innocent people. But after reading "Project Megiddo" from your website and much contemplation, our response would be best served to you, and to a candid world.

At first glance, I found your thesis so unbelievable, I waited for a retraction. With none given, we must conclude this to be the "official" policy of the FBI, hence the Federal Government. It would show more respect if you would just admit that Bible believers ( especially New Testament believers ) are a threat to National Security at year's end.

Any worded response will simply be used as more propaganda against us. You have masterfully set the stage for violence at the turn of the century. Even if an illegal assault by law enforcement ( most of whom will be on duty at that time ) against us is met with lawful resistance, it will be used to confirm all the propaganda, and justify more drastic actions to be taken against us.

We are in a box. We have been cornered. We have been ambushed. Most would think the only way a person could distance themselves from this perceived "threat" would be to distance ourselves from our own religious beliefs; to denounce our Biblical teachings; to deny what we know is true, and to swear blind allegiance to what our Holy Scriptures call evil.

NEVER...

Let us first state that your project will fail ( It has been written ) . It is failing already. In fact, your report, Project Megiddo has been our greatest recruitment asset since April 19, 1993. Project Megiddo is being distributed ( in it's entirety ) to priests, ministers, pastors, and subsequently, their congregations. Many have prepared. Many more will. They will prepare and stand against you because you have proven yourselves to be the enemy to Christian people beyond any reasonable doubt, and therefore the enemy to the vast majority of the people of this nation.

Our sources inform us that morale at the FBI is at an all-time low. There is dissention among the ranks. The stained image you have given yourselves over the last 7 years, the growing distrust both inside and outside your agency, and now being asked to stand behind Project Megiddo. No wonder so many local police want nothing to do with your or your domestic terrorism activities. They are learning, like many us of already know, who the real terrorists

are. Respect for the FBI and the Justice Department has all but hit bottom. So, for those of you in the FBI who are now considering resigning and removing yourselves from what has become a rogue agency, you will find friends in the civilian population. But you should make your resignations public, and as soon as possible. For after Jan 1, 2000 - this "olive branch" will be removed from the eagle's talon.

To the remainder of you ( and your minions ) , we fully expect violence to occur around Y2K, but we expect it to come from you. Yes, we fully expect you to initiate force against us or some other innocent bystanders. You will then, of course blame us. You will demonize us further. There will be calls for our incarceration. Our weapons. Even our deaths. We expect all of this. We have made peace with our Lord, and ourselves on this issue. You will then attempt to carry out the wishes of a government gone mad.

BE ON NOTICE

If the above actions are carried out against us, words such as terrorist, hate-monger, extremist, etc. will no longer have meaning to us. WE WILL HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO LOOSE. History has shown that these types of people are the most difficult to subdue. History has also shown that upon such oppression, the oppressed are known to retaliate against those who falsely pointed fingers. Remember: They had nothing left to loose. Due to your dubious "insta-check" program, you should know what we already know: You are out numbered.

We will not surrender our Faiths. We will not surrender our Constitution. We will not surrender our Sovereignty. We will not surrender our weapons, our food or our homes. And we will not fix your stupid computers. And yes, America ( especially Christians ) will hopefully withdraw its cash from your banks by the end of the year, and if that destroys your banking system, well.that's just not our problem.

That's what you're really afraid of, isn't it?

We know the IRS expects millions of non-filers next year. We know they're been hiring hundreds to work in their Criminal Investigations Division. We know what you're training them for. Forget it. When all these Bible-believers who once believed your lies about us see what you have to say about them, they won't pay you any blood money either.

You have, in fact, painted yourselves into your own box. While you're watching us, you won't be watching the people who will simply take their phones off the hook at midnight on New Year's Day. You won't be watching all the computer hackers draining funds from all those accounts. And you won 't be around to deal with any social chaos - all because you will do as you are told - keep an eye on those Christians. Remember that article "Terms of Surrender" that made many of you so nervous? Well, you never surrendered. You never met any of the terms. Now, you must face the music.

Yes, we are a threat to the NEW WORLD ORDER. We are a threat to bar-code tattoos. We are a threat to global governance. We are a threat to your new-age paganism. We are a threat to your cashless society. We are a threat to your public brainwashing school system. We are a threat to your relevance on society. We are a threat to your illegal control of this nation  and the world. We are the people that will expose you. We are the people who would rather stand, fight, and die than follow your path.

.AND WE ARE DAMN PROUD OF IT.

We will not surrender, period. No matter how many of us you jail, kill or demonize. Check your history. Even feeding us to the lions didn't work. So, save us your "hate speech." The American Christian Community ( that sleeping giant ) has been awakened. We will stand against you. We will be victorious. We will survive. How do we know? It's already been written. So is everything else you will try to use against us. While you're busy wearing out copies of the Turner Diaries, try reading the Bible ( you'll find the last chapter very disturbing - your side looses ) . After that, go get a copy of "Atlas Shrugged" ( Ayn Rand ) , Unintended Consequences ( John Ross ) , "The Mitzvah"

( Neil & Zellman ) or maybe even "Cracking the Liberty Bell" ( J.J. Johnson ) . Then you can better understand what you're really up against.

With Project Megiddo, you have finally pulled off your masks, just like King George of England in the 18th century. Today, we have a population better armed and prepared than those who won this nation's Liberty. Thus, on behalf of all of us, I will finish this response with the same battle cry that defeated such tyranny:

NO KING BUT KING JESUS! ( That should raise your blood pressure )

Waiting for the ball to drop,

-- Join the Militia of Montana Email Alert List by writing to: militia@montana.com with "SUBSCRIBE" in the Subject Line!

M.O.M. Archived posts at: http://www.montana.com/militiaofmontana

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-- SCAREDY CAT (Scared@now.com), November 12, 1999

Answers

Give us a link, please.

Though you have many who may believe in your thesis, don't make selling a site your major push. Not on this forum.

We will welcome the link - for much comment, etc.

-- TruthSeeker (truthseeker@ seektruth.always), November 12, 1999.

ah oh...

Somebody left the loonie bin door open!!

-- Mr Normal (oh@my.god), November 12, 1999.

Take a Chill Pill SCARDY,

Christianity has as much (if not more) blood on its hands as any other self-righteous group. Need I remind you of the Aztecs, American Indians, Witches, and more recently, the Kosovo Albanian Muslims that Christianity attempted to "ethnically cleanse" from these people's OWN HOMELANDS.

Christianity has an independent state all to itself, it's called "Vatican City" and it's in Rome. Feel free to return there anytime you feel threatened here in the United States. I'm sure the Pope would love for you to reunite and come back home for good. Otherwise, shut up, sit down and obey the laws of the United States.

Don't like the laws you say? Then vote your people into office and CHANGE the Laws. Don't have a MAJORITY? Then deal with it legally or leave. IT'S THE WAY OUR REPUBLIC BY DEMOCRACY WORKS.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 12, 1999.

You failed to mention the Inqusition.

-- Earl (earl.shuholm@worldnet.att.net), November 12, 1999.

This is at the heart of my concerns with c4i. I mean 9 MILLION rounds .223 in ONE day by ONE dealer in the Mid West.

This sentiment, on both sides, is leading straight to catastrophy.

May God help us all!!

-- Z (Z@Z.Z), November 12, 1999.

Another nut cracked.

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), November 12, 1999.

Oh yeah, I forgot to list the Inquisition.

(Thanks Earl!)

8-)

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 12, 1999.

>Don't have a MAJORITY? Then deal with it legally or leave.

Isn't this what the ATF told the Davidians before they wiped them off the face of Texas?

Look, the FBI is creating trouble. They're provoking paramilitary orgs like the militias (which are perfectly legal and have many black and jewish members, btw - but don't believe that until you hear it on t.v.). Why would our G-men do this? Same reason the ATF staged Waco: they're looking to boost their legitimacy and their claim to bigger budget allocations. "Look! In the woodpile! It's a demon! It's a right-wing militia demon and it's gonna GITCHA! - unless you give us the huge budget we need to 'save you.'" That's what's going on here; it's no more rational or credible than Revelations. After Ruby Ridge and Waco, anyone the FBI points it's bony, bloody finger at has VERY GOOD REASON to fear for their life! Taking this into account, it's fairly audacious of you, GoldReal, to fall into the mental groove the FBI has cut for you and assume the militias are the "troublemakers" in this scenario. On the other hand, if they are pushed to the wall with illegal search warrants, unprovoked gunfire on their residence, and helicopters strafing their children - as at Waco - they will damn sure fight back, as they've indicated. They've been targeted as "threats" BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE. And you scold THEM for what you assume/imply is circumvention of the law. You've got it backwards, my friend.

Our Constitutional rights, such as the Fourth Amendment right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure of our persons and effects, exists precisely to protect law abiding "whackos" from a "tyranny of the majority." That's what we're talking about here, GoldReal. Your dislike of their religious rhetoric is just as irrelevant to the matter as is the rhetoric itself. The Feds are pushing everyone's buttons. The fundamentalists get put to death, and you lose more of your civil liberties in the name of wiping them out. Who wins?

-- Dr. Polymorph (Fedskillmore@thanfundiesdo.com), November 12, 1999.

This sounds serious.

...(not hitting the)...

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 12, 1999.

"When the governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

-- Thomas Jefferson (this.is.for@you.GoldReal), November 12, 1999.

Goldreal,

Please do some research on how our Government actually operates. It's tiring to hear from people that think "everything" is just as we were taught. Example, There is video documentation of the CIA and Bush running drugs from Indo-China through Panama - in to the U.S. There never has been a "war" on drugs. Our Government makes a lot of money selling them to it's citizens.

Please wake up.

-- Gregg (g.abbott@starting-point.com), November 12, 1999.

Dr. Polymorph,

If you're going to quote me, at least keep it in context. Like I said,

"Don't like the laws you say? Then vote your people into office and CHANGE the Laws. Don't have a MAJORITY? Then deal with it legally or leave. IT'S THE WAY OUR REPUBLIC BY DEMOCRACY WORKS."

Dr. Polymorph, which part of the above paragraph don't you comprehend? Or is it you don't LIKE our form of government because it attempts to be fair to all, which is CONTRARY to your CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE and Dictator God?

Isn't this the real reason Christians seem to be continuously in conflict with our form of government? Their God is a Dictator God but the U.S. is a democratically elected Republic. Oil and water, they don't mix.

And while I'm at it, this whole "we are over taxed" argument Christians always make is A-1 bogus. If their Dictator God didn't instruct them to pay Him 10% of their income, they wouldn't BE overtaxed. You want a tax cut? Talk to YOUR GOD. Maybe He'll cut HIS taxes you are obliged to pay HIM!

I don't doubt for a second if MY taxes went up 10% across the board, I'd be hurting. But hey, I'm not a Christian so my tax rate "feels" just about right, when I consider all the benefits I get for the money I pay. You know, secure from foreign invasion, good roads (at least here) decent air and water (compared to other industrialized countries) great museums, parks, lakes, rivers, the less fortunate having food & shelter (better, but still working on it), quality healthcare for ALL (in the works), etc...

NEXT.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 12, 1999.

Gregg,

There is video documentation of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Baker, David Koresh, Jim Jones, extorting (IMHO) money from poor people who can't afford to buy medicines in order to finance their FILTHY RICH lifestyles and HUGH INFLATED EGOS.

I'm getting bored. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Let's move on.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 12, 1999.

Is this guy trying to make a case FOR Project Megiddo? I think this is why it was created in the first place. Just doesn't come across as a true Christian to me.

-- Lurking on the sidelines (Alw@ys lurking.com), November 12, 1999.

"...my tax rate "feels" just about right, when I consider all the benefits I get for the money I pay."

You, along with all other taxpayers, are only (barely) paying off the interest on the national debt. Not a penny goes towards your perceived "benefits" - those are paid for with borrowed money.

"You know, secure from foreign invasion,"

We'll see. Especially since it was reported yesterday that two entire divisions out of the ten that comprise the US Army are unfit for combat. Additionally, we no longer exercise a "launch on warning" capability of our nuclear forces. We have many enemies in this world.

"good roads (at least here)"

Repairs on roads, bridges and other such infrastructure are almost halted in many areas, yet welfare payments continue.

"decent air and water (compared to other industrialized countries)"

Have you ever heard of Pollution Credits?

"great museums,"

I for one have little interest in museums, and see no reason why I should be forced to pay for your enjoyment of such amusements.

"parks,"

Same comments as above.

"lakes, rivers,"

Let the spoilers of same pay for their cleanup, not I.

"the less fortunate having food & shelter (better, but still working on it),"

What you mean is more and better ways to squeeze yet more money from my wallet, at the point of a gun. "From those according to their ability, to those according to their need." - Karl Marx. Before being taxed to death, Americans practiced charity through churches, synagogues and charitable foundations, as well as at a personal one-on-one level. Few can afford to do so anymore.

"quality healthcare for ALL (in the works), etc..."

Same comments, see quote by Karl Marx above.

-- PKM (.@...), November 12, 1999.

I'd like to add that we have written into our Constitution, something you will never hear about from a judge or prosecutor. It's called Jury Nullification. You as a citizen serving on a jury have the right and RESPONSIBILITY to try/examine the law as well as the case. If it is a bad law, you must nullify it. Please remember this if you get the oppurtunity to serve, and bring it up, just to raise awareness if for no other reason.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), November 12, 1999.

Has anyone bothered to consider the FBI's timing in their announcement of MEGIDDO? It happened to come out about a week BEFORE the release of the follow-up WACO documentary video, which someone even provided a link to last week here. Talk about obvious diversionary tactics! FBI=Federal Bureau of Incineration FBI=F****** Bungling Idiots FBI=Federal Blackshirt Ideologists

-- profit of doom (doom@helltopay.ca), November 12, 1999.

Realgold, God manages to run the whole creation on 10% and with only 10 basic regulations. He doesn't even get the whole 10%. Some dead beats don't pay their fair share.

-- Lumber Jack (johnsellis@webtv.net), November 12, 1999.

Hey-Glad to see you are still lurking around dogs@zianet ! :-) Things seem to be getting anxious around here. Put your hope and trust in the only true God. Goldreal-you would like him if you got to know him!! Time is short...

-- (I Believe (Repent@time is now.com)), November 12, 1999.

GoldReal This Country was founded on Christian doctrine and prospered because of it.We said the Lord's Prayer as a group,out loud, every morning before class in a Government run school.Now it's illegal.We recited the Pledge of Allegience every morning as well.Roe vs. Wade has lead to partial birth abortions advocated by the President of the United States.No,I don't like what this country has become.Leave??NO WAY!!!I'm going to stay and fight for the principles and rights that were instilled and bestowed upon me,and all Americans,by the Constitution of The United States.Our founding fathers would expect no less.God Bless America!

-- I pledge allegience to the flag (one Nation@under.God), November 12, 1999.

You, along with all other taxpayers, are only (barely) paying off the interest on the national debt. Not a penny goes towards your perceived "benefits" - those are paid for with borrowed money.

I don't particularly agree how my tax money is spent either. Got any alternatives.

We'll see. Especially since it was reported yesterday that two entire divisions out of the ten that comprise the US Army are unfit for combat. Additionally, we no longer exercise a "launch on warning" capability of our nuclear forces. We have many enemies in this world.

Got a link about the divisions? I missed that one. In regards to the "launch on warning", in a nuclear war I don't think it matters who launches first-we will be screwed.

Repairs on roads, bridges and other such infrastructure are almost halted in many areas, yet welfare payments continue.

In may neck of the woods you can't drive anywhere without running into an orange construction barrel. Still plenty of infrastructure work going on around here.

Have you ever heard of Pollution Credits?

Yes. It is based on how much another local company has decreased their pollution level. Don't necessarily agree with it. I agree with you that every company should be held accountable for their own pollution level.

I for one have little interest in museums, and see no reason why I should be forced to pay for your enjoyment of such amusements.

I for one enjoy going to the museum often and have no problem being "forced" to pay for other's enjoyment. Especially during the photography exhibitions.

Same comments as above.

I also enjoy the parks. Around here we have a very good park system that many people enjoy.

Let the spoilers of same pay for their cleanup, not I.

I enjoy many outside activities, and that includes fishing. Some areas of the country it is big business itself. I have in the past taken part in a river cleanup program locally. It was actually enjoyable being outside instead of an office, and being part of the solution, instead of waiting for someone else to fix it.

What you mean is more and better ways to squeeze yet more money from my wallet, at the point of a gun. "From those according to their ability, to those according to their need." - Karl Marx. Before being taxed to death, Americans practiced charity through churches, synagogues and charitable foundations, as well as at a personal one- on-one level. Few can afford to do so anymore.

Quoting Karl Marx??? Once again, I agree with you here to a point. Unfortunatley, charities are not able to handle all of cases they get now. IMHO people give less to charities than they did in the past.

Same comments, see quote by Karl Marx above.

Karl Marx again??? In a perfect world, everyone would have health care. Ain't going to happen any time soon, so we try to do what we can.

It would be great if every individual in this GREAT nation would be able to say where tax dollars are to be spent, but IMHO that is an impossibility. Too many conflicting opinions, as this forum can attest to.

We now return you to your regular broadcast.

-- Lurking on the sidelines (Alw@ys lurking.com), November 12, 1999.

PKM,

You stated:

"Before being taxed to death, Americans practiced charity through churches, synagogues and charitable foundations, as well as at a personal one-on-one level. Few can afford to do so anymore. "

I say:

Back when churches, synagogues and charitable foundations were the only places for those in need to go, it was worse than welfare. Here's how.

Old Scenario: My house floods and is destroyed, along with all I own. My neighbors help re-build it, donating all the materials and labor. I help as I can. The rest of my life, I feel a debt of gratitude to these people.

Compare that to,

Modern Scenario:

My house floods and is destroyed, along with all I own. The government buys my home and I relocate to higher ground. I eventually re-pay the loan and feel indebted to NO ONE. I have fully recovered my material possessions, as well as my sense of self-worth and self- esteem. I'm once again an EQUAL member of society in both MY eyes and my neighbor's eyes.

In the Modern Scenario, my neighbors do not have to foot the bill by themselves. From a mere fraction of a cent of their tax money, both them and myself end up better off.

Your old thoughts and ideas do not fit modern society. You somehow have become stagnated, wishing to return to those nostalgic "good ol days" when the poor man was kept in his place by default of the system.

Today, the "unfortunate" man need not feel indebted to anyone for seeking a helping hand when he truly needs it because not everyone in the U.S. is RELIGIOUS and therefore should NOT be required to seek help ONLY from religious based organizations in times of need. It's called "choice", it's called SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE and it's the only thing preventing the U.S. from being completely taken over by the likes of the Right Wing Republicans such as the House Managers who railroaded their treasonous impeachment attempt through congress because they didn't "like" the guy.

What if the Church didn't "like the guy" in need of a helping hand? What if he was the wrong color? In the 30's...40's...50's...60's...today??? Then what would he do? Steal to survive? Die?

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 12, 1999.

>And yes, America ( especially Christians ) will hopefully >withdraw its cash from your banks by the end of the year,

Now lemme get this straight, in your mythology Jesus kicks over the tables of the money changers, and you "Christians" are running the banks to fill your hands with cash, and also gold coins? Have I gotten this down correctly?

I also assume you didn't read about the bust on a Y2Ker? The Y2Ker with a trailer full of dynamite, pipe bombs, and such? He was concerned someone might steal his food.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 12, 1999.

Correction, it was not a "treasonous impeachment attempt", it was a "treasonous impeachment". They succeeded on the impeachment, but he was found NOT GUILTY in the Senate Trial.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 12, 1999.

Wow, GoldReal; don't blow an o-ring there buddy.

What I see you saying here, is that Christians have wrong ideas, and that these wrong ideas are the cause of the conflict. "Oil and water don't mix," and therefore there is no place for them in America. This is just bigotry, is it not? You sidestep the Constitutionality issue, and, like the FBI, demonizes these people not on the basis of law but on the basis of what they belive. Unless you're a Nazi or a Communist or something, that's wrong. This is America, buddy.

I'm not a Christian - I think christians are whackos, some more than others. But this isn't any reason, much less justification, to kill them off. Most of the people I love and admire are whackos of one kind or another. I prefer the company of whackos who want to speak their piece, exercise their rights and be left alone, rather than that of whackos who want to wipe people off the planet because they're ideologues, or constipated, or whatever your, and the NWO's, problem is. And you completely ignored my point about how the bureaucracies in question are trying to bolster their credibility and gain bigger budgets. It's proven that the ATF called the media 24 hours in advance and told them to be ready to cover the story. Why? Their budget was up for review. That's why Waco happened so *dramatically*. The FBI has been PROVEN IN COURT to have FALSIFIED EVIDENCE in the Ruby Ridge trial. And now we all know they LIED TO AMERICA in the Waco hearings. They're trying to make themselves necessary; like any bully, they're trying to prove they're worth something by picking a fight. I'm ashamed of what the FBI has become, and I'll bet a lot of agents are too; they're just hanging in there, doing their personal best, steering clear of the totalitarian rot as best they can...

After you're hateful diatribe, I'm more than ever determined to stand in solidarity with these people. Talk all you want about the Inquisition - it's clear to everyone who the "inquistors" and who the "heretics" are in this situation.

-- Dr. Polymorph (Fedskillmore@thanfundiesdo.com), November 12, 1999.

(Hands thread off to Lurking and Paula)

WHEW! Thanks folks!

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 12, 1999.

GoldReal wrote: "In the Modern Scenario, my neighbors do not have to foot the bill by themselves. From a mere fraction of a cent of their tax money, both them and myself end up better off. "

Your neighbors in the Old Scenario did not HAVE to foot the bill at all. No one extorted taxes from them to aid in rebuilding your home. They helped because they were Christian, caring people, even if you weren't. Any indebtedness you felt would have been illusory, as they were under NO obligation to assist you in any way. They did so out of the goodness of their hearts.

"Your old thoughts and ideas do not fit modern society. You somehow have become stagnated, wishing to return to those nostalgic "good ol days" when the poor man was kept in his place by default of the system."

I wish to return to the 'good old days' when a man was allowed to keep what he earned, and not have his pocketbook looted by the government acting as the agent of his poorer brethren. Your "modern society" is a socialistic nightmare. Can you tell me, in one hundred words or less, why you have the right to take money from me against my will, that I do not owe to you, due to your own personal misfortune and for your own personal benefit? In the past, this was called "theft", I believe.

-- PKM (.@...), November 12, 1999.

GoldReal epitomizes the reason that this once great nation is doomed to Socialistic slavery.

He has no clue as to our foundings, he has no understanding of the basic principles of liberty.

He has bought (or has been brainwashed) the liberal notion that all good things come from government, and that charity is unfair and biased in it's distribution of charity.

What this stupid, ignorant, Clintonista-idiot refuses to realize is that all this "charity" comes from my pocket in confiscatory taxes that force both my wife and I to work, because one of us works to pay taxes alone.

What also nauseates me about this moron is this insidious notion that 'old notions' and 'old ideas' (ala the Constitution) do not fit our modern society. All done so that this imbecile can "feel" good about him/herself. This jackass' self-esteem is more important apparently than Liberty as defined in our founding documents.

I wish no part of your Liberal Socialistic Utopia GoldReal. I hold onto the Liberty that was bequeathed to me by a bunch of "religious old white intolerant slave owners". And I will defend it from idiots like you with EXTREME PREDJUDICE.

Get an education about our history shit-for-brains, and THINK for a change instead of "feeling".

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 12, 1999.

GoldReal said

>Today, the "unfortunate" man need not feel indebted to anyone for seeking a helping hand when he truly needs it because not everyone in the U.S. is RELIGIOUS and therefore should NOT be required to seek help ONLY from religious based organizations in times of need. It's called "choice", it's called SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE (blah blah blah)...

With this argument you betray a profound neurological dysfunction. The unfortunate "need not feel indebted to anyone" when he collects government aid? WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PAYING FOR IT? You left the taxpayer out of your Marxist equation, as is typical with liberals/cryptomarxists. They think people, and all that people own and earn, are ALREADY the property of government; collecting taxes is just a formality.

You hate Christianity, we know that. Good for you, you just keep it up until you get an anurism or an ulcer or something. But don't tell us that the government has a right to confiscate our wealth and redistribute it to the poor because of the non-establishment clause. Are you smoking crack? Also, the words "separation of church and state" DO NOT APPEAR IN THE CONSTITUTION. What you'll find in that document (the Supreme Law of Our Land) is that government shall pass no law effecting the establishment of religion (the much-abused "separation" phrase comes from one of the Supremes, if I'm not mistaken). Move heaven and earth, confiscate 50%, 80% - hell, why not ALL - of productive people's wealth, just so poor people can be protected from any contact with religious ideas? Doesn't this just put government in the role of the church? One ideology for another, with the result being more power concentrated in fewer hands - yeah, that's going to lead to more "choice." In a pig's eye...

-- Dr. Polymorph (Iknowmore@thanyoudo.com), November 12, 1999.

Better said than I, Dr. Polymorph.

Amen.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 13, 1999.

(YIKES!)

My last response tonight:

Dr. Polymorph,

If all religions got out of government, we would all be better off for it. This is how this country was originally set up to be. Seperation of Church and State. Jefferson and Adams insisted on it, and it was so.

I don't hate or condone physical harm to anyone, Christians included. We are all equal, in my eyes. Being alive is the only measure of human success that really counts. It's genetic. We who are alive are the direct result of our ancestor's successful genes. Everything else, such as material possessions and level of education, is just icing on the individual cake-of-success.

Still, if you can out think me while I'm alive and mentally healthy, I probably deserve whatever I receive, short of death.

In reply to:

"And you completely ignored my point about how the bureaucracies in question are trying to bolster their credibility and gain bigger budgets. It's proven that the ATF called the media 24 hours in advance and told them to be ready to cover the story. Why? Their budget was up for review. That's why Waco happened so *dramatically*. The FBI has been PROVEN IN COURT to have FALSIFIED EVIDENCE in the Ruby Ridge trial. And now we all know they LIED TO AMERICA in the Waco hearings. They're trying to make themselves necessary; like any bully, they're trying to prove they're worth something by picking a fight. I'm ashamed of what the FBI has become, and I'll bet a lot of agents are too; they're just hanging in there, doing their personal best, steering clear of the totalitarian rot as best they can... "

For the third time, if you would start a grass-roots effort and elect those people you feel would make the changes needed, then your problem with the FBI would be solved. Again, that's the way we do it in the United States. Why can't you comprehend this? It's basic and simple.

Read George Washington's "Farewell Address". He eloquently explains why "factions" such as yourself, are a threat to our government. You seek to impose YOUR will on the majority (who obviously feel secure as things are, else we wouldn't have re-elected Mr. Clinton and the Republican Congress to a second term.)

You, Sir, are attempting to dictate. You sir, are out of order. You sir don't seem to understand this basic point.

I have got to go now.

Peace.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 13, 1999.

Well, my nice long response just failed to post.

Anyway, to make it short, I don't hate anyone. Never have. Tried to once but I kept rationalizing from their point of view and ended up understanding how they came to do what they did.

Hey, want to change government leaders who decide who runs the FBI? Start a grass-roots effort and if it's what the people want, you'll be successful in getting your people elected to office. If not, then you are a minority, a "faction" (as G.W. put it in his Farewell Address) and doomed to feel "beaten on" by this democratically elected Republic form of government which still is, Of the People, By the People and For the People.

Learn to survive and thrive within the law. Even with all our ills (and yes I agree we have many), the U.S. is still #1 in my humble opinion.

Good Night.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 13, 1999.

Where in the original post can anyone point out to me that shows that this individual is even a Christian? I must be missing something, because I see nothing even remotely tied to the Christian faith in the post! The Christians I know would shudder at the way this person is perverting Christ's name AND HIS TEACHINGS!

To GoldReal-Thanks for the hand-off(he said sarcastically). BTW, the Vatican is Catholicism, not Christianity. IMO, Catholics put God above Jesus where the Christians are the opposite (before the flaming - I do not have a problem with that - EACH TO HIS OWN BELIEF). The Inquisition was a Catholic undertaking.

To Gregg-drug running by the Bush family? LOL! He ran the frigging country - why would he need Panama?

To Dr Polymorph-the government shall pass no law effecting the establishment of religion. That pretty much states that the USA will not side with any religion over another.

IMHO, there is only one God. BUT, this God takes on many manifestions to be accessible to many cultures, and the founding fathers recognized this.

I still say that Project Megiddo was created precisely to counteract the ideas of the orignal posters.

All other opinions are welcomed.

-- Lurking on the sidelines (Alw@ys lurking.com), November 13, 1999.

I meant to say "counteract the ideas of the original poster" not posters.

-- Lurking on the sidelines (Alw@ys lurking.com), November 13, 1999.

Lurking: You, are perhaps closer to the truth than you realize. In all cultures there is a "good" spirit and an "evil" spirit. I believe that so- called Christianity in this country has been so bastardized that our loving God and His majestic Son, Jesus weep at what has become of this great and blessed nation. The 501-3C churches are no more than tax collectors (tithes and offerings) for Satan. Remember, Satan is the "father of all lies". He has forgotten more versus from the Bible than you, I, or anyone else could ever remember. He has had the ages to learn the greed, fears, desires, and weaknesses of the masses he so passionately hates. He turns black into white, good into evil, right into wrong...but he does it ever so slowly.It's the "frog in the pot" theory. Most people are so empty, they will reach out for something to make them feel worthy, loved, a part of something greater than themselves. Unfortunately, God usually allows them their wishes...he gave us free will. I believe there are few in this world who truly believe in the Lord. If they did, we wouldn't be inundated with so much immorality, greed, and and disdain for human life. I no longer call myself a Christian, for I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and not in the religion of Christianity. Shepherd

-- shepherd (mjmmcinnes@aol.com), November 13, 1999.

PKM; I see you are signing .@... or something similar... I have to hand it to you fellow. You are consistent, on every thread where I have read your writing, I have concluded you are an ass. I am sorry that I feel that way, but you just seem to hate the system and anyone that disagrees with you. Have you ever sought counciling? Would you consider it? Would you consider it before or after your stupid ideas and behavior cause some soldier to shoot one of my kids?

-- Osiris (...@.......), November 13, 1999.

I try to stay out of political arguments as much as I can. However, the idiotic ultra-liberal spew issuing forth from GoldReal requires my response.

You sir, are a very dangerous person. One who believes that in government lies all solutions to all problems. I find that belief system offensive. Your kind is responsible for most of the damage to our family values, freedoms, and privacy. (And I won't even BEGIN to discuss our wallets.) I believe that you are quite young and idealistic, and your heart is in the right place, but your expectation of life-long government control of everyone's lives is naive at best.

I once believed as you do, before the objective reality of the cancerous, leprous government's behavior finally sunk in. FYI, I am a LIFELONG Democrat, and voted for Klinton TWICE. (I had my resons, now hush!) I also served in my Country's Armed Forces. (Did YOU?) I am, however, a realist, and have seen where we are headed.

(A short history lesson: The reason for the church/state issue in the Constitution was because the original colonists left England due to religious persecution. The attempt was made to make SURE that no government religion was to be established in the U.S. a la the Church of England, which was the only "government sanctioned" religion. Those who were not members were harshly sanctioned.)

I suggest you learn more about world and U.S. history. From the sound of your obvious ignorance, you are in DIRE need of further education. I suggest that you do NOT attempt to get it from a PUBLIC university...

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), November 13, 1999.

Osiris wrote:

"I have concluded you are an ass. I am sorry that I feel that way,"

You should.

"but you just seem to hate the system and anyone that disagrees with you."

Are you prepared to show me where I am being hateful? You cannot, for I hate no one and no thing. I love this country and what it stands for. It does need some minor repairs, in my opinion. You, on the other hand, seem to hate me because my ideas are not your ideas.

"Have you ever sought counciling? Would you consider it? Would you consider it before or after your stupid ideas and behavior cause some soldier to shoot one of my kids?"

You make no sense whatsoever with that statement. That my ideas could possibly cause such an event is ludicrous.

I suggest that you may want to try and get more sleep. Jangled nerves can lead to fuzzy thinking. Please try to relax.

-- PKM (.@...), November 13, 1999.

Change the laws or enact new ones you say? Ok, let us Califonians Pass Proposition 187. The people have spoken. Whats this? Our politicians bury it? But the majority have spoken. Too bad.

"For the people, by the people". I think not.

I LOVE the old argument "Move somewhere else if you don't like it". That's BULLSHIT. So every time a government does something I don't like I have to run and hide somewhere else? Of course, we TRY to change it, but our politicians BURY our changes. I LOVE what America was founded on. I do not love what America has become. I will stay here. I will fight. I will not hide. I will not give in.

I used to think EXACTLY as many of you. I used the EXACT same arguments. That is, until I too felt the wrath of this argument. Its unfortunate it took a personal eperience to wake me up. I hope the same does not have to happen to you.

-- Sorry (Not Today@But.Thanks), November 13, 1999.

I was brought up in the church. What I learned as a child and young adult will always be integral to who I am. However, because of who I am, I have always felt a need to discover "who said so?" I have therefor spent many years researching and reading about the history of Christianity. Today, as Christians, we are asked to accept all that is told to us as a matter of faith. I simply cannot do this -- I have much more respect for what has been given to me (I have belonged to the same UCC church for years and I drive the Reverend crazy). I am still searching for the truth, and I believe that my creator blesses me in my search. I must admit to a certain amount of irritation with my fellow Christians who have not truly studied and searched, and yet feel free to be so judgemental. Should I ever reach an end to my quest (something I doubt ever happening) it may be that I discover I'm meant to be a Bhuddist. It doesn't matter -- my faith lies quite securely in the knowledge that I am loved, that my journey home is supported, and that my arrival will be welcomed and rejoiced. The label does not matter. How I conduct myself in this life does matter. Do I reflect the love that I have been given, do I encourage others to find the way home? Have I been a good parent, spouse, neighbor, co-worker? Do I use my most precious God-given gift, my mind? For me, the rate of success in any of these areas is situational: sometimes I'm on it, sometime I'm not. But I try to use all experiences as an opportunity for learning, and I truly believe that this is what is expected of me. Any other expectation would be too cruel. With Aloha always, grngrl

-- grngrl (jhandt@gte.net), November 13, 1999.

Y2K has nothing to do with tired old middle eastern monotheistic CRAP. Go back to your crusades and witch burnings.

-- D E F (eattherich@mailcity.com), November 13, 1999.

DEF:

Perhaps some good old fashioned human sacrifices like the Druids, Aztecs, Inca, or any other number of pagan polytheistic CRAP religions practiced might be more to your liking.

If you're a militant atheist, perhaps sacraficing to the Gods of History, for the cause of socialism might be to your liking. After all, well over 100 million people have been sacrificed to appease its Molochs; far more than have been murdered in the name of Jesus, Yahweh, or Allah.

-- Bryan (BryanL@aol.com), November 13, 1999.

The preceding has probably been a public service of:

The Troll Bait and Tackle Shop.

If you'll notice, it was easy to get a heated argument going, think about the subject matter. Could this be a new ploy to destroy TB2000.

Regardless of what each of us believes, about our origins before birth and destinations after death, the fact is it is very easy to take advantage of those beliefs. And by take advantage I mean to incite bitter feelings against one another.

No religion or belief system is realistic, helpful or useful, if it first attempts to make others feel hateful and bitter. Even those who profess to believe in nothing, should not be allowed to violate the rights of others to be free of hate and bitterness in a situation where one's religion or beliefs system are concerned.

We need to find strength within ourselves and courage and compassion to face the future.

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 13, 1999.

PKM; Just reread. Gotta eat those words. You have not been hatefull. I hate eating words. Guess your thoughts on the thread about how dangerous our soldiers were going to be sort of colored my opinions of what I was reading here. You weren't hatefull there either. I took your comments there to fall right in line with SCARDY's here. As one of the veterans you so lightly insulted (on veteran's day) I guess I became a bit emotional... made your point as it were.

It is odd to me that your opinion (I assume you agreed with the topic letter of the thread) could lead to so much violence, you who came across as knowing so much about what it is to be a soldier. You who were so willing to generalize that so many soldiers not only were capable of following illegal orders, but had, and are now rationalizing; how will you rationalize the fruits of your combatative attitude at this early date? Just how will you convince yourself that the ideas you espouse here did not contribute to the problem and possibly hasten martial law?

You who are so defensive, so determined to 'stand in the door with your 12ga.' so they can't take your rights; you know the rights that some poor shmuck died for at Gettysburg, Batan, InChon, and hundreds of other God forsaken places all over this world; those rights, what are you going to do if your attitude at this point infulences some fifteen year old to climb a building and start taking potshots at my nephew who is on that street corner having coffee because some puke in Washington decided martial law was necessary?

So a puke in D.C. is might some day be responsible for putting our kids on the street to keep the peace... and you and those so quick to run to violence might one day be responsible for turning those kids against the people they are supposed to protect.

PKM, You are right. I did not detect hate when I reread your writings (mostly). It isn't hate I saw, it is a lack of understanding. Go to your TV today, look at the film streaming out of Turkey. Please be reminded that there are other ways to cause that kind of damage besides earthquakes.

The first amendment is there because it is an EVEN more powerfull weapon against tyranny and oppression than the gun. I do believe there are times and places to use weapons. I think encourgaing that at this very early stage of the problem is at best imprudent. To do so on a public forum is plain foolhardy, and surly indicates faulty logic elsewhere...

-- (...@.......), November 13, 1999.

...@..., I'm glad that you realized that there was no hatred in what I was saying, and I am truly sorry if my comments on the other thread offended you - they were not meant to. My whole argument on that other thread was that soldiers are people, and people can be swayed to do things that they normally would find abhorrent, in the stress of war. As to this thread, I find the original poster's comments rather paranoid, and was responding not to them, but to what I consider the very socialistic views being espoused by another respondent.

For the record, I never have, do not now, and never will espouse violence as a way to settle problems, whether they be with the government or with my neighbor. That is not what we are on this earth to accomplish. How you read this into my comments is unclear to me, and I believe you are reading more into my comments than is actually there.

-- PKM (.@....), November 13, 1999.

(was cut off) ...@..., in any event, I appreciate your sentiments, thank you for your response, and will make every effort to be more clear on my choice of words here.

-- PKM (.@...), November 13, 1999.

I sympathize with any and all threats to liberty, but I loathe violence of any kind. It is this kind of inflamatory rhetoric which will incite violence. Shame on you, whoever you are.

I have a funny feeling this _might_ even be an ".setup" kind of thing-- intentional or unintentional--which is being used by Big Brother to keep closer tabs on violent factions or individuals. If so, shame on you again! (If not, I may seem paranoid now, but wait 10-20 years! What we recognize as the 4th and 5th ammendments will likely be gone...)

Your piece of writing is, of course, free speech, protected by the First Ammendment. I fully support your right to say what you do, no matter how idiotic. But with rights come responsibilities, and your rant rings of extreme irresponsibility. The time now is for calm nerves to prevail and for us to lend ourselves to the care of family, friends, and neighbors rather than abstract and currently unwinnable causes.

As a libertarian, I object to the use of any and all force except as an absolute last resort. You are seeing tiny, scattered sparks and are doing everything possible to fan the flames. You are not doing anyone a service, least of all yourself. What you do will ultimately result in society as a whole being LESS free by the way the authorities will react.

Of course, if I am wrong, I apologize. However I hope you can live with yourself if you incite some troubled teenagers or mentally unstable people to shoot and harm other people (depriving of them of their OWN life and liberty). That will be a terrible burden on your conscience for the rest of your life, and a far more likely consequence than overthrowing some kind of phantom "NWO" threat.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), November 13, 1999.

I sympathize with any and all threats to liberty, but I loathe violence of any kind. It is this kind of inflamatory rhetoric which will incite violence. Shame on you, whoever you are.

Geez. Talk about flakey writing! This is not quite what I wanted to say! It should read "I sympathize with any and all VIGILANCE AGAINST threats to liberty..."

(walking away redfaced)

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), November 13, 1999.

PKM; Sir, I have misjudged you. Thank you as well. I shall endeavor to understand what I read a little better as well. May God Bless. -m-

-- (...@.......), November 13, 1999.

Lurking,

I wrote:

"Christianity has an independent state all to itself, it's called "Vatican City" and it's in Rome. Feel free to return there anytime you feel threatened here in the United States. I'm sure the Pope would love for you to reunite and come back home for good."

You replied:

"To GoldReal-Thanks for the hand-off(he said sarcastically). BTW, the Vatican is Catholicism, not Christianity. IMO, Catholics put God above Jesus where the Christians are the opposite (before the flaming - I do not have a problem with that - EACH TO HIS OWN BELIEF). The Inquisition was a Catholic undertaking."

My Answer:

Definition from "Oxford American Dictionary"

Catholic - adj, 1. Roman Catholic. 2. of all churches or Christians.

Catholics are Christians. Protestants are Christians. Protastants use to be Catholics until they split from the Roman Catholic Church due to differences in interpertation of the same scripture/doctrine they both believe in. They both read the same Bible. They both believe salvation comes only through Jesus.

As I stated, "I'm sure the Pope would love for you to reunite and come back home for good." This sentence, as well as the entire paragraph, is correct.

To Dennis,

You wrote:

"You sir, are a very dangerous person. One who believes that in government lies all solutions to all problems. I find that belief system offensive. Your kind is responsible for most of the damage to our family values, freedoms, and privacy."

My Response:

Dennis, define our form of government, if you can? You imply there is a disconnect between our government and the authority it has, which was instilled upon it by the people of the United States when the Constitution was ratified by a majority of the people in each of the 13 original states.

1) Government Officials = elected by the public

2) Public = you and I

"...in government lies all solutions to all problems." is fundamentally correct, seeing we the public make up the people in government and we the public solve all our problems. No one else is going to solve them for us, are they? Who do you suggest we get to try and figure out the best balance between the rights and freedoms of 260 million individual citizens, in contrast to the collective rights and freedoms of our 50 states as well as all our counties, cities, corporations, sole propritorships, schools, private property owners, individual families, etc.??? Someone other than us? A dictator maybe? No one lives in a vacuum. The isolationism you speak of has never existed and it doesn't exist now. Isolationism is a myth.

No, you're either uneducated in American Government (could be remedied by taking and passing an American Government Class), or you're just a spoiled brat who pouts when you don't get your way (which can only be remedied by time and wisdom.)

It saddens me to see so many of our citizens ignorant as to how our stystem of government functions.

Our government leaders were elected by a majority vote of the citizens who chose to take the time to vote. You may disagree with the decisions made by our elected leaders, you may have voted for the losing candidate(s), you may have not voted at all, which are all your rights, but to imply our government and we the citizens are not one-in-the-same is just flat incorrect.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 13, 1999.

>>>>Christianity has as much (if not more) blood on its hands as any other self-righteous group. Need I remind you of the Aztecs, American Indians, Witches, and more recently, the Kosovo Albanian Muslims that Christianity attempted to "ethnically cleanse" from these people's OWN HOMELANDS.

Poor Goldreal. She thinks Christians are worse than the Aztecs, who sacrificed their own people, and cannabilistically ate their enemies. Most of the American Indians ARE Christians, and have been for at least a couple hundred years. What about the Christians that the Albanians systematically 'ethnically cleanesed' for the previous 60 years, and 200 years before that?

I guess Goldreal prefers the leftist atheistic Communists in China and the Soviet Union, who have slain tens of millions of humans over the last few decades. Similar abuses were seen by the non-Christian Nazis of Hitler, and during the Reign of Terror. Not to mention Pol Pott and other non-Christian Marxist murderers. What's the best she has to compare?

I'd say her Leftist Liberal forces have killed hundreds of times as many people as Christians over the years. Especially if the best she can throw on the other scale is the roughly 300 (yes, 300 total) people killed by the Inquisition over the course of three centuries. The Inquisition was a tamer event than previously believed, laden as it has been with Englsh anti-Spanish and anti-Papist propoganda. Read any recent study, even one by an atheist.

-- Laughing (ScuseMe@nemo.com), November 14, 1999.

GoldReal,

I'll take that American History class when you do... (YOU may want to add a WORLD history clss to your schedule as well).

They have "elections" by the "people" in Iraq, Communist China, and North Korea as well. Guess who "wins"....

Your ignorance as to the manipulation of the "public" by those in power (both in the U.S. and the rest of the world) is manifest. I feel sorry for you. What a shame that you suffer from total reality disconnect.

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), November 14, 1999.